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Cosmar
Seeker
88 Posts |
 Posted - 06 May 2020 : 19:39:32
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Do you think it's possible to have an effective villain who is not a spellcaster? (At least not a full caster--druid, cleric, wizard). I can't really see a way that a non-spellcaster can make a truly effective villain, at least not without a powerful spellcasting henchman. I mean mechanically wise, not storywise. Against a savvy, well-rounded party, what chance does a non-caster have to effectively counter them? Also, spellcasting villains are so much easier to run since they can use their magic to spy on the party and generally know what's going on and be prepared for what will happen.
Have any of you had success with non-casting villains? What was the scenario like and how did you make it work?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2020 : 20:12:13
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I don't see that a BBEG needs to be a spellcaster. A warlord with an army, the head of a thieves' guild, a powerful nobleman... Any of them could be BBEGs. It doesn't take spells, just having the right people -- and/or a lot of cannon fodder -- to support you.
I'd like to try a moderately powerful evil bard, as a BBEG, myself. Max out his Charisma and he could have good people supporting him, not knowing he was actually a bad guy. With that high charisma, he could simply talk people into doing things for him... And he'd likely be able to dig up dirt on other folks, and get their support that way. Plus, as a bard, he could make the PCs look bad any number of ways. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2020 : 21:42:56
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Well I ran a Lord that was considered evil. He was a Fighter, however had subjects. Many tried to kill him, they never succeeded. In the end was forced to retire by his son.
However not sure you would want something like that. His basic success relied on blood right leadership. Paying troops and spies well. Also some leveraged trade agreements with neighbors 9tribute).
His power was in loyalty he received and the effective use of wealth. He also became a little paranoid after first assassination attempt. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2020 : 21:53:18
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I'm gonna share a secret inspired by a friend of mine's homebrew.
Make a new mechanic (a secret technique, if you will) that expends Hit Dice for power. It's a risk-reward system that uses a resource that the party (and moreso the monsters) rarely use to any novel extent. Have a martial bad-guy who seems to get powers like free critical hits, legendary resistances, or anime hulk-out flavorful displays of strength or resilience as a result of expending some or all of their body's reserve strength. If you can survive this onslaught and then follow the creature to its lair, they won't be able to heal up very well between fights.
I love ideas like this because the party can go "what the hell did he do to beat us so badly?" and then can make an effort to learn that trick for themselves. In giving your party such a powerful tool, they may very well kill themselves by running out of hit dice on a strenuous wilderness adventure and meet a humiliating death. (Gotta remember you only get half of your hit dice back on a long rest!)
@Patt |
:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:
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Edited by - PattPlays on 06 May 2020 21:53:36 |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2020 : 08:46:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Cosmar
Do you think it's possible to have an effective villain who is not a spellcaster? (At least not a full caster--druid, cleric, wizard). I can't really see a way that a non-spellcaster can make a truly effective villain, at least not without a powerful spellcasting henchman. I mean mechanically wise, not storywise. Against a savvy, well-rounded party, what chance does a non-caster have to effectively counter them? Also, spellcasting villains are so much easier to run since they can use their magic to spy on the party and generally know what's going on and be prepared for what will happen.
Have any of you had success with non-casting villains? What was the scenario like and how did you make it work?
Um... is it a requirement that the only way the players deal with a BBEG is on the playmat? The reason I ask is because the most heinous villains that my players have ever wanted to squash were ones that they wouldn't strike down.
EXAMPLE: The gregarious elderly dwarf merchant well known on the Trade Way between Daggerford & Baldurs Gate who uses his profits to support several orphanages & sponsor down on their luck adventurers to safeguard poor migrants on that road, but unbeknownst to the public he is the mastermind of a slavery ring. Even though I gave my players several chances to strike down this elderly NPC who has no martial skills, they did not dare because they never could find proof of his wrongdoing & knew that slaying the dwarf would earn the outrage of an entire region demanding their heads. This dwarf is of unimpeachable character to all with references from the Lords' Alliance to the Lands of Intrigue and hundreds who would vouch for his charitable deeds from elders, to church leaders, to various civil peace officers. I won't bore you with the details, but the dwarf had many mundane means to thwart & falsify divinations (I loved the looks on my player's faces when a magistrate's Zone of Truth showed the dwarf to be speaking the truth while indicating the PCs were lying only on their accusations of wrong doing by the dwarf or those associating with him). The dwarf wasn't bulletproof and there were ways to prove his guilt, but my players easily fell for diversions & dupes that they could beat into submission as opposed to really doing an investigation to acquire incriminating evidence. Originally created in 2e, he got revamped in 3e & 3.5 with targeted focus in social skills, leadership, & non-evil evil introduced by Champions of Ruin so that he was the most endearing provider for orphans & the hardworking poor while callously enslaving ne'er-do-wells, bums, & layabout socialites to fund his charitable endeavors.
Players build strong-on-the-playmat PCs. Successful villains hit their opponents where they are weakest. Through both theory & practice, my most successful (& fun to play) BBEGs never ended up as combatants on the playmat - slain by a successfully turned henchman, arrested by the authorities, or fleeing with the promise to return more powerful than ever, yes, but never being in a violent confrontation with the PCs to be defeated. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2020 : 10:29:32
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| Non-spellcasters can use other counters with impunity, like using dead/wild zones. Or witchweed. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Archmage of Nowhere
Seeker
USA
64 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2020 : 18:00:15
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On a pure mechanical level a Non-spellcaster can absolutely challenge a party, but not without equipment. If we are talking about running a combat with the party were a lone or lightly supported warrior stands against several spellcasters and near same level warriors, they cannot do that without proper equipment. A great warrior BBEG doesn’t need to know about the party to be prepared for them, his battle-gear is designed, by that character, to ensure they are prepared for near any combat scenario.
I would like to preface the below comment with the statement that this is for a High-magic setting (Realms obviously) and the below solution reflects being in a high-magic setting were magic items are plentiful. If you are looking to have a BBEG that is more akin to Conan (pure martial ability, innate strength, and restricted magic item usage) then you will need to set up some narrative ideas that are not in the book per-se. It is best to be aware that you basically pitting two different types of fantasy archetypes against each other, not impossible just requires some narrative massaging.
One of the first concerns you might have while doing this is gearing out the villain without just handing those items straight to the party right away after the villain falls. Alignment equipment, sentient weapons, powerful-cursed accessories will be your friend here and could add to ongoing narrative.
This will also help reinforce the idea that the warlord had great stores resources and perhaps even greater willpower depending on what you choose.
The most successful warrior BBEG I put in was a drow warlord. She sought to unite/subjugate the various city-states of the Underdark; connect those cities with portals; and eventually marshal their combined forces towards enemies all over the Underdark.
She had items to combat beholders, illithid, and duergar forces as well as powerful drow clerics.
Although the itemization fit narratively it also covered a few important concepts to challenge a high level party with a both dedicated and hybrid casters.
What you choose to cover these concepts will be highly dependent on your group make-up, I tried to use the lowest form of magic I could find that was maximally effect against my group.
1. Gap closing - dimension door, fly, haste whatever floats your boat here. I went about getting something that was effective against my group in any scenario (just in case they found a way to fight her on their terms), then made the villain’s 'lair' something advantageous to her chosen mode of mobility. For her it was both Fly & 2/day Dimension Door
2. Willpower & Reflex - based saves this again can be anything, I simply chose an immunity to charm or mind-affecting spells or spell-like abilities & Reflex ring. Her constant contention with illithid was the primary reason for the immunity.
3. Hesitation mechanic - This is the least obvious of the items I think. It’s a turn based game, getting the spellcasters to hesitate and not do the most powerful action they can, that turn for fear of it having no effect, is very powerful. Extends the fight, adds tension and myriad of good things for the scenario. I chose a belt version of Rod of Absorption (minor) but I considered a shield of spell-turning, invisibility, poisoned weapons, wand of hold person and more all come to mind, several different paths you can take here.
You will still run into problems regarding spells without saves, or less direct nonsense (glibness *shudders*) but on the whole these totally out of whack, powerful spells are limited and predictable. Simply be aware of exactly what spells your party knows and can prepare to see if they are even a concern.
What’s important to remember is you can get away with not covering all of these depending on your party's level and make-up (I was running for a pretty high level group). Mobility is most important but it might be as simple as having Boots of Haste and Willpower/Reflex rings. But really the villain needs to have equipment that would make them effective at accomplishing their narrative goal & pressure the spell-casters. That pressure is important, don’t just settle for saves and tanking their spells.
This is the BBEG, get that villain in their face and remind them that there is actually nothing scarier than a warrior in reach of them.
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Edited by - Archmage of Nowhere on 08 May 2020 18:05:48 |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2020 : 19:13:30
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Also, I find that the 'big unstoppable wall of muscle' is paired excellently with a 'witchy underhanded expert in subterfuge who gives them artifacts of power and weakens the landscale for the martial champion's arrival.
If that doesn't work, just slap an antimagic field on the meathead.
Also, take a lesson from giant-kin. Up their size category, damage dice, and reach and make it harder to flank them.
And also- I have to ask the question:
Why are your heroes fighting your BBEG alone??? Your BBEG should have swarms upon swarms upon legions upon legions of minions to get in the way. A martial bbeg would NEVER EVER EVER let a spellcaster come within 300 feet of them without being peppered by poisoned sleep arrows. Come on!
@Patt |
:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:
https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2020 : 20:33:44
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quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
Why are your heroes fighting your BBEG alone??? Your BBEG should have swarms upon swarms upon legions upon legions of minions to get in the way. A martial bbeg would NEVER EVER EVER let a spellcaster come within 300 feet of them without being peppered by poisoned sleep arrows. Come on!
@Patt
Agreed. Even a mid-level fighter could be scary if the party is worn down by running the gauntlet of Tucker's kobolds, before getting to the BBEG.
(Now that I think about it, I think that Tucker's kobolds were likely the inspiration for the Dragon Mountain boxed set.) |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 09 May 2020 01:10:14 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4427 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2020 : 19:41:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Cosmar
Do you think it's possible to have an effective villain who is not a spellcaster? (At least not a full caster--druid, cleric, wizard). I can't really see a way that a non-spellcaster can make a truly effective villain, at least not without a powerful spellcasting henchman. I mean mechanically wise, not storywise. Against a savvy, well-rounded party, what chance does a non-caster have to effectively counter them? Also, spellcasting villains are so much easier to run since they can use their magic to spy on the party and generally know what's going on and be prepared for what will happen.
Have any of you had success with non-casting villains? What was the scenario like and how did you make it work?
This really depends on the Edition of D&D used. I'm not well versed in the TSR-days of D&D, so pre-3e I really haven't a good clue if armored warriors were a considerable threat to a whole party? But I'll do my best in terms of later editions of the game:
3e/PF: - You can have a non-magic BBEG, but there's going to be some huge hurdles, and it only gets worse the later on in levels you are. For starters the biggest problem is the greatest of all economy in 3e - Action Economy - and unfortunately 3e did it's very best to limit weapon-based characters / NPCs / Villians / and Monsters in this capacity. Make a weapon-based BBEG move more than 5' and he loses ALL his attacks, save one. Knock him on the ground and he loses his move action AND provokes Opportunity Attacks AND he can't make full-round attacks. It's very....one sided.
Likely the best way to make a non-magical BBEG worth his salt in 3.5 is to give him ways around the action economy. I like the Barbarian's alternate class feature that lets you get Pounce instead of fast movement. I like big charging attacks that ignore penalties to Power Attack like the Shock Trooper feat or giving them a magical item like the Heart Seeker Amulet (attacks are touch attacks). I also like to grab maneuvers from the Tome of Battle: Book of 9 Swords that ignore the action economy like Wolf Fang strike.
Second, give the BBEG items that help reduce attacks (potions of Blur or greater invisibility) or have a minion spellcaster that uses a prayer like entropic shield. Give them decent weapons and armor (use the Wealth-by-Level for NPCs chart) so they have some gusto!
Finally, have an exit plan based on their motivations. Potions of gaseous form work well as a get out of Dodge escape. So does potions of Expeditious Retreat and fly.
4E: Make them a solo monster/NPC, done! Seriously, this edition built in concepts such as factoring in action economy and Solo monsters are designed to be effective at taking on 4-6 players of equal level (+/- 2 levels). This goes for spellcasters, melee brutes, fancy foot-working fencers, and archers. I once made a pirate bad-guy who was a Solo monster. He had a single-shot pistol, rapier, and a few bombs on his bandoleer. He was a hoot to role-play and have the PCs fight against. His "bombs" were area affects that froze or immolated areas of the ship (which was hilarious seeing them worry about it taking on water), a big-damaging "gun", and he was a master swordsman too, so he parried a lot of attacks and gave them a good run for their money. Finally, when his crew was nearly depleted he was about to quaff a potion of fly when our eladrin female wizard got mad and bull rushed him off the deck and into the drink. I botched the saving throw big-time and he ended up getting eaten by sharks, lol. Great times!
5E: This one is a bit harder to determine. I still don't understand it's Challenge Rating system, as it doesn't equate well to 3e's Level = CR concept NOR does it handle the Hit Die = Challenge well either (a "fighter" with 22 HD and 3 attacks is till only a CR 9). My role of thumb is that because the action economy is more loose, you can have a BBEG have two or three attacks and he'll be difficult, especially with a higher AC (19+) and to use the DMG's guidelines on making your own monsters. There's a ratio there for what PCs should have (there-abouts) in terms of attack mods to the challenge of the creature. For example, just this past friday we were taking on a Champion (CR 9, AC 18, three attacks) and we're level 7 and he's exceptionally hard to fight. I need a 11+ to hit the guy and that's basically where everyone else is too. He might be a CR 8 or 9. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2020 : 00:15:20
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The "leader" of a major cell of the Cult of the Dragon was/is(?) Naergoth Bladelord; he was level 20+ back in 1358. Him and Salvarad (a level 20 Priest) had the highest specs going for evil characters back then outside of Halastar or the likes. Pretty sure if a Dragon cult leader can be a non-spellcaster he qualifies as a BBEG.
And yes, in my campaigns, I often had non-spellcaster main bad guys, although they all would usually have a mage side kick.
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Edited by - Seravin on 10 May 2020 00:16:18 |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2020 : 02:50:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Cosmar
Do you think it's possible to have an effective villain who is not a spellcaster? (At least not a full caster--druid, cleric, wizard). I can't really see a way that a non-spellcaster can make a truly effective villain, at least not without a powerful spellcasting henchman. I mean mechanically wise, not storywise. Against a savvy, well-rounded party, what chance does a non-caster have to effectively counter them? Also, spellcasting villains are so much easier to run since they can use their magic to spy on the party and generally know what's going on and be prepared for what will happen.
Have any of you had success with non-casting villains? What was the scenario like and how did you make it work?
This really depends on the Edition of D&D used.
5E: This one is a bit harder to determine. I still don't understand it's Challenge Rating system, as it doesn't equate well to 3e's Level = CR concept NOR does it handle the Hit Die = Challenge well either (a "fighter" with 22 HD and 3 attacks is till only a CR 9). My role of thumb is that because the action economy is more loose, you can have a BBEG have two or three attacks and he'll be difficult, especially with a higher AC (19+) and to use the DMG's guidelines on making your own monsters. There's a ratio there for what PCs should have (there-abouts) in terms of attack mods to the challenge of the creature. For example, just this past friday we were taking on a Champion (CR 9, AC 18, three attacks) and we're level 7 and he's exceptionally hard to fight. I need a 11+ to hit the guy and that's basically where everyone else is too. He might be a CR 8 or 9.
This I can help with, as well as having the opportunity to complain about Polymorph.
In 5e, and this is a rough estimate that falls apart with special abilities, but a party of 4 lvl 1 characters should be able to take on a CR 1 monster alone and handle themselves pretty well. Still, as I said you gotta take into account powers and capabilities. An Ogre can one-shot overkill a level one wizard in such an encounter. A part of 4 level 5 characters should equally be threatened by, but nonetheless be able to overcome with limited resource tax, a CR 5 monster.
Thus, when Polymorph says "a beast of CR = your level" it should really say a CR of one half of your level, as you contribute one fourth of the fighting against that CR 1, making you a CR 1/4th. Level one characters are goblins. Level four characters are CR 1. This should scale easily with caster levels on monsters in 5e too. |
:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:
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BBEG's who aren't spellcasters
