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Drizztsmanchild
Learned Scribe

USA
227 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2020 :  10:30:16  Show Profile  Visit Drizztsmanchild's Homepage Send Drizztsmanchild a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I haven't read this yet ,but am looking forward to it. Figured I post a legitimate spoilers thread(No offense snowy, I saw you have another thread and dont mean to thread on your toes)

Though I really wish others would come back and write. Or WoTC(Hasbro?) Would allow them.

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

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33902 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2020 :  11:53:14  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Drizztsmanchild


Though I really wish others would come back and write. Or WoTC(Hasbro?) Would allow them.



The problem is WotC. WotC doesn't care to do novels anymore. Part of it is a "we're not a novel company" mentality, but I think another part is their clear desire to not have any lore that isn't explicitly related to the current adventure path.

A lot of authors would be happy to write more for WotC, but WotC isn't asking them.

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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3294 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2020 :  15:06:58  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There's one part of this story that makes me glad, but also makes me raise an eyebrow.

So, at the end of the book, Kimmuriel talks to Quenthel and some other, and says that, to the illithids, Lolth is essentially an illnes, as she doesn't care for the drow, and only wants to see them fight each other, run in circles in confusion, and crawl at her feet. Then shows them some memory from the first Yvonnel, from where she wasn't evil yet. This is enough to convince Quenthel and the others to discard Lolth and abandon evil, and prepare to return to Menzoberranzan to change everything.

Now, this makes me glad, because it should have happened millennia ago in-universe. The fact that Lolth doesn't care for the drow and only makes them miserable has been canon--straight canon, very explicit--ever since 2e, and it was absolutely stupid and bad worldbuilding that the drow went thorugh 12k+ years of total misery without *one* meaningful change. Without splinter movements (Eilistraee&Vhaeraun aren't splinter movements, because they didn't form within Lolthite society. They're external societies), without disillusion--nothing.

Theocracy, iron-fisted totalitarianisms, or what you have, when a society is so ridiculous that you have laughable stuff like "loving your kids is weakness", when commoners have no rights or anything, can be killed for fun by nobles, can be bankrupted for fun by priestesses (and subsequently enslaved)--this is all in the lore across the editions, btw--when the vast majority of drow is perpetually emotionally and materially miserable, it makes sense for them to lose faith. To be disilluded. Especially since the drow are often described as a highly intelligent race.

You can't even use fear of death as an excuse, because 1)the drow are *always* risking death in the Lolthite society 2)it has never been enough to prevent formation of splinter movents, changes, etc... It hasn't been for RW societies, it isn't for the drow, who also have the support of other deities, and don't just have Lolth.

And before someone comes up with "but North Korea" or whatever, there are A LOT of North Koreans who are totally disillusioned with the regime, and try to escape. They only put up a facade. The difference is that in FR that disillusion alone would be enough to hurt Lolth's power. Lolth's followers have more influence on her than she has on them. In FR, the power of a deity has always depended on the faith they get from their followers. Ever since the Times of Troubles, a god's own life has depended on the faith they get. Disillusion, even if not openly manifested (therefore this wouldn't even require the drow to actively do anything, just develop resentment or disillusion), will severely hurt Lolth.

Seriously, this defeats one of the pillars of narrative, i.e. exploring the consequences of actions or of certain conditions, because the worldbuilding behind the drow wants to be one of the most Stupid Evil (tm) in fantasy, without any of the consequences. It's as if the drow lack any drive to improve their condition.

Also, it's not like the drow have no history or tradition before Lolth, which would make them far more malleable. They had the experience of the power reached by Ilythiir (which was without Lolth, and with Vhaeraun), and the propserity of Miyeritar (again, no Lolth, but Eilistraee). This legacy should have been more influential in leading more of them to see Lolth for the fraud she is.

So, at this point, this change is somewhat good, because it's better late than never.

On the other hand, it was goofy.

1)It came from the wrong characters IMO. Not from those who could gain something from changing the status quo (the "have some, want more" which are often those who can get the masses to rebel), not from the people who've been made miserable for years, but from the enforcers. Quenthel&co are those who defended the status quo for a long-ass time. They're the ones who somewhat benefit from it. They are sadistic, they randomly killed other drow with savage glee for stupid crap like accidentaly killing a spider. They tortured people for fun. And now, "talk-no-jutsu" and some memories make them do a 180?

2)As mentioned, it was pretty evident that Lolth has never cared for the drow, even in-universe. A drow is constantly told and shown that they're nothing but meat for her. At multiple times in history, Lolth dropped all pretenses to care about the prosperity of the drow, and just left them to rot following quite stupid plans. Many drow should have noticed that on their own--especially since they're described as highly intelligent.

Furthermore, for millennia, you have people like the followers of Eilistraee--and Eilistraee herself--who have been *actively* reaching for the drow, even materially helping them embrace a different path, even risking their life for them. On top of that, Eilistraee has also done something comparable to those memories: she's been showing all drow--including the matron mothers and Quenthel--what life could actually be (including in the form of lucid dream and emotiomns showing joy that they have been missing on--which are a comparable media to the memories).

None of that (not the material activities, not the emotions, not the actively reaching for the drow) has EVER been enough to even achieve the smallest change. Millennia of seeing your kids being killed in front of you for the lulz, millennia of pain and sheer abuse have never been enough to move anyone (except Drizzt&co, ofc) to take the SLIGHTEST bit of action. Yet, now Kimmuriel's words and a bunch of scenes convince the matron mother of the first house of the most fanatical Lolthite city that "ohh, maybe evil is bad..."

I hope I'm missing something, because this is not how you implement changes.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 29 Jul 2020 21:01:04
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1731 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2020 :  16:31:46  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This came from the same guy who branded all orcs as "mindless, savage beasts who can never make kingdoms because they're evulz" and destroyed Many-Arrows just for pandering a few old fans who are resistant to change, so I remain a bit skeptical. In a year or so they will revert this event again just to pander the old fans again.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe

489 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2020 :  18:56:13  Show Profile Send Lilianviaten a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm still sorting through my feelings about the rebellion in Menzoberranzan and the route taken to get there. I will express a few thoughts:

1) I am disappointed that House Baenre is now more untouchable than ever. As a place of constant chaos, I've never liked 1 house sitting firmly atop the hierarchy for so long.

2) Yvonnel is a very interesting character, but doesn't make any real sense to me. Lolth seemingly shot herself in the foot by creating Yvonnel. She gave an incredible amount of power (pretty much making her an Elminster level Chosen) to a very young, immature drow who had not yet shown any loyalty to Lolth. While Lolth has given huge power boosts to mortals before (Liriel comes to mind first), they have always been temporary and revoked at the first sign of disloyalty.

3) Lolth is always shown as an extremely meddlesome deity. She watches the mortals under her portfolio very closely. Knowing that Kimmuriel lacks any reverence for Lolth, and that he is the only one who could unravel her plot against the illithid hive-mind, why wouldn't she have had her priestesses kill him sooner? Yiccardaria specifically said that she let Kimmuriel go free because Lolth doesn't care about him one way or the other (before Kane destroyed the yochlol).

4) On that same note, nothing ever came of the ending to Timeless, where Matron Zhindia had Kimmuriel captive. Since she despises heretics, I wondered why she didn't kill him then or turn him into a drider. I figured she probably had a clever plot for the illithid to plant false memories within him and cause him to betray Bregan Daerthe to serve her cause. But that didn't happen, and now I'm confused about how that unfolded.

5) The birthing magic spell was fantastic to read, but it seemed more like a high magic thing to me. Lady Penitent trilogy aside, I don't think drow can cast high magic. But given the combined power of Catti-Brie and Yvonnel, maybe it's not as OP as it seemed.

6) The descriptions of all the metaphysical aspects (Entreri in the cocoon, Drizzt and Afafrenfere ascending, etc.) were amazing.

7) This idea of Lolth not caring about her followers seems odd to me. She meddles intensely in their lives and definitely plays favorites. For instance, she has been determined to keep House Baenre at the top of her hierarchy, interceding many times to bestow special favor upon members of that house (stopping Olodra from taking over during the Time of Troubles, returning Quenthel to life, granting Yvonnel exceptional powers, temporarily making Liriel her Chosen, etc.).
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe

489 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2020 :  18:58:48  Show Profile Send Lilianviaten a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

This came from the same guy who branded all orcs as "mindless, savage beasts who can never make kingdoms because they're evulz" and destroyed Many-Arrows just for pandering a few old fans who are resistant to change, so I remain a bit skeptical. In a year or so they will revert this event again just to pander the old fans again.




In fairness to RAS, I don't recall much depiction of orcs in FR sourcebooks or novels as anything other than stupid, ugly, evil cannon fodder for adventurers.

Look at all the info we have on the past kingdoms and achievements of the elves, dwarves, humans, dragons, illithids, etc. We don't have that with the orcs.
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1731 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2020 :  19:18:42  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten


In fairness to RAS, I don't recall much depiction of orcs in FR sourcebooks or novels as anything other than stupid, ugly, evil cannon fodder for adventurers.

Look at all the info we have on the past kingdoms and achievements of the elves, dwarves, humans, dragons, illithids, etc. We don't have that with the orcs.



Yeah. And just when they were going to start, RAS cut their wings out just because old players wanted a guilt-free race to kill.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 29 Jul 2020 :  19:43:33  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Didn't he also, out of the blue, create a city where orcs and dwarves lived side by side?

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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3294 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2020 :  19:46:03  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten

6) The descriptions of all the metaphysical aspects (Entreri in the cocoon, Drizzt and Afafrenfere ascending, etc.) were amazing.



Yeah, but the whole concept behind the cocoon was just Chirstian Hell and Heaven--which has no place in FR--though, and Artemis being "redeemed" (lol) because he's scared to go to Hell is... underwhelming?

quote:
7) This idea of Lolth not caring about her followers seems odd to me. She meddles intensely in their lives and definitely plays favorites. For instance, she has been determined to keep House Baenre at the top of her hierarchy, interceding many times to bestow special favor upon members of that house (stopping Olodra from taking over during the Time of Troubles, returning Quenthel to life, granting Yvonnel exceptional powers, temporarily making Liriel her Chosen, etc.).



This has been canon since forever, and the drow should have noticed this millennia ago, as I expained in another post. The only reason they didn't is because the justification behind their worldbuilding is "because I say so". Lolth has never cared about her followers, she only cares that they're bound to her. Certain books depict her as a straight limitation to the drow. Being a control freak doesn't mean caring, it only means wanting others to bend to your whims. It's also canon that she's always enjoyed seeing her followers rushing to do whatever they think she wants done in order to get her favor, and fighting each other without understanding anything of what's going on. Hating each other, torturing each other, making each other miserable. She stands for strife--not chaos--and I'm glad RAS has finally acknowledged it. Though, as I said, it happened far too late.

Lolth doesn't know the thoughts of her followers either; for example, she can't even prevent Eilistraee from communicating with them, and she can't understand when a priestess is a Masked Traitor of Vhaeraun.

As for the creation of Yvonnel, Lolth is often shown to be short-sighted, engaging in stuff that is bigger than her and that is bound to fail from the beginning (see the Weave thingy--or really, all her plans to invade the surface or conquer anything. ALL of them ultimately failed). Maybe she thought she could control Yvonnel, then stuff didn't turn out like she wanted.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 30 Jul 2020 00:07:36
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3294 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2020 :  19:52:11  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

This came from the same guy who branded all orcs as "mindless, savage beasts who can never make kingdoms because they're evulz" and destroyed Many-Arrows just for pandering a few old fans who are resistant to change, so I remain a bit skeptical. In a year or so they will revert this event again just to pander the old fans again.




In fairness to RAS, I don't recall much depiction of orcs in FR sourcebooks or novels as anything other than stupid, ugly, evil cannon fodder for adventurers.

Look at all the info we have on the past kingdoms and achievements of the elves, dwarves, humans, dragons, illithids, etc. We don't have that with the orcs.



2e created a whole alternative culture of agrarian orcs worshippers of Eldath, called Ondonti. The you have the orcs who now live in Thek and peacefully coexist with humans. But destroying Many Arrows and showing that orcs are inherently evil (which led to the nursery scene) wasn't on RAS, that I know. It was one of those totally idiotic WotC decison, similar to Lady Penitent, that they doggedly push because of some personal bias, and then proceed to utterly retcon when they do realize how stupid those decisions were.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 29 Jul 2020 21:01:12
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3407 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2020 :  20:13:00  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-As someone who has only read summaries and reviews of all of these recent books, I don't get the need to rehash the same characters and places over and over. From what I understand, he/they literally cloned Matron Malice. They made her into a new character entirely, but why "clone" her in the first place? I have no problems bringing a character like Zaknefein back. He was never really a character so much as an ideal to Drizzt, so him turning into a living, breathing character in non-prequel stories? Ok, works for me. Bringing back basically all of the Companions of the Hall after they all died/were written off? Getting hokey if you ask me, but I get it- money talks and those characters are all the backbone of his stories that sold well and made everyone lots of money. But bringing back randomly Malice? Especially to then turn it into a different character...Like, why?

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
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Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3294 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2020 :  21:01:55  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It was Yvonnel to be reincarnated, in a way. Frankly, I think it was just for nostalgia.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
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sno4wy
Learned Scribe

USA
329 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2020 :  23:29:37  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There are parts of Relentless that are really good. I was really impressed with much of it. I felt that Timeless was Salvatore's best work to date, and the good parts of Relentless trumped Timeless. However, the bad parts... ho boy.

Merging Drizzt with the only non-heterosexual male character recognized by the Drizzt books in literally all 30+ of them was a huge eh. Salvatore's long term fetishization of sapphic interactions finally stopped and while I'm glad that Afafrenfere's sexuality is not just something vaguely referred to through an offhand concept, eliminating him, or worse, using him to boost the golden boy some more, is questionable at best. I really hope that Salvatore isn't doing what he did in the Homecoming Trilogy where rather than exploring mental illness from the perspectives of characters who would be struggling with it, he had to magically give it to Drizzt, who then went through a really contrived process that eventually results in it being magically cured. What a slap in the face for real people who suffer from mental illness. I really hope that Drizzt isn't going to be used as a vehicle to exploring non-heterosexual perspectives, due to the merging with Afafrenfere, because that'd be a slap in the face for real LGBT+ people.

Everything about Salvatore's handling of Entreri has gone to shit since Homecoming. It's so painfully obvious that he has little to no knowledge about what trauma is actually like, and hasn't bothered to talk to anyone who can relate to Entreri's struggles. The cocoon is an incredibly lazy plot device, even more so because it massively breaks FR world canon to bring about the change that Salvatore wants, but can't be bothered to do so in an organic way. Abruptly changing a character because the author can't be half-assed to do it right and using really lazy means that stray vastly from the world is something that's done in very bad fanfiction, it isn't the sort of thing that should be done by a professional author, especially not one as experienced as Salvatore. It would've been kinder to the character if Salvatore had just killed him off. I guess that's not possible though, given that Salvatore seems to take the total opposite tack than George RR Martin when it comes to death, as in, characters that people like either never die or don't stay dead. While not as significant a character as Zaknafein, Dinin has a surprisingly large number of fans, and now he's back too. What a shock.

I can understand all of this as a rush job to hammer out everything he wants to have happen if Relentless is the final book ever. Hero had a lot of similar issues with abruptness and author wish-fulfillment, but that was looking at a future with no more FR novels. Now, with Timeless having been a bestseller and Relentless likely headed that way, there's no reason for HC not to continue on with the contract.

And the thing with the drow? Yeah, Irennan covered all that needed to be said.

Edited by - sno4wy on 29 Jul 2020 23:44:53
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3407 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2020 :  03:17:12  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Didn't he also, out of the blue, create a city where orcs and dwarves lived side by side?


-Yeah in one of the Hunter's Blade trilogy books they were looking for Gauntlgrym and found ruins (possibly from Gauntlgrym) with statues of Orcs and Dwarves living together. The famous "Orc Philosopher", which was much panned.

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

It was Yvonnel to be reincarnated, in a way. Frankly, I think it was just for nostalgia.


-Oh, okay. Well still, Malice, Yvonnel, the point stays the same. Just very unnecessary to do it.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium

Edited by - Lord Karsus on 30 Jul 2020 03:18:04
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3294 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2020 :  03:53:31  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, I don't disagree. As I said, I think it was for the nostalgia factor.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
33902 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2020 :  05:16:53  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

While not as significant a character as Zaknafein, Dinin has a surprisingly large number of fans, and now he's back too. What a shock.


Dinin? Wasn't he the elder brother that slew the eldest brother? How did he come back? (I thought he'd been turned into a drider or something -- though it's been many years since I touched any of those books)

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sno4wy
Learned Scribe

USA
329 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2020 :  06:06:19  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Dinin? Wasn't he the elder brother that slew the eldest brother? How did he come back? (I thought he'd been turned into a drider or something -- though it's been many years since I touched any of those books)



Yes, Dinin was the secondborn male of the Do'Urden household, who killed Nalfein so that he could be elderboy. Vierna turned Dinin into a drider, but in Relentless, all the drow who were ever driderfied were brought from Lolth's domain into the Prime to assist Zhindia in her surface conquest. All of these driders were turned back into drow by Quenthel and Yvonnel 2.0 with the assistance of the memories of Yvonnel 1.0, and among them was Dinin.
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Drizztsmanchild
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USA
227 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2020 :  07:36:51  Show Profile  Visit Drizztsmanchild's Homepage Send Drizztsmanchild a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Snowy.

Was it a merging?

I read it more as Afafrenfere sacrificing his opportunity to return so Drizzt could. After realizing he couldn't bring both of them back.

Edited by - Drizztsmanchild on 30 Jul 2020 07:39:41
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sno4wy
Learned Scribe

USA
329 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2020 :  09:12:03  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Drizztsmanchild

@Snowy.

Was it a merging?

I read it more as Afafrenfere sacrificing his opportunity to return so Drizzt could. After realizing he couldn't bring both of them back.



The way that the man who picked up Afafrenfere's robes was described, was such that he did it like he was the one who left them there. He also went through his own memories (those of Drizzt) to find Andahar, whose location Afafrenfere did not know about.

The entity that returned had Drizzt's looks, as was made apparent in the end. However, if we think about it, were it solely Drizzt, he wouldn't pick up Afa's shed clothes and then donned them himself, especially when those clothes weren't just ordinary robes, but rather the specific robes granted to the Master of the East Wind, which Afafrenfere had attained.

I could be reading it wrong though. It's really not much better if Afafrenfere's completely gone, as it'd be removing the only recognized non-heterosexual male character in all of the Drizzt books and yeah, that's not a good look.

Edited by - sno4wy on 30 Jul 2020 09:39:39
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Drizztsmanchild
Learned Scribe

USA
227 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2020 :  09:44:04  Show Profile  Visit Drizztsmanchild's Homepage Send Drizztsmanchild a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

quote:
Originally posted by Drizztsmanchild

@Snowy.

Was it a merging?

I read it more as Afafrenfere sacrificing his opportunity to return so Drizzt could. After realizing he couldn't bring both of them back.



The way that the man who picked up Afafrenfere's robes was described, was such that he did it like he was the one who left them there. He also went through his own memories (those of Drizzt) to find Andahar, whose location Afafrenfere did not know about.

The entity that returned had Drizzt's looks, as was made apparent in the end. However, if we think about it, were it solely Drizzt, he wouldn't pick up Afa's shed clothes and then donned them himself, especially when those clothes weren't just ordinary robes, but rather the specific robes granted to the Master of the East Wind, which Afafrenfere had attained.

I could be reading it wrong though. It's really not much better if Afafrenfere's completely gone, as it'd be removing the only recognized non-heterosexual male character in all of the Drizzt books and yeah, that's not a good look.



You could be right, but I didn't think of the clothes as anything more significant as those being the only thing to wear since he was naked when he returned. I assumed Yvonnel and company took Drizt's old clothes and stuff the first time they visited Thornhold in search of Drizzt. I guess we will see if theres a new novel.
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sno4wy
Learned Scribe

USA
329 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2020 :  10:26:20  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Drizztsmanchild
You could be right, but I didn't think of the clothes as anything more significant as those being the only thing to wear since he was naked when he returned. I assumed Yvonnel and company took Drizt's old clothes and stuff the first time they visited Thornhold in search of Drizzt. I guess we will see if theres a new novel.



I get what you're saying about the nudity, but it's not like Drizzt has had any problems running through populated places buck-naked before, for instance when Catti and Regis was being carried away by the unicorn in Gauntlgrym, probably half of the dwarves there saw his naked ass streaking through the corridors. Sure, that was an emergency, but the situation in Relentless isn't any less pressing since he'd just found out that he's become a dad, I'd think clothing would be pretty far down the list of priorities in his mind. I saw it as sort of, only if the clothes belonged to him would he have picked them up and put them on as an afterthought, otherwise I don't know that they'd register at all.

But I might also be looking at it from the perspective of what Drizzt is supposed to be, rather than how he's written. I guess, also from knowing multiple different people who have had varying degrees of wardrobe malfunctions due to the whole "OMG I'M A PARENT NOW!!!" taking up all of their thoughts, I figure with how family-oriented Drizzt is, that he would be similar.

That said, the fact of putting the robes on wasn't what primarily gave me the impression that Drizzt and Afa merged, it was the way that the scene was presented. It was senselessly vague with how the entity who returned wasn't described beyond being a "man". It was blatantly obvious that Drizzt was not gonna stay gone, and it was just further confirmation that it was him when he got Andahar out of where it was hidden. I dunno though, maybe the vagueness was to keep it mysterious, maybe for newer readers who aren't used to Salvatore's practices.

Edited by - sno4wy on 30 Jul 2020 10:32:43
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Wooly Rupert
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Dinin? Wasn't he the elder brother that slew the eldest brother? How did he come back? (I thought he'd been turned into a drider or something -- though it's been many years since I touched any of those books)



Yes, Dinin was the secondborn male of the Do'Urden household, who killed Nalfein so that he could be elderboy. Vierna turned Dinin into a drider, but in Relentless, all the drow who were ever driderfied were brought from Lolth's domain into the Prime to assist Zhindia in her surface conquest. All of these driders were turned back into drow by Quenthel and Yvonnel 2.0 with the assistance of the memories of Yvonnel 1.0, and among them was Dinin.



Wasn't Drizzt the one who killed Dinin?

I've never really liked the way driders were handled... I once thought up a way for a drow to be transformed into a drider while retaining their intelligence and such, but it was a bit convoluted and I never had any reason to use it.

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sleyvas
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Wow, I had thought at one point to try and catch up on all the Drizzt books, because I was years behind. I read them up to the point of the first couple in the 4e era (basically, I read about the refinding of Gauntlgrym and started the book after that one). For some reason I just stopped. I kept saying I was going to pick them back up and get all the way caught up again, but now I've been reading the witcher series and doing my own stuff. Meanwhile he's written at least 2 more books. I know people get a little irritated with some of his stuff, but I have to give it to the man.... he's prolific.

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Lord Karsus
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-Hey, if I had the skill and contract to be a writer to the point that it pays the bills, I'd be as prolific as they wanted me to be too, lol

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PattPlays
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Posted - 30 Jul 2020 :  19:20:12  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Dinin? Wasn't he the elder brother that slew the eldest brother? How did he come back? (I thought he'd been turned into a drider or something -- though it's been many years since I touched any of those books)



Yes, Dinin was the secondborn male of the Do'Urden household, who killed Nalfein so that he could be elderboy. Vierna turned Dinin into a drider, but in Relentless, all the drow who were ever driderfied were brought from Lolth's domain into the Prime to assist Zhindia in her surface conquest. All of these driders were turned back into drow by Quenthel and Yvonnel 2.0 with the assistance of the memories of Yvonnel 1.0, and among them was Dinin.




I never thought of Driders as a chekhov's gun.. huh.
Is there any advancement of Ghuanadaur in Relentless per chance?

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 30 Jul 2020 :  21:14:55  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays

quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Dinin? Wasn't he the elder brother that slew the eldest brother? How did he come back? (I thought he'd been turned into a drider or something -- though it's been many years since I touched any of those books)



Yes, Dinin was the secondborn male of the Do'Urden household, who killed Nalfein so that he could be elderboy. Vierna turned Dinin into a drider, but in Relentless, all the drow who were ever driderfied were brought from Lolth's domain into the Prime to assist Zhindia in her surface conquest. All of these driders were turned back into drow by Quenthel and Yvonnel 2.0 with the assistance of the memories of Yvonnel 1.0, and among them was Dinin.




I never thought of Driders as a chekhov's gun.. huh.


Not sure that qualifies, since it was like 64 novels ago.

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