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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3428 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2020 :  03:24:44  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

I've only skim read parts of the Evermeet novel. Until starting this thread I'd only ever read the moonshae novels in full to mine for information while I was developing that region.

Evermeet is a long way off.

-Ah, OK. Well Evermeet has more about Kymil, his motivations, his associates, and his fate.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1141 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2020 :  10:04:13  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And you're going to need to buckle in because it's got more lore than Candlekeep in that novel. Of course, again, there's a load of problems in that book with the "current day" plot that somehow a huge armada is assembled on the Sword Coast and launched and sails all the way to Evermeet without ANYONE knowing about it. I guess "a wizard did it" or all the elven spy network and resources on the mainland "just kind of forgot" to look at this or "made a mistake" or whatever anyone wants to say to defend this horrible plot contrivance.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34002 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2020 :  15:27:07  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

And you're going to need to buckle in because it's got more lore than Candlekeep in that novel. Of course, again, there's a load of problems in that book with the "current day" plot that somehow a huge armada is assembled on the Sword Coast and launched and sails all the way to Evermeet without ANYONE knowing about it. I guess "a wizard did it" or all the elven spy network and resources on the mainland "just kind of forgot" to look at this or "made a mistake" or whatever anyone wants to say to defend this horrible plot contrivance.



With cities that are weeks of travel time apart, I don't see any issue at all with picking some isolated spot on the map and gathering naval forces there.

It could have also been that the fleet sailed from different ports at staggered intervals and then gathered in one spot.

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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3428 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2020 :  16:56:03  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-They also had, if I am not mistaken, divine intervention (rather than Kymil having divine inspiration). Would not be hard to believe that the deity in question assisting them would be able to assist in cloaking the ships from prying eyes and the wards of Evermeet.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1141 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2020 :  22:18:53  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wooly - you don't amass ships and an army on the Sword Coast without someone catching wind of it. An army and fleet that size would take months and months to assemble. Sorry, logistics don't work. SOMEONE would catch wind of it and go ... wtf is there an army and massive fleet being put together. Unless it was magically conjured up by a god out of no where, which - fine. That's bad writing, but whatever.

Travel times don't really matter in a world where a goddamn SILVER DRAGON is what spots the fleet. You have giant eagles and gryphons and magic of all kinds to let people know what is going on. There are harpers, Lords Alliance, and elves and elf allies up and down the sword coast. The minute an army and ships were ordered, someone would get wind of it.

The amount of defending bad writing on this board is a bit sad to me.
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1141 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2020 :  22:21:54  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also, who is paying for all of this? Kymil's assets would have been frozen and all his connections would have been investigated, apparently this is the reason you guys all like that he was spared is because he knows things about who is plotting to kill the Moonflowers. So was he just locked up and no leads? Did Lloth give him enough money to buy all these ships and mercenaries?

And were NO elven diviners present on Evermeet looking out for threats? Wouldn't there be a whole contigent of elven archmages whose sole purpose would be to be looking out for threats to Evermeet? And somehow everyone missed a massive fleet being gathered and sent out towards them until it was within striking distacne? Despite that taking at least a few months to get together and sail?

Don't worry, we won't get such any answers or logic. But yes, it's all great writing. A god did it. Sigh.


Edited by - Seravin on 23 Aug 2020 22:26:00
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1141 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2020 :  22:30:16  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-They also had, if I am not mistaken, divine intervention (rather than Kymil having divine inspiration). Would not be hard to believe that the deity in question assisting them would be able to assist in cloaking the ships from prying eyes and the wards of Evermeet.



And to be fair Lord Karsus, this is the only explanation that works for me is that massive divine intervention came into play to launch the attack. And if your plot only works if you have divine intervention/deus ex machina, I don't really like it personally, but at least it somewhat holds up in this world.

HOWEVER - don't the GOOD elven gods in the seldarine have I dunno somewhat of a vested interest in Evermeet not being sacked and destroyed by agents of Lloth? Why do the evil gods get to intervene directly and attack mortals that are loved by the good gods, but the good gods do nothing but let it happen? This is also very problematic for me. I think I'm applying too much logic to what is essentially teenage fiction, but I hold Elaine to very high standard cause she's so good.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34002 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2020 :  22:34:19  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

Wooly - you don't amass ships and an army on the Sword Coast without someone catching wind of it. An army and fleet that size would take months and months to assemble. Sorry, logistics don't work. SOMEONE would catch wind of it and go ... wtf is there an army and massive fleet being put together. Unless it was magically conjured up by a god out of no where, which - fine. That's bad writing, but whatever.

Travel times don't really matter in a world where a goddamn SILVER DRAGON is what spots the fleet. You have giant eagles and gryphons and magic of all kinds to let people know what is going on. There are harpers, Lords Alliance, and elves and elf allies up and down the sword coast. The minute an army and ships were ordered, someone would get wind of it.

The amount of defending bad writing on this board is a bit sad to me.




It is not bad writing. All you'd have to do is have a few dozen agents -- they gather the ships and the armed forces without telling anyone what they're being hired for. Then they sail, no more than one or two ships at a time, from multiple locations. They gather the ships in some isolated spot -- some stretch of the coast 100 miles from anywhere, or some little island 100 miles offshore. And it's done.

Even if your theoretical random dragon spots them, what's he going to do? Swoop down and politely ask if they're planning on invading somewhere, then hightail it for the nearest major city to warn someone? No, he's going to see them, wonder casually what the smallfurs are up to, and maybe make a note to mention it to a wizard friend, the next time they talk -- six months from now.

This is not at all implausible... Just look at real world history. Even as recently as WWII, with aerial reconnaissance and radars and KNOWING there were hostiles about, there were still surprise attacks from ships that the enemy did not know was coming.

Secretly building an invasion fleet in a fantasy world is not bad writing, unless real world history is also bad writing.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 23 Aug 2020 22:37:49
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Demzer
Senior Scribe

750 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2020 :  22:43:10  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

... unless real world history is also bad writing.



Real world is f****d up, who even wrote the stuff we are living through?
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1141 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2020 :  22:49:28  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh Wooly. You can't compare WW2 earth with Faerun and I'm sad you're making that case.

1) Divination magic from some of the most powerful mages in Faerun would be constantly looking for threats? Oh right a god did it.
2) Once Kymil was freed from prison did the Harpers not immedately go on the alert for the regicidal prisoner? Oh right a god did it.
3) How did Kymil amass the money to pay for this fleet? He's not the nation of Japan, he's one elf fugitive with no money? Oh right a god did it.
4) How did not one Harper/elf/lord alliance/good faction hear about any of the ships being amassed or mercenaries being bought in the months it would take them to get this together? Oh right a god did it.

It is objectively bad writing or we would have gotten some information as to how Kymil got all this together in the book. We didn't get any of that information, it was just there after Lloth freed him.

Your comparison to real world is stupid, let's see in today's world if any nation could build a giant navy and not have NATO know about it. That's much more apt given the powers at the hands of Evermeet who can directly speak with the Seldarine when required, and command Silver Dragons to protect them among a hundred other powerful protections.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3302 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2020 :  22:53:55  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Secretly building an invasion fleet in a fantasy world is not bad writing, unless real world history is also bad writing


Real world is indeed bad narrative, though the reason is not related to logic or to things making sense. The reason is that a story is meant to provide a link between events not only in terms of logic but also of delivering a statement about a theme; RW doesn't really do that (well, it rarely does anyway, or only does so over a far far longer period of time than a story covers, in that history followw certain patterns).

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 23 Aug 2020 22:56:17
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1141 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2020 :  22:55:51  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It would have been so much better if Lolth had just resurrected an executed Kymil, then opened a gate to Evermeet and sent demons through it that Kymil lead along with his gold elf sympathizers. You get the same story of a brutal assault on Evermeet with none of the plot holes. The good Seldarine could have been spending their time trying to close the gate or sending agents to fight the demons to show they were actually capable of doing something other than letting evil attack their prized realm.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3302 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2020 :  22:57:39  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

It would have been so much better if Lolth had just resurrected an executed Kymil, then opened a gate to Evermeet and sent demons through it that Kymil lead along with his gold elf sympathizers. You get the same story of a brutal assault on Evermeet with none of the plot holes. The good Seldarine could have been spending their time trying to close the gate or sending agents to fight the demons to show they were actually capable of doing something other than letting evil attack their prized realm.




This raises the question of how can a portal created by an intermediate power (at best) not be immediately shut down by a whole friggin' pantheon in a split second.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 23 Aug 2020 22:58:05
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1141 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2020 :  23:02:33  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
This raises the question of how can a portal created by an intermediate power (at best) not be immediately shut down by a whole friggin' pantheon in a split second.


Agreed with you. Writing in a shared setting with Gods and magic is hard.

Edited by - Seravin on 23 Aug 2020 23:03:04
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3302 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2020 :  23:07:13  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is why, IMO, when you make a setting like this, creatures like gods should either be immeasurably powerful but unable to directly intrude mortals affairs, or able to directly intervene in the world but not as powerful.

Magic has counters (divinations can be countered by a variety of spells, for example), but gods being able to intervene directly AND being so powerful creates a scenario where high stakes must inevitably require some contrived setup of checking a certain god with another equally powerful thing to keep them distracted and unable to stop the massive threat or whatever.

Points like the one I made occurred quite a few times over the history of FR (why X god didn't stop Y disaster; they should obviously have been able to do so). It's the result of the slippery slope towards hypermeddling gods. And while I do like the gods to actually do stuff, otherwise I don't even see the point of having them as actual characters, that shouldn't be in the form of creating this cold war scenario where nothing happens or the apocalypse happens, because that corners writers into a setup where they can never have high stakes stories without involving a convoluted explanation on why a certain countermove that should have been made wasn't.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 23 Aug 2020 23:17:09
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2534 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2020 :  23:19:46  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Or consistency about when the gods can directly interfere (for example, saving a population or something). I like divine interference, but perhaps a clearer cut definition on what circumstances allow them to interact directly (and what counts as directly. Eilistraee appears and dances with her followers, Torm appears to help defend a stronghold--or their avatars, do, anyway). When is direct "too direct", and when does it count as indirect (Talos sending a storm)? Clearer cut definitions may have helped stem confusion.

Some gods are also just more likely to interact with their followers than others.

Sweet water and light laughter

Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 23 Aug 2020 23:20:31
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3302 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2020 :  23:31:41  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not referring to "fluff" intervention (like dancing or helping someone with everyday life and so on that you pointed out for Eilistraee), I'm referring to things that can impact plots in dramatic ways (well, a conforting presence or direct help can affect a story about the sturggles of an individal in a massive way, so let's say I was referring to plots like the invasion of Evermeet. Bigger picture plots).

If you want a god(dess) appearing to save a population, you should cut their power down significantly, otherwise you can never have high stakes plot without putting that protector god(dess) "in jail" (o to speak) first. Or you have them intervene only through blessings and stuff, and not directly. More powerful gods generally referain from directly intervening because of the understanding that, if a conflict that involved followers of one deity constantly came with the intervention of that deity (and the opposing deity too), the world would eventually become a smoking crater.

I'd say demigods (the lower end spectrum lesser deities at most) can be acceptable for direct intervention, because powerful mortals can stand a chance against them, and the kind of stories that involve massive elements where you'd expect gods to show up also include powerful mortals.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 23 Aug 2020 23:32:41
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2534 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2020 :  23:46:16  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I enjoy "fluff" intervention, myself lol. But okay, bigger picture stuff. I would still say there should be a clear definition of what counts as direct vs indirect. An avatar appearing is obviously direct, but if, say, Corellon sent up a storm to protect Evermeet (he isn't a god of storms, but w/e), and waves washed invading ships away. You don't have the god himself appearing, but you do have him directly "touching" the mortal world via the storm. I think this kind of thing should be allowed, but I bring it up because, to me anyway, the line between direct and indirect intervention can blur. Acting through clerics and such is indirect, but other things can be a "gray area", at least that is how it seems to me.

I agree that two deities directly appearing and conflicting would result in the world being a crater lol, I just think there are instances of "gray."

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34002 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2020 :  23:53:43  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

Oh Wooly. You can't compare WW2 earth with Faerun and I'm sad you're making that case.

1) Divination magic from some of the most powerful mages in Faerun would be constantly looking for threats? Oh right a god did it.
2) Once Kymil was freed from prison did the Harpers not immedately go on the alert for the regicidal prisoner? Oh right a god did it.
3) How did Kymil amass the money to pay for this fleet? He's not the nation of Japan, he's one elf fugitive with no money? Oh right a god did it.
4) How did not one Harper/elf/lord alliance/good faction hear about any of the ships being amassed or mercenaries being bought in the months it would take them to get this together? Oh right a god did it.

It is objectively bad writing or we would have gotten some information as to how Kymil got all this together in the book. We didn't get any of that information, it was just there after Lloth freed him.

Your comparison to real world is stupid, let's see in today's world if any nation could build a giant navy and not have NATO know about it. That's much more apt given the powers at the hands of Evermeet who can directly speak with the Seldarine when required, and command Silver Dragons to protect them among a hundred other powerful protections.




1) They did have divine assistance, but even if they didn't, how many mages are sitting around actively trying to scry for hidden invasion fleets? Most scrying magic, you need to know what you're looking for.
2) Who says the Harpers didn't look? It doesn't take divine magic to defeat scrying, and it's not like the Harpers had nothing else to do.
3) Who said Kymil had no money? He was very wealthy before he was busted -- it's quite likely that even if the Harpers were actively looking for all of his funds that they missed some. And he clearly had allies -- if he couldn't bankroll everything, his allies could.
4) Again, if it's spread out and done in intervals by different trusted parties, who is going to notice that? "Oh, this ship was hired by an elf in Baldur's Gate, and this one was hired by an elf in Waterdeep two tendays later -- those are obviously related!" . Besides, show me where it's written that every single coastal city knows the full details of all seaborne activities in other cities.

And we're not talking about the real world of today. We're talking about a fantasy world where you insist its impossible to launch a secret attack by sea, and I'm pointing out that even with known hostilities, better means of finding the enemy, and better means of communication, the same thing still happened in the real world less than a century ago.

The fact that you don't think it's possible -- even though it clearly is -- does not make it bad writing.

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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3302 Posts

Posted - 24 Aug 2020 :  00:08:24  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

I enjoy "fluff" intervention, myself lol. But okay, bigger picture stuff. I would still say there should be a clear definition of what counts as direct vs indirect. An avatar appearing is obviously direct, but if, say, Corellon sent up a storm to protect Evermeet (he isn't a god of storms, but w/e), and waves washed invading ships away. You don't have the god himself appearing, but you do have him directly "touching" the mortal world via the storm. I think this kind of thing should be allowed, but I bring it up because, to me anyway, the line between direct and indirect intervention can blur. Acting through clerics and such is indirect, but other things can be a "gray area", at least that is how it seems to me.

I agree that two deities directly appearing and conflicting would result in the world being a crater lol, I just think there are instances of "gray."



Direct acts that don't require the deity to show up can lead to disaster too, though. If you start sending massive storms, then another deity may feel it's ok to make volcanoes erupt to protect (or favor) their followers, then yet another deity will see earthquakes as an acceptable course of action, etc... Even without going into explosive catastrophes, you may have famine and plagues come into play. It would be a mess tbh. For such deities, I feel that direct involvement could open the floodgates to ever escalating divine conflict, so the only way to prevent that is the system of agreeing to not directly intervene in this sense that On Hallowed Ground proposed. Only demipowers and a few lesser powers were excluded from it.

I tend to agree with it, in that only gods who can't cause damage on this masive scale, or singlehandedly wipe an army should be allowed to intervene directly. Otherwise, you will never be able to have high stakes plots without including massively powerful gods constantly trying to one-up each other.


To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 24 Aug 2020 00:11:24
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2534 Posts

Posted - 24 Aug 2020 :  00:41:48  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

I enjoy "fluff" intervention, myself lol. But okay, bigger picture stuff. I would still say there should be a clear definition of what counts as direct vs indirect. An avatar appearing is obviously direct, but if, say, Corellon sent up a storm to protect Evermeet (he isn't a god of storms, but w/e), and waves washed invading ships away. You don't have the god himself appearing, but you do have him directly "touching" the mortal world via the storm. I think this kind of thing should be allowed, but I bring it up because, to me anyway, the line between direct and indirect intervention can blur. Acting through clerics and such is indirect, but other things can be a "gray area", at least that is how it seems to me.

I agree that two deities directly appearing and conflicting would result in the world being a crater lol, I just think there are instances of "gray."



Direct acts that don't require the deity to show up can lead to disaster too, though. If you start sending massive storms, then another deity may feel it's ok to make volcanoes erupt to protect (or favor) their followers, then yet another deity will see earthquakes as an acceptable course of action, etc... Even without going into explosive catastrophes, you may have famine and plagues come into play. It would be a mess tbh. For such deities, I feel that direct involvement could open the floodgates to ever escalating divine conflict, so the only way to prevent that is the system of agreeing to not directly intervene in this sense that On Hallowed Ground proposed. Only demipowers and a few lesser powers were excluded from it.

I tend to agree with it, in that only gods who can't cause damage on this masive scale, or singlehandedly wipe an army should be allowed to intervene directly. Otherwise, you will never be able to have high stakes plots without including massively powerful gods constantly trying to one-up each other.



Oh definitely. My point in bringing it up is because I think there is some inconsistency (both for readers and authors) on what constitutes as "direct interference". A storm or a volcano can be seen as indirect by some, as the god itself isn't actually there, and is acting through a "natural" agent. Others would see it as direct, because, while the god isn't there (as an avatar), they are directly "touching" the world and affecting the outcome of the conflict. This is why I pointed out it can be a "gray area". I agree that greater gods using weather or volcanoes would be just as catastrophic as them physically fighting on the prime material, but I think the idea of what is "direct vs indirect" interference isn't always cut and dry, which is why you have some instances, like only lesser powers being able to interfere, but in other instances, a greater god will send a storm to save a population from enemies (for example). Which, of course, isn't the same as the "fluff" intervention of a deity sending a rain storm to end a drought.

Sweet water and light laughter
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maransreth
Learned Scribe

Australia
121 Posts

Posted - 24 Aug 2020 :  13:09:38  Show Profile Send maransreth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

Also, who is paying for all of this?



If I remember correctly it was something along the lines of "the island is full of magic and treasure and you can loot what you like, so no need to pay you, aarrhggghhh".

or no need for payment, just as long as I can get back at those filthy elves for what they have done to me.

Then again I might be wrong.
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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
5279 Posts

Posted - 24 Aug 2020 :  15:49:22  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Partway through the Canticle, just got to some kind of weird kinky sex scene in a library between Cadderly and Danica that was shockingly unexpected.

My mind is running away with an Orcus heresy within a Talona sect at Castle Trinity.

My reading of the book so far indicates that Druzil manipulated Aballister all along into summoning him and working on the Chaos Curse, it doesnt appear to have anything to do with Talona (yet). It sounds like Druzil found the ancient recipe in some Jhaamdath or Chondathan text in his old master's library and then escaped to find a new master with greater resources. it would have been quite easy for the resourceful imp to invade the dreams of Aballister and whisper Druzil's name, or to disguise himself as some old hag and claim to be the avatar of Talona.

Thankfully there have been no really long fight scenes yet, and quite a lot of lore about the Edificant Library and Castle Trinity, but i doubt very much if that matches with the rest of the realms (the Most Fatal Horror being a title of the high priest of Talona i'm highly suspicious of). But all the details are easily sorted because its clear the sects of Talona, Deneir, and Oghma are isolated sects and therefore do not conform to the wider churches.

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maransreth
Learned Scribe

Australia
121 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2020 :  08:12:54  Show Profile Send maransreth a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Gary,
Will you be going through the short stories in the "Realms of ..." anthologies looking for lore? Or are the stories too short?

I recently started reading Realms of Valor - only two stories in so far. The first is the infamous Elminster at the Magefair. The second is a story from Douglas Niles about Pawldo the halfling. Interesting story about a castle that appears only on certain nights.
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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
5279 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2020 :  08:15:20  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm intending to do them all, at least as far as the advent of 4e, I might go to the advent of 5e.

I'm having a bit of a break at the moment to develop the church of myrkul and keep my creative juices flowing. Another few weeks and I'll get back to reading the Canticle.

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