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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 21 Apr 2020 :  14:51:10  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

If I may continue the Jander Sunstar tangent, how in the Nine Hells (pun intentional) did Jander leave the Demiplane of Dread in the first place?


In Canon, the ending of Vampire of the Mists is left vague and from what I remember, he somehow does survive the final moments of the book. Theory goes he was pulled from the demiplane before Ravenlofts sun destroyed him. Also, magic? We're talking about worlds where they teem with magic and mystery.


I've not read the book in many years, but as I recall, it ends with him awaiting the sun -- the issue of his survival was not addressed.

Personally, given both his experiences and the nature of Ravenloft, I'd say that his destruction at that point was the best possible outcome.

As for him somehow getting pulled out of Ravenloft, I'm not familiar with that one. I do know, though, that at least in 2E, escape from Ravenloft was nearly impossible.

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

Yeah, I don't get why they used him here? Especially for none other than just a small reference and finalization of a long standing character? It does seem like they knew he was a name that would tie this into the Realms (however outlandishly) and that was somehow good?

I feel he deserved better



I very much agree with this.

If I was tasked with reusing Jander, I'd've had him destroyed by the sun in Ravenloft -- but then reincarnated in the Realms, by Lathander. Under no circumstances would I keep him as a vampire.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 21 Apr 2020 :  14:57:45  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

Thanks to Diffan for addressing my questions. I assumed Jander would hunt vampires in Faerun, not the Nine Hells. He indeed certainly deserved better.



As I recall, Jander's experience as a vampire hunter was mostly just being in the wrong place at the wrong time -- he was in Merrydale when a vampire infestation broke out.

However, given his experiences in Ravenloft, if he was somehow to return to life, I do see him becoming a vampire hunter at that point. He would feel he had a lot to atone for, and that his experiences would give him an advantage.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 21 Apr 2020 :  15:07:10  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I just saw this on the FR wiki:

"After spending years filled with shame and agony for his decision, Jander once again decided to end his existence by facing the sun, pleading for Lathander's mercy. However, he was again denied release and was instead condemned to become a prisoner back in Avernus, there to be held captive by Haruman, one of only two generals who had never left Zariel's side and had been later turned into a narzugon. Jander was crucified and impaled on an iron tree at Haruman's Hill, while his body was kept functioning by the work of stirges that injected him with the blood of other companions who had met the same fate."

So, a loyal follower of the god of redemption and second chances, who'd been screwed over for centuries, asks his god for mercy, and his god tells him to go to Hell -- and then sends him there. Yeah, this makes sense.

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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4425 Posts

Posted - 21 Apr 2020 :  15:26:22  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


I've not read the book in many years, but as I recall, it ends with him awaiting the sun -- the issue of his survival was not addressed.

Personally, given both his experiences and the nature of Ravenloft, I'd say that his destruction at that point was the best possible outcome.

As for him somehow getting pulled out of Ravenloft, I'm not familiar with that one. I do know, though, that at least in 2E, escape from Ravenloft was nearly impossible.


Reealms Wiki notes that in the Villains Lorebook that it 's possible the Mists of Ravenloft themselves blocked out the Sun's rays - saving Jander and teleported him to a place known as the Forlorn. I'm not familiar with this domain or what transpired there but safe to say that he ended up back on Toril in time for the Ride of Zariel in 1354 DR. Well, that's the canon anyways. I do agree that either killing him on Ravenloft would've been better than him somehow being frightened by the "terrors" of the Nine Hells made him abandon his company and lock them away in Avernus. I know that's what happened, I Just don't see Jander being a part of that.

Also, reading the adventure, it seems that after years of personal torment he pleaded with Lathander to save him and threw himself in front of the Sun but was spurned and sent to the Nine Hells instead. This poses a couple of issues for me: 1) Does this mean that his corporeal form was destroyed and that his soul was rejected by Lathander and sent to Avernus? 2) If so, doesn't Kelemvor have any say here? 3) The Wall of the Faithless is for people who are unclaimed by a patron deity, but what about those rejected? Does Lath have the power to banish people He deemed unworthy?

The more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to either resurrect Jander after you "free" him from Avernus. You stuff his ashes in a sack and bring it back to Toril then resurrect him. He becomes a fully fledged living Gold Elf (Fighter) again.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

Yeah, I don't get why they used him here? Especially for none other than just a small reference and finalization of a long standing character? It does seem like they knew he was a name that would tie this into the Realms (however outlandishly) and that was somehow good?

I feel he deserved better



I very much agree with this.

If I was tasked with reusing Jander, I'd've had him destroyed by the sun in Ravenloft -- but then reincarnated in the Realms, by Lathander. Under no circumstances would I keep him as a vampire.



That's a good point. I just don't see Lathander portrayed as the kind of deity (all about renewal, rejuvenation, rebirth, etc) condemning a guy who's legitimately sorry for his actions - actions some of which were completely out of his control no doubt.

Also, Jander is a freaking vampire that could absolutely do well on the Plane of Avernus - especially with a nearly unlimited supply of food in the form of Demons (and he wouldn't even feel bad about killing them because....well DEMONS!). So him fearing for his unlife and trekking back to Toril and leaving everyone high and dry just doesn't add up.
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
883 Posts

Posted - 21 Apr 2020 :  16:40:50  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Back to the main topic about the poll. We like star elf bladesingers and Jander Sunstar.

How about we put this in 4e terms? Eladrin vampire multiclass swordmage/fighter.

My apologies to the Candlekeep community for taking the thread off track.
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4425 Posts

Posted - 21 Apr 2020 :  17:56:51  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

Back to the main topic about the poll. We like star elf bladesingers and Jander Sunstar.

How about we put this in 4e terms? Eladrin vampire multiclass swordmage/fighter.


Oohhh, now your speaking my lingo!! One of the things I really liked about 4E was how many different ways you could approach the concept. In this case, you can go a lot of different routes. Jander was a Sun Elf (thus an Eladrin in 4E). Vampirism can take many forms in this edition: the first is to tag on the Vampire Lord template from the DMG. This is mostly for just monsters though, but I've seen elements can just be given to the Player's character. The second is the Vampire class. It's...not written terribly well I'm afraid and suffers from a few aspects like making attacks from two separate ability scores. Good thing is that Eladrin get +2 to Cha, which is one of the two needed. So Eladrin Vampire is certainly easy to achieve.

Third (and my favorite) is the Vampire Heritage feats. This is made for people who want to have some vampire qualities BUT not all the terrible drawbacks.

So I'd say Eladrin Bladesinger (because it's a full 30 level class in 4E) with the Vampiric Heritage feat. Conversely you could do Eladrin Bladesinger (multiclass Vampire) and get roughly the same thing.

Man, now I wish the online character builder was still a thing to make this one up. Old-school free hand it is!

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 21 Apr 2020 :  18:37:32  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

Back to the main topic about the poll. We like star elf bladesingers and Jander Sunstar.

How about we put this in 4e terms? Eladrin vampire multiclass swordmage/fighter.


Oohhh, now your speaking my lingo!! One of the things I really liked about 4E was how many different ways you could approach the concept. In this case, you can go a lot of different routes. Jander was a Sun Elf (thus an Eladrin in 4E). Vampirism can take many forms in this edition: the first is to tag on the Vampire Lord template from the DMG. This is mostly for just monsters though, but I've seen elements can just be given to the Player's character. The second is the Vampire class. It's...not written terribly well I'm afraid and suffers from a few aspects like making attacks from two separate ability scores. Good thing is that Eladrin get +2 to Cha, which is one of the two needed. So Eladrin Vampire is certainly easy to achieve.

Third (and my favorite) is the Vampire Heritage feats. This is made for people who want to have some vampire qualities BUT not all the terrible drawbacks.

So I'd say Eladrin Bladesinger (because it's a full 30 level class in 4E) with the Vampiric Heritage feat. Conversely you could do Eladrin Bladesinger (multiclass Vampire) and get roughly the same thing.

Man, now I wish the online character builder was still a thing to make this one up. Old-school free hand it is!





One of the things Ravenloft had, in 2E, was different vampires based on the original race. So a human vampire, an elven vampire, and a dwarven vampire would all be different.

Has this been done in any other edition?

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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
883 Posts

Posted - 21 Apr 2020 :  18:37:56  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

Back to the main topic about the poll. We like star elf bladesingers and Jander Sunstar.

How about we put this in 4e terms? Eladrin vampire multiclass swordmage/fighter.


Oohhh, now your speaking my lingo!! One of the things I really liked about 4E was how many different ways you could approach the concept. In this case, you can go a lot of different routes. Jander was a Sun Elf (thus an Eladrin in 4E). Vampirism can take many forms in this edition: the first is to tag on the Vampire Lord template from the DMG. This is mostly for just monsters though, but I've seen elements can just be given to the Player's character. The second is the Vampire class. It's...not written terribly well I'm afraid and suffers from a few aspects like making attacks from two separate ability scores. Good thing is that Eladrin get +2 to Cha, which is one of the two needed. So Eladrin Vampire is certainly easy to achieve.

Third (and my favorite) is the Vampire Heritage feats. This is made for people who want to have some vampire qualities BUT not all the terrible drawbacks.

So I'd say Eladrin Bladesinger (because it's a full 30 level class in 4E) with the Vampiric Heritage feat. Conversely you could do Eladrin Bladesinger (multiclass Vampire) and get roughly the same thing.

Man, now I wish the online character builder was still a thing to make this one up. Old-school free hand it is!





I'll just need to repurchase more of my old 4e books and I will take my own stab at an eladrin vampire bladesinger. I'll PM my draft when it is done.
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4425 Posts

Posted - 21 Apr 2020 :  20:13:24  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert



One of the things Ravenloft had, in 2E, was different vampires based on the original race. So a human vampire, an elven vampire, and a dwarven vampire would all be different.

Has this been done in any other edition?



Um, not to my knowledge though I don't see why it couldn't be added in. If I remember correctly, elven vampires couldn't physically touch fauna flora or else they instantly die or maybe that was Jander's curse specifically?

Edited by - Diffan on 21 Apr 2020 23:11:13
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 21 Apr 2020 :  20:37:07  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert



One of the things Ravenloft had, in 2E, was different vampires based on the original race. So a human vampire, an elven vampire, and a dwarven vampire would all be different.

Has this been done in any other edition?



Um, not to my knowledge though I don't see why it couldn't be added in. If I remember correctly, elven vampires couldn't physically touch fauna or else they instantly die or maybe that was Jander's curse specifically?



It's been a while since I read that particular MC, but I believe you are correct (except it was flora, not fauna). I seem to recall when reading it that I thought they had gotten the idea from Jander.

I don't recall the specifics for any of the others... Many, many moons have passed since I've had cause to pay any attention to Ravenloft.

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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
883 Posts

Posted - 21 Apr 2020 :  21:22:54  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert



One of the things Ravenloft had, in 2E, was different vampires based on the original race. So a human vampire, an elven vampire, and a dwarven vampire would all be different.

Has this been done in any other edition?



Um, not to my knowledge though I don't see why it couldn't be added in. If I remember correctly, elven vampires couldn't physically touch fauna or else they instantly die or maybe that was Jander's curse specifically?


Yes it was. That is why Jander wore gloves.
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Stones Finder
Acolyte

Canada
30 Posts

Posted - 22 Apr 2020 :  05:28:45  Show Profile Send Stones Finder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As I recall, Vampire of the Mists was intended to end in Jander's destruction, but Children Of the Night: Vampires (late 2E) revealed that the Dark Powers had saved him, and he was still hunting other vampires in Ravenloft. The 3E Arthaus Ravenloft book Champions of Darkness had updated statistics for the character, but they were badly botched, like everything else in that book, and I think the canon status of Arthaus Ravenloft is still up in the air.

Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it - Advice for the 5e design team
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore

1078 Posts

Posted - 28 Apr 2020 :  02:08:18  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Stones Finder

As I recall, Vampire of the Mists was intended to end in Jander's destruction, but Children Of the Night: Vampires (late 2E) revealed that the Dark Powers had saved him, and he was still hunting other vampires in Ravenloft. The 3E Arthaus Ravenloft book Champions of Darkness had updated statistics for the character, but they were badly botched, like everything else in that book, and I think the canon status of Arthaus Ravenloft is still up in the air.



That's where I'm at. lol. same books, same lore.
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1842 Posts

Posted - 29 Apr 2020 :  18:21:14  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Fey''ri Warlock because why not

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore

1078 Posts

Posted - 01 May 2020 :  19:38:48  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

Fey''ri Warlock because why not



Well, it is a powerful combo imo.
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