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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Jul 2020 : 16:01:17
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This came up in another topic, and I think it deserved its own topic.
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Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, I don't view Unther as recovered. I view it as a lot of the folk have returned, and they're probably trying to rebuild places. Proably a lot of them that are returned were still slaves, and some genasi that were "slave lords" for Karshimis probably came over as well. I picture the Untheric folk however occupying the coast lands at the southern end, and maybe along the coast heading northward for a bit. I picture the ship of the gods island back, but with no civilization occupying it (personally, I put a rotating retinue of gods in lesser avatar form … ie. sharing a body with a mortal... actually there while in Abeir). But I'm picturing Tymanther as occupying the more interior lands, and maybe even the area that used to be Messemprar.
We know most of the returned Untherans ARE slaves, if not all. IIRC, the only ones with some degree of freedom were the priests of Gilgeam, and I don't know if they were just privileged slaves. That's why there were almost 2000 people willing to desert Gilgeam at the start of The Devil You Know (of these, only almost 1000 succeeded).
Now that I think about it, in the novel, the Untherans began to rebuild Unthalass at the start of 1487 DR, but how much they would have advanced by 1492? I guess they will be still focused in that area, maybe with a new town nearby. I mean, we don't know how much resources they have, besides man-power (a few thousand slaves?). And Unthalass was nearly rubble since it was destroyed by Gilgeam and Tiamat in the Time of Troubles, and then nearly buried during the Spellplague. They have a lot of work to do to...
As for the slave lords... maybe? We know Shyr was not transferred to Toril (Gilgeam's army was outside of it when the transferring happened, and they ended up a few miles outside Unthalass); but perhaps the blue flames would have transferred a few Shyran genasies (?) that were outside the city. Perhaps a whole platoon of city guards or something. Something I know, if they go to Akanûl they will not be welcomed there. The Akanûlans were slaves themselves while in Abeir, and they dislike the slaver culture of Calimshan. The Shyrans would be welcomed there, tho.
As for the coast lands, Unther definitely makes up the coast north of the delta of the Alamber. But the southern coast is definitely Tymantheran territory. Djerad Kethendi is just in the opposite coast of Unthalass, and the Untherans are unable to defeat Vivesh Nannari (Nanna-Sin) as per the SCAG. If you have BRJ proto-map of Tymanther, perhaps Unther currently goes from Unthalass' bay up north to Faol Egurod.
As for Tymanther, the SCAG says the dragonborn expanded around Ash Lake and south of it. Perhaps they surrendered their northern lands?
As for Arush Vayem, it wasn't sent to Abeir, as the novel depicted it in Toril after the transferring of lands.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Who occupied that area? Is it more dragonborn?
In Abeir? IIRC, this was part of Shyr, or the territory of the Dream Giants.
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Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2020 : 02:56:07
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Well, portions of Unther may have returned, so some of the cities that LEFT may have come BACK whole. Unthalass though was in ruins in Toril, so they have to rebuild that. But, Messemprar in theory might be returned (and I only picked that one, because I don't want to pull up the map). I say that, because I thought that some things disappeared rather than being destroyed. Might be wrong.
His army though was made up of freed folk I thought.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2020 : 03:29:48
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| "Free folk". All of them were given the option of following Gilgeam and rebel against the genasi, or die (at the hands of Gilgeam). This was revealed by Namshita after she, Mehen and Dumuzi unmasked Zilla (the lamia queen of Unthalass). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2020 : 16:28:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
"Free folk". All of them were given the option of following Gilgeam and rebel against the genasi, or die (at the hands of Gilgeam). This was revealed by Namshita after she, Mehen and Dumuzi unmasked Zilla (the lamia queen of Unthalass).
Gotcha, so if put into another parlance... they were conscripted to serve in the military "in service to their country", and anyone who didn't opt to serve would essentially be branded a traitor. I only try to word it that way to kind of show the difference between that and slavery, because in theory at the end of the day, they would have been free to go on with their lives (in service to the country mind you). In other words, if they wanted to become a farmer, they could. If they wanted to become a blacksmith, they could. It wouldn't be something where they'd be assigned a job by an overseer, and they wouldn't necessarily be whipped if they didn't do this job that they didn't want well. They would eventually be expected to supply their own sustenance and no longer be "a ward of the state" per se.
In some ways, what happened to them might be considered similar to the populace of America during say the world wars. They were chosen to go to war, and if they didn't they'd face "issues". The issues of modern day are more lenient than those terms offered by Gilgeam, but at the same time, he didn't have the option of a prison to put them in. Not saying he's better at all, just trying to point out the differences between what he did and slavery.
Oh, and just to get back to the dragonborn, I'm surprised that its your take that you want the southern half to be for the dragonborn. That being said, either direction could work, and I guess it makes just as much sense. In fact, this allows Unther to obtain more of its "traditional" lands. It might be interesting though if some portion of Tymanther survives "separated" from its southern faction, and perhaps moves into the riders to the sky mountains or into the methwood for security reasons (to note the methwood might put them in conflict with some elves). There's also some half-drow and troll communities in the riders to the sky mountains, so perhaps they might run them out and take up residence in their homes or find and occupy some old aarakocra ruins that are possibly hard for humans to access (and maybe the dragonborn learn to fly the Tuuru….or didn't the dragonborn have some kind of special mount that flew?). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2020 : 17:04:30
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Well, it's what I (and others, if I'm reading certain DM's Guild product correctly) understood by reading the SCAG. That Unther got the north and Tymanther got the south (that coincidentally was the region that got the bulk of development during 4e). You made me realize that this is not what logically should happened given the facts revealed in the novel. However, given how 5e is all about "return to 2e status even if it makes no sense"... well, that is what may be in a future official book dealing with this region.
And yes, dragonborn have giant bats (dire bats?) as flying mounts. Though, their use is exclusively of the military. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2020 : 21:56:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Well, it's what I (and others, if I'm reading certain DM's Guild product correctly) understood by reading the SCAG. That Unther got the north and Tymanther got the south (that coincidentally was the region that got the bulk of development during 4e). You made me realize that this is not what logically should happened given the facts revealed in the novel. However, given how 5e is all about "return to 2e status even if it makes no sense"... well, that is what may be in a future official book dealing with this region.
And yes, dragonborn have giant bats (dire bats?) as flying mounts. Though, their use is exclusively of the military.
Ok, working from that idea then (that they have the southlands opening into the Shaar, but that they also might have some people in the north fleeing to the riders to the sky mountains), giant bats and Tuuru would both make excellent mounts for them.... especially if some of them start taking over upperdark settlements in the mountains. I see this as an opportunity to make 2 different communities of dragonborn that are relatively close, but still separate. If they use their flying mounts, they could control former aarakocra settlements (to note it would appear the aarakocra moved to southern Chessenta, since during the spellplague an earthmote containing them was down there), and bats in a cave environment also makes sense if they took over some settlements of half-drow or perhaps caves that former bandits may have been living in. These dragonborn may enjoy the "change" that this new lifestyle affords them, perhaps more of a freedom from the requirements of clan, etc...
Ironically, I could see these same dragonborn coming into contact with the duergar a bit lower in the mountains and not necessarily seeing them as wholly evil (depending on how much the two cultures meet of each other). The duergar, at a glance, are a very honorable and hard working people. Though they do take slaves, those same slaves may not generally be seen by outsiders, as they may be in mines, etc... doing drudge work. Perhaps something of a trade arrangement might start between the two, as the dragonborn may not truly know who they are dealing with (i.e. they may think them just another clan of dwarves).
If portions of Abeir above the smoking mountains exchanged, and that included a clan of Abeiran stone giants as well, I could see these giants getting along with the dragonborn and possibly setting amongst them in the mountains. Perhaps portions of the Methwood and Methmere and the Maw of the Godswallower are replaced with moutains from Abeir. If we did do that, I would perhaps be interested in putting my Abeiran Gargoyles and Abeiran Rock Trolls in these mountains. In fact, I could see the honorable dragonborn and the Abeiran Gargoyles getting along quite well, and each group helping protect the other while the other sleeps (Abeiran Gargoyles being stone by day until the sun sets).
The point of this, of course, would be to take a region and develop it in such a way that its less "a human empire here" and more of "a fantasy realm down in this corner".
From Old Empires on the Riders to the Sky Mountains
This mountain chain is on the southeastern border of Chessenta. These are mostly hills ranging between 3,000 and 5,000 feet in height. On the southern end are a number of cliffs that are home to the tuuru, a race of giant birdlike lizards (pteranodons). Legends exist that in ancient days these huge birds were used as mounts by the warriors of Unther. Given the size, weight, and strength of the pteranodons, it is doubtful that they could support a human rider; either larger varieties once existed or the legend is a hoax.
There are also the ruins of an ancient aarakocra civilization on the slopes, but this tribe was hunted to extinction a century ago for sport by mercenaries from Chessenta.
The eastern portions of the Riders to the Sky have mostly been cleared, though some bandit and outlaw tribes use them as bases to wage raids on Unther and Chessenta. The western portions, along the edge of the Winding River, are much wilder. There are troll villages, and duergar inhabit underground caverns.
Half-drow who were exiled from Yuirwood long ago are rumored to live among the trolls. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 24 Jul 2020 21:58:01 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2020 : 22:18:56
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Also, perhaps amongst the aarakocra civilization's ruins are things like mosaics on their walls or somesuch that portray aarakocra and dragonborn in conflict, a portal, and the aarakocra using the portal. Perhaps there are dragons seen working with the creatures on both sides, or perhaps not. The people of Unther might have misunderstood these drawings and assumed that the dragonborn were some kind of troops of Tiamat, etc... This might be what attracts the dragonborn to delve these ruins more closely, and ultimately leads them to discovering a portal to Coliar. A portal connection should only be able to be opened on certain dates and only for a limited time, to prevent the possibility of an interplanetary war. It would also allow for a slow meeting between the two groups, with say a few hundred dragonborn being able to traverse in either direction, etc.. or even less if trade goods transition across the link.
Also, on the idea of my homebrew Abeiran Gargoyles and Trolls coming through, they might especially favor the underdark dwellings of half-drow and trolls. They might even be disgusted by regular trolls of Toril (my idea of Abeiran trolls is more like the trolls you see in Trollhunters cartoon and more the classical view of a troll as being large, ogrish, and somewhat dim but not evil to its core). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 24 Jul 2020 22:23:51 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2020 : 18:18:52
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It's interesting that you mention the Underdark, because according to the LFR fluff for Tymanther, there are ruins of Tymanchebar buried under that area. I was even thinking into place legendary Djerad Kusold buried near Djerad Thymar. So, there is a lot of dragonborn stuff for this area regardless of Sunderings.
BTW, I'm not familiar with Trollhunters series. When I think about non-evil trolls, I usually think in Warcraftian trolls. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2020 : 19:22:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
It's interesting that you mention the Underdark, because according to the LFR fluff for Tymanther, there are ruins of Tymanchebar buried under that area. I was even thinking into place legendary buried near Djerad Thymar. So, there is a lot of dragonborn stuff for this area regardless of Sunderings.
BTW, I'm not familiar with Trollhunters series. When I think about non-evil trolls, I usually think in Warcraftian trolls.
Raised my interest.... ruins of Tymanchebar buried under what area exactly? Under the riders to the sky mountains? Isn't Djerad Kusold in Laerakond?
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Djerad_Kusold
As to the idea of the Abeiran Trolls / Trollhunters series... picture an ogre sized creature, with skin that has a rocky texture, possibly gems embedded in it, and possibly runes or swirls in it. In many ways, the "stone giants" that were shown in the novels could somewhat resemble these creatures. These would simply be smaller (i.e. like size large and maybe all of 6 to 10 feet tall).
Here's some general pictures that match the idea I'm thinking.
https://talesofarcadia.fandom.com/wiki/Gunmar
https://talesofarcadia.fandom.com/wiki/Vendel
https://talesofarcadia.fandom.com/wiki/AAARRRGGHH!!!
https://talesofarcadia.fandom.com/wiki/Bular
https://talesofarcadia.fandom.com/wiki/Bagdwella
https://talesofarcadia.fandom.com/wiki/Blungo
The main difference between the trolls and the gargoyles being gargoyles are smaller and more nimble and can fly. However, even if smaller than trolls, they're still built like a stocky human.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2020 : 20:06:19
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Raised my interest.... ruins of Tymanchebar buried under what area exactly? Under the riders to the sky mountains? Isn't Djerad Kusold in Laerakond?
Well, the info is not that clear. It only mentions that many dragonborn cities were sent to Unther during the Spellplague, and now lie buried and monster-infested. This is somehow confirmed in Ashes of the Tyrant when Ashoka tells the story of Thymara. She mentions that many of the "smaller djeradi" were transported to Toril by the Spellplague. So, I guess they are scattered all over the region. I used this plot to export Ustraternes (a dragonborn ruin from a core adventure in Dungeon 165) to my campaign.
As for Djerad Kusold, yes, it's supposed to be in Laerakond. Heck, it wasn't even located near old Tymanchebar. But there is not much lore about it, and I feel would be a waste just to ignore this plot hook.
So, we know that it was buried by "powerful Dawn Titan magic", but what if Melauthaur didn't buried it, but instead whisked it away? He wanted to get rid of these pesky dragonborn rebels and their dragonbane amber. And, since this happened during the Wailing Years and the Spellplague was still active, what if the magic sent it to Tymanther instead? It can be located anywhere below Tymanther. The Smoking Mountains, the Riders to the Sky...
I feel I can easily transform it into a megadungeon of sorts. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 25 Jul 2020 20:08:32 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2020 : 23:16:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Raised my interest.... ruins of Tymanchebar buried under what area exactly? Under the riders to the sky mountains? Isn't Djerad Kusold in Laerakond?
Well, the info is not that clear. It only mentions that many dragonborn cities were sent to Unther during the Spellplague, and now lie buried and monster-infested. This is somehow confirmed in Ashes of the Tyrant when Ashoka tells the story of Thymara. She mentions that many of the "smaller djeradi" were transported to Toril by the Spellplague. So, I guess they are scattered all over the region. I used this plot to export Ustraternes (a dragonborn ruin from a core adventure in Dungeon 165) to my campaign.
As for Djerad Kusold, yes, it's supposed to be in Laerakond. Heck, it wasn't even located near old Tymanchebar. But there is not much lore about it, and I feel would be a waste just to ignore this plot hook.
So, we know that it was buried by "powerful Dawn Titan magic", but what if Melauthaur didn't buried it, but instead whisked it away? He wanted to get rid of these pesky dragonborn rebels and their dragonbane amber. And, since this happened during the Wailing Years and the Spellplague was still active, what if the magic sent it to Tymanther instead? It can be located anywhere below Tymanther. The Smoking Mountains, the Riders to the Sky...
I feel I can easily transform it into a megadungeon of sorts.
Interesting idea, and I personally know next to nothing about the place that would have gotten whisked away. However, this would place it as having been "moved" to the Old Empires area for the last century, so that begs the question... why haven't they contacted Tymanther? Now, this isn't a big issue, because... well, its the underdark. But the question I put forth is how can we take that question... and turn its answer into something useful.
By THAT I mean, what if it DID transfer to beneath maybe the western slopes of the Riders to the Sky Mountains? What if its inhabitants were taken by the half-drow and troll inhabitants of the area as prisoners/slaves.... or if not them, perhaps they went deeper and were forced to take up residence with the duergar? If they were in the underdark with a bunch of "dragonbane amber", maybe they ran across some deep dragons and used it to kill them (and does this make a useful story for us)? Maybe those deep dragons (who can take on drow form, mind you) were involved with the drow colonies? Or what if thos dragonborn with the dragonbane amber got involved fighting against a temple of Tiamat? Or maybe they went into Threskel, where there's all these undead dragons trying to rule over the humans there, and they help clear house... and thus the humans and dragonborn of Threskel come to a consensus? In short, what sounds like a good story to you, and I'll see what I can think of to make it enhanced, and through collaboration make a good idea together. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2020 : 00:30:52
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Interesting idea, and I personally know next to nothing about the place that would have gotten whisked away.
There is not much about Djerad Kusold. We know it was the main clanhold (djerad) of the dragonborn rebels in Melabrauth, and it was destroyed during the chaotic Wailing Years when Melauthaur had enough with the pesky rebels.
So, this means this could be a completely different nation of dragonborn different to that of Tymanther. If the Kusoldi survived Melauthaur's attack, that is...
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
so that begs the question... why haven't they contacted Tymanther? Now, this isn't a big issue, because... well, its the underdark. But the question I put forth is how can we take that question... and turn its answer into something useful.
By THAT I mean, what if it DID transfer to beneath maybe the western slopes of the Riders to the Sky Mountains? What if its inhabitants were taken by the half-drow and troll inhabitants of the area as prisoners/slaves.... or if not them, perhaps they went deeper and were forced to take up residence with the duergar? If they were in the underdark with a bunch of "dragonbane amber", maybe they ran across some deep dragons and used it to kill them (and does this make a useful story for us)? Maybe those deep dragons (who can take on drow form, mind you) were involved with the drow colonies? Or what if thos dragonborn with the dragonbane amber got involved fighting against a temple of Tiamat? Or maybe they went into Threskel, where there's all these undead dragons trying to rule over the humans there, and they help clear house... and thus the humans and dragonborn of Threskel come to a consensus? In short, what sounds like a good story to you, and I'll see what I can think of to make it enhanced, and through collaboration make a good idea together.
Those are really interesting ideas. I need to process them, but I like the idea of the survivors (if any) having been trapped in the Underdark, and begin to contact the Tymantherans after all the chaos of the Second Sundering. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 26 Jul 2020 00:31:39 |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2020 : 10:36:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Interesting idea, and I personally know next to nothing about the place that would have gotten whisked away.
There is not much about Djerad Kusold. We know it was the main clanhold (djerad) of the dragonborn rebels in Melabrauth, and it was destroyed during the chaotic Wailing Years when Melauthaur had enough with the pesky rebels.
So, this means this could be a completely different nation of dragonborn different to that of Tymanther. If the Kusoldi survived Melauthaur's attack, that is...
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
so that begs the question... why haven't they contacted Tymanther? Now, this isn't a big issue, because... well, its the underdark. But the question I put forth is how can we take that question... and turn its answer into something useful.
By THAT I mean, what if it DID transfer to beneath maybe the western slopes of the Riders to the Sky Mountains? What if its inhabitants were taken by the half-drow and troll inhabitants of the area as prisoners/slaves.... or if not them, perhaps they went deeper and were forced to take up residence with the duergar? If they were in the underdark with a bunch of "dragonbane amber", maybe they ran across some deep dragons and used it to kill them (and does this make a useful story for us)? Maybe those deep dragons (who can take on drow form, mind you) were involved with the drow colonies? Or what if thos dragonborn with the dragonbane amber got involved fighting against a temple of Tiamat? Or maybe they went into Threskel, where there's all these undead dragons trying to rule over the humans there, and they help clear house... and thus the humans and dragonborn of Threskel come to a consensus? In short, what sounds like a good story to you, and I'll see what I can think of to make it enhanced, and through collaboration make a good idea together.
Those are really interesting ideas. I need to process them, but I like the idea of the survivors (if any) having been trapped in the Underdark, and begin to contact the Tymantherans after all the chaos of the Second Sundering.
Yep, a totally different nation which could be developed, and would actually have 100 years or so of back history to fill (CAVEAT: unless they've been in some kind of stasis/dream state). I too like the idea of them having been trapped, and this would be several generations removed where they may not have been able to process their normal holidays, express themselves, etc.... their children may have had to do ignoble things to survive.
Just to throw out there too, it may be something where some of the survivors of Tymanther in the north are the ones who show up and free them. Thus, they could be getting guided back to "the way" and reminded of their nobility.... or it could turn a whole other way and we find that the one's in the underdark have turned bad and their SAVIORS just released a great evil on the world. LOTS of possibilities. Let me know what you like, because honestly, I just think this would be fun to develop that area.
I will say that I'm more and more becoming enamored with the idea of there being portions of the methwood/ methmere/and maw of the godswallower coming over and them being even more mountains/hills. In short nothing big was ever developed in those areas, and I'm intrigued more with a rock person kingdom (goliaths would fit in well there too). In fact, it might be interesting if my version of Abeiran Gargoyles have been inhabiting the ruins of the Aarakocra civilization for some time, but unless one flies its hard to get to these ruins. Maybe its only been the last few years, or maybe they've kept themselves hidden for a while (and when someone does meet them they think they're normal gargoyles, since the big difference is their culture and their issues with sunlight). BTW, while I view Abeiran Gargoyles as more noble like the Disney ones, my view of Abeiran Rock Trolls is more of a self centered folk who keep to themselves in the earth, and which "eat" things other than flesh. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2020 : 21:31:03
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While I think about it, I'm going to share something I been wondering since I started my lore research about Tymanther: who might have become Vanquisher after Yrjixtilex Kallan's interim term ended. Who might have taken the 1488-1498 DR term?
If we go by the novel, Kallan said he was just for the interim period, and was willing to give the throne to a rightful candidate. So, unless he had a change of heart (very unlikely), the Vanquisher of 1492 should be someone else.
My guess is that, given the last events of TDYK, the most likely canditates to win are either Kepeshkmolik Uadjit (Dumuzi's mom, she is an accomplished diplomat; she features in Ashes and TDYK) or Daardendrien Medrash (hero of the Giant Invasion, killer of Gestaniius, and also contributed in the deaths/destruction of many other dragons, including Tchazzar, Skuthosiin and Alasklerbanbastos; features in the Brotherhood of the Griffon). Arjhani may be popular in the army, but everyone knows he is a jerk, and that he is only a Fenkenkabradon puppet. And I remember someone mentioned people was not too happy with Dokaan's leadership in the army.
Uadjit was the strongest candidate before the death of Tarhun, but her reputation got stained by Dumuzi being Chosen by Enlil. And I guess people is a little bit tired of Kepeshkmolik as Vanquishers at this point. Medrash has the same problem, as he is a paladin (of Torm and Bahamut). But he has the advantage of not being Kepeshkmolik.
After two Kepeshmoliks and one interim Yrjixtilex, war with Unther for the foreseeable future, I think Daardendrien stands a good chance of winning.
Who do you think has won? |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2020 : 22:38:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
On a side note:
With many Untherites returned, the followers of Bahamut could work behind the scenes to try and revive the faith of Marduk as a counter to potential schemes from the followers of Tiamat.
In the long game, a combined efforts of Marduk's faithful and Bahamut's faithful could have an era of peace and cooperation between Tymanther and Unther as an objective.
That's an interesting idea, and one I had been considering in the past. The only problem I saw with it was differentiating the worship with Enlil. I guess I just don't understand the actual differences much between Marduk and Enlil (though I get Bahamut as a justice god). Honestly though, since modern Untherites don't KNOW Marduk (he's been dead over two thousand years to them), I see them going towards another god from another pantheon UNLESS he had appeared to them in avatar/manifestation/lesser avatar type form while in Abeir and had helped them there. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2020 : 22:49:07
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| Hmmm, thinking on what Storyteller Hero asked and THEN thinking about that last question by Zeromarux makes me put the question of Marduk from another direction. What if the worship was via the humans living with the dragonborn being introduced by Medrash? For instance, Bahamut tells Daardendrien Medrash to tell the humans that he is Marduk, and maybe he does SOMETHING to provide proof of what he says. If this were the case, and the humans see Marduk and Enlil returning... well, aren't they a new clan who would also get to vote on the vanquisher? Or did they get subsidized by another clan? I forget. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2020 : 23:24:22
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
On a side note:
With many Untherites returned, the followers of Bahamut could work behind the scenes to try and revive the faith of Marduk as a counter to potential schemes from the followers of Tiamat.
In the long game, a combined efforts of Marduk's faithful and Bahamut's faithful could have an era of peace and cooperation between Tymanther and Unther as an objective.
That's an interesting idea, and one I had been considering in the past. The only problem I saw with it was differentiating the worship with Enlil. I guess I just don't understand the actual differences much between Marduk and Enlil (though I get Bahamut as a justice god). Honestly though, since modern Untherites don't KNOW Marduk (he's been dead over two thousand years to them), I see them going towards another god from another pantheon UNLESS he had appeared to them in avatar/manifestation/lesser avatar type form while in Abeir and had helped them there.
The actual difference between Marduk and Enlil? Or their differences in D&D? The two versions coincide in that Enlil is a storm god and a god of law, while Marduk is a hero god. Though in a point in history (real world history, I mean), Marduk inherited all of the traits of Enlil in ancient Mesopotamia. He eventually replaced Enlil in their state religion.
Anyways, in FR there is this town in Chessenta were Bahamut is worshiped as Marduk in 1480 DR, mentioned in the Backdrop: Chessenta article. So, I guess by now, this is where the worship of Marduk can re-start after the Second Sundering. Though, they are worshiping him as Bahamut, so at this point I guess Bahamut may have subsumed Marduk in the Realms.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Hmmm, thinking on what Storyteller Hero asked and THEN thinking about that last question by Zeromarux makes me put the question of Marduk from another direction. What if the worship was via the humans living with the dragonborn being introduced by Medrash? For instance, Bahamut tells Daardendrien Medrash to tell the humans that he is Marduk, and maybe he does SOMETHING to provide proof of what he says. If this were the case, and the humans see Marduk and Enlil returning... well, aren't they a new clan who would also get to vote on the vanquisher? Or did they get subsidized by another clan? I forget.
Yeah, they did created their only-humans clan, so I guess they have the same rights as the dragonborn.
As for the worship of Bahamut/Marduk, it's more likely that the Platinum Cadre do that. They may be reviled by many of the dragonborn, those bias aren't shared by humans. And the Platinum Cadre do help the people in need and that stuff, a situation that many of the Untheran refugees were thrown into after the war. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2020 : 23:25:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
While I think about it, I'm going to share something I been wondering since I started my lore research about Tymanther: who might have become Vanquisher after Yrjixtilex Kallan's interim term ended. Who might have taken the 1488-1498 DR term?
If we go by the novel, Kallan said he was just for the interim period, and was willing to give the throne to a rightful candidate. So, unless he had a change of heart (very unlikely), the Vanquisher of 1492 should be someone else.
My guess is that, given the last events of TDYK, the most likely canditates to win are either Kepeshkmolik Uadjit (Dumuzi's mom, she is an accomplished diplomat; she features in Ashes and TDYK) or Daardendrien Medrash (hero of the Giant Invasion, killer of Gestaniius, and also contributed in the deaths/destruction of many other dragons, including Tchazzar, Skuthosiin and Alasklerbanbastos; features in the Brotherhood of the Griffon). Arjhani may be popular in the army, but everyone knows he is a jerk, and that he is only a Fenkenkabradon puppet. And I remember someone mentioned people was not too happy with Dokaan's leadership in the army.
Uadjit was the strongest candidate before the death of Tarhun, but her reputation got stained by Dumuzi being Chosen by Enlil. And I guess people is a little bit tired of Kepeshkmolik as Vanquishers at this point. Medrash has the same problem, as he is a paladin (of Torm and Bahamut). But he has the advantage of not being Kepeshkmolik.
After two Kepeshmoliks and one interim Yrjixtilex, war with Unther for the foreseeable future, I think Daardendrien stands a good chance of winning.
Who do you think has won?
So, I went to the wiki, because a lot of this was hazy in my memory. One thing I think that might matter is that Namshita and the Untherans are a new clan. Namshita seems to have been very involved with Kepeshmolik, but this will be a few years down the road. I forget, how was the election handled? Was it via clan elders, democratic election across the whole city, something else? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2020 : 23:57:28
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The clan elders postulate a candidate, twho must have a career of 20 years on the Lance Defenders (plus, any other accomplishments will increase their chance), then they vote but they cannot vote for their own candidates. So, clan elders must vote for the candidate of another clan. The winner is the Vanquisher for the next 10 years.
As for Namshita, she at least owes to Kepeshkmolik, Shestandeliath and Verthisathurgiesh (and IIRC, also Churirajachi). So, it will be not that easy for her. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 27 Jul 2020 23:59:57 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2020 : 10:39:25
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So, I was thinking about your question more. I could easily see them putting in a requirement that an "elder" voting or the Vanquisher then might need to have a certain amount of time in their society as well, the more that I think on it, before they get a chance to vote. That should be understandable even to the humans. They might gripe, but...
I see things going one of two ways. IF the society will suddenly accept religious worship (which is a possibility mind you), then I'm seeing Medrash. However, we're talking a few years down the road, and as we can see in our own society, it only takes a few years for someone new to grab the limelight. Perhaps it might be better to have a new up and comer developed. Personally, I like the idea of someone who mixes magic and weapon use, but not divine magic or pact magic. So, either a bard, wizard, or sorcerer with some skill as a fighter. Maybe someone who steps up during the conflict with Unther. Hells, maybe even Azuth blesses the city for their aid in freeing him and the newest Vanquisher has some artifact of his, maybe even going so far as having a dragonborn magister (while the magister is associated to Mystra and Azuth, I think that dragonborn would have less of a problem with that than a priest.... they'd maybe view it more like a bestowed honor for hard work). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2020 : 15:16:45
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The problem with that, is that this new candidate should have done something really remarkable to win against two really accomplished dragonborn. In the span of just a year. And if the guy has tge blessing of Azuth (or any other god, for the matter), then this person will have the same problem that Medrash and Uadjit face. As you said, Thymari society is still not ready for that.
As for the Elder's vote, I agree with you. I guess Namshita will have a vote in the 1498-1508 period, not before.
Talking about Azuth, yeah I guess Azuth may have given a special care to catter dragonborn followers. Heck, given that Djerad Thymar has enshrined his former Chosen as a state hero, I guess the Azuthian (sp?) Church may have turned Djerad Thymar into some sort of holy pilgrimage site.
Same with Asmodeus. He literally owes his sorry ass to a Thymari. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 28 Jul 2020 15:47:01 |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2020 : 20:45:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Anyways, in FR there is this town in Chessenta were Bahamut is worshiped as Marduk in 1480 DR, mentioned in the Backdrop: Chessenta article. So, I guess by now, this is where the worship of Marduk can re-start after the Second Sundering. Though, they are worshiping him as Bahamut, so at this point I guess Bahamut may have subsumed Marduk in the Realms.
3e-canonically, as far back as –2087 DR.
Per Dragons of Faerun (p.8):
"Tiamat battled an Untheric alias of Bahamut, known as Marduk the Justice Bringer, time and again, but neither wyrm could prevail."
The Grand History of the Realms (p.33):
"Tiamat battles an Untheric alias of Bahamut, known as Marduk the Justice Bringer, time and again, but neither wyrm can prevail." |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2020 : 13:22:55
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quote:
Originally posted by see
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Anyways, in FR there is this town in Chessenta were Bahamut is worshiped as Marduk in 1480 DR, mentioned in the Backdrop: Chessenta article. So, I guess by now, this is where the worship of Marduk can re-start after the Second Sundering. Though, they are worshiping him as Bahamut, so at this point I guess Bahamut may have subsumed Marduk in the Realms.
3e-canonically, as far back as –2087 DR.
Per Dragons of Faerun (p.8):
"Tiamat battled an Untheric alias of Bahamut, known as Marduk the Justice Bringer, time and again, but neither wyrm could prevail."
The Grand History of the Realms (p.33):
"Tiamat battles an Untheric alias of Bahamut, known as Marduk the Justice Bringer, time and again, but neither wyrm can prevail."
Well yes, official materials conflated Marduk and Bahamut for some time, although Ed sees them as separate:
https://twitter.com/crabgao/status/1180307998532485131
quote:
#23376;#34394;#23376;
@crabgao
·
Oct 5, 2019
Replying to @TheEdVerse
As I remember, Marduk is a manifestation of Bahamut. Is that means Bahamut the Lesser Power rules de facto a large part of Arcadia?
Ed Greenwood
@TheEdVerse
No, it means Marduk rules a small, walled-off part of Arcadia.
#Realmslore
4:34 AM · Oct 5, 2019
It seems this originated from Thomas Costa's idea on the Forgotten Realms Mailing List of Bahamut taking on the alias of Marduk (in fairly recent times though, or at least after Marduk's death during his fight with Tiamat):
http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0204c&L=realms-l&D=1&F=&S=&P=7268" target="_blank">link
And/Or from the "A Tiefling's Exultation" fansite:
https://www.oocities.org/area51/vault/9974/
https://web.archive.org/web/20091027133636/http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/9974/bahamut.htm
Curiously though, Marduk does have a connection to Azuth and Savras:
https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1180287070775971840
quote:
2)
And can tell you that I saw most of the first layer of ARCADIA as being ruled by the deity Clangeddin Silverbeard, with another part of it ruled by Marduk.
As my conception of the Outer Planes developed detail and depth, I envisaged the second layer being ruled by the Mulhorandi (Egyptian) deities (Ra, Isis, Osiris, and Horus-Re), with Azuth SECRETLY controlling conditions in Arcadia from behind the scenes (from his abode on the second layer) rather than “ruling.” Marduk was like a ‘mad bull’ deity who challenged and fought any deity he detected, so Azuth kept him deceived and walled away. Savras kept trying to free Marduk—which meant Savras got attacked by Marduk repeatedly, and this weakened Savras, so he rarely challenged Azuth.
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Edited by - Baltas on 31 Jul 2020 13:52:37 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2020 : 16:36:57
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Now that I think about it, what if the entity we know today as Bahamut is the result of the fusion of Marduk (at leat, his Untheran manifestation) and the draconic deity known as Xymor. That'd explain the inconsistencies, and it's not the first time something like that would've happened. We know that canonically, the current Tiamat is the resulting being born from the (unwilling) fusion of Sumerian Tiamat (or at least, her Untheran manifestation) and the original draconic Tiamat (who may have had another name back then...).
quote:
Originally posted by see
3e-canonically, as far back as –2087 DR.
Per Dragons of Faerun (p.8):
"Tiamat battled an Untheric alias of Bahamut, known as Marduk the Justice Bringer, time and again, but neither wyrm could prevail."
The Grand History of the Realms (p.33):
"Tiamat battles an Untheric alias of Bahamut, known as Marduk the Justice Bringer, time and again, but neither wyrm can prevail."
I was talking of the more modern version of Marduk's cult, that is vastly different from the one you mention. I mean, Marduk's Church disappeared completely after the Godswar, and while a few Untheri may have remembered him in that cult of the old gods, Unther dissapeared as a culture a century ago* (at least, from the official perspective). The cult of Marduk today (1490s) is more like Bahamut's in all but name. Which means Bahamut may as well have subsumed/replaced that deity completely. At least in the Realms.
*You may point that Unther returned after the Second Sundering, but I wonder how much of the old culture of Unther survived its trip to Abeir. Some stuff must have changed. For instance, a lot of the new Untherans are tired of being slaves, while the Untherans of old loved to be enslaved... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2020 : 17:01:06
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Dunno, it was basically stated in older editions (1e and 2e era), that the Mesopotamian Tiamat, and Draconic Tiamat, started out as one and the same (or at least are or were one for a very long time), with Marduk fighting with Tiamat on Outer Planes and alternate Primes, even before the Untheri gods, were reunited with their planar selves.
(Although one could argue Tiamat and Marduk re-united earlier with their planar selves, due to their manifestations deaths.)
Brian R. James gave a suggestion for Tiamat's past name (Yaldabaoth) The Candlekeep Compendium Volume IV (Reign of Dragons), but the article had her stated to have become pat of the Mespotomian pantheon before the time of Unther and Mulhorand, and Yaldabaoth actually resembled the Meposotamian Tiamat - there being that Yaldabaoth was "Queen of of the Primordial Seas", and that "Tiamat was once known as Yaldabaoth, a benevolent demipower of oceans and seawurms."
http://www.candlekeep.com/compendium/
In Dragon Dragon #260, detailing the children of Bahamut and Tiamat, An-Ur (named and based after An/Anu and the city of Ur), was described Tiamat's first child, and a visibly draconic being.
(From who I think in D&D, An, Anu and Anshar probably fragmented from, or might be the Sumerian An).
With the return of Nanna-Sin and Enlil (as described in "Ashes of the Tyrant" and "The Devil You Know" by Erin M. Evan), both assumed draconic form (ie Nanna-Sin of a Dragon-Turtle, Enlil of a black scaled Dragonborn), which could be seen as simply fitting with Dragonborn, but could as well be (and I it's intentionally write so by Erin M. Evans, possibly at WoTC behest) to be them tapping into their "descent" from Tiamat.
With Xymor and Marduk, it is though more possible that Bahamut is a fusion of the two. |
Edited by - Baltas on 31 Jul 2020 17:03:41 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2020 : 17:18:47
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| Well, in The Devil You Know (5e novel), Enlil states that Untheric Tiamat was subsumed by "something older" than them, when the Untheran gods where trying to make a ritual to make "Tiamat's chaos balance the order the other gods have", when they were creating Zigguraxus. And this was in answer to Dumuzi's question about why Tiamat (the draconic one) was part of the Untheric pantheon. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 31 Jul 2020 17:25:29 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2020 : 17:36:22
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Hmm, yeah I remember it. The exact wording in the "The Devil You Know" was:
quote:
Why would he? he supposes. Gods are not like mortals. "And Tiamat?"
A point of balance in the beginning, Enlil said. If there is order, then, too, must there be chaos. But this plane fed her worst nature, merged her with something too great to be balanced by us alone.
I thought the process merged the (Chaotic Neutral?) Mesopotamian (Babylonian?) Tiamat with her more malicious, present before in Realmspace aspect (again, Mesopotamian gods are known to fragment) when she came into Toril, or even something else (that made Tiamat even worse), although in context, it's more probable it indeed "The Devil You Know" did mean the two were originally separate, but merged when the Untheric gods came to Toril. |
Edited by - Baltas on 31 Jul 2020 18:26:54 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2020 : 18:28:14
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Yeah, that part. I can see Marduk willing to fuse with another god to defeat his enemy, that now is more powerful than the whole pantheon, even if it's a dragon god (as it seems that, unlike historical Marduk, D&D Marduk seems to dislike dragons). Though, perhaps it happened after Marduk died in the Battle of the Gods. Perhaps Xymor subsumed the essence of dead Marduk to protect it (as Gilgeam wanted it destroyed, IIRC), or perhaps it happened willingly, when a fatally wounded Marduk wanted Xymor to power up to be on equal grounds with their now shared foe. Something like what Nail did with Piccolo in DBZ during Frieza's arc. This would explain why the resulting being, Bahamut, remained a draconic entity, as Xymor was the "dominant" side of the fusion.
This can also explain why the cult of Xymor turned into the cult of Bahamut, something that seems to be recent, at least from the perspective of a dragon, as gold dragons still use the name of Xymor when they refer to Bahamut. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 31 Jul 2020 18:29:32 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2020 : 20:02:27
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Yup, and when one thinks about it, it could be even that Marduk's association with Dragons, and them being his symbol, in the D&D version of our world, was due to Xymor and Marduk merging.
(Especially that it does seem that what happened on Toril, affected the planar Mesopotamian gods/pantheons). |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2020 : 22:02:11
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There is another path for this. If there is ANY pantheon in the realms whose majority of people could easily take on the form of ascended dragons its the Untheric one. They could almost all be primordials as well. Its the "later" generations of them (Gilgeam/Gilgamesh, Ramman, Ishtar, Utu, Inanna, etc...) that appear more human. To note, Utu and Inanna are brother and sister, but children of Nanna-Sin. On the evil side of things, they appear to be more fiendish than draconic or primordial (with Nergal being forced to descend to the Underworld as punishment and become Ereshkigal's husband…).
Assuran of the Three Thunders.... symbol has 3 lightning bolts. Dragons used to be able to only breathe 3 times.
Anu (which is an alias of Enlil... whether that means one took over the other or somesuch, don't know) - Anu's picture in the old Deities & Demigods has a dragon for his shadow and one of his specific powers is the ability to call on a dragon of ANY type to fight for him.
Marduk is specifically called out as appearing non-human with flame pouring out of his mouth and red skin, and he's a god of various elements
Girru is a god of fire, and could therefore be another ascended dragon.
To fit into this, there's other ascended dragons from the area (Tchazzar and the Millenium Dragon is on the path to ascension with worshippers in the city of Dalath in Unther). So, perhaps the manifestations of some of the gods were riding on draconic bodies with the ability to shapechange to a form more reminiscent of their worshippers.
By the way, I'm still not convinced that several of the actual Netherese pantheon wasn't actually imported Mulan gods or gods found in the Raurin area long ago, and part of the reason that a lot of them got new names is that the corresponding gods died. We have Jergal, who easily fits Nergal (even being a god of sunsets). We have Amaunator who could easily be a fusing of Amon-Ra (as another name of Ra) with At'ar (another sun goddess), which fits somewhat with why At'ar is still around but Amaunator is gone (when Ra died, then entity that was Amaunator slowly began to break down). Shar and Anshar of Babylonian myth sound like the same being, but not sure if Anshar was wroshipped in the realms. We have it that Nanna-Sin has a link to Selune. There are a few more that are more of a stretch only because there's not a huge linkage (ki as Jannath for example). Tyche was a god worshipped canonically in the Raurin. Targus as a multi-handed god of war could definitely fit the gods of the Raurin/Utter East/southern hordelands like other Hindu gods. The only 3 that don't have a direct correlation would be Mystryl, Kozah (later corrupted into Talos and he loses an eye), and Moander. It may be that soon after becoming a magical society, the Netherese visited the Imaskari societies, and later the societies that resulted when the Imaskari fell apart, and perhaps some of them were imported back (the main ones I see would be Jergal, Amaunator, Tyche, and Targus as coming from the lands of Imaskar). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Tymanther and Unther post-SS and other stuff
