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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe

USA
285 Posts

Posted - 25 Aug 2020 :  05:51:40  Show Profile  Visit Storyteller Hero's Homepage Send Storyteller Hero a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
So...I've been throwing around a theory that the Dead Three are still fully fledged deities and that their "quasi-divine mortal forms" on Faerun are actually avatars; the mortal avatars are possibly a restriction that Ao has placed upon the deities of Realmspace - one limited mortal avatar projection per deity to limit their ability to endanger the Cosmic Balance while in the mortal realms.

Mystra's physical appearance in Spellstorm is a clue that the deities are still able to send avatars at will.

During the WOTC interview with Chris Perkins, he denoted that it was the Dead Three's "choice" - knowing the lore, Bane especially would not give up everything that he has worked for in the Outer Planes just to personally lead a cult on a single continent. The sacrifice mentioned in the interview could then refer to the limit on the number of avatars that any deity can project, and the risk of what happens to the main body should an avatar be destroyed.

Ed Greenwood has just tweeted some new weight to the speculation, revealing that Bahamut still wanders Faerun in the guise of an old man. I don't believe that the Platinum Dragon would abandon his divine realm and faithful in the Heavens just to satisfy his wanderlust. This must be an avatar. When asked about the Dead Three in an earlier tweet, the great sage managed to give an answer that begs more questions, without revealing the actual state of the divine realms of the Dead Three.

https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1298108424887119872







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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6303 Posts

Posted - 25 Aug 2020 :  08:54:52  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Does it matter?

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
35570 Posts

Posted - 25 Aug 2020 :  10:51:29  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My theory is that they're not deities at all.

Okay, yeah, sure, "all" the deities came back (for certain values of all). But it just doesn't make sense that the Dead Three chose to be demoted to avatars, and it similarly doesn't make sense that they and they alone have avatars running about.

So my thinking is that the "return" of the fallen deities isn't "okay, here's the power and portfolios you once had, had fun" -- instead it's "okay, you're on the bottom rung of divine power, and it's up to you to move up."

Even that's problematic, but it's less problematic than the "hey, you've been replaced, but you're back anyway" approach that was apparently taken.

So the Dead Three came back as just barely divine avatars, and decided they were going to follow Myrkul's earlier example and have fun not being subject to the limitations of deities. The avatars are all they are -- the "choice" to be demoted was PR spun by their churches.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
35570 Posts

Posted - 25 Aug 2020 :  11:01:18  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually, here's another theory I just came up with:

The divine roster hasn't changed at all. None of the dead deities are back.

The avatars of the Dead Three are avatars of Cyric, active as a way of keeping him relevant.

Any other "returned" deities are just aspects of the deities that replaced them -- they each decided if Cyric could do play that card, they could, too. But since they're not locked away, they didn't have to go the avatar route.

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sleyvas
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USA
10851 Posts

Posted - 25 Aug 2020 :  14:06:06  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero

So...I've been throwing around a theory that the Dead Three are still fully fledged deities and that their "quasi-divine mortal forms" on Faerun are actually avatars; the mortal avatars are possibly a restriction that Ao has placed upon the deities of Realmspace - one limited mortal avatar projection per deity to limit their ability to endanger the Cosmic Balance while in the mortal realms.

Mystra's physical appearance in Spellstorm is a clue that the deities are still able to send avatars at will.

During the WOTC interview with Chris Perkins, he denoted that it was the Dead Three's "choice" - knowing the lore, Bane especially would not give up everything that he has worked for in the Outer Planes just to personally lead a cult on a single continent. The sacrifice mentioned in the interview could then refer to the limit on the number of avatars that any deity can project, and the risk of what happens to the main body should an avatar be destroyed.

Ed Greenwood has just tweeted some new weight to the speculation, revealing that Bahamut still wanders Faerun in the guise of an old man. I don't believe that the Platinum Dragon would abandon his divine realm and faithful in the Heavens just to satisfy his wanderlust. This must be an avatar. When asked about the Dead Three in an earlier tweet, the great sage managed to give an answer that begs more questions, without revealing the actual state of the divine realms of the Dead Three.

https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1298108424887119872




Yeah, the idea that the gods can't project avatars into the world anymore was silly, because we all knew that it was going to happen. Now, the idea of "what is an avatar" is a question well worth questioning. Is it the all powerful entities we saw in F&A and P&P that can be created and destroyed on a whim? Is it a construct of "godflesh" made with magic that a god can inhabit like a person driving a car, possibly even created by the process that created Alias? Is it a "I'm sharing my soul with a mortal's flesh, but I'm driving" that was what I refer to as a "Lesser Avatar" from the ToT era? Is it more of a "I'm a vestige who is riding in a mortal, but the mortal still has control and I'm whispering to him directly"? All of these can work, and perhaps different gods have different levels of access that they can perform.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 25 Aug 2020 14:06:55
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1396 Posts

Posted - 25 Aug 2020 :  14:57:35  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
WotC wrote themselves into a corner and now everyone's trying to justify it with lore.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that it's not even interesting lore; Bahamut's Gandalf look has been around since his Monster Mythology incarnation.

It's a damned shame too, because the gods-who-were-once-mortal are easily the most interesting bunch, but they're turned into two-dimensional caricatures.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
10851 Posts

Posted - 25 Aug 2020 :  15:24:32  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

WotC wrote themselves into a corner and now everyone's trying to justify it with lore.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that it's not even interesting lore; Bahamut's Gandalf look has been around since his Monster Mythology incarnation.

It's a damned shame too, because the gods-who-were-once-mortal are easily the most interesting bunch, but they're turned into two-dimensional caricatures.



Even earlier IF you figure that "Bahamut" is essentially Paladine, and thus the wandering god equates to being Fizban the Fabulous (not necessarily the case, but...). I get people not wanting to have the PC's overshadowed by a god, but writing in some rule that the gods can't come down at all is a bit of a push. Its just been an established storytelling theme since at least ancient greece that the gods might visit in an unlikely form to pass on knowledge, etc... They just need some "reason" that just doesn't need to be fully spelled out as to why they don't do it constantly (i.e. perhaps it takes a lot of power, perhaps the other gods will be likely to work against them, perhaps when they extend themselves to the world they leave their divine realm in jeopardy because they breach their own security, etc...). Of course, I say "it doesn't need to be spelled out" and I know at the same time that we'd all throw out theories as to why that might be until someone came up with something people liked. Its just the nature of the beast.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
35570 Posts

Posted - 25 Aug 2020 :  15:43:00  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

WotC wrote themselves into a corner and now everyone's trying to justify it with lore.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that it's not even interesting lore; Bahamut's Gandalf look has been around since his Monster Mythology incarnation.

It's a damned shame too, because the gods-who-were-once-mortal are easily the most interesting bunch, but they're turned into two-dimensional caricatures.



I, personally, thought Myrkul was most interesting as a former deity animating the Crown of Horns. For me, Myrkul as a deity was a two-dimensional caricature, but making him an intelligent artifact opened up a lot more possibilities.

It's part of the reason that if I ever take a shot at being a DM, it's going to be in a mixed 2E/3E time frame.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 25 Aug 2020 15:48:24
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2147 Posts

Posted - 25 Aug 2020 :  18:36:54  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My guess is that this matters less for Bahamut, who is a multispheric power (and he is even a greater power in at least two worlds), so if lost his Torilian aspect, while a great setback isn't not a total loss (he still has other aspects and his essence will survive); than to deities like the Dead Three* that only exist in Toril. If they are killed there, they cease to exist, so being forced to become avatars it's a great risk.

So, for Bahamut pleasing Ao to influence Toril is not as stupid as the Dead Three doing it. And as LordofBones pointed out, it's something that Bahamut has been doing since always.



*With perhaps the exception of Bane, who may be multispheric if we assume he and Bane (Achra) are one and the same, something that we don't know.

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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe

USA
285 Posts

Posted - 25 Aug 2020 :  20:05:45  Show Profile  Visit Storyteller Hero's Homepage Send Storyteller Hero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Does it matter?

-- George Krashos




It matters to me. I try to keep my lore projects on DMsGuild as compatible or adaptable with the current canon state of the setting as I can without throwing out the lore of previous editions, so I make updates based on new published lore and clues that I can pick up from authors.

Trying to make sense of it all and consolidate the myths without knowing the unknown truths behind the GREAT WALL OF NDA is a challenge that I'm trying to tackle as a Community Creator.

At the very least, it's been pretty fun in the attempts so far.



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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
35570 Posts

Posted - 25 Aug 2020 :  20:21:07  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Does it matter?

-- George Krashos




It matters to me. I try to keep my lore projects on DMsGuild as compatible or adaptable with the current canon state of the setting as I can without throwing out the lore of previous editions, so I make updates based on new published lore and clues that I can pick up from authors.

Trying to make sense of it all and consolidate the myths without knowing the unknown truths behind the GREAT WALL OF NDA is a challenge that I'm trying to tackle as a Community Creator.

At the very least, it's been pretty fun in the attempts so far.






You've chosen quite the challenge, there... I think the current design team is being as vague as they possibly can, on as much as they possibly can, just to leave themselves the maximum amount of wiggle room possible. I've begun to think of it as Schrodinger's Realms, now: "Is this thing X or Y? Both! Neither! Whatever!"

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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe

USA
285 Posts

Posted - 25 Aug 2020 :  20:48:40  Show Profile  Visit Storyteller Hero's Homepage Send Storyteller Hero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Does it matter?

-- George Krashos




It matters to me. I try to keep my lore projects on DMsGuild as compatible or adaptable with the current canon state of the setting as I can without throwing out the lore of previous editions, so I make updates based on new published lore and clues that I can pick up from authors.

Trying to make sense of it all and consolidate the myths without knowing the unknown truths behind the GREAT WALL OF NDA is a challenge that I'm trying to tackle as a Community Creator.

At the very least, it's been pretty fun in the attempts so far.






You've chosen quite the challenge, there... I think the current design team is being as vague as they possibly can, on as much as they possibly can, just to leave themselves the maximum amount of wiggle room possible. I've begun to think of it as Schrodinger's Realms, now: "Is this thing X or Y? Both! Neither! Whatever!"



With the current state of WotC's lore obfuscation, online communities like this, where obscure references and scholarly discussions are bread and butter of everyday discourse, are a godsend.







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TheIriaeban
Senior Scribe

USA
908 Posts

Posted - 25 Aug 2020 :  21:42:59  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero

It matters to me. I try to keep my lore projects on DMsGuild as compatible or adaptable with the current canon state of the setting as I can without throwing out the lore of previous editions, so I make updates based on new published lore and clues that I can pick up from authors.

Trying to make sense of it all and consolidate the myths without knowing the unknown truths behind the GREAT WALL OF NDA is a challenge that I'm trying to tackle as a Community Creator.

At the very least, it's been pretty fun in the attempts so far.






You've chosen quite the challenge, there... I think the current design team is being as vague as they possibly can, on as much as they possibly can, just to leave themselves the maximum amount of wiggle room possible. I've begun to think of it as Schrodinger's Realms, now: "Is this thing X or Y? Both! Neither! Whatever!"



There you go, they are in a Quantum Divine State. Both mortal and gods at the same time. You only get to see which version you get based on how and when you interact with them.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6303 Posts

Posted - 26 Aug 2020 :  10:23:30  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Does it matter?

-- George Krashos




It matters to me. I try to keep my lore projects on DMsGuild as compatible or adaptable with the current canon state of the setting as I can without throwing out the lore of previous editions, so I make updates based on new published lore and clues that I can pick up from authors.

Trying to make sense of it all and consolidate the myths without knowing the unknown truths behind the GREAT WALL OF NDA is a challenge that I'm trying to tackle as a Community Creator.

At the very least, it's been pretty fun in the attempts so far.




It's mythology. It's not meant to make sense or provide absolute answers.

You want to write a cool (and likely high-selling) DMs Guild product on the gods? Pick a deity, go into extreme detail re its priesthood, worshippers, temples, shrines, miracles, holy holidays, religious festivals, prayers, observances, dress, sects, important figures, unique sayings/spells/items, relics and dress it up with some accompanying crunch to add to anyone's game.

If you did that to any of the Dead Three it would have far more use, popularity and effect than musing whether they are avatars or not for a single line in a broad, top down look at "the gods".

Just my 2cp.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
5805 Posts

Posted - 26 Aug 2020 :  22:08:23  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Got bored of reading RAS novels so thought I might take a break and do a church of myrkul bit of research as it is massively undetailed.

I'm getting a bit of a kingmaker vibe from the myrkulites, offering their knowledge of the dead and undead to those seeking lichdom, while staying firmly in the background.

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CorellonsDevout
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USA
2637 Posts

Posted - 27 Aug 2020 :  00:31:38  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
They want to start a boy band called "The Dead Three" XD.

Okay, in all seriousness, I'm wondering if they're somehow trying to "bend the rules" (wouldn't be the first time). Ao restored the Tablets of Fate, and, iirc, mandated that deities could no longer steal each other's portfolios. Maybe the Dead Three are trying to "test the waters", so to speak, by walking the world as avatars. I'm not sure what their goal would be, but it's only a matter of time before they get up to mischief.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2147 Posts

Posted - 27 Aug 2020 :  00:43:29  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Their goals and stuff will surely be revealed in Baldur's Gate 3. This "demotion to demigod" was done for the plot of this game, IIRC.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1396 Posts

Posted - 27 Aug 2020 :  11:37:16  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Larian isn't exactly known for their writing chops.
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Demzer
Senior Scribe

815 Posts

Posted - 27 Aug 2020 :  11:50:26  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

They want to start a boy band called "The Dead Three" XD.



Already done, but in our world:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tre_Allegri_Ragazzi_Morti
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe

595 Posts

Posted - 28 Aug 2020 :  21:56:53  Show Profile Send Mirtek a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Actually, here's another theory I just came up with:

The divine roster hasn't changed at all. None of the dead deities are back.

The avatars of the Dead Three are avatars of Cyric, active as a way of keeping him relevant.

Any other "returned" deities are just aspects of the deities that replaced them -- they each decided if Cyric could do play that card, they could, too. But since they're not locked away, they didn't have to go the avatar route.

I still say that Bane never came back at all. Cyric murdered Xvim and played the whole return of Bane thing as a giant deception to avoid too much backslash
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
35570 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2020 :  02:27:48  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Actually, here's another theory I just came up with:

The divine roster hasn't changed at all. None of the dead deities are back.

The avatars of the Dead Three are avatars of Cyric, active as a way of keeping him relevant.

Any other "returned" deities are just aspects of the deities that replaced them -- they each decided if Cyric could do play that card, they could, too. But since they're not locked away, they didn't have to go the avatar route.

I still say that Bane never came back at all. Cyric murdered Xvim and played the whole return of Bane thing as a giant deception to avoid too much backslash



You're close to the truth. The truth is that Bane never came back -- Xvim is masquerading as Bane.

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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1582 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2020 :  09:44:16  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Side note Auril is also wondering the realms in Mortal Forms and is the key villian of the next AP.

And of course Nobinion is still on Toril, the Mulhorandi Pantheon is too, Gilgeam, perhaps several Drow Gods, Lolth made a personal appearance in the last book series, ect..., so this could really use more clarity.

Oh side note if Bahumut aka Marduk is running around Faerun, with the return of Enlil, Gilgeam, Nana-Sin (sort of), plus Tiamat, Hoar, and most likely Ishtar and Ramman (because Anhur and Isis held either manifestations, so their return would likely be a package deal), we are seeing the first stages of the reimergence of the Unther Pantheon.
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1396 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2020 :  15:45:50  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Actually, here's another theory I just came up with:

The divine roster hasn't changed at all. None of the dead deities are back.

The avatars of the Dead Three are avatars of Cyric, active as a way of keeping him relevant.

Any other "returned" deities are just aspects of the deities that replaced them -- they each decided if Cyric could do play that card, they could, too. But since they're not locked away, they didn't have to go the avatar route.

I still say that Bane never came back at all. Cyric murdered Xvim and played the whole return of Bane thing as a giant deception to avoid too much backslash



You're close to the truth. The truth is that Bane never came back -- Xvim is masquerading as Bane.



This could actually be fun.

Xvim knows he needs legitimacy and a power base, and as far as evil deities go, when you think of someone who isn't cray-cray, it's Bane. So Xvim needs Dad back in some form or another, only Pops is legitimately gone.

So, with Bane nowhere to be found (and consulting the Crown of Horns just ends up with Myrkul spouting cryptic philosophy at him), Xvim decides that if he can't bring back Bane, he'll become Bane.

Only that's not how it works.

Now Xvim's mind is haunted by memories that aren't his as the world corrects itself, and he no longer knows if he is Xvim-Who-Became-Bane or He-Who-Was-Always-Bane.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
35570 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2020 :  16:53:36  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There is some actual support for the Xvim is Bane theory, though -- even taken all together -- it's not at all conclusive.

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Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2147 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2020 :  19:04:00  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You're close to the truth. The truth is that Bane never came back -- Xvim is masquerading as Bane.



Nope. In fact, Achra just killed Xvim and took Bane's place as... well, Bane. After all, he is also a Bane

At least, that's how I did in my Realms, and also explains why the current Bane acts differently than the pre-ToT Bane.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe

595 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2020 :  21:07:08  Show Profile Send Mirtek a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

Side note Auril is also wondering the realms in Mortal Forms and is the key villian of the next AP.

And of course Nobinion is still on Toril, the Mulhorandi Pantheon is too, Gilgeam, perhaps several Drow Gods, Lolth made a personal appearance in the last book series, ect..., so this could really use more clarity.

Oh side note if Bahumut aka Marduk is running around Faerun, with the return of Enlil, Gilgeam, Nana-Sin (sort of), plus Tiamat, Hoar, and most likely Ishtar and Ramman (because Anhur and Isis held either manifestations, so their return would likely be a package deal), we are seeing the first stages of the reimergence of the Unther Pantheon.


Sekolah is also said to dwell on the prime IIRC
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