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Qilintha
Seeker
76 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Aug 2020 : 22:32:26
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In Draconomicon it's often referred that some dragons research new spells and that since dragon magic is different,although an human wizard could create versions of the same spells those spells would be much harder to cast ( An higher spell level). So my first question is why dragon magic is different, has it ever been addressed this question before?
Second question, considering this game is called Dungeons and Dragons...and dragons and giants ruled the whole Toril for...quite a while, there are basically no canon artifact items made by dragons. The only one I could find, from a Dragon Magazine is Jharakkan's talon. Am I missing some of them? Just to understand a little better what kind of artifacts they'd create.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2020 : 22:41:54
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The Draconomicon states rather openly that spellcasting dragons are generally more intelligent than spellcasting humans, or at least more focussed and intense and confident and ruthless in their approach to magic. And that dragons are magical creatures, naturally attuned to magic, able to instinctively perceive and manipulate it in ways beyond the sensibilities of mere humans. And that they can subconsciously(?) access primal racial archetype lore which is far more ancient than the human race's origins.
You can be sure that dragons have indeed produced many magical spells, items, and artifacts. They're not widely prevalent because dragons hoard things rather jealously and because human-centric Realmslore doesn't interact with ancient dragons very lightly. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2020 : 22:55:07
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| Just to throw out there as an option... Dragons ARE intensely magical and able to cast spells. However, they may have problems instilling that magic into objects outside of themselves. This isn't canon mind you, and I would never make it be that they CAN'T make items, but they may find "giving up the power into an item" almost as alien as "giving up some of my hoard".... especially since creating magic items would require them to actually spend money from their hoards (i.e. making magic items isn't cheap). As a result, dragons may not have ever delved into item creation as much as lesser races who have more of a problem surviving without items to help them. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2020 : 00:09:59
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Because dragon magic (at least in earlier editions) was innate and they didn't actually have class levels in "magic user" or "wizard" - they just had the ability to cast a certain number of spells of varying levels per day depending on dragon type and age. As such, their spells were unique to each dragon and they would take standard arcane spells and "dragonize" them into forms they could cast. These (in the old days) all had a casting time of "1" and were mostly verbal. Read through Ed's "Wyrms of the North" article series to get an idea of how dragon spellcasting works in the Realms.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2020 : 00:50:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The Draconomicon states rather openly that spellcasting dragons are generally more intelligent than spellcasting humans, or at least more focussed and intense and confident and ruthless in their approach to magic. And that dragons are magical creatures, naturally attuned to magic, able to instinctively perceive and manipulate it in ways beyond the sensibilities of mere humans. And that they can subconsciously(?) access primal racial archetype lore which is far more ancient than the human race's origins.
You can be sure that dragons have indeed produced many magical spells, items, and artifacts. They're not widely prevalent because dragons hoard things rather jealously and because human-centric Realmslore doesn't interact with ancient dragons very lightly.
I'd go with this.
Krash is right in that dragons generally don't have classes -- but we do know of some few dragons that have gone that route. So I'd assume that there have been draconic magic items -- but they were few (relatively) and not always recognized as such by humans*. And the ones that do exist have been highly prized by dragons.
*Maybe they don't register as magic unless used by a dragon, or they take a different form when not used by a dragon... I imagine that various types of rings would be most frequently employed. These rings that would resize, or be mistaken as torcs or circlets by humans, and thus humans wouldn't recognize that they were holding something draconic in origin. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2020 : 02:00:20
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| I imagine that the concept of gem magic (the storing of spells in gems, that can be later released upon certain conditions that are preset or destruction of the gem) was possibly a draconic invention as well. Scrolls, potions, clothing, Wands, staves, weapons, armor, magic vehicles, etc... are a humanoid mindset for the most part. I could picture them though having constructs, undead guardians created through magic, etc... There might be some who might make draconic armor or enhancements to claws, etc.... but probably not so many. I can see some who might create a magic item that allows them to change the energy type of their breath weapon. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Qilintha
Seeker
76 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2020 : 02:03:45
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Thanks all for the answers :) I read the Draconomicon but my mind was wondering in somehow the Dragons having a different approach to the Weave than humans but I like Ayrik and Wooly's idea. About the artifacts I love the idea how artifacts wandering around unknowningly, it works perfectly for the idea I was having that involves Kalzareinad (Keeper of Dark Wonders or Keeper of Dark Secrets) , a small cult of dragons ( A green dragon, a black dragon descendant of Jharakkan and a purple dragon , offspring of Maldraedior) looking for draconic artifacts and spells to unleash on Toril in Kalzareinad name,like a sort of ritual that would bring the dead god back to life.
I was also thinking that different colours would probably create different magic items/ artifacts.
Green: Mostly divination and enchantment stuff as they are the most secret hungry and the more manipulators
Black :Necromancy?
Blue:Illusion
White:I have no clue
Red : Evocation?
I had the idea for an artifact: A gem/circlet that could absorb a dragon breath and store it inside and it could have several uses:
Defensive: With a swift action it can counter the breath weapon of a dragon of up the same age category or if the element is opposite to the wearer's up to two age categories less than the dragon.
Trap: Contingency activated (Since it might damage the hoard usually the condition was often the wyrm's death ) when condition activates it releases a burst for 10 ft for age category of the same power of the breath weapon.
Also the breath storage must be done willingly, if empty it can't be used to shield someone from the breath weapon of a dragon. |
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Qilintha
Seeker
76 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2020 : 02:06:28
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I imagine that the concept of gem magic (the storing of spells in gems, that can be later released upon certain conditions that are preset or destruction of the gem) was possibly a draconic invention as well. Scrolls, potions, clothing, Wands, staves, weapons, armor, magic vehicles, etc... are a humanoid mindset for the most part. I could picture them though having constructs, undead guardians created through magic, etc... There might be some who might make draconic armor or enhancements to claws, etc.... but probably not so many. I can see some who might create a magic item that allows them to change the energy type of their breath weapon.
Yeah I was avoiding weapons and armors for sure...maybe wands, staves and jewelry as they use those more often^^ Also I was thinking they could also enchant items of particular importance to them. Particuarly beautiful items or trophies. Taking as an example Jharakkan's talon...maybe that black talon was from a creature the black dragon killed? |
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Qilintha
Seeker
76 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2020 : 02:57:22
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| I'll bump my own thread asking once again for an advice, was thinking as another draconic artifact made by Jharakkan ( A mask maybe) that would allow the dragon to be able to unleash their frightful presence even while in human form( with some other powers) and since I liked the idea of some magical items coming from trophies of powerful creatures killed by the wyrm...what kind of creature you think would work? Metallic dragon, linnorms, something else? |
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
297 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2020 : 03:45:37
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On the question about dragon magic being different: the answer is dragon magic mostly has no components. No verbal, no somatic and just about never material. This gets a note in lists of dragon magic spells. It's also noted in the Dragons of the North articles at least once. Also there is the bit of the metagame problem of scale. In a dragon vs dragon game you'd have spells like 'ice cage' that could cage a 200 foot long dragon; but to a human that massive ice cage could effect an army. And you get the same problem in reverse with you look at all the human sized spells for dragons: a spell that makes a ten foot sphere ice cage would only effect like the tip of a dragons tail.
The Realms has few dragon magic items mostly as the dragon empires were long ago...tens of thousands of years. Almost everything from so long ago was destroyed over time. And in general dragons don't "wear" too many items.
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2020 : 06:16:38
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Dragons seem to prefer emphasizing their strengths more than compensating for their weaknesses.
So they'd probably want magics which make their breath weapons bigger and badder, able to inflict more damage to more targets. Which make their teeth and claws able to rend things otherwise impenetrable. To make their flight faster. To make their healthy gleaming coat look more magnificent.
They'd probably not bother with changing their breath weapon into that of another ("lesser") draconic species. They'd probably not bother to make their hides more impervious vs attack. They'd probably not bother with slowing their targets. They'd probably not bother with charm when they could dominate.
Each draconic species (colour) has a distinct psychology with fixed (and predictable) values.
Individual deviants are rare - they apparently do occur (although lore, novels, and adventures seem to strictly adhere to "expected" behaviours from each type), but are then shunned or hunted by their own kind. |
[/Ayrik] |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2020 : 12:16:11
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I prefer to think of dragons as being collectively the most arrogant creatures to inhabit the FR. They believe, and with good reason, that they are stronger, tougher, faster, and more empowered than any other sapient mortal being they have or ever will encounter. What would they need tools for if the twitching of their limbs can pull their bodies into the air while unleashing gale-force winds, excavate deep pits of rock & soil through which they burrow at speed, and torpedo under the seas causing great wakes in their passing? And then they have a range of superpowers that either enhance or grant whole new abilities that further elevate the dragon as the apex predator. Creating magical devices for one's own use would be tantamount to admitting weakness, and what proud dragon would ever admit to being weak at anything?
While nearly all of the magic items detailed in the FR setting were made for small to medium sized humanoids because the games & stories assumed such as protagonists, there is another setting specific reason. Humanoids need tools to offset their many weaknesses - armors to protect our sensitive skins, weapons to compensate for our lack of claws & fangs, implements to leverage our lack of mass against great burdens, aids to enhance our limited senses, and that is before I even mention the magical innovations. With a host of artifices the limitations of just being humanoid were either compensated for or mitigated against the inherently more powerful natural & unnatural threats of the FR. Even the selective domestication & breeding of animals were employed to add muscle to strenuous tasks, speed to long distance travel, specialized vermin eradication to protect abodes, and perceptive sentries during the most vulnerable times of dormancy.
Of the magic items that are for dragons there seems to be a recurring theme of items made by non-dragons for use by dragons. While the Cult of the Dragon may be the modern lobbyists gifting such items to dragons, items from the past may also pop-up from the time of dragon kingdoms populated by humanoid slaves worshiping their draconic overlords. While it is tempting to think like our tactical Terran human selves in trying to modify draconic abilities, the superior dragons might be terribly offended to enraged that lesser beings dared think their powers were not great enough that they would need artificial crutches. Proper tribute would more likely take the form of things that would satisfy the passions of a dragon, delight its senses, or flatter its vainglorious sense of self-esteem (i.e., a dragon mirror which is a 5ft polished brass oval that will show the dragon's live image from any angle zoomed in as close as 1ft to zoomed out 100ft distant allowing a dragon to admire itself as others would see it). |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2020 : 17:45:28
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| Take a look at the dragon magic 3.5e product as well, I think it has some magic items for dragons. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Draconic magic and artifacts
