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Originally posted by LordofBones

Lathander and the Vedic deity Ushas share the same realm of Morning Glory. Auril and Loki share Winter's Hall. Velsharoon and Mellifkeur share Death's Embrace. Tyche is the Greek deity of the same name. Tyr is an interloper deity; he hails from the Norse pantheon. Waukeen shares the Marketplace Eternal with the Krynnish Shinare, the Oeridian Zilchus and the Cerilian Sera. Wee Jas and Mystra 1 were BFFs.

Novelwise, Iyachtu Xvim impersonated Shinare and Paladine and Finder put a stop to it.

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Originally posted by Delnyn

How silly of me to forget. The Mulhorandi and Untheric pantheons explicitly came from another crystal sphere. The ancient Imaskari wizards blocked the deities from coming to Realmspace. Ao contacted their spokesgod Ptah, who in trun relayed Ao's message to both pantheons. Although the gods could not go in their true form, they could build avatars called manifestations that could breach the Imaskari barrier.

In 2nd edition, Waukeen cut a deal with Celestian of the Greyhawk pantheon to discreetly get her out of Realmsspace. She took a detour through the Abyss, where Graz'zt double-crossed her.

Talona had a run-in with Kipputytto, also from the Finnish pantheon, as to who could spread disease the fastest. Talona outcompeted her rival and drove her off.

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Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red

Ao does have power across the multiverse. During the Time of Troubles Ao grabbed every deity with a presence in the Realms and tossed them down into Realmspace. It would seem part of the agreement for a deity to enter Realmspace is that they give Ao power over them.

The inner and outer planes don't touch every place in any Crystal Sphere. Not even close.

A deity can only have power in a crystal sphere that they have worshipers...generally a LOT of them.

Interference in the system is prohibited...lightly. The much bigger risk/control/stop measure is the fact that if a God extends themselves into a new Crystal Sphere they are vulnerable. Other gods, even more so the powerful gods in that sphere, can over power them, hurt them, hummulate them and such.

You can read all the books, sure. Most are self contained to each setting. There are the Spelljammer Cloakmaster books that go to the Big Three Spheres. The Lost God books also crossover the Big Three Spheres (AND has gods of different spheres meeting and working for/against each other.

The only other known Ao like being is the High God from Dragonlance.

Lots of Realms characters interact across the crystal spheres and planes. It's a huge list.

For the most part souls..aka Petitioners..stay in the Realm of their deity. That being said, lots of deities do share spots and locations...so mixing does happen.

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Originally posted by Ayrik

Other entities have been suggested as "overgods", at least within their domains. In addition to Ao (of the Realms) and the High God (of Krynn), I might include the Lady of Pain (in Sigil), Anubis (across the Astral), the Ouroboros World Serpent (Jazirian and Asmodeus), Primus (the First Modron), Ptah (because he can functionally exist "everywhere" simultaneously), and perhaps the "racial" archetype gods (like Corellon, Moradin, Gruumsh, Bahamut, Tiamat, maybe Lloth/Lolth). And 4E's Spellplague also implies Mystra has (or had) cosmos-spanning overgod stature.

But Candlekeep's scribes have presented compelling arguments which sometimes exclude these entities or sometimes include others.

Deities have no power where there is no mortal belief to sustain them. Spelljammer offered rules about priests travelling the Phlogiston and the Flow and Wildspace and the Spheres, what "foreign" power they might or might not have away from their gods, what they might need to do to establish or expand a divine influence.

I think the short explanation is the simplest:
Crystal spheres are barriers which mortals find difficult to traverse. But no mortal believers to carry the gods to new spheres means no gods can manifest in those spheres.
Crystal spheres do little to impede the movements of gods. But without their mortals they cannot observe or influence or manifest (much), at least not without attracting the cooperation (or ire) of "local" counterpart gods on whom their powers trespass.
Crystal spheres do nothing to impede an overgod. They're basically just property markers. Your neighbour's little white picket fence can't seriously stop you from trespassing on his land, but you still wouldn't cross it uninvited for many other reasons.

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Originally posted by Ayrik

We don't know much about Ao.

In 2E we only saw Ao act in the Avatar trilogy. Everything else was speculation (conjecture by mortals in the Realms, vague and generic suggestions for DMs in the game) based on those actions, Ao never bothered to communicate or demonstrate anything to confirm/deny these speculations.

The gods of the Realms could not contact or summon (or univite) Ao. Ao simply appeared before them when Ao desired, Ao simply vanished from their presence when Ao desired, Ao already knew about all their activities (and hidden-activities) during his absence. So evidently wherever Ao came and went was a place beyond the reach or knowledge of gods/goddesses in his Realms.

Some passages in the novels described Ao's communications with his "peer" or "peers" or "boss". The context seemed to imply a group (perhaps even a very large group), and the terse "reports" given by Ao (along with the "instructions" or "orders" given to him) seemed to imply that Ao was subordinate to some higher entity/entities.
The text was deliberately nondescriptive, but it seems like these meetings occurred somewhere "beyond" the established worlds and planes of D&D. (Spelljammer products and crystal spheres weren't around yet.)

If overgods can come and go as they please, can interact in some "common" place (here, there, wherever, all beyond the scope of mere gods and goddesses), they surely aren't impeded by a little phlog on their boots.

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Originally posted by Shawn DanielsSweet mother of Oghma, THANK YOU! Would you be willing to expound upon that list, or provide a link to any relevant resource?

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Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red


The two Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk and Dragonlance cross over lines of novles: The Cloakmaster Cycle(Spelljammer) and the Lost Gods(Planescape).

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

So... As I see it, the Prime Material Plane, like many other planes, has multiple layers. Each layer is its own crystal sphere.

This, to me, is the easiest way to explain how things can function differently from one campaign world to another, even though they're both on the Prime.

All the other planes don't just touch one layer of this multi-layer Prime, they touch all of them. Thus, each Prime has the same planar structure.

Ao rules the layer of the Prime that is Realmspace. He has total control over it. Any deity wants access to Realmspace, they have to go through him. And part of that access is what allows him to have some control over them in their planar realms.

Nothing limits Ao to being able to reach out further... But as an overdeity, he's something beyond regular deities. He doesn't see a need to be active beyond Realmspace, because he's omnipotent, there. It may even be a required aspect of overgodhood: supreme influence over their section of the Prime and none elsewhere.

In fact, I think that overdeities are former regular deities that got promoted. Maybe each overdeity was once limited to just being part of a pantheon, one among many, and over time, became much more powerful than their peers. At that point, they're tapped by whoever is over the overdeities (omnideities? uberdeities?) and given a new, proto-layer of the Prime as their own. They then shape it as they will, and either create their own powers, or allow some outside powers in, or both.

As for the phlogiston, it's like hyperspace: it's that null area that exists between layers of the Prime. It may even be between all layers of all planes, but it's only the Primes that can be perceived from there -- or the magic to reach the other layers is unknown.

Keep in mind that none of this is canon. It's just the best way I see to explain everything. The fact that different settings have different rules is really problematic, unless you go with the different layers, thinks I. Otherwise, you've got to explain how smoke powder (for example) follows one set of rules on one section of the Prime but a different set of rules on another...

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Originally posted by Ayrik

The Phlogiston shares some properties with the Astral. Spelljammer's Gith Pirates are able to "planeshift" their entite vessels into and through the Astral. So I think they're linked, or maybe Phlog "surrounds" the interface between Prime and Astral much like Ethereal surrounds each Prime.

Spelljammer put much effort into distinguishing itself as something separate from planar travels, while Planescape (and all subsequent D&D) basically pretended Spelljammer didn't exist. So precise canon about the finer mechanisms was never given (and likely never will be), all we have is fanon (many fanons) with varying balances of consistency vs creativity.

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Originally posted by Ayrik

The Phlogiston shares some properties with the Astral. Spelljammer's Gith Pirates are able to "planeshift" their entite vessels into and through the Astral. So I think they're linked, or maybe Phlog "surrounds" the interface between Prime and Astral much like Ethereal surrounds each Prime.

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Originally posted by Ayrik

Spelljammer put much effort into distinguishing itself as something separate from planar travels, while Planescape (and all subsequent D&D) basically pretended Spelljammer didn't exist. So precise canon about the finer mechanisms was never given (and likely never will be), all we have is fanon (many fanons) with varying balances of consistency vs creativity.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

So... As I see it, the Prime Material Plane, like many other planes, has multiple layers. Each layer is its own crystal sphere.

This, to me, is the easiest way to explain how things can function differently from one campaign world to another, even though they're both on the Prime.

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Originally posted by Ayrik

Giths can only planeshift in Wildspace, not Phlog? That suggests Phlog roughly resembles Asttal but is otherwise unrelated.
(Yes, elven-organic ships and other conditions. But if it's possible then it's not impossible.)

The Astral is described as a plane which shouldn't really exist. Something like a "backstage" or "backdoor" or "under the hood" place which was needed to support the rest of the great planar construct but was never itself meant to be seen. Essentially the substrate of the D&D cosmos, an ad hoc scaffolding which was embedded in (under, above, around) reality, never removed, improperly sealed and improperly hidden.

Various planar conduits and shortcuts - like the Infinite Staircase, branches of the Ygdrasil Tree, parts of Mount Olympus - seemingly pass through or overlap with parts of the Astral.

If the Astral is an "unfinished" part of the cosmos then perhaps the Phlogiston is something similar. Raw, stark, naked, needed to join things together but never meant to actually be visited.

The Phlogiston has heen compared a great river in which crystal spheres float and drift. Spelljammers usually navigate "The Flow" which connects the Triad (Realmspace, Greyspace, Krynnspace) but countless "currents" and "eddies" can sometimes lead to other spheres. Spelljammer lore actually asserts (in a circumlocutive way) that the sphere which contains Athas (the world of Darksun and the apparent origin of all kreen species in Spelljammer and elsewhere) was accessible in past ages but has drifted away into lost isolation.

Maybe worth noting that Darksun seems to lack any deities or overdeities. It has some powerful entities but they are a lesser order than the proper deities of other D&D settings. It has only the most tenuous connections with the rest of the planes. Giths arrived on Athas long ago, but have been stranded so long that they've devolved into a degenerate race. A few individuals from Athas were captured by the malign drifting demiplane(s) of Ravenloft. There is an artifact on Athas which can access the planes, but it is unknown to most and strictly controlled by an epic adversary. I can't recall any references to Athas in planeslore, no Darksun natives who've somehow found their way to Sigil or beyond.

All the creation myths of D&D have a few things in common:
- There's the world (or worlds) populated by mortals and there's all the higher/lower "worlds"/planes/places meant to be inhabited by the higher/lower beings (deities and powers) these mortals worship.
- Mortals were invariably ignorant and unable to use magic until somebody they worshipped (illegally) taught them the first secrets of how it works.
So perhaps mortals were never meant to have enough access to the cosmos to learn about things like Astral and Phlogiston? The whole thing could have been "designed" in such a way that mortals would only see the "finished" areas, but instead the mortals were given hacks and cheat codes which they exploited to break the normal sequence of things in the game universe.

Kinda worrisome when all of creation admits to being a sloppy or unfinished thing full of unintended holes. No wonder overgods hardly bother to interact with it.

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Originally posted by Ayrik

"Layers" on other planes are defined by boundaries which separate shifts in philosophy, natural (or supernatural) laws, physical properties, and metaphorical terrain.

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Originally posted by Ayrik

"Layers" on other planes are defined by boundaries which separate shifts in philosophy, natural (or supernatural) laws, physical properties, and metaphorical terrain.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Ayrik

"Layers" on other planes are defined by boundaries which separate shifts in philosophy, natural (or supernatural) laws, physical properties, and metaphorical terrain.

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Layers within other planes don't necessarily have different philosophies -- sometimes, just different expressions of the same philosophy.

I would say the overall philosophy of the Prime is a neutral plane where all the other planes mix.

The sections of the Prime do have boundaries -- the spheres.

Different spheres do have different physical properties and natural and supernatural laws. High-tech stuff works on Greyhawk but not in the Realms, for example, and smoke powder doesn't always function the same from sphere to sphere.

And Spelljammer canon is very explicit: you cannot teleport between spheres. You can teleport within a sphere, but not between them.

So: boundaries; different properties/laws; and some form of planar transit, either spelljamming or moving through other planes required to move between them.

Layers.

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Originally posted by Gary Dallison

This is starting to sound an awful lot like how i organised the D&D cosmos.

I got the idea from the Immortals Handbook and a smattering of other sourcebooks that basically hinted that there was an older material plane before ours that was destroyed by the raging vortex of chaos which you spend the Immortal handbook campaigns trying to fight against. Aboleth origins hint that they came from this other prime material plane.

Then we have the Multiverse which is a mess of different spheres with different rules that are connected by a seeming nothingness, and i thought "which idiot would design something like that".

So what if the Multiverse was an accident. What if the Universe is what Chaos destroyed, and in the aftermath two smaller versions arose in it place. What if one or more was destroyed or almost destroyed (see the Tearfall for what happens if its almost destroyed) and two more arise, and two more, and two more. Lets face it there are no shortages of world ending catastrophes in D&D.

Thus we have the multiverse, a series of disconnected "spheres" of varying size, with different laws of reality.

The bit between them, the phlogiston sounded an awful lot like the Ethereal Plane to me, which has been described as the gap between the planes in at least one sourcebook, so why not have the ethereal plane and the phlogiston as the same thing, but the phlogiston is the very edge of the ethereal where some matter bleeds through and the rest of the ethereal is where it connects to the outer planes and where belief can manifest anything.

In theory you could travel from the material to the outer planes through the phlogiston but it would be a bloody long way (the universe is massive in reality so why can't the phlogiston be equally massive).





Thats how i dealt with it anyway, the layers thing works equally well but i went with a continually rebooting universe where each time it evolves along slightly different lines and so has the potential for different laws of reality.

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