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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11692 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Jul 2020 : 12:55:49
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Dinin? Wasn't he the elder brother that slew the eldest brother? How did he come back? (I thought he'd been turned into a drider or something -- though it's been many years since I touched any of those books)
Yes, Dinin was the secondborn male of the Do'Urden household, who killed Nalfein so that he could be elderboy. Vierna turned Dinin into a drider, but in Relentless, all the drow who were ever driderfied were brought from Lolth's domain into the Prime to assist Zhindia in her surface conquest. All of these driders were turned back into drow by Quenthel and Yvonnel 2.0 with the assistance of the memories of Yvonnel 1.0, and among them was Dinin.
Wait, I'm reading this and trying to make sense o what happened... so every drow EVER created were brought to the prime material and then turned back into drow? I'm going to assume that this only applies to FR driders, but does this essentially mean no more driders on Toril at all? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2020 : 14:08:58
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Dinin? Wasn't he the elder brother that slew the eldest brother? How did he come back? (I thought he'd been turned into a drider or something -- though it's been many years since I touched any of those books)
Yes, Dinin was the secondborn male of the Do'Urden household, who killed Nalfein so that he could be elderboy. Vierna turned Dinin into a drider, but in Relentless, all the drow who were ever driderfied were brought from Lolth's domain into the Prime to assist Zhindia in her surface conquest. All of these driders were turned back into drow by Quenthel and Yvonnel 2.0 with the assistance of the memories of Yvonnel 1.0, and among them was Dinin.
Wait, I'm reading this and trying to make sense o what happened... so every drow EVER created were brought to the prime material and then turned back into drow? I'm going to assume that this only applies to FR driders, but does this essentially mean no more driders on Toril at all?
It was a bunch of Driders from the Drow afterlife, not all Driders, not all Driders in the afterlife either. There would still be Driders in other parts of the underdark and the in the demonweb pits. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2020 : 18:42:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
6) The descriptions of all the metaphysical aspects (Entreri in the cocoon, Drizzt and Afafrenfere ascending, etc.) were amazing.
Amazing, but a bit out of place. I'll give a snippet from the review I made about this:
The “one with everything” concept was neat in some ways. I also liked Yvonnel’s declaration that souls were energy, and thus could not be destroyed. This is something I have thought about, myself. When you become “one with everything”, you, from my understanding, do not entirely lose a sense of self, but become part of a greater whole. Reminds me somewhat of the Planescape model, in which a petitioner eventually either becomes one with their god or plane, but maintains a sense of identity. It’s a “perfected form”, one could say. But where does this leave the realm of the gods? The souls from the dagger were released into the multiverse (I was vaguely reminded of His Dark Materials and Earthsea here), but what Afa experienced was also a place between life and death. It was a bit confusing, and maybe it was meant to be, but that also meant it was a bit frustrating. I would have loved these scenes to be longer, but they were all crammed in at the end.
We also have the appearance of Charon/Sharon, an entity who has appeared occasionally in the Realms before, but isn’t too prominent. In this scene, a binary, Judeo-Christian take on heaven and hell is given (granted, this could be metaphorical, but to me, it seemed to be both). As there are many options for an afterlife in the Realms, one could see this as a simplification of the “heavenly” realms (Celestia, Arvandor, House of Nature, etc), and more “hellish” realms (Banehold, the Abyss, the Nine Hells themselves, etc), or if it really was a heaven/hell as western readers would understand it. If it’s the latter, then that begs the question of whether this was Bob being Bob, or if WotC/Hasbro is making moves to further simplify the cosmology. There has been talk of removing alignment, at least with mortals, and so maybe your fate is based on choices—but, that was already true, as you went to the realm—and god---that was best aligned with your ethics. I am all for redemption arcs, but Entreri was already heading in that direction. It felt rushed—in fact, much of the last quarter of the book felt rushed.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2020 : 01:45:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
It was a bunch of Driders from the Drow afterlife, not all Driders, not all Driders in the afterlife either. There would still be Driders in other parts of the underdark and the in the demonweb pits.
Yes to only the driders in the afterlife that were in Lolth's domain, no living driders are affected. That said, where was it stated that it wasn't all of them? |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2020 : 20:23:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
6) The descriptions of all the metaphysical aspects (Entreri in the cocoon, Drizzt and Afafrenfere ascending, etc.) were amazing.
Yeah, but the whole concept behind the cocoon was just Chirstian Hell and Heaven--which has no place in FR--though, and Artemis being "redeemed" (lol) because he's scared to go to Hell is... underwhelming?
quote:
7) This idea of Lolth not caring about her followers seems odd to me. She meddles intensely in their lives and definitely plays favorites. For instance, she has been determined to keep House Baenre at the top of her hierarchy, interceding many times to bestow special favor upon members of that house (stopping Olodra from taking over during the Time of Troubles, returning Quenthel to life, granting Yvonnel exceptional powers, temporarily making Liriel her Chosen, etc.).
This has been canon since forever, and the drow should have noticed this millennia ago, as I expained in another post. The only reason they didn't is because the justification behind their worldbuilding is "because I say so". Lolth has never cared about her followers, she only cares that they're bound to her. Certain books depict her as a straight limitation to the drow. Being a control freak doesn't mean caring, it only means wanting others to bend to your whims. It's also canon that she's always enjoyed seeing her followers rushing to do whatever they think she wants done in order to get her favor, and fighting each other without understanding anything of what's going on. Hating each other, torturing each other, making each other miserable. She stands for strife--not chaos--and I'm glad RAS has finally acknowledged it. Though, as I said, it happened far too late.
Lolth doesn't know the thoughts of her followers either; for example, she can't even prevent Eilistraee from communicating with them, and she can't understand when a priestess is a Masked Traitor of Vhaeraun.
As for the creation of Yvonnel, Lolth is often shown to be short-sighted, engaging in stuff that is bigger than her and that is bound to fail from the beginning (see the Weave thingy--or really, all her plans to invade the surface or conquer anything. ALL of them ultimately failed). Maybe she thought she could control Yvonnel, then stuff didn't turn out like she wanted.
Every time I see Shakti Hunruzin I wonder if they will ever reveal she is a high priestess of vharaun and how his death and resurrection affected her. His power was supposedly what shielded her mind enough that Lloth could not know |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2020 : 20:26:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
This came from the same guy who branded all orcs as "mindless, savage beasts who can never make kingdoms because they're evulz" and destroyed Many-Arrows just for pandering a few old fans who are resistant to change, so I remain a bit skeptical. In a year or so they will revert this event again just to pander the old fans again.
In fairness to RAS, I don't recall much depiction of orcs in FR sourcebooks or novels as anything other than stupid, ugly, evil cannon fodder for adventurers.
Look at all the info we have on the past kingdoms and achievements of the elves, dwarves, humans, dragons, illithids, etc. We don't have that with the orcs.
The orcs in "crusade " were a cut above the norm. Military disciplined zhent followers of cyric. Still crude and evil, but they worked side by side with azoun and the alliance and fought with honor to destroy the Tuigan horde |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2020 : 21:15:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Every time I see Shakti Hunruzin I wonder if they will ever reveal she is a high priestess of vharaun and how his death and resurrection affected her. His power was supposedly what shielded her mind enough that Lloth could not know
I wouldn't hold my breath.
The way Ed explained the Eilistraee&Vhaeraunt thing, however, allows for some of their magic to still work duyring the Spellplague era. In short, according to Ed, when Vhaeraun attacked Eilistraee, she spared him. She defeated him with the help of Mystra, and trapped his consciousness in a Weave dream (while borrowing his portfolio) as part of a plan with Mystra to ensure that all 3 (and a few other) would survive the Spellplague and all the bad events that were coming (and Mystra had foreseen).
When Qilué was killed, she turned into a Weaveghost, bringing much of Eilistraee's power (and so Vhaeraun's too) into the Weave. After the Weave was stranded, that power remained trapped there for a century or so. However, in the meanwhile, Eilistraee--while nearly powerless--could still communicate with people and even cast magic if she sent a manifestation in the specific place.
So, maybe she still had the magic that Vhaeraun used to shield the minds of his Masked Traitors from Lolth, and kept shielding them? |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 01 Aug 2020 21:15:22 |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2020 : 02:49:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Every time I see Shakti Hunruzin I wonder if they will ever reveal she is a high priestess of vharaun and how his death and resurrection affected her. His power was supposedly what shielded her mind enough that Lloth could not know
I wouldn't hold my breath.
The way Ed explained the Eilistraee&Vhaeraunt thing, however, allows for some of their magic to still work duyring the Spellplague era. In short, according to Ed, when Vhaeraun attacked Eilistraee, she spared him. She defeated him with the help of Mystra, and trapped his consciousness in a Weave dream (while borrowing his portfolio) as part of a plan with Mystra to ensure that all 3 (and a few other) would survive the Spellplague and all the bad events that were coming (and Mystra had foreseen).
When Qilué was killed, she turned into a Weaveghost, bringing much of Eilistraee's power (and so Vhaeraun's too) into the Weave. After the Weave was stranded, that power remained trapped there for a century or so. However, in the meanwhile, Eilistraee--while nearly powerless--could still communicate with people and even cast magic if she sent a manifestation in the specific place.
So, maybe she still had the magic that Vhaeraun used to shield the minds of his Masked Traitors from Lolth, and kept shielding them?
Phew. I have an OOTA expanded game spanning all of the north and I was setting up a subplot of several NPC's referencing the Promenade of the Dark Maiden along with a specific Eilistraee cleric. I then found out that it's not until the end of the current decade that she 'comes back'. It's good to know she's still really there in the between time. |
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T_P_T |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2020 : 03:15:27
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The Promenade is currently being rebuilt, if that can be of interest to you, and has a sister shrine in Waterdeeo too. Ed has provided some lore on it, both in Death Masks and via Twitter.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Trelasarra_Zuind |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Archfey of Debauchery
Acolyte
23 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2020 : 21:35:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Dinin? Wasn't he the elder brother that slew the eldest brother? How did he come back? (I thought he'd been turned into a drider or something -- though it's been many years since I touched any of those books)
Yes, Dinin was the secondborn male of the Do'Urden household, who killed Nalfein so that he could be elderboy. Vierna turned Dinin into a drider, but in Relentless, all the drow who were ever driderfied were brought from Lolth's domain into the Prime to assist Zhindia in her surface conquest. All of these driders were turned back into drow by Quenthel and Yvonnel 2.0 with the assistance of the memories of Yvonnel 1.0, and among them was Dinin.
Wasn't Drizzt the one who killed Dinin?
I've never really liked the way driders were handled... I once thought up a way for a drow to be transformed into a drider while retaining their intelligence and such, but it was a bit convoluted and I never had any reason to use it.
Yes. I concur. Why would an intelligent species transform a valued warrior or arcane or divine "heretic" into a mindless hulking beast? I would much rather have a thoughtful, angry, hateful Drider fronting my army rather than a wall of emotionless Driders fighting mechanically. I would also imagine that the Drow elves would have academies for those Drow recently transformed into Driders. I mean, I cannot imagine a drow is punished to become a new beast and just automatically knows how to fight in that new body. Muscle memory cannot be applicable if the brain that sends messages is mindless.
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2020 : 01:02:28
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
I think I saw someone asking if Ghaunadaur was mentioned, but I can't find the post anymore. The answer though is that none of the members of the Dark Seldarine other than Lolth is mentioned, alluded to, or have their existence acknowledged at all.
Let's be fair, this is hardly endemic to the Dark Seldarine.
There are four gods of magic, guess who's the only one to get screentime?
There are three Greater Powers aligned with evil, but everyone knows Bane and Cyric are there to pad out the god count. Adding salt to the wound how the Dark Trinity have been reduced to what they are in 5e.
The dragon pantheon is arguably the oldest pantheon in existence, but everything about dragons in the game revolves around a spat between Bahamut and Tiamat.
The devs have their favorites. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2020 : 01:34:48
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
quote:
Originally posted by Drizztsmanchild
@Snowy.
Was it a merging?
I read it more as Afafrenfere sacrificing his opportunity to return so Drizzt could. After realizing he couldn't bring both of them back.
The way that the man who picked up Afafrenfere's robes was described, was such that he did it like he was the one who left them there. He also went through his own memories (those of Drizzt) to find Andahar, whose location Afafrenfere did not know about.
The entity that returned had Drizzt's looks, as was made apparent in the end. However, if we think about it, were it solely Drizzt, he wouldn't pick up Afa's shed clothes and then donned them himself, especially when those clothes weren't just ordinary robes, but rather the specific robes granted to the Master of the East Wind, which Afafrenfere had attained.
I could be reading it wrong though. It's really not much better if Afafrenfere's completely gone, as it'd be removing the only recognized non-heterosexual male character in all of the Drizzt books and yeah, that's not a good look.
I meant to comment on this earlier, but got sidetracked. I didn't read anything sexual in the merging (if that's what it was). What stuck out to me more was Afa remembering his parents kicking him out after they learned "what he was". Considering that he thought of Parbid soon after, this makes it sound like his parents kicked him out because he was gay (or what we would call such). This makes little sense in the context of the Realms, so it stuck out to me, unless there is something else about Afa that I am forgetting. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2020 : 02:17:01
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
I think I saw someone asking if Ghaunadaur was mentioned, but I can't find the post anymore. The answer though is that none of the members of the Dark Seldarine other than Lolth is mentioned, alluded to, or have their existence acknowledged at all.
Let's be fair, this is hardly endemic to the Dark Seldarine.
There are four gods of magic, guess who's the only one to get screentime?
There are three Greater Powers aligned with evil, but everyone knows Bane and Cyric are there to pad out the god count. Adding salt to the wound how the Dark Trinity have been reduced to what they are in 5e.
The dragon pantheon is arguably the oldest pantheon in existence, but everything about dragons in the game revolves around a spat between Bahamut and Tiamat.
The devs have their favorites.
I fully agree, but this case is especially outstanding, because the matter at hand focuses on what has always been one of the main goals of both Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, and they're the *only* deities with that goal. Also, because WotC has a history of not only disregarding, but doggedly trashing those gods. Just to name the latest example, MToF turned Vhaeraun into Lolth's bodyguard #2, crapping on one of his most fundamental aspects in the same way as LP did with Eilistraee. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 05 Aug 2020 02:18:07 |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2020 : 03:24:09
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Man, what the hell happened?
I bailed out around the Neverwinter books, and it feels like everything since has been an exercise in repeatedly jumping the shark. I wish he’d committed to all the Companions staying dead and the orcs becoming a part of the North. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2020 : 03:39:18
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Man, what the hell happened?
I bailed out around the Neverwinter books, and it feels like everything since has been an exercise in repeatedly jumping the shark. I wish he’d committed to all the Companions staying dead and the orcs becoming a part of the North.
You made it longer than I did.
I think the whole Many-Arrows thing, both how it came about and how it ended, was all WotC's direction. That's kind of a big deal, changing the socio-political structure of a large chunk of the setting -- that's the kind of thing that is dictated to authors, instead of "hey, author, great idea! You do that, and we'll revamp everything we're doing to match!" |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2020 : 03:52:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Man, what the hell happened?
I bailed out around the Neverwinter books, and it feels like everything since has been an exercise in repeatedly jumping the shark. I wish he’d committed to all the Companions staying dead and the orcs becoming a part of the North.
You made it longer than I did.
I think the whole Many-Arrows thing, both how it came about and how it ended, was all WotC's direction. That's kind of a big deal, changing the socio-political structure of a large chunk of the setting -- that's the kind of thing that is dictated to authors, instead of "hey, author, great idea! You do that, and we'll revamp everything we're doing to match!"
I actually really liked Many-Arrows! I’m heartbroken it’s caught in canon purgatory these days. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2020 : 04:03:55
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I liked it too. But hey, gotta have the good guys talk about killing orc babies. The irksome part is that Bruenor and Catti never get called out for blatant racism in the books. Instead, Catti even gets to hide behind Mielikki, who--as a goddess--not only doesn't condone genocide, but has never had anything against orcs in particular, and has the patroness of a whole goodly orc culture (Eldath) as one of her closest friend. Mielikki has no business believing that orcs are innately evil; this was clearly about Catti throwing her name around to feel justified to act on her racism, and make her words carry great authority, but that's never brought up in the series.
(PS: this wasn't RAS' decision, this was WotC's decision and editorial mandate, like they did for the drow at the end of 3e). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 05 Aug 2020 04:06:05 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2020 : 04:14:19
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Man, what the hell happened?
I bailed out around the Neverwinter books, and it feels like everything since has been an exercise in repeatedly jumping the shark. I wish he’d committed to all the Companions staying dead and the orcs becoming a part of the North.
I wasn't a fan of the Neverwinter arc, and personally, I am glad the Companions returned (Drizzt x Dahlia...just no lol). But I am also a sap, so I welcome character returns. Zak's return in particularly made me happy.
But there are other issues I have, which I have mentioned. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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King Libertine
Seeker
USA
85 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2020 : 21:02:15
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| I just bought the book. Only 122 pages in. Though I have read the spoilers, I don't care. It's the story and adventure I enjoy. So far I think it's a good book. |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2020 : 23:40:42
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Some random thoughts
I was bracing for the book to be bad, but it was ok...even good.
There was a point where it stalled for me...when they were running around with the deep gnomes and all the drow intrigue ..it was a bit much IMO.
Interesting to see wehre they'll go with the whole infection thing. I've learned to give RA a chance to explain things.
I complained about Wulfgar coming off as a loser, he couldn;t even nail a point blank shot on that Cambion demon elf thing,but that was explained in this book.
It kind of bothers me that all of these people can dis-corporate themselves....It kinda makes Kane seem less special now...
I think its time that Wulfgar gets some attention. In the words of Tony Stark .."it's time for you to strut bigman.."
RA if you are reading this please give Wulfgar an epic quest to reunite the barbarians tribes. Have him meet tempest or Unther, Buff up his abilities - War Cries etc , - unlock more Capabilities within Aegis Fang  |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2020 : 15:18:17
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I don't understand why people are complaining that the cocoon changed Entreri overnight. His path to redemption has been going on for years now. Hell, he already was "good" before the cocoon.
The only thing the cocoon did was show him what was expecting him in the afterlife. Entreri still isn't redeemed. If he dies now, that sufferring is still waiting for him. Entreri still needs to use the rest of his life to get the balance back to good.
The thing with Lolth raises a lot of questions. At the end of the previous trilogy, RAS was already suggesting that Lolth was changing to reflect the changes in her followers. I'm not sure this means that Menzoberrazan is going to abandon Lolth, more so when you still have plenty of fanatics in the city. If anything, RAS seems to be laying down the groundwork for a civil war. I think that many of Lolth's followers will simply just stop being Chaotic stupid. Menzoberrazan will still be an agressive city bent on conquest, they'll just stop with the random acts of evil.
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
I get what you're saying about the nudity, but it's not like Drizzt has had any problems running through populated places buck-naked before, for instance when Catti and Regis was being carried away by the unicorn in Gauntlgrym, probably half of the dwarves there saw his naked ass streaking through the corridors. Sure, that was an emergency, but the situation in Relentless isn't any less pressing since he'd just found out that he's become a dad, I'd think clothing would be pretty far down the list of priorities in his mind. I saw it as sort of, only if the clothes belonged to him would he have picked them up and put them on as an afterthought, otherwise I don't know that they'd register at all.
I honestly think you're looking way too much into this. I see no reason for Drizzt to refuse to wear Afafrenre's robes and run around naked. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
Edited by - Tanthalas on 21 Aug 2020 15:25:13 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2020 : 19:07:22
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The redemption arc for Entreri can't come in the form of him becoming morally virtuous. It can't become in the form of what people usually mean for redemption. He's become what he is due to abuse (his life before the novels was actually worse than Drizzt's from certain aspects for example, because Drizzt had someone who loved and cared after him, Entreri only had sick f***s), so the most important part of the process is actually healing--finding a way to take all that strength that he turned his pain into, and use it to reforge his life free from the shackles of his past. It isn't about repenting or seeing the error of his ways or some other nonsense; it can't happen that way, because it can't happen through just giving up what he built himself on in order to overcome the abuse, but through channeling towards more constructive outlets. Finding his personal truth. Redeeming because morals say so just isn't how people work--that's brainwashing, not redemption.
However, the Hell thing (which made absolutely 0 sense from a lore standpoint btw), is literally finalizing redemption--bringing Entreri's arc to closure--through actual torture inflicted on someone that lived seeing the world as an entirely hostile place and reacting to that for a lot of his life. It's a violence through and through--it's a form of brainwashing--and the result was Entreri being "redeemed" (lol) through fear (in this case, fear of Hell). What the hell indeed. That's... bad, there's no other way of expressing it.
This is also strictly connected to the matter of the various drow who have been stepped upon all their life--they'll never have an epiphany with "OMG! I was so wrong and so evil". No, they'll need to heal and forge their life anew; give themselves a new purpose. New moral systems only come after that long, difficult work (which is why Eilistraee is explicitly stated in sources to be an empoweree, helping people to find their own path, not a "repent for teh evulz you committed!" kind of deity, unlike Smedman's retconned stuff tries to imply).
The Drizzt books take the reverse approach; they go on and on about morality and what's right and what's wrong, but revolutions and changes don't happen that way. They don't happen because of set of beliefs; sets of beliefs are formalized after revolutions. Revolutions happen because of needs and unsatisfaction and anger, often channeled by the "have some, want more" , and while there are underlying principles to many revolutions, they are in the form of very general, intuitive, and universal ideas born out of the needs mentioned above (like freedom, or better quality of life, or just the right to friggin' eat). It's never "we must be good to each other, because it's the right thing to do".
It's also kinda ironic, in that this is born out of condemnation towards the absolutism of religion and dogma, and out of showing how this absolutism corrupts, but it engages in absolutism itself. Why is the set of beliefs that includes "goodness" automatically assumed to be the right one? This is simply accepted; there are no scenes built to explore the reason of it or why it would work, only scenes to show why Lolth's doesn't work anymore. For example, since the drow always seek personal gain, and since that's hardly going away no matter how you put it, this can be a good opportunity to craft scenes to explore selfish altruism and build it into the story, rather than taking it for granted. Since religion is being rejected, that's a good opportunity to explore optimistic nihilism and show why it can work for a whole society, rather than only for the individual. I'm not saying that all books that use common good principles should do this, but for a story that wants to condemn absolutism, embracing a set of moral beliefs as "the right one" a priori feels like betraying one of the core messages.
This comes full circles with the Entreri arc, because his redemption is about raining on him a given moral system, and that system is stated to be absolute by the surrogate of the Christian God--ubiquitous, all-knowing, ever-watching--in-universe (though that kind of drivel has no place in FR). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 21 Aug 2020 19:33:52 |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2020 : 20:41:00
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| Not sure how you continue saying that Entreri is redeemed when if he died at this point the same suffering will be waiting for him. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2020 : 21:11:34
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Two reasons.
One, you seem to be conflating narrative redemption with religious redemption. They're absolutely not the same. I was discussing the redemption arc for a character that is a victim of abuse, and that has nothing to do with afterlife and everything to do with personal development (and, as I said, can't come from morality rained from on high, or through brainwashing) which is what prompted my comment. And this is the most important part in this matter--the afterlife doesn't matter in this narrative, we only see Entreri in his life.
Two, he wouldn't suffer that torture anyway. This is FR, not Christianity (and RAS seems to have confused the two things for some weird reason). Nothing says he'd go to a totally crappy afterlife. "Evil" (and at this point he isn't even "evil") doesn't necessarily get a bad afterlife. If he has his own belief (and he has) and if he doesn't openly say "f**k you" to the gods, he's likely to be taken to an afterlife of a deity that aligns with his belief. If RAS (who in his books is so quick to disregard the gods despite writing in FR) so badly wanted to communicate to the readers that Entreri will get a decent afterlife, he could have shown him starting to develop an affinity for some aspects of a certain faith (becoming stronger at the break could be a facet of Ilmater's ideology, and Entreri could display interest towards only that spect of that faith, to make a trivial example). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 21 Aug 2020 21:12:18 |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2020 : 21:31:20
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That's hardly Entreri being redeemed.
He still needs to actually live doing good. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2020 : 22:33:56
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I am all for Entreri having a good afterlife--in fact, I want that for him, but I always want to know about that kind of thing, anyway.
The irony here is that Bob has flat out said he doesn't like the FR gods, and I am under the impression, since he grew up Catholic but I don't think he is anymore, that he is bitter about religion in general, and is projecting that bitterness onto all the FR gods. He shows how religion corrupts (Lolth, and the weird decree by Mielikki), but not how it can heal (Eilistraee, Ilmater, etc). I don't care if he's an atheist, Catholic, Muslim, or pagan IRL--the religion of FR is well-established, the gods are real, and the afterlife is a thing (and there are options).
But then, despite this apparent bitterness, he throws in the Christian idea of heaven/hell for Entreri. Were this his own world, or a fantasy setting with a binary reward/punishment system, it would work fine. But it's FR. Show the reward or punishment that awaits Entreri in the afterlife based on future choices he makes, but do it in a way that makes sense for FR.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2020 : 23:02:21
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| Even putting aside the topic of whether he is redeemed or not, it's shittastic and incredibly lazy character development. Entreri is trapped in the cocoon literally as a result of it randomly wandering into his apartment while he was meeting with Regis and Dahlia. Then, later, it's revealed that "Charon" had nothing to do with the demonic plot, it was an anomaly that crossed over during the planar weakening, an anomaly that has zero precedence. It's a lazy plot device that was put in to quickly achieve a goal because RAS doesn't feel like, or doesn't know how to, write proper character development. Entreri's mindset does a complete 180 from his time in the cocoon, and his "revelations" come from "truths" that are heavily inconsistent with FR cosmology lore. It's artificially hammered into place by making an inflated character (Yvonnel) support "facts" to validate things that stand at direct odds to established canon. Then, after all of that, "Charon"/Sharon just disappears. What happened to the little girl that he was possessing? What about all of that build-up that RAS did about how heartbreaking it was to her mother that Sharon was pulled into the demonic plot? RAS seems to have forgotten all about the fact that there was a little girl at all, which doesn't exactly help the whole impression that this was just a contrived, not well-thought out thing to achieve something that the author wants even though it makes little sense. This is the kind of thing that makes most fanfiction terrible, and it's disappointing to see a professional author, especially one with as much experience as RAS, do. |
Edited by - sno4wy on 21 Aug 2020 23:03:19 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2020 : 00:44:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
That's hardly Entreri being redeemed.
He still needs to actually live doing good.
Perhaps I haven't formulated my thoughts clearly enough.
The very idea that forcing a set of moral beliefs from above (and through torture at that!) can make for an even remotely passable character development--let alone any part of a "redemption arc"--is *bad*. That's not development; that's brainwashing. The fact that this "rain of morality from on high" was inflicted on a character who has suffered massive abuse, who has rebuilt himself around a certain set of beliefs, and that is now being forced to give up on the part of his identity that he forged by overcoming that abuse, is a failure at trying to explore how people work, and (quite frankly) a slap across the face of readers who have actually gone through the healing process.
This is the idea from which my previous posts started and that I explained in those.
Also, sno4wy presents another problem: the details pointing at Sharon/Charon being all part of really contrived set up to get Artemis through this, and not a natural development of the story. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 22 Aug 2020 01:00:00 |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2020 : 13:46:44
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And again, you're basically using the cocoon to dismiss all of Entreri's character development in the past decade. You're acting like this is a huge change to Entreri's life, but the truth is that he was already acting good before this event.
The only thing that the cocoon showed him was that all the bad he has done in his life still far outweighs the good. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2020 : 14:27:31
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Don't strawman me, please. I never said that Entreri's whole story boils down to this plot device. I pointed out that the part of the arc that now seems to be the culmination of his development (or what will be an importan part of his development regardless) was handled awfully, from a narrative perspective, from the perspective of respecting of the lore/world, from the perspective of respecting the character, and--perhaps most important--from the perspective of understanding and respecting how abuse affects a person. Seriously, "let's set the redemption in stone by torturing the guy and brainwashing him with fear of hell"? In fact, I very much explicitly said:
quote:
[...]let alone any part of a "redemption arc"[...]
I'm not talking about being "good", I'm talking about all the work that Artemis did being crapped upon with a cheap plot device.
I very much hope that RAS will make Entreri come to his senses and reject this whole "fear of hell" thing, as a part of the theme of rejection of dogma (even though that will be rather disjointed and forced, when it comes to Artemis' story, because he never was a dogma kind of guy and because that isn't the theme of his story--but still better than what we have now) because it was inflicted upon him through sheer violence (and because it makes absolutely no sense in FR). It was friggin' abuse on a person that experienced massive amounts of it, and this is supposed to make him "change"? Seriously, don't you see how shallow and f*cked up that very idea is? |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 22 Aug 2020 15:12:03 |
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Relentless - R.A. Salvatore [SPOILERS]
