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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1141 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2020 :  17:53:54  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ed had nothing to do with the Anauroch in The Parched Sea, I had that confirmed a while back. All of the quasi-arabic references are Troy Denning and the TSR editors of the time, and not in Ed's version of the Realms.
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1141 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2020 :  17:57:16  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good catch on Cyric's reference, given that Troy wrote Waterdeep when Cyric became a god you'd think he'd be aware of timelines. Sigh. *golf clap to the author and editors*
What I guess works is that if Lander's mother worshiped Myrkul, and since Myrkul isn't a god anymore and Cyric absorbed the god of the dead portfolio, Lander just swaps out Cyric for the dead god's name since that's the equivalent now? I think she must have worshiped the god of death/the dead because he references Cyric as the equivalent to the god of the dead named by Ruha?


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ElfBane
Learned Scribe

USA
159 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2020 :  18:58:45  Show Profile Send ElfBane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

quote:
Originally posted by ElfBane

Under "Anauroch Lore"; the desert is 2500 sqm, 600 miles across... would mean its only 4.16 miles wide. Not a bad tradeoff.



Well the math works, so in part it depends on what the narrow desert is bordered by. Either that there is an error in the provided data.



If Fonstad's Forgotten Realms Atlas is considered official;

there are two E/W wide points- the Ascore Ruin to Ghaethluntar Great mount, ~650 miles.
the next E/W wide point is the Fallen Lands to the edge of the Tortured Land, also ~650 miles.

the S/N wide point is from the Goblin Marches to map's end, ~ 1075 miles.

So, the greatest it could be is 698,750 sqm. But from N to S, the width is irregular, so we can probably knock off at least a third, making the area ~ 487,000 sqm.

So yea, there's an error in the provided data.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
5279 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2020 :  20:30:54  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Given that the quote came from a bedine tribe that appears to have ranged only in the eastern part of anauroch around the survivor state remnants their measurement of it could be limited to the lands they inhabit, and one would have to question the accuracy of their measuring methods in either case (if they talk of the whole of anauroch or just their part).

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ElfBane
Learned Scribe

USA
159 Posts

Posted - 15 Aug 2020 :  09:55:05  Show Profile Send ElfBane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I prefer to put the blame where I suspect it lies... IOW don't let Troy Denning design any space craft.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2534 Posts

Posted - 15 Aug 2020 :  21:41:07  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison


Elfshadow next, should be good, everyone seems to rate it highly.



I personally loved Elfshadow, and indeed all the Song and Swords series.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34002 Posts

Posted - 15 Aug 2020 :  23:27:27  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison


Elfshadow next, should be good, everyone seems to rate it highly.



I personally loved Elfshadow, and indeed all the Song and Swords series.



I got that book for Christmas, the year it came out. I read the entire thing that day.

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5986 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2020 :  00:55:06  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You're doing some brilliant work here Gary. Just a minor suggestion - it would be even more brilliant if you would attach a page reference to all of the lore snippets you are showcasing (and specifying if they are hardcover/paperback/e-book). More work, I know, but that would be the icing on the cake.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3428 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2020 :  04:14:50  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-I remember really disliking Ruha, but I've forgotten in the years since why. Something to do with the improbability of her actually becoming a Harper.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
5279 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2020 :  08:01:24  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I will try and add page numbers, however, I suspect my pdfs are converts from another file format so the page numbers may be meaningless (I'll try and use an epub copy if i have one).

I'll start from elfshadow, I'm not going back to already read novels as I'm not sure I could face reading some of them more than once.


As for Ruha, I thought her characterisation was good, a young girl, outcast by her society, struggling to find acceptance, but facing rejection at every corner.
She certainly isn't a Harper in Parched Seas, although I could never be certain that Lander was a Harper either.
His father was a Harper friend, and maybe a Harper Agent and Lander may have inherited his pin but there is no mention of Lander going on any training or missions for the Harper until he was sat in the Old Skull inn and overhead Storm, elminster and a bunch of others discussing what to do about the zhents in anauroch.
I also got the feeling that this conversation was staged for him to overhear so it's likely the shadowdale harpers (who are not part of the new berdusk harpers) were testing him with his first mission.
Not that it matters. Lander was a harper by the end and if Ruha has his pin then she can join the harpers (assuming they dont think she stole it) at least that's what song of the saurials implies.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
5279 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2020 :  14:50:55  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm afraid page count is not going to be possible.

The various formats i own have a varying page count. Elfshadow for instance has 167 pages in pdf, 588 in epub, and no pages in rtf or txt.

I've checked the paperback version and it has 320 pages and i can't find a hardback.

I guess that is the problem with using digital media, pages are mutable based upon the size of the window and the font.

If it helps, i've tried to use the same key words as they appear in the book, although sometimes i've had to paraphrase, and in some cases i've had to write my own sentences because i'm piecing together bits across multiple pages. So if you own a digital version of the book you can search for the words.


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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3428 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2020 :  16:45:10  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

As for Ruha, I thought her characterisation was good, a young girl, outcast by her society, struggling to find acceptance, but facing rejection at every corner.
She certainly isn't a Harper in Parched Seas, although I could never be certain that Lander was a Harper either.
His father was a Harper friend, and maybe a Harper Agent and Lander may have inherited his pin but there is no mention of Lander going on any training or missions for the Harper until he was sat in the Old Skull inn and overhead Storm, elminster and a bunch of others discussing what to do about the zhents in anauroch.
I also got the feeling that this conversation was staged for him to overhear so it's likely the shadowdale harpers (who are not part of the new berdusk harpers) were testing him with his first mission.
Not that it matters. Lander was a harper by the end and if Ruha has his pin then she can join the harpers (assuming they dont think she stole it) at least that's what song of the saurials implies.


-She appears in another series very much a Harper.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34002 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2020 :  18:18:25  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

I'm afraid page count is not going to be possible.

The various formats i own have a varying page count. Elfshadow for instance has 167 pages in pdf, 588 in epub, and no pages in rtf or txt.

I've checked the paperback version and it has 320 pages and i can't find a hardback.

I guess that is the problem with using digital media, pages are mutable based upon the size of the window and the font.

If it helps, i've tried to use the same key words as they appear in the book, although sometimes i've had to paraphrase, and in some cases i've had to write my own sentences because i'm piecing together bits across multiple pages. So if you own a digital version of the book you can search for the words.





You could reference a chapter number. That would narrow it down for others.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
5279 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2020 :  18:43:41  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Excellent idea, chapters it is.

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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1141 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2020 :  19:20:58  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I actually really like Ruha in Parched Sea, a bit less so in Veiled Dragon because she somehow feels responsible for a f*** up that happens in Voolnar that she should never feel responsible for, and takes guff from people. In Parched Sea she, despite being in a male dominated society, doesn't really take guff from anyone and stands up for herself and is quite powerful and strong. But also empathetic and acts like I would act in her shoes, all in all it's some of Troy Denning's best character work. To me.

I have a lot of love for Elfsong (re-reading now) but Elfshadow despite loving most of it I've gone on at length about my issues with the ending. Will be interesting to see if you pick up the lore/consistency problems that I did . But it's still such a great book/series and Elaine is among the best.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
5279 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2020 :  20:55:42  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well thus far its all good, although there does seem to be an error in determining Arilyn's age.

The book is supposed to start in 1321 DR (according to google anyway). Arilyn in chapter 1 is 15 years old, she spends 25 years adventuring and studied 5 years at the academy of arms in Evereska, but the book describes her in chapter 3 as approaching her 40th winter. The maths say she should be 45.

Anyone know Arilyn's date of birth? It would be easier to track from that. I'll assume it was 1321 DR, in which case Chapter 1 is set 1336 DR with 5 years at the academy and only 20 years adventuring unless of course the training at the academy of arms actually includes some time spent adventuring as part of their training.

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Edited by - Gary Dallison on 17 Aug 2020 10:47:15
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ElfBane
Learned Scribe

USA
159 Posts

Posted - 17 Aug 2020 :  07:48:20  Show Profile Send ElfBane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Astonishing!!! Something in FR novels that doesn't add up!
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1141 Posts

Posted - 17 Aug 2020 :  11:20:30  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Elaine is pretty good with that sort of thing so I would just assume that part of training at the academy involves going out of Evereska and doing a bit of dungeon crawl or bandit camp destroying or some such?
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5986 Posts

Posted - 17 Aug 2020 :  18:48:11  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Well thus far its all good, although there does seem to be an error in determining Arilyn's age.

The book is supposed to start in 1321 DR (according to google anyway). Arilyn in chapter 1 is 15 years old, she spends 25 years adventuring and studied 5 years at the academy of arms in Evereska, but the book describes her in chapter 3 as approaching her 40th winter. The maths say she should be 45.

Anyone know Arilyn's date of birth? It would be easier to track from that. I'll assume it was 1321 DR, in which case Chapter 1 is set 1336 DR with 5 years at the academy and only 20 years adventuring unless of course the training at the academy of arms actually includes some time spent adventuring as part of their training.



She is born in 1322 DR. Zaor dies in 1321 DR and in Chapter 18 of "Elfshadow" when Arilyn is talking to her dad Bran about that assassination, she notes that it occurred the year before she was born. Chapter 1 is still set in 1336 DR though - that's when Amnestria dies.

-- George Krashos


"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 17 Aug 2020 18:52:39
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
5279 Posts

Posted - 17 Aug 2020 :  18:59:16  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Awesome stuff, cheers george, maybe you should release your notes on the novels as well.

So she is approaching 40, and so the 25 years spent adventuring must have overlapped with her 5 years at the academy of arms. Makes sense I suppose to have a bit of work experience while they are training.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34002 Posts

Posted - 17 Aug 2020 :  21:00:58  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Awesome stuff, cheers george, maybe you should release your notes on the novels as well.

So she is approaching 40, and so the 25 years spent adventuring must have overlapped with her 5 years at the academy of arms. Makes sense I suppose to have a bit of work experience while they are training.



The numbers could also be fudged a bit. Maybe it was 26 years adventuring, maybe 4.5 at the academy...

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Kentinal
Great Reader

4486 Posts

Posted - 17 Aug 2020 :  21:54:53  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Offers for consideration. When did schooling start?

The academy of arms might be teaching youth?

What I am thinking about is the Hogwarts school Potter went to. He started that School at age Ten.

If the academy of arms is a basic training school for selected students it might make sense as well.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
5279 Posts

Posted - 17 Aug 2020 :  22:06:01  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
She was 15 when she met jamil, he enrolled her in the academy straight after. She spent 5 years at the academy and 25 years adventuring.

That's all the detail we have, I think she only got into the academy on kymils say so.


I just came across a passage I keep seeing. The elves are part of the weave, it also said their magic was less affected by the ToT. I've seen elsewhere that the dragons are part of the weave.

Looks like at some point since their arrival on toril someone did some uber magic to make all elves part of the weave itself. I'm gonna guess it happened after the descent of the drow, because they do not use magic the same way as the elves.

Only on page 49 and there is a ton of lore on waterdeep, evereska, evermeet, harpers. I never knew that Harper Agents were not actually harpers (just people used by harpers for specific mission types).


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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1141 Posts

Posted - 17 Aug 2020 :  22:21:33  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't really understand the difference between harpers and harper agents, because the series the Harpers seems to involve way more harper agents than harpers and half the people with harper pins don't seem to know who they work for or why they are doing what they do, and are usually successful only because of "agents". Also who is giving Kymil his orders the whole time? The Berdusk Harpers? He's an agent and Arilyn is his agent? It's all very convoluded and remains so at the end of the book. I wish she had actually written the Harper tribunal so we could compare it to the one in Song of the Saurials. Detect Truth/Lie spells and rings are such a problem for writers when they have court systems.
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ElfBane
Learned Scribe

USA
159 Posts

Posted - 17 Aug 2020 :  23:15:02  Show Profile Send ElfBane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

I don't really understand the difference between harpers and harper agents, because the series the Harpers seems to involve way more harper agents than harpers and half the people with harper pins don't seem to know who they work for or why they are doing what they do, and are usually successful only because of "agents". Also who is giving Kymil his orders the whole time? The Berdusk Harpers? He's an agent and Arilyn is his agent? It's all very convoluded and remains so at the end of the book. I wish she had actually written the Harper tribunal so we could compare it to the one in Song of the Saurials. Detect Truth/Lie spells and rings are such a problem for writers when they have court systems.



I totally agree. It's very convoluted. I guess that's the way spy networks operate, the Onion principle. You rarely know who's the local Boss. You only know enough people at your level to barely get the job done. And you may not know anyone at the level below you. I guess it makes infiltration difficult. It sure as hell makes book plots challenging.
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