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keftiu
Senior Scribe

538 Posts

Posted - 01 Jul 2020 :  07:53:35  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I have a friend who has a deep love for "cut content," and it made me wonder; are there any books/articles/novels/whatever of Realms content that was known to have existed at some level of development, but been canceled or never released?

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.

Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
798 Posts

Posted - 01 Jul 2020 :  08:56:56  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, Scott Bennie released materials on how he would continue and explore the story and backstory of Mulhorand, Unther and Chessenta:
http://kingstears.tripod.com/downloads/OldEmpiresMay2003withbackground.pdf

Eilistraee and Vhaeraun were originally to be revealed as survived as Archfey in the 4E Menzoberranzan book:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19435

Ed on Twitter (and Sage Advice)
(@TheEdverse) and Questions for Ed Greenwood threads reveal a lot of materials and ideas of his, that didn't made it to the published Realms, or to other D&D works he worked on.

https://twitter.com/theedverse
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21624

Edited by - Baltas on 01 Jul 2020 09:44:58
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AJA
Senior Scribe

USA
595 Posts

Posted - 01 Jul 2020 :  09:08:32  Show Profile Send AJA a Private Message  Reply with Quote

I assume we're not counting the thousands upon thousands of Ed's words that fell victim to editorial cuts or canceled web/DRAGON articles or were meant for in-house documents that are forever vanished behind NDA lock and key?

Marc Anthony's Shores of Dusk and Elaine's Reclamation novels leap to mind, as does the lost, lamented Realms Encyclopedia project championed by Steven Schend.


AJA
YAFRP
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
798 Posts

Posted - 01 Jul 2020 :  09:39:56  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A bit for other settings-
Oerth Journal documents some unused/unpublished ideas for Greyhawk (in in issue 12, in the article "Thus Spake Gary Gygax: Ye Secrets of Oerth Revealed":
https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal/

The Raven Queen was to be originally to be revealed as Wee Jas or a version of her, which was sorta confirmed in 5E, which stated the Raven Queen is parallel to/inspired by Wee Jas and Hel:
http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15351&whichpage=2

Edited by - Baltas on 01 Jul 2020 09:45:51
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
10107 Posts

Posted - 01 Jul 2020 :  15:00:16  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

A bit for other settings-
Oerth Journal documents some unused/unpublished ideas for Greyhawk (in in issue 12, in the article "Thus Spake Gary Gygax: Ye Secrets of Oerth Revealed":
https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal/

The Raven Queen was to be originally to be revealed as Wee Jas or a version of her, which was sorta confirmed in 5E, which stated the Raven Queen is parallel to/inspired by Wee Jas and Hel:
http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15351&whichpage=2



Really? I look at the Raven Queen and my mind immediately pops to Ereshkigal based on what little imagery I've seen of her. She has wings and taloned feet, is a goddess of the dead, etc... Granted, I knew little of said goddess before the last 4 years or so, and even still less except for what I can google.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2224 Posts

Posted - 01 Jul 2020 :  15:30:48  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The first thing like this is the redacted stuff from Spellfire - apparently Ed's original was much longer and much more involved. We'll never get to see it though, sadly.

Also, Elaine had 2 more books - Serpent's Daughter and Reclamation (i think... or redemption... or something like that) - that were about Elaith and the moonblade. Always wished those were published and finished.
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
798 Posts

Posted - 01 Jul 2020 :  16:09:45  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Really? I look at the Raven Queen and my mind immediately pops to Ereshkigal based on what little imagery I've seen of her. She has wings and taloned feet, is a goddess of the dead, etc... Granted, I knew little of said goddess before the last 4 years or so, and even still less except for what I can google.



From 5th edition Dungeon Master guide, page 11:
"The Raven Queen is akin to the Norse pantheon's Hel and Greyhawk's Wee Jas."

Other examples were outright stated in the same paragraph to be based on gods from other pantheons (ie Zehir on Set, if more his Howardian interpretation), Erathis on Athena, and Avandra on Tyche.
"From the Greek pantheon come Athena (renamed Erathis) and Tyche (renamed Avandra), though both are altered. Set (renamed Zehir) comes from the Egyptian pantheon."

And stating Ioun, Melora, and Torog weren't based directly on any god:
That leaves three gods created from scratch: Ioun, Melora, and Torog.

Wee Jas also though similarities to Ereshkigal, with Wee Jas even having a rivalry with a goddess of love (Myhriss), like Ereshkigal with Inanna.

If she kinda also resembles the hypothetical goddess of desire and death from which multiple researchers think Ereshkigal and Inanna "split" from.
https://ghwiki.greyparticle.com/index.php/Wee_Jas

Raven Queen also resembles Wee Jas, in the element she is selfish, but not evil (both are even the same alignment - Lawful Evil), with her being a benign goddess of dead.

Edited by - Baltas on 01 Jul 2020 16:41:33
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1863 Posts

Posted - 01 Jul 2020 :  17:19:22  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As a fan of the dragonborn, I still want they had published that cancelled Dragon article about Tymanther, by Brian R. James. We only have an unfinished map of Tymanther as of 1479... how sad we never got that article.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
10107 Posts

Posted - 01 Jul 2020 :  19:42:18  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Really? I look at the Raven Queen and my mind immediately pops to Ereshkigal based on what little imagery I've seen of her. She has wings and taloned feet, is a goddess of the dead, etc... Granted, I knew little of said goddess before the last 4 years or so, and even still less except for what I can google.



From 5th edition Dungeon Master guide, page 11:
"The Raven Queen is akin to the Norse pantheon's Hel and Greyhawk's Wee Jas."

Other examples were outright stated in the same paragraph to be based on gods from other pantheons (ie Zehir on Set, if more his Howardian interpretation), Erathis on Athena, and Avandra on Tyche.
"From the Greek pantheon come Athena (renamed Erathis) and Tyche (renamed Avandra), though both are altered. Set (renamed Zehir) comes from the Egyptian pantheon."

And stating Ioun, Melora, and Torog weren't based directly on any god:
That leaves three gods created from scratch: Ioun, Melora, and Torog.

Wee Jas also though similarities to Ereshkigal, with Wee Jas even having a rivalry with a goddess of love (Myhriss), like Ereshkigal with Inanna.

If she kinda also resembles the hypothetical goddess of desire and death from which multiple researchers think Ereshkigal and Inanna "split" from.
https://ghwiki.greyparticle.com/index.php/Wee_Jas

Raven Queen also resembles Wee Jas, in the element she is selfish, but not evil (both are even the same alignment - Lawful Evil), with her being a benign goddess of dead.



Gotcha, and I can get it. Hell, I was already linking some of them as well (my metahel version of Hel was named Heleshkigal, and linking them both to the Raven Queen... whether this be because they were the same, one took over the other in realmspace or whatever, I hadn't decided).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3536 Posts

Posted - 01 Jul 2020 :  22:40:16  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-RIP to Reclamation. That cancellation really stung.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6154 Posts

Posted - 01 Jul 2020 :  23:25:40  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't know of any cancelled products, but as noted there were a range of Ed articles (chief of which was the successor to the city write-up of Crimmor in the form of an article on Teziir for Dragon that never saw the light of day) that were never published. I know that both Steven Schend and Eric Boyd wrote material for their various products that didn't survive editing. Some was folded into other products but there is a bit that remains unpublished. There is however no grand opus major product that's sitting in a filing cabinet somewhere, unless you count "Shores of Dusk" (although allegedly all copies were destroyed).

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34710 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2020 :  01:21:48  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I seem to recall that there were some Border Kingdoms web articles that weren't released by WotC (and were presumably reworked for the DM's Guild product), and the promised but never delivered Mysteries of the Moonsea web enhancement that covered Phlan.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

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lookatroopa
Acolyte

Netherlands
38 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2020 :  02:01:44  Show Profile Send lookatroopa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I seem to recall that there were some Border Kingdoms web articles that weren't released by WotC (and were presumably reworked for the DM's Guild product)


Weren't those web articles just somewhat abridged transcriptions of the ones published in Polyhedron #109-148?
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7413 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2020 :  02:13:27  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Remember those TSR product catalogue lists from the late-2E "golden age" - that extra page (the "thick" cardboard one) built into the back of the book or that shiny little brochure stuffed into the box? Always a growing list of existing products and often a list of "scheduled" products. Many of those announced/scheduled products were released, some were released under a different title or as part of something else, but some were simply forgotten and never mentioned again. I recall they used to emphasize upcoming novels a lot, but always some sourcebooks and modules which never actually became available.

[/Ayrik]
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AJA
Senior Scribe

USA
595 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2020 :  03:29:06  Show Profile Send AJA a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
There is however no grand opus major product that's sitting in a filing cabinet somewhere

Aside from Crown of Eaerlann that is, eh George? Eh, eh?


AJA
YAFRP
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Alexander Clark
Learned Scribe

102 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2020 :  06:00:55  Show Profile Send Alexander Clark a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Rise of the Blade is an unpublished Harpers book you can find online.

Edited by - Alexander Clark on 02 Jul 2020 06:03:22
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34710 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2020 :  12:14:16  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alexander Clark

Rise of the Blade is an unpublished Harpers book you can find online.



Nope. This one has been addressed before.

quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham

quote:
Originally posted by HardKano
[I found on Charles Moffat site that he offer for free the ebook of his unpublished novel in the Realms. Note that was unpublished because TSR was bought by Wizard that year and stopped the Harpers series.

The Hapers #17 : Rise of the Blade

http://fiction.charlesmoffat.com/

I'm already reading Hapers novels, si i'll be on that one soon enough !



The wording on Mr. Moffat's site is ambiguous and somewhat misleading. He states that he wrote this story in 1998, and says "it was intended to be published 1999-2000." Please note that he does not state that TSR intended to publish this book.

A lot of people intend to write a book for the Realms. The fact that Mr. Moffat did, and the fact that it was not published, does not make it an "unpublished Realms novel"--at least, not in the sense that it was ever TSR/WotC intention to publish it.

He states that the book was not published as part of the Harper series because WotC discontinued this series. That is true, as far as it goes. But again, the ambiguous wording gives the impression that the book was contracted and then cancelled. I do not know for a fact that this is NOT the case, but from what I do know, it seems unlikely.

Here's why.
  • Mary Kirchoff, who was managing editor at the time, told me that she has no recollection of any project by Charles Moffat.

  • TSR intended Thornhold to be the last Harper book. I wrote it in 1997, and it was published in 1998. This strongly suggests that they never planned to publish a book #17.

  • Mr. Moffet wrote his story in 1998, after the Harper line was discontinued.

  • Thornhold was intended to be a pivot book, which introduced two new characters (Bronwyn and Ebenezer Stoneshaft) who would become shared-author characters. The plan was to move from the Harper series into a longer story arc that would be covered in several novels and game products. The editorial direction changed and this story arc was dropped. But if Mr. Moffet HAD been in discussions with TSR about writing a post-Thornhold book, he would have written about Bronwyn and Ebenezer. He did not.

  • His book is only 152 pages long, less than half the length of most Forgotten Realms novels. The story is not formatted in Forgotten Realms fashion. There are no chapter breaks, only short windows.


I suspect that Mr. Moffat wrote this story hoping, perhaps intending, that it would become a Harpers novel, but I doubt anyone shared this intention.



In addition to the stuff Elaine notes, the dude had not written for the Realms before -- making a three-book deal most unlikely. And if it had been written for TSR or WotC, there would have been a contract, which would have absolutely prohibited him sharing the book himself. His later sharing of it wouldn't have resulted in a one-off contact, it would have been a lawsuit.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3536 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2020 :  16:09:17  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Is it me or does something seem...off on that guy's entire website?

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
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Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34710 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2020 :  20:54:18  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-Is it me or does something seem...off on that guy's entire website?



I only looked at the one page, and there was enough there to make me doubt his story -- and that was before I dug up the quote from Elaine, which I thought was referencing a different book.

Going back and looking at the site again... He credits himself for the site design. I'm assuming the books are self-published, and since there's also a mention of him being an artist, I'm further assuming he's doing his own artwork for them.

I'm not really sure what that says about the guy, to publish his own books, do his own covers, and design his own site. Ambitious? Unable to convince anyone else to support him? Something else?

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 02 Jul 2020 20:58:15
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Alexander Clark
Learned Scribe

102 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2020 :  21:17:02  Show Profile Send Alexander Clark a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks, Wooly. I did Google the guy a bit more and I could not find any connection between him and D&D. It also seems he steals art for his book covers.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34710 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2020 :  21:43:15  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alexander Clark

Thanks, Wooly. I did Google the guy a bit more and I could not find any connection between him and D&D. It also seems he steals art for his book covers.



Really? If I was going to steal art, I'd steal better art! I assumed, looking at the underwhelming covers, that he was doing that art himself.

Ah, well, the old line about assumptions is proven, once more...

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7413 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2020 :  22:48:15  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"Rise of the Blades" has been discussed in other scrolls.

http://www.candlekeep.com/bookshelf/novels/rotb.htm
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15616
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16831&whichpage=1

Folks at other forums generally agree that this author wrote a (bad) Forgotten Realms novel circa 1998, then approached someone at TSR or WotC and offered to sell them this (bad) novel. Flatly rejected again and again.
Then, around 2001, 2008, and 2011 (and now 2020?) - roughly any time a major edition/release generated interest in D&D - he began trying to sell it to the public. Available for purchase through his website, available through Amazon, etc. And he began including it on lists of Harper novels on Wikipedia, FR Wiki, etc. And he began advertising the novel with floods of positive "consumer" reviews at sites like Book Reviews and Goodreads, etc. Most of these self-advertising efforts have been long redacted from public domain. Although the author persistently keeps trying to sell a homemade fanfic which nobody ever wanted to buy.

The novel is fanfic. Quite typically awful fanfic, actually, based on the the preview chapters I've read. It's certainly not official, not canon, and not recognized by WotC in any way (except perhaps through Cease and Desist notices their lawyers may have issued the author). The scrolls I linked contain other links which lead to free previews, you can download them and judge for yourself, I suspect you'll find my condemnation of this garbage quite agreeable before you finish the first page.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 02 Jul 2020 23:10:40
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3536 Posts

Posted - 03 Jul 2020 :  00:25:35  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Awful fanfic!? But "Moffat has contributed to over 200 different websites and blogs with topics ranging from Art History to Politics. Some of his more noteworthy non-fiction works concern art history and art theory. His piece 'The Work of Art in the Age of Digital Reproduction' is frequently taught in universities."

-Lol

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
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Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6154 Posts

Posted - 03 Jul 2020 :  00:51:32  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AJA

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
There is however no grand opus major product that's sitting in a filing cabinet somewhere

Aside from Crown of Eaerlann that is, eh George? Eh, eh?





That's an unfinished grand opus and it exists only digitally. Plans however are afoot ...

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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AJA
Senior Scribe

USA
595 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2020 :  00:49:48  Show Profile Send AJA a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Interesting....

I found this tweet from Ed:
quote:
My 2e sourcebook DWARVES DEEP. There's not much dwarf lore in the Realms novels beyond Bob Salvatore's Bruenor onstage deeds, though @JEThetford wrote a never-published Realms novel starring dwarves.


AJA
YAFRP
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6154 Posts

Posted - 15 Jul 2020 :  01:22:36  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Indeed he did. But I haven't read it. I'll have to get onto Jeff and nab a copy. Hehe.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 15 Jul 2020 01:22:55
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