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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Jul 2020 : 01:12:02
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So I've given this concept a lot of thought. Pushed by the various social media outlets I'm a part of, I see a prevailing notion that the Forgotten Realms was severely wounded with the creation and push of the 4th Edition system. That because the game of D&D changed drastically, so too must the Realms to "keep up" and maintain continuity with the system.
Hogwash.
I believe this is grossly inaccurate, unnecessary, and -at worst-scapegoats the system into the failings of the changes pushed at the time to appease many naysayers of the Realms, for simply the idea to change it as much as possible at a time when it's the "easiest" to get new people. Some of those I talk with do agree - on some merits - that issues like the Time-Jump really helped newer people get into the Setting because they didn't have to push though the decades of lore. That because there were less "NPCs" around, they felt their PCs presence was not just helpful but nigh necessary to the story. But these are far in the minority of those who value the Realms in their entirety. While I don't discount their desires at all, actually I see a lot of understanding in them, I think they could've gotten on well enough with changes to the Setting that simply don't focus much on the NPCs as much.
So in this thread, I'd like to make connections to the Realms and the system's mechanics that doesn't invalidate previous lore. Doesn't throw out the NPCs or the time or history of the Realms. I'd like to take elements [of the System] which people have issues with and reconcile it with Canon lore. This means I'm taking the "Alternative Timeline" approach, assuming that something diverted the worst of the Spellplague and Raging blue fire, keeping it a mild - if inconvenient - situation that was quickly resolved and life went back to normal sometimes in the late 1385/1386 DR years.
I'll start-off with some big glaring ones. Now my Canon knowledge isn't great. I mostly got info from late late 2E and Baldur's Gate video games and into 3e/3.5 supplements. So this is a project that I really would love help on. So here it goes:
Ancestry: 4th Edition brought into the Player's Handbook three distinct ancestries for Characters to use: The Dragonborn, Eladrin, and Tiefling. While having a presence in previous incarnations of D&D and the Forgotten Realms, never-before where they detailed in this particular light.
- Dragonborn:
The FRCS says that these creatures came from the sister-world of Abeir that's transposed onto Toril. Regions called Returned Abeir, Akanūl, and Tymanther became apart of the Realms, bringing these Dragon-beings face to face with those native to Toril.
Alternative: What-if, instead of Abeir emerging as a phased world, we simply give more credence to the Drgaonborn/Dragon-kin already present in the Realms. Previous supplements -Races of the Dragon clearly show there's a method to create dragonborn via the Ritual to Bahamut. These Dragonborn type are still in the Realms as far as I know, so why not play them up more. Give them more substance. Maybe in the process, the Cult of the Dragon found the ritual and in their attempts to make evil ones, out came Dragonborn of a different nature? Also, Dragon-kin (Monsters of Faerūn) get little love in terms of lore or "screen time." Maybe these are the ones who've the Cult of the Dragon created, but failed to control and are now loose among the Realms?
- Eladrin:
One of the more serious issues is the ease of which Eladrin become prominent in the Realms. Memory serves that Eladrin are near Celestial beings with a hierarchy of their own, hailing Arvandor as their home. But when Araevin Teshurr performed the high magic ritual known as the Telmiirkara Neshyrr, he himselve become something of an Eladrin, taking on the celestial empowerment of those people. Since the Spellplague and the undoing of the Weave, the boundaries of Toril and the Feywild have become increasingly closer and phased in with one another in certain places. This shift with Faerie allowed, or rather pushed, Moon and Sun (and presumably Star) elves into the arena of "Eladrin" like Araevin. Now from what I've read MOST people of the Realms still refer to such beings as their normal known ancestry of the Moon and Sun elves - despite a slight change to their pupils.
Alternative: Instead of the Spellplague being what brought
Faerie closer, Araevin's ritual was FAR stronger than conceived, causing the closeness Toril has with Faerie. Taking a concept of 5E, perhaps not "All" Moon and Sun elves underwent/desired the transformation or maybe they sought it out after sensing the closeness of the planes. This would allow certain members of people to access the effects of the 4E Core Eladrin abilities. Others would ignore or otherwise continue on with their lives and remaining like the Elves of the 4E Core book. Other thoughts and suggestions?
- Tieflings:
So these people got a change as many of them were bent to Asmodeous-spawned beings, instead of the Outsider-typed "Planetouched" of old. Honestly, I think there's enough here that you can do either/or depending on your own artistic style and ideas. Heck I think you could even do a Power-Swap with their Infernal Wrath racial power and say Globe of Darkness that Drow can use if you want more of that sort of 2e/3E feeling.
So what areas of the 4E "Rules" would you want to help reconcile with the Setting?
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Edited by - Diffan on 20 Jul 2020 02:50:07
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2020 : 03:23:12
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One of my thoughts for alternate 4E dragonborn was that one of the Netherese enclaves managed to come down safely on one of the undescribed continents, and through some means that I never quite worked out, became dragonborn. I was leaning towards them being a magically-produced race, maybe something like half-dragons but not involving draconic nookie, that eventually replaced the humans. Maybe the dragonborn were made to be warriors, and they were the only survivors of the war they were made for. Or maybe the dragonborn were made, and then a plague wiped out the humans, leaving the dragonborn behind...
Never really came up with something I liked on that one, and re-introducing them to the Realms wasn't something I had gotten to. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2020 : 03:34:43
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Personally, I don't see any problems with the lore of the 4e Realms. But, I'm one of those who originally shunned the Realms for its "tons of old* lore dependency", and the changes brought in 4e were what made me interested in the setting in the first place.
That said:
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
[list]Alternative: What-if, instead of Abeir emerging as a phased world, we simply give more credence to the Drgaonborn/Dragon-kin already present in the Realms. Previous supplements -Races of the Dragon clearly show there's a method to create dragonborn via the Ritual to Bahamut. These Dragonborn type are still in the Realms as far as I know, so why not play them up more. Give them more substance. Maybe in the process, the Cult of the Dragon found the ritual and in their attempts to make evil ones, out came Dragonborn of a different nature? Also, Dragon-kin (Monsters of Faer#251;n) get little love in terms of lore or "screen time." Maybe these are the ones who've the Cult of the Dragon created, but failed to control and are now loose among the Realms?
I don't like this one. Putting this as the origins of the dragonborn would lock them into a certain alignment, which would put them on the same problem the orcs and the drow have.
I would just make them immigrants from another continent. For example, in Ed's Realms, Returned Abeir is just another continent of Toril. They can come from there. Granted, Maztica don't exist in his Realms, but you can put dragonborn in any other unexplored land and so be it.
So, they can still have their unique culture and history, and not be locked into those problematic mono-alignments.
*And with old, I mean not only the loads of material from the older editions you need to be rich to get it all, but also the problematic stuff old lore is usually loaded with. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 20 Jul 2020 03:35:17 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2020 : 05:53:53
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I don't believe lore should be twisted to accommodate games mechanics.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2020 : 07:32:48
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Sure, it would have been quite easy to handle the 3e-4e transition in the Realms the same way that 2e-3e was handled.
For example, dragonborn PCs? Your choices include: emphasizing existing 3.x dragonkin and dragonborn; immigrants from the un-detailed continents; a returned city previously sealed in the Underdark/under a glacier/in a demiplane from the Dawn Age; some sort of ritual that invokes Tiamat and/or Bahamut-Xymor-Marduk in Unther that transforms the members of the anti-Mulhorand resistance; a mystical backlash from the end of the Dracorage mythal in 1373; a side-effect of the 1374 Tearfall; the opening of a large, extended-duration portal to a world with lots of dragonborn . . .
When the team that did 4e radically changed the Realms, it was not because they wanted to justify the 4e PHB character options and mechanics, any more than the reason they changed all sorts of default D&D lore (Where do blue dragons live? What's the origin of driders?) was to justify the 4e PHB character options and mechanics. They just decided they knew better. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2020 : 10:36:13
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I don't believe lore should be twisted to accommodate games mechanics.
-- George Krashos
I agree, I think we can use established lore that's already set a precedent to create a connection with the game's mechanics. Dragonborn, for example, already has a set precedent with the source "Races of the Dragon" and I don't see anything that would suggest that this book wouldn't also have elements in the Forgotten Realms.
Further, we already have Half-Dragons and Dragon-kin as creatures in established FR lore. To me, it makes better sense to use these elements in presenting the Core Dragonborn of 4E into the Realms rather than shifting whole areas of another world (a seemingly unpopular idea by the likes of the dissenters). While Zeromaru X does have a decent reason for their appearance, I feel it's a bit too sudden. Like all at once this race just shows up from across the sea. I'd love to get more info as to why they're here now, where did they come from, etc. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2020 : 10:38:31
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quote:
Originally posted by see
For example, dragonborn PCs? Your choices include: emphasizing existing 3.x dragonkin and dragonborn; immigrants from the un-detailed continents; a returned city previously sealed in the Underdark/under a glacier/in a demiplane from the Dawn Age; some sort of ritual that invokes Tiamat and/or Bahamut-Xymor-Marduk in Unther that transforms the members of the anti-Mulhorand resistance; a mystical backlash from the end of the Dracorage mythal in 1373; a side-effect of the 1374 Tearfall; the opening of a large, extended-duration portal to a world with lots of dragonborn . . .
These are all great ideas and concepts! Thank you.
quote:
Originally posted by see
When the team that did 4e radically changed the Realms, it was not because they wanted to justify the 4e PHB character options and mechanics, any more than the reason they changed all sorts of default D&D lore (Where do blue dragons live? What's the origin of driders?) was to justify the 4e PHB character options and mechanics. They just decided they knew better.
See, I've noticed a different opinion on the subject. There are those that feel the changes from the system were too drastic and thus, required an In-Setting alteration to accommodate them. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2020 : 11:03:46
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quote:
Originally posted by see
some sort of ritual that invokes Tiamat and/or Bahamut-Xymor-Marduk in Unther that transforms the members of the anti-Mulhorand resistance;
I really like this one, myself.  |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2020 : 15:50:45
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quote:
Originally posted by see
Sure, it would have been quite easy to handle the 3e-4e transition in the Realms the same way that 2e-3e was handled.
For example, dragonborn PCs? Your choices include: emphasizing existing 3.x dragonkin and dragonborn; immigrants from the un-detailed continents; a returned city previously sealed in the Underdark/under a glacier/in a demiplane from the Dawn Age; some sort of ritual that invokes Tiamat and/or Bahamut-Xymor-Marduk in Unther that transforms the members of the anti-Mulhorand resistance; a mystical backlash from the end of the Dracorage mythal in 1373; a side-effect of the 1374 Tearfall; the opening of a large, extended-duration portal to a world with lots of dragonborn . . .
When the team that did 4e radically changed the Realms, it was not because they wanted to justify the 4e PHB character options and mechanics, any more than the reason they changed all sorts of default D&D lore (Where do blue dragons live? What's the origin of driders?) was to justify the 4e PHB character options and mechanics. They just decided they knew better.
Personally, on the dragonborn topic, one of the things is that they didn't exist in previous editions like 2e. However, we have a planet with "lizard folk" and "strange dragons". That planet is Coliar. I would have it that this planet has lizard folk, but I'd also have it having dragonborn. There may be portals between these worlds that exist or any number of other ways that you could transfer them.
By the way, if one wanted to have "dragon overlords" abusing these dragonborn, one would only need to twist the existing Coliar lore as well and not have this universal "neutral and good" influence on all dargons of Coliar. This world already venerates their dragons to a healthy degree. Hell, they even have a "weird sky" and "earthmotes" as well.
That being said, I've more than accepted the idea of the Spellplague and the follow up second Sundering. I also like the culture of dragonborn in Tymanther. I relish the idea of the intermixing of Mulan cultures and this dragonborn culture. I actually wish they had focused on having more dinosaurs appearing in the area between Unther and Chessenta as well. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 20 Jul 2020 15:54:29 |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2020 : 04:16:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
See, I've noticed a different opinion on the subject. There are those that feel the changes from the system were too drastic and thus, required an In-Setting alteration to accommodate them.
Yeah, I know people do seem to have that idea. Just was venting a bit, sorry. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2020 : 05:35:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I agree, I think we can use established lore that's already set a precedent to create a connection with the game's mechanics. Dragonborn, for example, already has a set precedent with the source "Races of the Dragon" and I don't see anything that would suggest that this book wouldn't also have elements in the Forgotten Realms.
Further, we already have Half-Dragons and Dragon-kin as creatures in established FR lore. To me, it makes better sense to use these elements in presenting the Core Dragonborn of 4E into the Realms rather than shifting whole areas of another world (a seemingly unpopular idea by the likes of the dissenters). While Zeromaru X does have a decent reason for their appearance, I feel it's a bit too sudden. Like all at once this race just shows up from across the sea. I'd love to get more info as to why they're here now, where did they come from, etc.
Yeah, but dragonborn aren't dragonkin (who are depicted as uncivilized evil monsters, in all the lore I've read about them; whereas dragonborn are quite civilized, even as slaves) or half-dragons (dragonborn are a true species, not hybrids). Even the dragonborn from Races of the Dragon are specifically said to be different to half-dragons.
You can ignore this, obviously, and try to shoehorn the lore of dragonkins and half-dragons to the dragonborn, but then you will be doing the same thing you're saying you're trying to avoid, invalidating the dragonborn lore. That this lore is more recent than most Realmslore doesn't make it less valid or something.
Now, there a more ways to bring the dragonborn to Faerūn without involving Abeir, but I think that would change their culture significantly. I mean, the dragonborn of the Realms are different to those from the core by the fact that they hate dragons and shun gods. This is a big difference that sets them apart from the "core" dragonborn. Making them all descendants from followers of Bahamut and Tiamat would change one of the fundamental details about their culture.
If you don't want Abeir to be involved, then I'd go with sleyvas' idea, and would make them immigrants from Coliar. Given how racist people is on the Realms, its not impossible for the humans who explore Realmspace to confuse them with just another kind of lizardfolk ("they are all scales, after all"). This is how they introduced the dragonborn to Eberron in 4e, for instance.
This would involve some magic event to bring them to Faerūn, obviously. You still need to wipe out Unther if you want to have Tymanther in your Realms.
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Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 21 Jul 2020 05:38:39 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2020 : 11:56:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I agree, I think we can use established lore that's already set a precedent to create a connection with the game's mechanics. Dragonborn, for example, already has a set precedent with the source "Races of the Dragon" and I don't see anything that would suggest that this book wouldn't also have elements in the Forgotten Realms.
Further, we already have Half-Dragons and Dragon-kin as creatures in established FR lore. To me, it makes better sense to use these elements in presenting the Core Dragonborn of 4E into the Realms rather than shifting whole areas of another world (a seemingly unpopular idea by the likes of the dissenters). While Zeromaru X does have a decent reason for their appearance, I feel it's a bit too sudden. Like all at once this race just shows up from across the sea. I'd love to get more info as to why they're here now, where did they come from, etc.
Yeah, but dragonborn aren't dragonkin (who are depicted as uncivilized evil monsters, in all the lore I've read about them; whereas dragonborn are quite civilized, even as slaves) or half-dragons (dragonborn are a true species, not hybrids). Even the dragonborn from Races of the Dragon are specifically said to be different to half-dragons.
You can ignore this, obviously, and try to shoehorn the lore of dragonkins and half-dragons to the dragonborn, but then you will be doing the same thing you're saying you're trying to avoid, invalidating the dragonborn lore. That this lore is more recent than most Realmslore doesn't make it less valid or something.
Now, there a more ways to bring the dragonborn to Faerūn without involving Abeir, but I think that would change their culture significantly. I mean, the dragonborn of the Realms are different to those from the core by the fact that they hate dragons and shun gods. This is a big difference that sets them apart from the "core" dragonborn. Making them all descendants from followers of Bahamut and Tiamat would change one of the fundamental details about their culture.
If you don't want Abeir to be involved, then I'd go with sleyvas' idea, and would make them immigrants from Coliar. Given how racist people is on the Realms, its not impossible for the humans who explore Realmspace to confuse them with just another kind of lizardfolk ("they are all scales, after all"). This is how they introduced the dragonborn to Eberron in 4e, for instance.
This would involve some magic event to bring them to Faerūn, obviously. You still need to wipe out Unther if you want to have Tymanther in your Realms.
I know we may disagree here, but I still like the idea of a mixing of Unther and Tymanther that came with 5e. Just to note. That being said, I very much like the culture of the dragonborn that came from Abeir, and the idea that they didn't like dragons. I would say that if someone DID do the idea of a portal to Coliar bringing the dragonborn to the area of Unther, it be something where they found this portal and their people actively fled Coliar. Maybe their dragon overlords on their earthmote had gone insane or were just evil compared to the others. If my ideas that the Coliar earthmotes can be the size of several states of America combined, it wouldn't be hard to believe that you could generate numbers large enough to create a mass exodus. Then perhaps the dragons find out about it and destroy the portal.
That all being said, I'm of the mindset... the cake is baked... let's take a look at what we have and try to make the changes necessary to move forward in a direction that we want to see rather than trying to tinker with the past history that's already modestly documented (I won't give them the chops to say well documented... but I will say that the writers who came along later gave their culture some decent thought). I personally want to see Tymanther occupying the northern and western part of Unther and Threskel, and possibly building into the riders to the sky mountains. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2020 : 20:37:26
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I know we may disagree here, but I still like the idea of a mixing of Unther and Tymanther that came with 5e. Just to note. That being said, I very much like the culture of the dragonborn that came from Abeir, and the idea that they didn't like dragons. I would say that if someone DID do the idea of a portal to Coliar bringing the dragonborn to the area of Unther, it be something where they found this portal and their people actively fled Coliar. Maybe their dragon overlords on their earthmote had gone insane or were just evil compared to the others. If my ideas that the Coliar earthmotes can be the size of several states of America combined, it wouldn't be hard to believe that you could generate numbers large enough to create a mass exodus. Then perhaps the dragons find out about it and destroy the portal.
That all being said, I'm of the mindset... the cake is baked... let's take a look at what we have and try to make the changes necessary to move forward in a direction that we want to see rather than trying to tinker with the past history that's already modestly documented (I won't give them the chops to say well documented... but I will say that the writers who came along later gave their culture some decent thought). I personally want to see Tymanther occupying the northern and western part of Unther and Threskel, and possibly building into the riders to the sky mountains.
I'm a bit ambivalent with the return of Unther. I don't mind the Untherans, I just dislike some aspects of their culture (the slavery, for instance), and Gilgeam. He was better dead.
As for your idea about Coliar, we can even have this happening while using Abeir as the dragonborn homeland: a mass exodus using portals instead of a cataclysm. I mean, Abeir exist with or without the Spellplague. Its just another dimension.
As for the other stuff, sadly, those are the territories Unther holds now. So, Tymanther cannot expand there. Curiously enough, while the SCAG says Tymanther "lost territories", the fact is that 5e Tymanther is basically 4e Tymanther sans the ruins of Unthalass.
The dragonborn have all of the Shaar to expand, though, so no worries there. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 21 Jul 2020 20:40:14 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2020 : 21:58:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I know we may disagree here, but I still like the idea of a mixing of Unther and Tymanther that came with 5e. Just to note. That being said, I very much like the culture of the dragonborn that came from Abeir, and the idea that they didn't like dragons. I would say that if someone DID do the idea of a portal to Coliar bringing the dragonborn to the area of Unther, it be something where they found this portal and their people actively fled Coliar. Maybe their dragon overlords on their earthmote had gone insane or were just evil compared to the others. If my ideas that the Coliar earthmotes can be the size of several states of America combined, it wouldn't be hard to believe that you could generate numbers large enough to create a mass exodus. Then perhaps the dragons find out about it and destroy the portal.
That all being said, I'm of the mindset... the cake is baked... let's take a look at what we have and try to make the changes necessary to move forward in a direction that we want to see rather than trying to tinker with the past history that's already modestly documented (I won't give them the chops to say well documented... but I will say that the writers who came along later gave their culture some decent thought). I personally want to see Tymanther occupying the northern and western part of Unther and Threskel, and possibly building into the riders to the sky mountains.
I'm a bit ambivalent with the return of Unther. I don't mind the Untherans, I just dislike some aspects of their culture (the slavery, for instance), and Gilgeam. He was better dead.
As for your idea about Coliar, we can even have this happening while using Abeir as the dragonborn homeland: a mass exodus using portals instead of a cataclysm. I mean, Abeir exist with or without the Spellplague. Its just another dimension.
As for the other stuff, sadly, those are the territories Unther holds now. So, Tymanther cannot expand there. Curiously enough, while the SCAG says Tymanther "lost territories", the fact is that 5e Tymanther is basically 4e Tymanther sans the ruins of Unthalass.
The dragonborn have all of the Shaar to expand, though, so no worries there.
I'm confused... I know Gilgeam came from the north on the Abeir side, but he was located just outside of Unthalass when they transitioned. So, actually the northern part of the country is the part we don't know about, right? I could have sworn there was some statement even in the novels that "they didn't know what happened in the north yet". Could be wrong... worth discussing. I mean, I know the dragonborn city in the novels was a bit on the south western side, but I was picturing it being the most southerly of all the settlements left (kind of the "front" on the border with returning Unther). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2020 : 04:28:39
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Now you confused me. Reading Unther entry in the SCAG, makes it sound as if Unther has recovered nearly all of his former territory, save for anything south the Smoking Mountains. However, I had to check the novel (The Devil You Know) for more accurate, not-biased info (as the SCAG clarifies all the info in the book is biased with the PoV of some NPCs).
As you say, the Untherans appeared near Unthalass. We don't know how numerous they were, but according to Namshita, they didn't had the numbers to defeat Shyr (even with the demon army bolstering them), so perhaps a few thousands? They lost a sizable number of their forces either as the traitors fled (nearly 1000 people), and later as casualties of battle. So, I don't see them with enough numbers to have spread out north beyond Unthalass.
However, Tymanther lost a sizable portion of their territory to Abeir. It seems a great chunk of land north of the Smoking Mountains was exchanged with some territories from Abeir. The novel doesn't delve into this, tho. So, who knows. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2020 : 12:45:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Now you confused me. Reading Unther entry in the SCAG, makes it sound as if Unther has recovered nearly all of his former territory, save for anything south the Smoking Mountains. However, I had to check the novel (The Devil You Know) for more accurate, not-biased info (as the SCAG clarifies all the info in the book is biased with the PoV of some NPCs).
As you say, the Untherans appeared near Unthalass. We don't know how numerous they were, but according to Namshita, they didn't had the numbers to defeat Shyr (even with the demon army bolstering them), so perhaps a few thousands? They lost a sizable number of their forces either as the traitors fled (nearly 1000 people), and later as casualties of battle. So, I don't see them with enough numbers to have spread out north beyond Unthalass.
However, Tymanther lost a sizable portion of their territory to Abeir. It seems a great chunk of land north of the Smoking Mountains was exchanged with some territories from Abeir. The novel doesn't delve into this, tho. So, who knows.
Yeah, I don't view Unther as recovered. I view it as a lot of the folk have returned, and they're probably trying to rebuild places. Proably a lot of them that are returned were still slaves, and some genasi that were "slave lords" for Karshimis probably came over as well. I picture the Untheric folk however occupying the coast lands at the southern end, and maybe along the coast heading northward for a bit. I picture the ship of the gods island back, but with no civilization occupying it (personally, I put a rotating retinue of gods in lesser avatar form
ie. sharing a body with a mortal... actually there while in Abeir). But I'm picturing Tymanther as occupying the more interior lands, and maybe even the area that used to be Messemprar.
As to the genasi "slave lords" that may have just transferred over, perhaps some were killed, and others fled into surrounding territory. Many may have wound up in Airspur. I kind of picture the dragonborn controlling their city in the south, the areas bordering the Methwood and possibly portions of the methwood, as well as the lands bordering the methmere and the riders to the sky mountains. I'd like to see even more dinosaurs in that area now.
The area that transferred that was north of the smoking mountains... well there's the methwood (mostly unoccupied, some elves), the methmere lake, and the maw of the godswallower portion of Chessenta. Maybe that tiefling village that had a portal to Abeir went to Abeir as that could make sense (which that was right smack on top of Dalath, so maybe Dalath is back). But most of this area was Torilian
not Abeiran, so if it went away, that means that even more areas of Abeir are now in Toril instead. Who occupied that area? Is it more dragonborn?
OOOOoooo, and how about this.... I know that the riders to the sky mountains HAD aarakocra, and it had those Tuuru pterodactyls. But focusing on the aarakocra for a second. What if we combine both our ideas with the second sundering. What if the dragonborn actually explore into the Riders to the Sky Mountains and find a portal from the aarakocra civilization. What if this portal connects to Coliar? What if they find out that there's a dragonborn civilization there (where possibly previously thousands of years ago some aarakocra lived that came to Toril). It could prove a "shocking" discovery to their civilization, especially if these dragonborn on Coliar actually get along with the dragons (or not... whatever makes the better story). Am I just enamoured with my own idea too much or does this sound good? Maybe this can be a new trade way for the Vayemniri, and possibly a hidden place to retreat to. Maybe a way to replenish their numbers, but with a people and society that has a similar body structure but an alien outlook. Hmmm, and also, a way to bring over dinosaurs from Coliar that are useful to society (herbivores, etc...). Also, maybe that society on the other side is itself entrenched with aarakocra encroaching and trying to "take back their home" or some such, so that both sides might "need" each other as allies across worlds. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 22 Jul 2020 13:12:15 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2020 : 16:58:53
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
OOOOoooo, and how about this.... I know that the riders to the sky mountains HAD aarakocra, and it had those Tuuru pterodactyls. But focusing on the aarakocra for a second. What if we combine both our ideas with the second sundering. What if the dragonborn actually explore into the Riders to the Sky Mountains and find a portal from the aarakocra civilization. What if this portal connects to Coliar? What if they find out that there's a dragonborn civilization there (where possibly previously thousands of years ago some aarakocra lived that came to Toril). It could prove a "shocking" discovery to their civilization, especially if these dragonborn on Coliar actually get along with the dragons (or not... whatever makes the better story). Am I just enamoured with my own idea too much or does this sound good? Maybe this can be a new trade way for the Vayemniri, and possibly a hidden place to retreat to. Maybe a way to replenish their numbers, but with a people and society that has a similar body structure but an alien outlook. Hmmm, and also, a way to bring over dinosaurs from Coliar that are useful to society (herbivores, etc...). Also, maybe that society on the other side is itself entrenched with aarakocra encroaching and trying to "take back their home" or some such, so that both sides might "need" each other as allies across worlds.
I do think that this deserves its own topic (I'll start it as soon as I'm able, if you don't beat me to it), but for your idea of dragonborn in Coliar, I don't think they may have a culture similar to that of the Abeiran dragonborn. I mean, the Toril side of the cosmos has gods, and the dragon gods have influenced dracoonic culture in a way that's so different from the godless cultures of Abeir.
Canonically, the dragons of Coliar are often neutral regardless of scales, right? Then, this makes them akin to the dragons of Argonessen in Eberron. You can plunder a lot from Dragons of Eberron to expand the dragon culture of Coliar. Likewise, the dragonborn of Coliar should be more akin Eberron's throtlorsvek than FR vayemniri. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 22 Jul 2020 17:18:55 |
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
297 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2020 : 21:46:40
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Dragonborn are quite easy to fit into the Realms as they have a perfect spot in unknown lore and history: The Dragon Empires. For roughly 6,000 years Dragons ruled the planet. They officially created Dragonspawn, Dragonborn, Dragon-Kin, Half Dragons, Kobolds and Urds. And this was all 25,000 YEARS ago.
It is easy to say Dragonborn (or any race) survived. Granted, they may have come close to extinction...maybe just a few small tribes left. Toril has plenty of places whole tribes could have hidden, even without using magic. Vast numbers also could have entered status, using the dragon version of Phezult's sleep of ages. |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2020 : 22:21:34
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On the topic of 4e changes, does anyone recall what the notion of 'Asmodeus, having become a god, ended the blood war by hurling the abyss in the elemental plane of fire'?
Because I read that early into my realms research and haven't confirmed or denied this strange and absurd spellplague (I assume) change to the cosmos that has subsequently been... completely ignored? I never got closure on that. |
:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:
https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com
T_P_T |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2020 : 00:28:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
OOOOoooo, and how about this.... I know that the riders to the sky mountains HAD aarakocra, and it had those Tuuru pterodactyls. But focusing on the aarakocra for a second. What if we combine both our ideas with the second sundering. What if the dragonborn actually explore into the Riders to the Sky Mountains and find a portal from the aarakocra civilization. What if this portal connects to Coliar? What if they find out that there's a dragonborn civilization there (where possibly previously thousands of years ago some aarakocra lived that came to Toril). It could prove a "shocking" discovery to their civilization, especially if these dragonborn on Coliar actually get along with the dragons (or not... whatever makes the better story). Am I just enamoured with my own idea too much or does this sound good? Maybe this can be a new trade way for the Vayemniri, and possibly a hidden place to retreat to. Maybe a way to replenish their numbers, but with a people and society that has a similar body structure but an alien outlook. Hmmm, and also, a way to bring over dinosaurs from Coliar that are useful to society (herbivores, etc...). Also, maybe that society on the other side is itself entrenched with aarakocra encroaching and trying to "take back their home" or some such, so that both sides might "need" each other as allies across worlds.
I do think that this deserves its own topic (I'll start it as soon as I'm able, if you don't beat me to it), but for your idea of dragonborn in Coliar, I don't think they may have a culture similar to that of the Abeiran dragonborn. I mean, the Toril side of the cosmos has gods, and the dragon gods have influenced dracoonic culture in a way that's so different from the godless cultures of Abeir.
Canonically, the dragons of Coliar are often neutral regardless of scales, right? Then, this makes them akin to the dragons of Argonessen in Eberron. You can plunder a lot from Dragons of Eberron to expand the dragon culture of Coliar. Likewise, the dragonborn of Coliar should be more akin Eberron's throtlorsvek than FR vayemniri.
Yeah, we should maybe start another thread to discuss. I will need to look more at Eberron dragon culture, but yes, the ones on Coliar.... I guess I would call them more "shamanistic" than the ones on Toril (whom I see as more ethically oriented or simply more power hungry). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2020 : 00:33:32
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quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
On the topic of 4e changes, does anyone recall what the notion of 'Asmodeus, having become a god, ended the blood war by hurling the abyss in the elemental plane of fire'?
Because I read that early into my realms research and haven't confirmed or denied this strange and absurd spellplague (I assume) change to the cosmos that has subsequently been... completely ignored? I never got closure on that.
Just to note, there were huge storylines in 4e (that I admittedy barely followed) involving the heart of the abyss, orcus, the raven queen, etc... as well as Tharizdun. Perhaps somewhere they have some stitched together thing to explain the abyss being in the outer planes again, and perhaps it has some relation to those plot lines (and if not, that's where I'd go). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2020 : 00:49:13
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According to the Brimstone Angels series, this was just PR to increase the prestige of Asmodeus among mortals. It doesn't help that the official stance in cosmologies in 5e is "all of them are theoretical models built by mortals who don't understand the true nature of the cosmos", so moving one plane to another one is just one theory of followers of certain cosmological model.
Asmodeus actually did something that somehow forced the Blood War to one of its cold war phases (we don't know what), but it was just temporary, and the Blood War resumes 100 years after that. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 23 Jul 2020 00:50:12 |
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Reconciling the Forgotten Realms and 4th Edition
