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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4426 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Mar 2020 : 01:07:19
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The biggest issue here, and I don't think it's really been touched on, is that ALL of the prescribed Options in the voting would all suffer from some significant XP penalties due to how multiclassing restrictions work. Depending on the type of elf, it determines what class is favored. Moon and Sun elves has the Wizard as it's favored class. Wood is Ranger. Wild is Sorcerer. So monk/cleric are ALL going to have issues in that department.
BARRING or ignoring any or all multiclass restrictions, then Swordsage 12/ cleric 1/ monk 1/ sacred fist 1/ master of nine 5. Grab the Time domain for free Improved Initiative and the Elf domain for Point Blank Shot feat. Monk adds Stunning Fist. You get Caster level 2 and the AC bonus from Swordsage, Monk, and Stunning Fist stack (so +1 overall). Great saves. Stil a 17th level Initiator, so you get access to 9th level maneuvers. With Superior Unarmed Strike feat (at 18th level), he's hitting with 2d8 damage and he's using Wisdom to Attack rolls with Intuitive Attack (15th level). Spells per day: 4/5+1. Spell save DC 15 + spell level. Domain spell prepared: True Strike.
Still uses the requirements of Sacred Fist and Cleric. |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2020 : 01:12:19
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
The burden of proof is actually on you, CEV. You made the claim, now you have to back it up.
Where are these roaming bands of slavers enslaving 20th level characters coming from? No drow city has the kind of character level distribution needed for 20th level slaving bands.
Once again, I'm sorry you don't understand our simple rules of 3.5 D20 style. Do you honestly think the FR is crowded with mid-level players and low-level players only? Official stats for NPC's and novels alone have attested to this being undone as a theory.
Craulnober must be what?....
Elaith Craulnober: CN Moon elf male of Evermeet. Fighter 5/ Rogue 5/ Sorcerer 10. CR; 20.
That is not entirely far off at all as far as book value goes. His official stats are weak indeed. We all agree on that as a community. I am very close indeed. You guys can troll me all you want. Our D20 system works like melted butter. |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2020 : 01:21:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
The biggest issue here, and I don't think it's really been touched on, is that ALL of the prescribed Options in the voting would all suffer from some significant XP penalties due to how multiclassing restrictions work. Depending on the type of elf, it determines what class is favored. Moon and Sun elves has the Wizard as it's favored class. Wood is Ranger. Wild is Sorcerer. So monk/cleric are ALL going to have issues in that department.
BARRING or ignoring any or all multiclass restrictions, then Swordsage 12/ cleric 1/ monk 1/ sacred fist 1/ master of nine 5. Grab the Time domain for free Improved Initiative and the Elf domain for Point Blank Shot feat. Monk adds Stunning Fist. You get Caster level 2 and the AC bonus from Swordsage, Monk, and Stunning Fist stack (so +1 overall). Great saves. Stil a 17th level Initiator, so you get access to 9th level maneuvers. With Superior Unarmed Strike feat (at 18th level), he's hitting with 2d8 damage and he's using Wisdom to Attack rolls with Intuitive Attack (15th level). Spells per day: 4/5+1. Spell save DC 15 + spell level. Domain spell prepared: True Strike.
Still uses the requirements of Sacred Fist and Cleric.
I have LOB that doesn't even know that Sacred Fist requires divine caster levels.
A Moderator that hates Erevan Ilesere or elves in general and uses simple cheap descriptions to follow through with a base D&D fact.
I get attacked and I walk away. I cannot even further grace this with a reply.
It must be terrible to play a game with you guys where A=A and B=B and X=YZ*.
To be honest... I would deff play a PC in your game with you as DM. I would enjoy the challenge. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2020 : 02:00:11
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...You...you realize that a cleric is a divine caster, right?
There's also no such thing as a 20th level bond. The break DC for a chain is 26, which should be obtainable by a fighter (+9 str mod, take a 20).
Where did you ever get the idea that Elaith is 20th level? Is it because he's an elf, therefore he has to be high level (and you're doing that nonsynergistic multiclass thing again)? In canon, he's a fighter 3/wizard 9; since this was early in 3.5e, he could probably be restatted to better synergize his base classes. Fighter/Rogue/Sorc is pretty terrible, lacking any synergy and being bad at all three roles.
Also, I'm betting it's not so much Wooly hating on Erevan so much as he's tired of your monomaniacal focus on Erevan and bringing him up everywhere. Your advice to him was to play a rogue worshiper of Erevan. You write fanfiction involving your character, a super-powerful Erevanite cleric/rogue thing. You write fanfiction about Erevan and beg WOTC to canonize it, or claim that it's how that's supposed to be. You beg designers on this forum to include Erevan in lore. Your former stats for Erevan have him being higher level than Corellon and taking the Spell domain.
It's pretty offputting. |
Edited by - LordofBones on 28 Mar 2020 02:11:22 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2020 : 02:20:42
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Indeed, I don't hate Erevan at all. He's pretty much off my radar -- he's just not of interest to me at all.
And CEV, I've no idea where you're coming up with this "Moderator stipulations of what is good and bad in game play" crap. Saying that other people don't play epic games the way you do, or pointing out that most people start at a low level and work their way up to higher levels, without necessarily playing at epic levels at all, is not stipulating anything. It's stating facts. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4426 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2020 : 02:27:33
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Elaith's official stats were in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting as a 3.0 supplement. His stats aren't...well very good as LordofBones said. You know you never take an odd-level of Fighter for 3e. Also, his feats are wrong now since Ambidexterity was subsumed into the Two-Weapon Fighting tree, and Twin-Sword Style is just a slightly better version of Two-Weapon Defense.
I'd suggest to change his stats to Fighter 2/ Wizard 6/ Abjurant Champion 4.
EDIT: Also, Elaith's alignment is easily Neutral Evil, as his description stats in the FRCS |
Edited by - Diffan on 28 Mar 2020 02:30:19 |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2020 : 03:04:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Indeed, I don't hate Erevan at all. He's pretty much off my radar -- he's just not of interest to me at all.
And CEV, I've no idea where you're coming up with this "Moderator stipulations of what is good and bad in game play" crap. Saying that other people don't play epic games the way you do, or pointing out that most people start at a low level and work their way up to higher levels, without necessarily playing at epic levels at all, is not stipulating anything. It's stating facts.
Wow. Way to take my words out of context. Not srguing. I tried to post a simple poll with a simple question. I cannot help if you guys need to nit-pick my every word. I'm trying to describe simple D&D things and you guys keep showing me basic D&D baseline stats like I'm an idiot or something. I'm saying for the quadrillionth time that we take the D20 system and roll a epic campaign in FR without your "by the books" standard.
Once again... am I allowed to post something a little tweaked without ridicule? How about, good job CEV. Nice thinking outside the box.
It is what it is |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2020 : 03:15:12
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Nobody's bashing you for epic level play.
It's just that your proposed writeup for Elaith, and most of your NPCs, are kind of...weird. Like it or not, epic play requires a degree of minmax and understanding the game system; I just don't see that in a 20th level build that has 10th level casting, or a 30th level build with 20th level casting, or Rogue/Assassin/Arcane Devotee being passed off as a build that will carry players far.
I mean, none of it is really thinking outside the box. Diffan is the one that went outside the box here, taking your proposed build and turning it into a swordsage. Your proposed builds are all divine caster/divine caster prc or divine caster/divine caster prc/quirky prc, and that wizard/wild mage/cleric/sacred fist thing that's horrible at both arcane and divine casting thanks to being, at most, a 10th level pure caster in a 20th level campaign. |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2020 : 04:23:42
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Nobody's bashing you for epic level play.
It's just that your proposed writeup for Elaith, and most of your NPCs, are kind of...weird. Like it or not, epic play requires a degree of minmax and understanding the game system; I just don't see that in a 20th level build that has 10th level casting, or a 30th level build with 20th level casting, or Rogue/Assassin/Arcane Devotee being passed off as a build that will carry players far.
I mean, none of it is really thinking outside the box. Diffan is the one that went outside the box here, taking your proposed build and turning it into a swordsage. Your proposed builds are all divine caster/divine caster prc or divine caster/divine caster prc/quirky prc, and that wizard/wild mage/cleric/sacred fist thing that's horrible at both arcane and divine casting thanks to being, at most, a 10th level pure caster in a 20th level campaign.
OMG, I'm going to shoot myself if I have to explain this one more time. The Poll is what it is. As limited as you may feel that it is... it is still giving you options to choose from. I personally chose a Sacred Fist combo mix for you all to equally choose from. One of the best PrC's in 3.5ed. A Swordsage won't get you anywhere when you're fighting epic level slavers for freedom with just your bare hands and knees and elbows and feet.
You can be an epic Swordsage all you want, but without your weapons, you're just another victim.
I had no clue that epic level gaming was trolled here on Candlekeep. Or at least the way we play the D20 system.
I mean, my Balor or epic Fey'ri could be 7HD above what you're used to. IDK. Add class levels... forget about it.
And BTW... I thought my write up of Elaith Craulnober was on point considering what we've read before that story line was cancelled. Notorious killer of competition. Stalwart protector of anything elven in nature. Master of the elven blade dance. Downright protagonist against authority, Master of self-reinvention and self-reliance. The Serpent. Worthy blood to the heir of the Craulnober Moonblade.
I did a good simple stat block. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2020 : 04:45:48
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The sacred fist is a good prestige class, yes, but it also depends on the base class. Your rogues and fighters are going to stay at a solid level 1, while players pump the divine caster side of things because prepared casters are the most versatile and powerful things in the game.
And yes, a swordsage will do wonders, as the unarmed swordsage is a thing and is mentioned in the Book of 9 swords. The Tome of Nine Swords classes are supposed to reduce the gap between martials and casters. The swordsage is solidly tier 3, while the monk is generally considered to be one of the poorest martial classes in the game. You claim you play epic level, you should know how 3.5 works by now.
It's even worse that it's 20th level, because your 20th level slavers can comfortably stay out of your weaponless, spell-less, sacred fist's reach while nuking him from 300 feet in the air...or are they all going to be standing 5 feet before him?
And...I don't see how your claims make Elaith 20th level. Nothing he's ever shown puts him at 20th level. In comparison, a 17th level wizard in the Spider Queen series was taking on a small army of fiends. You also don't seem to get that your proposed build for Elaith is terrible. He's a warrior-mage; make him an abjurant champion instead of the bizarre hybrid of classes that make him utterly terrible in all his fields. |
Edited by - LordofBones on 28 Mar 2020 04:56:13 |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
889 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2020 : 07:58:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
You're an elf PC and your background is slavery induced by Thayans.
You are sold in the market of Skullport by drow servitors in service to Thay themselves. You are doomed.
No weapons, no armor. what class do you wish to hail from?
All below mentioned NPC's are 20'th level max in class combinations.
Let's step back to the beginning. So we have an PC with a background of slavery. As I understand, the session starts play with the PC in slavery. The only way a PC with - 20 levels in whatever combination of core and prestige classes
and - a slavery background
is - to break out of slavery, advance levels in those classes, then get captured, disarmed and sold back into slavery
or - the PC somehow advanced to 20 levels of their classes while spending his or her whole time in slavery
or - the gaming premise is 20th level is the new 1st level and lower levels are reserved for commoners, aristocrats, experts and warriors.
The first bullet of the three conclusions is the one that would be most likely to satisfy Occam's Razor. The other two conclusions require some extra effort and developing a rationale. This argument applies regardless of PC race or class, mandated by DM or otherwise.
The latter two bullets really challenge any suspension of disbelief. The situation gets even more strained if the proposed level 20 PC's have all class levels in multiples of 5. It is this suspension of disbelief that I hereby assert is necessary to have a successful, enjoyable gaming session. The fact the poll itself is debated rather than people's responses to the poll being debated leads me to conclude the suspension of disbelief is just not there. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4426 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2020 : 15:25:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
You can be an epic Swordsage all you want, but without your weapons, you're just another victim.
quote:
Originally created by the Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords
To create a Monk-like character with a tremendous array of fantastic moves and strikes, give the swordsage the monk's unarmed strike progression and remove his light armor proficiency.
This puts the Swordsage on-par with Monks when comparing their Unarmed Strike (elbow, knee, fist) damage. Swordsages also add their Wisdom modifier to any strike they make (so that Inferno Blast is actually dealing 105 damage for a Reflex DC 24 save for half). Understand that the swordsage can do Inferno Blast every other round. All day. No components. No somatic abilities. I do believe it's a Supernatural effect, thus affected by Anti-Magic Field though.
That's sort of the beauty behind these classes and this sub-system. It does allow for a lot of martial and supernatural capabilities with limited supplies. A Monk/Cleric/Sacred Fist can do some of these things sure, but they also have spells that require a spell component or holy symbol. They also need time to cast these spells too.
So assume you have an elf cleric 8/ monk 2/ Sacred Fist 10, you're still only getting to 8th level spells at best. Your Unarmed Strike Damage is only 2d6 (and you're not adding anything but your Strength modifier to the damage roll). Your base saves are +16/+12/+12 (not bad at all, but the Swordsage is comparable).
Feat-wise, you get some freedom to take things like Intuitive Attack (Book of Exalted Deeds) that uses Wisdom for Attack rolls (not damage rolls) and maybe devote some options to better use of your Turn Undead abilities. I actually prefer either Divine Metamagic (Complete Divine supplement) Quicken Spell or Persistent Spell. The former adds a quicker variety of options but the latter adds a longer effect. So that Divine Might/Righteous Might combo lasts all day long. The latter also requires a significant amount of turning attempts per-day. As an elf and I'm assuming point-buy or maybe the elite array for stats, Charisma isn't going to be super high on that list, so you're going to Persist one, maybe two spells per-day.
What I'm trying to say is that the above options aren't bad in and of themselves, but for a character who's been thrown into Slavery, and asking what sort of character to make in such dire circumstances, I'd much rather prefer the more quick and versatile Swordsage/master of nine combination. Adding Monk/Cleric/Sacred Fist in here doesn't completely derail the options, but I wouldn't call them a boost either. If anything it adds some healing and maybe some get-out quick capabilities like Obscuring Mist or maybe simply some extra damage with Ice Gauntlet. It could also be used for utility spells like Ebon Eyes, allowing you to see better in the near total darkness that is the Underdark. |
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Tasker Daze
Seeker
84 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2020 : 16:07:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
You're an elf PC and your background is slavery induced by Thayans.
You are sold in the market of Skullport by drow servitors in service to Thay themselves. You are doomed.
No weapons, no armor. what class do you wish to hail from?
All below mentioned NPC's are 20'th level max in class combinations.
Okay I'll play. I'm doomed so the class doesn't matter. I''m a slave until I die. Next campain. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2020 : 17:05:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Tasker Daze
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
You're an elf PC and your background is slavery induced by Thayans.
You are sold in the market of Skullport by drow servitors in service to Thay themselves. You are doomed.
No weapons, no armor. what class do you wish to hail from?
All below mentioned NPC's are 20'th level max in class combinations.
Okay I'll play. I'm doomed so the class doesn't matter. I''m a slave until I die. Next campain.
This. So much this. It's as I said before, very poor storytelling. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4426 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2020 : 18:27:06
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Suppose I go ahead and do a write-up for one of these characters. How are ability scores generated? Roll 4d6, drop the lowest? Point-buy? Elite Array? What supplements are allowed in this build, assuming it's one of the prescribed options? Any restrictions? Are the multiclass restrictions turned off? There's a LOT of variables not mentioned to the creation of such a character. For example, an elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) isn't that great for a cleric/monk combo but can be mitigated by a Druid. If it's 4d6, drop the lowest then it opens up it up a LOT more.
Assuming that 1) no multiclass restrictions and 2) roll for stats: I'd opt for the LN Cleric (Vandria Gilmadrith) 8/Monk 2/Sacred Fist 10 combination. Rolling for stats, I got 18, 16, 15, 12, 12, 12 (that's pretty bomb, I might add). So with that my stats at 20th level would be Str 12, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 22, Cha 12 (putting 4 points into Wisdom, the last in Constitution). Base Attack Bonus is +17/+12/+7/+2. Class features are: Domains (Elf, War). Turn Undead Cha mod + 3/day (+3, 2d6+9; 8th). Spontaneously cast Cure spells. Spellcasting: DC 10 + 6 + spell level. Spells per day: 6/7+1/7+1/6+1/6+1/6+1/4+1/3+1/2+1 Improved Unarmed Strike (2d6 per attack). AC bonus from Monk and Sacred Fist: +3. Flurry of Blows: -2/-2 (*see below). Unarmored Speed: +30-ft. Sacred Flames 2/day. Blindsense. Inner Armor: 1/day (6 rounds).
Feats: Combat Casting, Combat Reflexes*, Divine Metamagic (Quicken Spell), Extra Turning (3), Improved Unarmed Attack*, Intuitive Attack, Point Blank Shot*, Quicken Spell, Stunning Fist*, Weapon Focus (longbow)*
*Bonus feats
Skills: meh, I absolutely hate skills and all the blah ranks that go along with them. Take the max total number of skills allowed: 93 total ranks [Cleric (33 ranks), Monk (10 ranks), Sacred Fist (50 ranks)] and just do whatever with them.
AC 23, touch 23, flat-footed 18
HP 142 (20d8 + 40 HD)
Fort +18, Ref +16, Will +18
Speed 60 ft. (12 squares)
Melee unarmed strike +23/+18/+13/+8 (2d6+1/x2)
Atk Options Sacred Flames 2/day (+16 damage for 1 minute), Stunning Fist 6/day (DC 26)
Special Actions inner armor 1/day (6 rounds), turn undead 16/day (+3, 2d6+9; 8th)
*As for how Flurry of Blows works, it's kind of a messed up sub-attack system. It's based off the Monk base attack bonus, giving them a quasi-two weapon fighting ability that gets better over time. The thing is, with how multiclassing works it doesn't really hold up if you opt out of the monk early or take a Prestige Class that also adds Flurry of Blows to the character. That being said, one way of handling it is treating it like a secondary attack as part of a full-attack action. This falls in line with a lot of other options that are presented in 3.5 and it simply an extra attack but each attack (including the extra one) there after receives a -2 penalty to rolls for the turn. So in our buddy's sense here, it would look like this Melee unarmed attack +21/+21/+16/+11/+6 (2d6+1/x2). This is how I'd run it at later levels.
EDIT: I realized that the caster level is still a lowly 16th level. IF you wanted more "oomph" from your spells per day, you could simply swap out one of the Extra Turning feats for Practiced Spellcaster. This jumps your Caster Level to 20th but it also means your quickening one less spell per day (assuming you're not doing it the old way of preparing quicken spells).
EDIT #2: I also just realized that you "could" get into 9th level spells. You would have to drop that second level of Monk (losing a +1/+0/+1 and Stunning Fist) but that would mean getting Stunning Fist the old way and spending a feat for it. It also loses out on a +1 to Base Attack Bonus. You get 9th level spells though. |
Edited by - Diffan on 28 Mar 2020 18:41:45 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2020 : 09:48:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
You're an elf PC and your background is slavery induced by Thayans.
You are sold in the market of Skullport by drow servitors in service to Thay themselves. You are doomed.
No weapons, no armor. what class do you wish to hail from?
All below mentioned NPC's are 20'th level max in class combinations.
Let's step back to the beginning. So we have an PC with a background of slavery. As I understand, the session starts play with the PC in slavery. The only way a PC with - 20 levels in whatever combination of core and prestige classes
and - a slavery background
is - to break out of slavery, advance levels in those classes, then get captured, disarmed and sold back into slavery
or - the PC somehow advanced to 20 levels of their classes while spending his or her whole time in slavery
or - the gaming premise is 20th level is the new 1st level and lower levels are reserved for commoners, aristocrats, experts and warriors.
The first bullet of the three conclusions is the one that would be most likely to satisfy Occam's Razor. The other two conclusions require some extra effort and developing a rationale. This argument applies regardless of PC race or class, mandated by DM or otherwise.
The latter two bullets really challenge any suspension of disbelief. The situation gets even more strained if the proposed level 20 PC's have all class levels in multiples of 5. It is this suspension of disbelief that I hereby assert is necessary to have a successful, enjoyable gaming session. The fact the poll itself is debated rather than people's responses to the poll being debated leads me to conclude the suspension of disbelief is just not there.
I remember seeing a picture where a drow priestess ended up in a crisis of faith because she wasn't sure whether the human barbarian she captured and enslaved was genuine or had being enslaved by a skimpily-clad dominatrix as a kink.
Mind you, I've also seen one where a human knight ended up being captured by a drow priestess, with the sequel pics making it clear that "slavery" really meant "getting hitched to a nice man who'd have no choice but to hold my hand and take me out for romantic walks while I gloated about it like a Saturday Morning Cartoon villain". |
Edited by - LordofBones on 29 Mar 2020 09:48:52 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4426 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2020 : 00:28:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
Elaith Craulnober: CN Moon elf male of Evermeet. Fighter 5/ Rogue 5/ Sorcerer 10. CR; 20.
One thing I want to touch upon, though I know this isn't really part of the discussion, but I feel 4E would have done a much better job representing Elaith's stats than either 3e or 5e. For a good conversion, he'd be about 18th to 19th level challenge in 4th Edition. Due to his cunning, I'd definitely put him as either a Controller role or possibly a Skirmisher role since he's all about that fancy sword work and mixes it up with arcane attacks.
At first glance I thought the Swordmage abilities would really fit him, because he's protective of his Moonblade heirloom and it's current owner Azariah. BUT that is something exceptionally special that doesn't really fit the theme of Swordmages who want to protect others too. In the end, I'd give him some decent attacks with his longsword and dagger, with some arcane attacks too. Probably some utility with Invisibility spells and a plethora of rituals and scrolls. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2020 : 21:52:37
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Master Rupert,
I understand that you're taking the literal listing of 20th level as the parameter given by Senior Scribe Copper Elven Vampire. I understand why. However, just because Senior Scribe Copper Elven Vampire got it wrong about what constitutes powerful (there are many examples of characters below the childish notion of 20th being some vaunted, sacrosanct point of power), doesn't mean going with the incorrect assumption or parameter makes it any more correct. Pellanistra Ousstyl (CE female drow P12 of Lolth) of House Ousstyl was a matron mother (Drizz't DoUrden's Guide to the Underdark, p.49), though I am not necessarily saying that those two Pellanistra's are one and the same, though they could be, as she was identified as an "enemy of Menzoberranzan." Matron Mother's are powerful. Just because they were not selling her at the moment, doesn't mean it isn't the same situation. Though, if that is a hang up for you, you may recognize by reading proximate to that quoted passage that Pharaun was even considering buying her, but the time would take too long to negotiate the sale from Nym. So, a sale apparently was an option, just not feasible/.
That being said, there is an absolute sensibility to the idea that this female Drow was powerful. It is stated in that novel that most female Drow are killed on site due to their prowess. Powerful ones are restrained and sold into sexual slavery for the added benefit of extra humiliation, torture and domination. So, it is feasible that she was powerful.
Propagation of non-contextual explicit statements, when unnecessary, and pushing a banal trope from the creator of a poll just further highlights an already clearly, and poorly constructed poll.
Essentially, the argument here is about what constitutes a person of power. If you are still of the mind, which I have no reason to believe you have changed your mind, that powerful people are powerful when they can one on one somebody as per our discussion about Shoon VII in another scroll, then this is just a situation where we can agree to disagree in reference to that scroll.
I consider that female Drow to be powerful, when having access to her powers, but also due to her position in Drow society.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master Rupert,
I only take exception to one point you made here, which is in defiance of established canon:
quote:
I don't see why a bunch of 20th level slavers are going to be looking to sell another level 20 character.
There was a scene in War of the Spider Queen Book 1: Dissolution that clearly describes why a slaver would in fact sell someone of power, i.e. the vaunted level referred too in this scroll.
quote:
The reason was that, while they generally devoted their military efforts to fighting cloakers, svirfneblin, and other competing civilizations of the Underdark, drow cities on rare occasions waged war on one another. Once in a while, such conflicts yielded female prisoners.
The prudent, legitimate thing to do with such potentially dangerous captives was interrogate, torture, and kill them. That fact notwithstanding, Nym had on several occasions managed to bribe officers to give him their prisoners, whom he then smuggled into Menzoberranzan and down to the cellar of the Jewel Box.
Nym had gone to all this trouble based on the shrewd and well-proven assumption that a goodly number of Menzoberranyr males would pay handsomely for the privilege of dominating a female, and in his establishment, one could do anything one wanted with a captive. Nym would even provide a customer with a bastinado, a brazier of coals, thumbscrews . . . his only stipulation being that one must pay a surcharge if one left a permanent mark.
Since the brothel's existence was an open secret, Pharaun wasn't sure why the matron mothers hadn't shut it down. On the face of it, it certainly seemed to encourage disrespect for the ruling gender. Perhaps they felt that if a male had a refuge in which to act out his resentments, it would make him all the more deferential to the females in his home. More likely, Nym was slipping them a substantial portion of the take.
At any rate, the Jewel Box seemed a reasonable place to seek information concerning rogue males, especially if one had a spy in place. Pharaun wasn't confident that he did anymore, but one never knew.
The stairs emptied into a hallway of numbered doors. Moans of passions and grunts of pain sounded faintly from behind several of them. It was busier than usual.
The mage strolled down the passage until he found number fourteen. He hesitated for an instant, then scowled and turned the largest of his keys in the lock. The door swung open.
Seated on the bed, shackles clutching her wrists and ankles, Pellanistra looked much as he remembered, the same powerful, shapely limbs and heart-shaped face, with only a few more scars where one or another of her visitors had pressed down too hard, as well as a split lip and closed, puffy eye where a more recent caller had beaten her.
She lifted her face, saw him, and charged with her long-nailed hands outstretched. Then she staggered as one of her governing enchantments riddled her body with pain, and an instant later hit the end of the chains securing her to the wall. She lost her balance and fell on her rump. (War of the Spider Queen Book 1: Dissolution, pp.33-4)
That thoroughly answers why slavers would want to sell a powerful person, in the case of the book, a powerful Drow female priestess: to repeatedly rape her in perpetuity for the purpose of dominance, money, and because their evil and like to cause pain, as was stated and/or implied.
Power and dominance are why people do horrid, evil, unspeakable things like what Bob and Richard wrote about in that book.
As always, I await your rebuttal.
You're reading that wrong. They weren't selling someone of great power, and there's nothing that indicates anyone involved was 20th level.
In fact, if they are prisoners of war, then it is pretty clear they have little personal or political power -- at least in Menzoberranzan.
The passage you cite was specifically about letting someone oppressed have power over someone of the same class as their oppressors.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2020 : 21:55:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
Elaith Craulnober: CN Moon elf male of Evermeet. Fighter 5/ Rogue 5/ Sorcerer 10. CR; 20.
One thing I want to touch upon, though I know this isn't really part of the discussion, but I feel 4E would have done a much better job representing Elaith's stats than either 3e or 5e. For a good conversion, he'd be about 18th to 19th level challenge in 4th Edition. Due to his cunning, I'd definitely put him as either a Controller role or possibly a Skirmisher role since he's all about that fancy sword work and mixes it up with arcane attacks.
At first glance I thought the Swordmage abilities would really fit him, because he's protective of his Moonblade heirloom and it's current owner Azariah. BUT that is something exceptionally special that doesn't really fit the theme of Swordmages who want to protect others too. In the end, I'd give him some decent attacks with his longsword and dagger, with some arcane attacks too. Probably some utility with Invisibility spells and a plethora of rituals and scrolls.
Yes! On point with that. Yes he is a fighter, and arcane caster, but he has a 3.5 roguishness to him that leads me to believe that he would have sufficient rogue levels as well. In 3.0 he was stated as CR 12 I believe? And that was 1372 DR? WE have no idea what happened to him due to the fact that WoTc or whomever decided to cancel her trilogy before she could finish her amazing storyline for him. Elaine Cunningham that is. The author who took an Ed Greenwood NPC and turned him into something in your face and interesting.
Remember that ancient elven blade dance he did in "Elfsong". To this day that scene plays in my mind with a thousand "Huzazzahs".
Anyway... I thought my stats for him were pretty correct if you add in the hundred-plus years since 1372DR. He would have had more than enough time to level up from CR 12 to CR 20.
Just my two Zhents.
CEV. |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2020 : 21:58:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
You can be an epic Swordsage all you want, but without your weapons, you're just another victim.
quote:
Originally created by the Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords
To create a Monk-like character with a tremendous array of fantastic moves and strikes, give the swordsage the monk's unarmed strike progression and remove his light armor proficiency.
This puts the Swordsage on-par with Monks when comparing their Unarmed Strike (elbow, knee, fist) damage. Swordsages also add their Wisdom modifier to any strike they make (so that Inferno Blast is actually dealing 105 damage for a Reflex DC 24 save for half). Understand that the swordsage can do Inferno Blast every other round. All day. No components. No somatic abilities. I do believe it's a Supernatural effect, thus affected by Anti-Magic Field though.
That's sort of the beauty behind these classes and this sub-system. It does allow for a lot of martial and supernatural capabilities with limited supplies. A Monk/Cleric/Sacred Fist can do some of these things sure, but they also have spells that require a spell component or holy symbol. They also need time to cast these spells too.
So assume you have an elf cleric 8/ monk 2/ Sacred Fist 10, you're still only getting to 8th level spells at best. Your Unarmed Strike Damage is only 2d6 (and you're not adding anything but your Strength modifier to the damage roll). Your base saves are +16/+12/+12 (not bad at all, but the Swordsage is comparable).
Feat-wise, you get some freedom to take things like Intuitive Attack (Book of Exalted Deeds) that uses Wisdom for Attack rolls (not damage rolls) and maybe devote some options to better use of your Turn Undead abilities. I actually prefer either Divine Metamagic (Complete Divine supplement) Quicken Spell or Persistent Spell. The former adds a quicker variety of options but the latter adds a longer effect. So that Divine Might/Righteous Might combo lasts all day long. The latter also requires a significant amount of turning attempts per-day. As an elf and I'm assuming point-buy or maybe the elite array for stats, Charisma isn't going to be super high on that list, so you're going to Persist one, maybe two spells per-day.
What I'm trying to say is that the above options aren't bad in and of themselves, but for a character who's been thrown into Slavery, and asking what sort of character to make in such dire circumstances, I'd much rather prefer the more quick and versatile Swordsage/master of nine combination. Adding Monk/Cleric/Sacred Fist in here doesn't completely derail the options, but I wouldn't call them a boost either. If anything it adds some healing and maybe some get-out quick capabilities like Obscuring Mist or maybe simply some extra damage with Ice Gauntlet. It could also be used for utility spells like Ebon Eyes, allowing you to see better in the near total darkness that is the Underdark.
Brilliant. I never put the two together. wow. very cool. |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2020 : 22:05:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
You're an elf PC and your background is slavery induced by Thayans.
You are sold in the market of Skullport by drow servitors in service to Thay themselves. You are doomed.
No weapons, no armor. what class do you wish to hail from?
All below mentioned NPC's are 20'th level max in class combinations.
Let's step back to the beginning. So we have an PC with a background of slavery. As I understand, the session starts play with the PC in slavery. The only way a PC with - 20 levels in whatever combination of core and prestige classes
and - a slavery background
is - to break out of slavery, advance levels in those classes, then get captured, disarmed and sold back into slavery
or - the PC somehow advanced to 20 levels of their classes while spending his or her whole time in slavery
or - the gaming premise is 20th level is the new 1st level and lower levels are reserved for commoners, aristocrats, experts and warriors.
The first bullet of the three conclusions is the one that would be most likely to satisfy Occam's Razor. The other two conclusions require some extra effort and developing a rationale. This argument applies regardless of PC race or class, mandated by DM or otherwise.
The latter two bullets really challenge any suspension of disbelief. The situation gets even more strained if the proposed level 20 PC's have all class levels in multiples of 5. It is this suspension of disbelief that I hereby assert is necessary to have a successful, enjoyable gaming session. The fact the poll itself is debated rather than people's responses to the poll being debated leads me to conclude the suspension of disbelief is just not there.
Almost... You're a 20th level PC to start in a beginners epic game and this is your lot in life. You cannot start the Module and connect with your future companions unless you choose one of these limited class combos. That is it. Hasn't anyone played a limited class, restricted pre-option game before? |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2020 : 22:15:43
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
The sacred fist is a good prestige class, yes, but it also depends on the base class. Your rogues and fighters are going to stay at a solid level 1, while players pump the divine caster side of things because prepared casters are the most versatile and powerful things in the game.
And yes, a swordsage will do wonders, as the unarmed swordsage is a thing and is mentioned in the Book of 9 swords. The Tome of Nine Swords classes are supposed to reduce the gap between martials and casters. The swordsage is solidly tier 3, while the monk is generally considered to be one of the poorest martial classes in the game. You claim you play epic level, you should know how 3.5 works by now.
It's even worse that it's 20th level, because your 20th level slavers can comfortably stay out of your weaponless, spell-less, sacred fist's reach while nuking him from 300 feet in the air...or are they all going to be standing 5 feet before him?
And...I don't see how your claims make Elaith 20th level. Nothing he's ever shown puts him at 20th level. In comparison, a 17th level wizard in the Spider Queen series was taking on a small army of fiends. You also don't seem to get that your proposed build for Elaith is terrible. He's a warrior-mage; make him an abjurant champion instead of the bizarre hybrid of classes that make him utterly terrible in all his fields.
If you use the Complete Scoundrel accessory, then you can be a Melee/Caster no problem while getting roguish stuff in abundance. But if you don't us the accessory, then he would have the rogue class with enough skills to thwart and bypass moderate magical traps. IDK. Elaith has a rogue element to him, so maybe we should use the Complete Scoundrel book to supplement that aspect of him.
That's why they came out with that 3.5 accessory.... because some PC's and NPC's are rogues in personality, disposition and morals, without having the rogue class.
Not saying I'm right. Just saying there is more to consider in game play. |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2020 : 22:35:00
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Nobody's bashing you for epic level play.
It's just that your proposed writeup for Elaith, and most of your NPCs, are kind of...weird. Like it or not, epic play requires a degree of minmax and understanding the game system; I just don't see that in a 20th level build that has 10th level casting, or a 30th level build with 20th level casting, or Rogue/Assassin/Arcane Devotee being passed off as a build that will carry players far.
I mean, none of it is really thinking outside the box. Diffan is the one that went outside the box here, taking your proposed build and turning it into a swordsage. Your proposed builds are all divine caster/divine caster prc or divine caster/divine caster prc/quirky prc, and that wizard/wild mage/cleric/sacred fist thing that's horrible at both arcane and divine casting thanks to being, at most, a 10th level pure caster in a 20th level campaign.
quote:
epic play requires a degree of minmax and understanding the game system; I just don't see that in a 20th level build that has 10th level casting, or a 30th level build with 20th level casting, or Rogue/Assassin/Arcane Devotee being passed off as a build that will carry players far.
....
I'm truly sorry you don't play games where everyone isn't a level 20 max single class character alone. The min/max thing is important in our game, so far as we play the PC or the DM plays the NPC correctly. How is a single class Wizard 20, more powerful than a Rogue 10/ Sorcerer 10? The Rogue 10 will roll past most of your spells of harm depending on the roll and your stats, gear and whatnot. If the rogue rolls closer and closer in proximity then eventually he can blind-side the wizard and sneak attack with blade or spell and do much more damage to the individual.
At least the way we play the D20 system.
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2020 : 23:07:19
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I... I legitimately can't tell if you're trolling. The wizard is, by far, the most powerful class in the game, only equalled by CoDzilla and the Arcanist. He has so many ways to murder a rogue 10 that it isn't funny.
A rogue 10/sor 10 will have terrible bab, poor spellcasting, and is likely having to deal with the wizard shrugging off his sneak attacks assuming the wizard isn't outright immune. Meanwhile, the wizard will auto win against your buffs.
How can you claim to eat and breathe the 3.5e system without knowing that casters are the most powerful thing in the game? It just doesn't add up, especially in epic where epic spellcasting is so easily broken. |
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Tasker Daze
Seeker
84 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2020 : 05:11:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
Hasn't anyone played a limited class, restricted pre-option game before?
yes. but there were more choices and a more believable plot. |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
889 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2020 : 07:00:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
Almost... You're a 20th level PC to start in a beginners epic game and this is your lot in life. You cannot start the Module and connect with your future companions unless you choose one of these limited class combos. That is it. Hasn't anyone played a limited class, restricted pre-option game before?
Let us focus on your very own term "beginners epic game". That is an extraordinarily awkward combination, especially knowing this game is D&D 3.5 edition. Yes, I have played a limited class, restricted pre-option game multiple times. The ones that lasted more than 3 hours always started at Level 1 where restricted options make sense. Starting straight at level 20 has all the feel of a video game where the player can - save at any moment
- pause the game
- turn off the computer for however long
- boot up the computer and log into the game
- then resume play as if nothing had happened in that indefinite time period the computer was off.
By starting at Level 1, the DM can set the tone of the setting and its axioms (a.k.a., the rationale behind limited classes and restricted pre-option). There is something unforced about assumptions when characters start at Level 1 and 0 XP because it is clear they are starting with a clean slate. Starting at Level 20 forces the DM to pull all these ninja tricks as to how and why the characters got into their position, for good or for ill. Otherwise, the game devolves into the feel of a pause and restart video game.
If your DM and the other players - whose styles you have known for years - are comfortable with the parameters you described, by all means go ahead. My 38 years of D&D experience suggest you start at Level One. That goes double for 3.5 edition, which is notorious for Rocket Tag power mechanics at Level 20+. I would not bother joining such a game. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2020 : 12:25:41
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| Also, I get the feeling that CEV doesn't really get the min-max thing. It doesn't really mean what he thinks it means. Min-max would be getting a rogue/wizard hybrid to hit 9th level spells and the maximum possible sneak attack damage. Like, if you legitimately think that a Rogue 10 with 5th level spells is more powerful than a 20th level spellcaster with full caster progression and 9th level casting, you don't understand the system. Spells scale exponentially. At 5th level spells, you create cones of cold. At 9th level, you can recreate Ragnarok. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2020 : 13:13:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Tasker Daze
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
Hasn't anyone played a limited class, restricted pre-option game before?
yes. but there were more choices and a more believable plot.
Agreed. This sounds more like a game you'd play with a 10-year-old. "Here's your character. Her name is Amanda and she likes Unicorns. When she meets her friends, I want her to say this..."
A limited class, restricted pre-option game is telling your players no multiclassing, don't use X book, or no rogues. It's not giving them a paper doll and telling them they can wear whatever outfit you give them. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 01 Apr 2020 13:16:57 |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2020 : 14:42:13
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Also, I get the feeling that CEV doesn't really get the min-max thing. It doesn't really mean what he thinks it means. Min-max would be getting a rogue/wizard hybrid to hit 9th level spells and the maximum possible sneak attack damage. Like, if you legitimately think that a Rogue 10 with 5th level spells is more powerful than a 20th level spellcaster with full caster progression and 9th level casting, you don't understand the system. Spells scale exponentially. At 5th level spells, you create cones of cold. At 9th level, you can recreate Ragnarok.
WOW... are you just reading black and white rules to me? Anyone who knows how to play a Rogue 10/ Sorcerer 10 can take out a 20th level wizard if you use your brain. I adore how you think a wizard who casts 9th level spells is the ultimate, unbeatable thing ever. |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2020 : 14:45:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by Tasker Daze
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
Hasn't anyone played a limited class, restricted pre-option game before?
yes. but there were more choices and a more believable plot.
Agreed. This sounds more like a game you'd play with a 10-year-old. "Here's your character. Her name is Amanda and she likes Unicorns. When she meets her friends, I want her to say this..."
A limited class, restricted pre-option game is telling your players no multiclassing, don't use X book, or no rogues. It's not giving them a paper doll and telling them they can wear whatever outfit you give them.
Right. And the point is what? That's what a limited class, restricted pre-option game is. lol. Those games are very fun because it forces you to do the best you can with what you're given. lol. We like that. |
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Say you were a slave...
