| Author |
 Topic  |
|
keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Jun 2020 : 22:32:52
|
| This thread has me wanting to quit this forum. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
 |
|
|
Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2020 : 22:43:15
|
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
This thread has me wanting to quit this forum.
Don't. If anyone should quit, it's people that obviously don't see the Realms as Ed created them. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
|
|
|
Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2020 : 22:52:28
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Just because the show is made doesn't mean we should accept it. And any narrative that is told that offends a person's culture or believe is not a story, it's f*cking propaganda.
Millions WERE complaining about this, you just never heard them. Wizards of the Coast did, and now they are making the change. If you don't like it (which has become apparent over the last nine pages), you can stop buying it.
Prove it. Show me the large public outcry over THIS episode of Community. Another question, have you or any others that object to it actually seen this episode? Do you know what actually happens in the show? Or did you just read that a character wore black makeup and just assumed it was in a racist context?
Also, do we have to respect the Westboro Baptist Church's objection to LGBT content? Or how about the innumerable Muslim groups that get offended by images of Muhammad? We can't go down the path of absolutism where anything even remotely hinting at racism is censored. Because if we do then we have to respect all the other groups that want to censor their distasteful content. Otherwise we're all being hypocrites.
So we either have to look at the world in shades of grey and understand context or we have to censor everything. |
|
|
|
Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2020 : 23:06:00
|
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Just because the show is made doesn't mean we should accept it. And any narrative that is told that offends a person's culture or believe is not a story, it's f*cking propaganda.
Millions WERE complaining about this, you just never heard them. Wizards of the Coast did, and now they are making the change. If you don't like it (which has become apparent over the last nine pages), you can stop buying it.
Prove it. Show me the large public outcry over THIS episode of Community. Another question, have you or any others that object to it actually seen this episode? Do you know what actually happens in the show? Or did you just read that a character wore black makeup and just assumed it was in a racist context?
Also, do we have to respect the Westboro Baptist Church's objection to LGBT content? Or how about the innumerable Muslim groups that get offended by images of Muhammad? We can't go down the path of absolutism where anything even remotely hinting at racism is censored. Because if we do then we have to respect all the other groups that want to censor their distasteful content. Otherwise we're all being hypocrites.
So we either have to look at the world in shades of grey and understand context or we have to censor everything.
I'm a huge fan of the show, and still waiting for the movie after 5 sessions. It's actually one of my favorite episodes because of showing D&D in a good light. BUT, I understand why it's offensive, just as I understand why Always Sunny's Lethal Weapon is incredibly offensive. If it insults people, then pull it. (And I do remember cringing when I first saw it too)
And, no, we don't have to listen to Westboro as part of being tolerant since they are equivalent to Nazis at his point. Tolerance is about accepting others no matter their gender, belief, culture, or sexual preference. Tolerance does NOT mean listening to intolerant people.
Also, these arguments are annoying and repetitive, being the arguments that bigots and racists have used to say they deserve 1st Amendment support. You are allowed to say and believe whatever you want, but if it infringes on other people's Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness, then you automatically excuse yourself from any discussion on making this a better world. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 27 Jun 2020 23:10:46 |
|
|
|
Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2020 : 23:32:41
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe RavenheartI'm a huge fan of the show, and still waiting for the movie after 5 sessions. It's actually one of my favorite episodes because of showing D&D in a good light. BUT, I understand why it's offensive, just as I understand why Always Sunny's Lethal Weapon is incredibly offensive. If it insults people, then pull it. (And I do remember cringing when I first saw it too)
And, no, we don't have to listen to Westboro as part of being tolerant since they are equivalent to Nazis at his point. Tolerance is about accepting others no matter their gender, belief, culture, or sexual preference. Tolerance does NOT mean listening to intolerant people.
Also, these arguments are annoying and repetitive, being the arguments that bigots and racists have used to say they deserve 1st Amendment support. You are allowed to say and believe whatever you want, but if it infringes on other people's Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness, then you automatically excuse yourself from any discussion on making this a better world.
They're repetitive and annoying because you are being intractable. You seem to have a very binary view of the world which is causing you to imply that I'm a racist and a bigot just because I don't agree with your side of that view. There are people, like me, that don't agree with your scorched earth method of dealing with racism and intolerance. You can't even see that you are creating your own intolerance by being so intractable. I mean you are trying to say that not even allowed to be involved in bettering the world for Oden's sake!
Censoring shows and games and all media is nothing but a distraction meant to shield corporations from criticism and make people like you feel better about yourselves. It does nothing to change the minds of the real bigots out there. It's just a decisive wedge that only serves to broaden the gap between everyone.
To truly tackling racism and bigotry is a hard and permanent endeavour. So I guess in a way I can see people would want to take the easy way out through censorship. |
|
|
|
Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2020 : 00:00:04
|
(Take a breath, focus, center...)
My fighting against bigotry and racism is intolerant. D&D trying to make the game less offensive is censorship. We should take into account people that call for the murder of non-heterosexual people should have a hand in how they should be treated. Is that what you're trying to say?
I fully realize that I'm turning your own words against you. Doesn't feel good, does it? Now take that feeling and multiply it by a lifetime of people of authority and the entertainment industry doing the same to you.
You are implying you want to tackle bigotry and racism, accepting that it's a hard fight, but then complain when a company takes a step in the right direction. Then you and others have done nothing but complain that nothing needs to change. Which is it? Do you want to get rid of bigotry and racism, or do you want things to stay the same? |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
|
|
|
farinal
Learned Scribe
Turkey
270 Posts |
|
|
keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2020 : 00:14:25
|
| Caolin, how do /you/ fight bigotry and racism? Is it just by yelling at progressive people on messageboards? |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
|
|
|
Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2020 : 00:16:43
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
(Take a breath, focus, center...)
My fighting against bigotry and racism is intolerant. D&D trying to make the game less offensive is censorship. We should take into account people that call for the murder of non-heterosexual people should have a hand in how they should be treated. Is that what you're trying to say?
I fully realize that I'm turning your own words against you. Doesn't feel good, does it? Now take that feeling and multiply it by a lifetime of people of authority and the entertainment industry doing the same to you.
You are implying you want to tackle bigotry and racism, accepting that it's a hard fight, but then complain when a company takes a step in the right direction. Then you and others have done nothing but complain that nothing needs to change. Which is it? Do you want to get rid of bigotry and racism, or do you want things to stay the same?
Honestly, we both need to take a step back here. Because we're really on the same side. But we differ on the approach. You say that WoTC is taking the right steps, but I disagree that they are. Same with Netflix and all the other shows pulling episodes viewed as suspect. That kind of censorship goes fully against what I believe in. But it doesn't mean that I think racism isn't a problem, or that I don't have a problem with racism at all and it certainly doesn't mean that my voice shouldn't be heard.
These are incredibly complex issues that can't be fixed with simple, reactionary actions. When it comes to the matter at hand, I'd rather seem them make real changes in the future rather than try to scrub the past of any perceived transgressions. Scrubbing the past risks us forgetting the past. Mistakes are teachable moments and when we delete them we learn nothing. |
|
|
|
Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2020 : 00:27:28
|
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
(Take a breath, focus, center...)
My fighting against bigotry and racism is intolerant. D&D trying to make the game less offensive is censorship. We should take into account people that call for the murder of non-heterosexual people should have a hand in how they should be treated. Is that what you're trying to say?
I fully realize that I'm turning your own words against you. Doesn't feel good, does it? Now take that feeling and multiply it by a lifetime of people of authority and the entertainment industry doing the same to you.
You are implying you want to tackle bigotry and racism, accepting that it's a hard fight, but then complain when a company takes a step in the right direction. Then you and others have done nothing but complain that nothing needs to change. Which is it? Do you want to get rid of bigotry and racism, or do you want things to stay the same?
Honestly, we both need to take a step back here. Because we're really on the same side. But we differ on the approach. You say that WoTC is taking the right steps, but I disagree that they are. Same with Netflix and all the other shows pulling episodes viewed as suspect. That kind of censorship goes fully against what I believe in. But it doesn't mean that I think racism isn't a problem, or that I don't have a problem with racism at all and it certainly doesn't mean that my voice shouldn't be heard.
These are incredibly complex issues that can't be fixed with simple, reactionary actions. When it comes to the matter at hand, I'd rather seem them make real changes in the future rather than try to scrub the past of any perceived transgressions. Scrubbing the past risks us forgetting the past. Mistakes are teachable moments and when we delete them we learn nothing.
I do believe we're on the same side, but the past has already been scrubbed and deleted. I know that it took my own research to learn about the Tulsa Race Massacre, the Three-Fifths Compromise, and Bleeding Kansas. I don't feel that what D&D is suggesting, nor the removal of episodes from shows comes anywhere close to that, which is why I'm arguing so hard in support of it. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
|
|
|
Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2020 : 00:38:18
|
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Caolin, how do /you/ fight bigotry and racism? Is it just by yelling at progressive people on messageboards?
Why does it matter? The fact that you just assume my politics shows that this is turning into some sort of McCarthy-esque purity trial. Would it shock you to learn that I voted for Sanders in 2016 primaries? Or that I was a supporter and volunteer for Warren during the 2020 primaries? You don't have a monopoly on this issue nor on who can be a progressive. Political views aren't monolithic (well they shouldn't be)
I was just commenting on the matters at hand with my own opinions. I wasn't attacking anyone, yet I am being attacked and insulted simply because my opinions aren't shared by those attacking me.
So in the spirit of this forum, which has always been a friendly forum, I suggest that we all back up and just drop this subject. We're all friends and we're all supporters of the Realms. We can have differing opinions, but we need to stop when it starts getting personal. |
|
|
|
keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2020 : 00:40:54
|
| Blackface bad is not a controversial take. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2020 : 01:02:43
|
I once ran for office unopposed, it was to complete a term of a person that resigned.
The election consisted of a Board of Directors.
The Board voted at a meeting not to elect anyone.
One Board member explained why he did not vote for me.
He deemed me to be the wrong race, the wrong gender and the wrong religion. That he was hoping that an assistant to the office I ran for would accept it. That person had indicated before election of not wanting the open office before the election.
For the record that Board member was only correct of two of the three things he deemed disqualified me to hold the office. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2020 : 02:10:20
|
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Blackface bad is not a controversial take.
So you want to continue fighting? If so, the question isn't "Is blackface bad?". The question is, "Is dressing up as a fictitious drow considered blackface?". I don't consider it blackface. To me it's the intention of the act and not the act itself. That's where our difference lies. |
|
|
|
Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2020 : 02:55:09
|
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Blackface bad is not a controversial take.
So you want to continue fighting? If so, the question isn't "Is blackface bad?". The question is, "Is dressing up as a fictitious drow considered blackface?". I don't consider it blackface. To me it's the intention of the act and not the act itself. That's where our difference lies.
That's the crux of it right there: YOU don't consider it blackface, because you know what drow are. Millions of other people don't know what drow are and would consider it blackface.
One of the first things that's said in any training on harassment or racism -- intent does not matter. Perception matters. As I've already noted in this discussion, you don't get to choose what offends someone else.
Just because something doesn't bother you doesn't mean everyone is going to look at it the same way. You yourself said political views aren't monolithic -- neither are views on any other topic.
Also, it's not censorship to not air a TV show. Every single person involved can still do or say whatever they want.
And not showing that episode does not remove it from existence. It's still there -- hell, here we are talking about it, despite it not being on the air! It has clearly not been deleted. People can still learn from it. Saying that not airing the episode is removing the past is the same as the argument that tearing down a statue is changing or erasing history. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2020 : 02:56:06
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Um, they reference Chang's dressing up AS blackface in the scene:
Chang's death in D&D
Context matters. |
|
|
|
Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2020 : 03:11:20
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That's the crux of it right there: YOU don't consider it blackface, because you know what drow are. Millions of other people don't know what drow are and would consider it blackface.
One of the first things that's said in any training on harassment or racism -- intent does not matter. Perception matters. As I've already noted in this discussion, you don't get to choose what offends someone else.
Just because something doesn't bother you doesn't mean everyone is going to look at it the same way. You yourself said political views aren't monolithic -- neither are views on any other topic.
Also, it's not censorship to not air a TV show. Every single person involved can still do or say whatever they want.
And not showing that episode does not remove it from existence. It's still there -- hell, here we are talking about it, despite it not being on the air! It has clearly not been deleted. People can still learn from it. Saying that not airing the episode is removing the past is the same as the argument that tearing down a statue is changing or erasing history.
For the first part, I do not agree that the guidelines of a workplace HR manual should be applied to culture at large. The workplace guidelines are more stringent for a reason. People have to spend a lot of damn time with each other every day. So you have to be extra vigilant about the work atmosphere.
On a wider national/world scale that becomes far too oppressive. You said views on this topic aren't monolithic? Well you're treating it as such in that one view and one view only is being made the rule.
As for your censorship comment, per Websters:
quote:
censor verb
censored; censoring #712;sen(t)-#8203;s#601;-#8203;ri#331; , #712;sen(t)s-#8203;ri#331;
Definition of censor (Entry 2 of 2)
transitive verb
: to examine in order to suppress (see SUPPRESS sense 2) or delete anything considered objectionable
censor the news
also : to suppress or delete as objectionable
censor out indecent passages
Not sure about you, but removing episodes from a streaming platform due to objectionable material certainly meets that definition. It's kind of ironic. We all obviously know that Dan Harmon wasn't intending for this to be racist. Yet people want to take a zero tolerance policy on it. But calling it censorship? No there are exceptions here so it's OK.
|
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2020 : 03:19:41
|
The point wasn't to apply HR guidelines to society -- the point was, as stated MULTIPLE times now, that intent does not matter. Perception matters. You cannot tell me what I do and do not find offensive.
And I'm not treating it as one view -- I'm saying that your view isn't the only one, and that the people airing the show are looking at millions of views, rather than your one.
Not airing a show is not censorship. It's still on DVD. It's still on YouTube and countless other video sites. Clips of it exist, separate from the whole episode. It has not been deleted or suppressed.
Calling that censorship is like saying that you're being censored if you, personally, decide not to say something -- because not airing the episode is the owner's version of not saying something.
The only zero tolerance on display here is you saying no one else can find something offensive if you're fine with it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2020 : 03:24:53
|
| Look, I'm tired and I don't think this back and forth is doing us any good. It's certainly not going to change things. I don't agree with the views some of you have stated and visa versa and it doesn't seem like either side is going to change the others mind. I've been a Candlekeep member for a long ass time and I don't intend to stop frequenting these forums. I don't want to let this all spoil the well so I'm gonna stop responding to this thread. |
|
|
|
AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2020 : 03:33:35
|
quote:
Originally posted by deserk
It is really interesting how the people who clamour for tolerance have absolutely no tolerance for people with different opinions or viewpoints.
I haven't said anything on this thread, mostly because I'm waiting to see what WotC actually does (and I don't even buy their new products these days anyway), but this gets me. It is a bad-faith argument to be intolerant and demand the tolerant to tolerate the intolerant position. It is specifically designed to function as a wedge to push the intolerant position that makes minority groups feel and actually *be* lesser members of society.
As philosopher Karl Popper wrote in "The Open Society and its Enemies":
"Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them."
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2020 : 04:45:48
|
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
Censoring shows and games and all media is nothing but a distraction meant to shield corporations from criticism and make people like you feel better about yourselves.
-This. I disagree with your assertion that it doesn't have any benefit, but at the end of the day, yes, these are distractions that change the topic. An episode of a show (never watched it) was removed because it was in poor taste and problematic? Great. Mission accomplished? Mission decidedly not accomplished. NBC-Comcast spent over $13 million dollars on lobbying firms and another $6.5 on direct campaign/PAC contributions in 2019 to lower their tax burden and gain an advantageous business positions from candidates. Andrew Cuomo signed legislation to make Juneteenth an official state holiday here in New York, fantastic. He still has the lives of thousands on his hands from mishandling the situation here, a situation that has hit minority communities hard because he has, for years, been gutting our healthcare system. DeBlasio is painting Black Lives Matter in front of Trump Tower, cool. He still refuses to address NYPD brutality and defund them.
-Making things more inclusive or less offensive are fine as first steps, but they shouldn't be confused with actual resolutions with the legitimate problems faced. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2020 : 05:19:27
|
I don't think it's fair to call removing an episode of a TV show a distraction. What are they distracting from, exactly? They're drawing attention to their own missteps and a need to correct them.
Sure, some of these companies are doing other things that need to be addressed, but those things aren't in the national limelight right now. We can't fix every single issue simultaneously, especially when some are societal and some are legal shenanigans.
And I'm pretty sure no one called the removal of that episode "mission accomplished." It's a first step, and hopefully not the last. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
237 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2020 : 11:36:16
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I have tolerance for everything but hatred and bigotry. If you are defending things that support discrimination, or racism, even racism that was unintentional when written, then yes, I have no tolerance for you. I'm a pacifist too, but I have one loophole: I'll punch Nazis every time I see them.
To think is not a crime. To have a different opinion is not a crime. To commit a crime such as physical assault is however a crime. I don't know where you are from, but generally most of us who post on these boards are from Western democracies, and a key function of making a democracy work is respecting the rights of people you don't like.
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
I haven't said anything on this thread, mostly because I'm waiting to see what WotC actually does (and I don't even buy their new products these days anyway), but this gets me. It is a bad-faith argument to be intolerant and demand the tolerant to tolerate the intolerant position. It is specifically designed to function as a wedge to push the intolerant position that makes minority groups feel and actually *be* lesser members of society.
As philosopher Karl Popper wrote in "The Open Society and its Enemies":
"Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them."
Jeff
So has political discourse just become a contest of drowning your opposition with the accusations of intolerance? And also who gives you or anyone the authority to deem who is intolerable?
I would just like to say I pretty much am on line with diversity and inclusion in DND. I want everyone to feel welcome. I remember this being an issue that greatly frustrated me back in the early 2000s when we couldn't have LGBT characters in official D&D books, due to Hasbro/WotC's fear of upsetting the Bible belt in America. And also I seriously dislike how WotC still nearly only makes adventure books and materials focused on the most "white" parts of Faerun, i.e. the North & Sword Coast. We already have plenty of material on those areas, give us something new and fresh. I know Ed wants to show us that side of the world but it's quite evident that WotC doesn't.
I don't think drow or orcs are allusions to any groups human beings of the RW, and I think that it is a bit disheartening how some people can can believe that, to the point where WotC has to take a stance that essentially conforms with the worst assertion. Every culture on Earth has had evil monstrous beings as part of their folklore and mythology.
I am all for humanizing the various D&D races to the point where we can understand them for why they are as they, but not to the point where can't let them fulfil their archetypical roles. Drow should largely be the way they traditionally are, as should orcs, but with some element of free will and deviation. This is a fantasy setting, and every good story needs conflict and villains. We might want a utopia in our world, but who on Earth wants to play a DnD game in a utopia, where there is essentially no need for heroes? |
Edited by - deserk on 28 Jun 2020 11:55:06 |
|
|
|
Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2020 : 13:11:03
|
Orc or Drow allusions? nope.
I think Klingons are allusions to both Russians and a bit of Germans by the way Tlnghan'hol sounds though. 
|
|
|
|
Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2020 : 14:03:06
|
quote:
Originally posted by deserk
To think is not a crime. To have a different opinion is not a crime. To commit a crime such as physical assault is however a crime. I don't know where you are from, but generally most of us who post on these boards are from Western democracies, and a key function of making a democracy work is respecting the rights of people you don't like.
If living in the good ol' USoA for the entirety of my life has taught me anything, its that we Americans are actually pretty terrible at "respecting" anything. 9/10 it comes down to Politics or Religion that we draw the line at and anyone else on the other isle can go jump off a cliff. Look at our justice system! It's filled with litigation and lawsuits about discrimination, from employees and customers alike. No, there's no leg to stand on in terms of "democracies" when people are discriminated against for just wanting a Wedding Cake or firing someone because of tattoos or the color or style of their hair. Nope, the "respect" boat didn't just sail away, it never made it to port.
quote:
Originally posted by deserk
So has political discourse just become a contest of drowning your opposition with the accusations of intolerance? And also who gives you or anyone the authority to deem who is intolerable?
I'd say people fighting against changes to a game (one that quite easily can have zero ramifications or implications on your actual life and own gaming time) simply because they refuse to see the context in any other light might be a sign of intolerance.
quote:
Originally posted by deserk
I would just like to say I pretty much am on line with diversity and inclusion in DND. I want everyone to feel welcome.
It's hard to say that and then turn around and say the Cultural elements of Drow must remain almost always evil unless a very small set standard of elements be met so they can find themselves outside said cultural norm and be accepted in the rest of the world. So if said person of color wanted to play a drow or dark elf, they then have to fight oppression, bigotry, ridicule, on the constant AND have a mostly depressing and cliche backstory as to how they escaped their servitude to Lloth as well. And here I thought D&D was about escapism. Silly me.
quote:
Originally posted by deserk
I remember this being an issue that greatly frustrated me back in the early 2000s when we couldn't have LGBT characters in official D&D books, due to Hasbro/WotC's fear of upsetting the Bible belt in America. And also I seriously dislike how WotC still nearly only makes adventure books and materials focused on the most "white" parts of Faerun, i.e. the North & Sword Coast. We already have plenty of material on those areas, give us something new and fresh. I know Ed wants to show us that side of the world but it's quite evident that WotC doesn't.
Well there's something we wholeheartedly agree on. I'd take anywhere else on Faerūn than more Sword Coast.
quote:
Originally posted by deserk
I don't think drow or orcs are allusions to any groups human beings of the RW, and I think that it is a bit disheartening how some people can can believe that, to the point where WotC has to take a stance that essentially conforms with the worst assertion. Every culture on Earth has had evil monstrous beings as part of their folklore and mythology.
As Wooly stated, it's not about what you think. I think, overall, Maztica and Mulhorand are garbage places with zero intriguing qualities, exceptionally lazy writing, boring "Gods", and is overall feckless. I feel the setting is worse with these areas here and was happy they got kicked off during the Spellplague. Doesn't mean many many others feel otherwise (and apparently so, because they were brought back).
But the Realms isn't about me. I don't get to make the decisions. They [WotC] pull their info from a lot of other sources none of us are privy to. And as they listen to their minority fans, they get a better perspective of how to further continue the setting and game. Obviously they got intel that suggests to them that this change is forthcoming, so ignore it and move on or jump on board, but no one's going to force you.
quote:
Originally posted by deserk
I am all for humanizing the various D&D races to the point where we can understand them for why they are as they, but not to the point where can't let them fulfil their archetypical roles. Drow should largely be the way they traditionally are, as should orcs, but with some element of free will and deviation. This is a fantasy setting, and every good story needs conflict and villains. We might want a utopia in our world, but who on Earth wants to play a DnD game in a utopia, where there is essentially no need for heroes?
It's been 40+ years, its lame at this point. Honestly, I"m sick of the monopoly these races have on Evil. I'm sick of the stereotypical backstories PCs make for their Drow or Orc/Half-Orc character because there's little creative writing room as a whole.
"Oh, so you escaped the wickedness of Menzoberranzan, how original."
"Oh, so you got separated from your Raiding party and never made your way back down to the Underdark and now that you've seen surface races aren't terrible and wicked, you want to stay!" Resourceful.
"Oh, you're apart of Bregan D'aerthe! A classic!"
*yawn*. For Orcs/Half-Orcs, just basically the same but switch Menzoberranzan with Many-Arrows. Switch "separated from raiding party" to "captured during a raid, then saw how better the non-Orcs are". Or finally "I'm the product of rape, dropped off at an abbey and raised to be a Paladin/Hero/etc."
Why are these the same stories all the time? Because the Lore for these races in the past 40+ is shite. It's repetitive and overplayed. All the plots these races are involved in falter and die, because they're usually unimaginative. Lolth is at it again, trying to secure her spot in the Demonweb Pits of the Abyss or She's trying to subvert the Weave or she's back to killing her children and other Underdark Gods again...and again....and again.
Please give us something new! |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2020 : 14:16:28
|
quote:
I don't think drow or orcs are allusions to any groups human beings of the RW, and I think that it is a bit disheartening how some people can can believe that
As previously mentioned, that's a strawman. No one's stating that the drow or orcs are written as allusions to RW cultures. As I said in a previous comment, it's that there are chances that a PoC coming to D&D, and seeing that the only dark-skinned elves are the unredeemably evil ones, will feel excluded by the game, or will feel uncomfortable with it.
Generally, when it comes to the qualities associated to the "inhrently evil races", the parallels to humans being duhumanized as morally right to kill, typical of the colonialist mindset, are also easily drawn--even if the races aren't associated with real humans, the narrative has similarities. Inclusivity is about making everyone feel welcomed and represented in the game, which is why stereotypes like this are problematic. They can indeed repel people from D&D.
Because, lets face it, this:
"the light-skinned elves are the good guys, even though they genocided a whole nation of good Eilistraean dark elves, and exterminated A LOT of dark elves before with the Sundering. However, those pesky dark elves are all bad because a group of them turned to dark deities and because they killed people too, so they must all get cursed by the good-guy, light-skinned god that makes their skin even darker to reflect their dark hearts"
is icky.
And finally, frankly, the worldbuilding behind the mainstream drow, aside from being the definition of"Stupid Evil" (which is *bad*), contrasts with the scenario painted by the history of the elven people in FR, which just *begs* to be devolped into a far, FAR more nuanced current situaton than "dark elves bad, light elves good" that WotC has doggedly pushed for years.
Really, the FR drow have a rich history; Ilythiir had flourished under Vhaeraun without its people constantly going after each other's throat, kicking puppies, and eating kittens. They were warlike, sure, but not "Stupid Evil". Why did Lolth suddenly become the only one for them after the Descent? It's a random design decision. The Eilistraean survivors of Miyeritar carry the legacy of a culture that had become the greatest hub of arts and magic of Faerun. They managed to rebuild and find a resurgence within Cormanthyr, allied with the elves of Myth Drannor. Why did they all of sudden disappear into nothingness, why wasn't this developed or explored more? Those two cultures still carry the legacy of millennia of history of prosperity from BEFORE Lolth was even remembered, they don't deserve to be niche, or to be disregarded, nor it's logical design for the drow to all be "shackled by Lolth" or whatever other deus-ex-machina bordering excuse the narrative uses to keep them Stupid Evil. In Ed's Realms Lolth's FAR from this monolithic; she has about 50% of the drow following her. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 28 Jun 2020 14:42:21 |
|
|
|
Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2020 : 15:38:12
|
quote:
Originally posted by deserk
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I have tolerance for everything but hatred and bigotry. If you are defending things that support discrimination, or racism, even racism that was unintentional when written, then yes, I have no tolerance for you. I'm a pacifist too, but I have one loophole: I'll punch Nazis every time I see them.
To think is not a crime. To have a different opinion is not a crime. To commit a crime such as physical assault is however a crime. I don't know where you are from, but generally most of us who post on these boards are from Western democracies, and a key function of making a democracy work is respecting the rights of people you don't like.
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
I haven't said anything on this thread, mostly because I'm waiting to see what WotC actually does (and I don't even buy their new products these days anyway), but this gets me. It is a bad-faith argument to be intolerant and demand the tolerant to tolerate the intolerant position. It is specifically designed to function as a wedge to push the intolerant position that makes minority groups feel and actually *be* lesser members of society.
As philosopher Karl Popper wrote in "The Open Society and its Enemies":
"Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them."
Jeff
So has political discourse just become a contest of drowning your opposition with the accusations of intolerance? And also who gives you or anyone the authority to deem who is intolerable?
I would just like to say I pretty much am on line with diversity and inclusion in DND. I want everyone to feel welcome. I remember this being an issue that greatly frustrated me back in the early 2000s when we couldn't have LGBT characters in official D&D books, due to Hasbro/WotC's fear of upsetting the Bible belt in America. And also I seriously dislike how WotC still nearly only makes adventure books and materials focused on the most "white" parts of Faerun, i.e. the North & Sword Coast. We already have plenty of material on those areas, give us something new and fresh. I know Ed wants to show us that side of the world but it's quite evident that WotC doesn't.
I don't think drow or orcs are allusions to any groups human beings of the RW, and I think that it is a bit disheartening how some people can can believe that, to the point where WotC has to take a stance that essentially conforms with the worst assertion. Every culture on Earth has had evil monstrous beings as part of their folklore and mythology.
I am all for humanizing the various D&D races to the point where we can understand them for why they are as they, but not to the point where can't let them fulfil their archetypical roles. Drow should largely be the way they traditionally are, as should orcs, but with some element of free will and deviation. This is a fantasy setting, and every good story needs conflict and villains. We might want a utopia in our world, but who on Earth wants to play a DnD game in a utopia, where there is essentially no need for heroes?
First off, my response to your take on what I said. Yes, Nazis deserved to be punched, deserve to be arrested, deserve to spend as much time in jail as it takes to realize their misbegotten belief that only whites are people is wrong and abhorrent to humanity. If you want to disagree with me on using violence, that's fine. As I said, I'm a pacifist, and I've gotten my ass kicked for refusing to fight back. But I will never let a Nazi just walk away.
As for the second part, you want more diversity and give more free will to the drow and orcs so they aren't evil just for being born into their culture. That's exactly what D&D is trying to make happen. If you honestly believe the next books are going to be about how Menzoberranzan is a peaceful utopia, or the orc tribe is now a farming commune, then you're blowing their decision way out of proportion. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
|
|
|
farinal
Learned Scribe
Turkey
270 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2020 : 16:42:29
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Um, they reference Chang's dressing up AS blackface in the scene:
Chang's death in D&D
Isn't that just the evidence that shows it is not an offensive racial slur?
|
|
|
|
Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2020 : 16:55:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by farinal
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Um, they reference Chang's dressing up AS blackface in the scene:
Chang's death in D&D
Isn't that just the evidence that shows it is not an offensive racial slur?
So, because they called it blackface (and in an earlier part of the scene "a hate crime"), it means it isn't offensive. Is that what you're asking? |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Official: Diversity and Dungeons & Dragons
Topic Locked
