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 Gods going to Abeir MAY BE CANON
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2020 :  11:59:16  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
So, I was looking at the 4e FRCG for Sseth, and I saw this about "Lost Dominions" on page 65.

Lost Dominions
In the history of Toril, numerous deities have died by various means. Others have changed allegiances or suffered from the effects of the Spellplague. A few disappeared into Abeir. Indeed, whole pantheons have left Faerűn or have been destroyed. When a dominion is abandoned or destroyed, it largely fades from existence or breaks apart. However, remnants of it sometimes persist in the Astral Sea. The same is true for the corpses of slain deities— some remain intact, some leave signs behind, and others simply disappear.

Other astral entities sometimes inhabit these fragments. It is possible to draw power from such astral flotsam, so finding one can be tremendously beneficial. Of all astral entities, the githyanki are best at accumulating such valuable assets.



I'd been proposing that some of the dominions or "divine domains" or planes of certain groups may have become no longer attached to Toril and instead attached to Abeir. For instance, Dweomerheart would be one, and its inhabitants maybe weren't slain they simply disappeared. Zigguraxus for the Untheric Pantheon. Leira's Court of Illusion. Bhaal's Throne of Blood. Moander's Offalmound. Along these lines, we have the story of Tyr, Sune and Lathander going and imprisoning Cyric as a punishment, but then afterwards Tyr and Lathander leave the pantheon and Amaunator appears. So, perhaps they actually went on a trip to Abeir... maybe to try and find their fellow deities, but they get trapped and what returns is Amaunator (I guess I really need to read descent into Avernus to see what the new ties to Zariel are for the sun that was summoned too).

BTW, one of the things I'd been proposing is that Velsharoon was in dweomerheart and didn't escape as was written. Rather, his ascension involved taking over the power of Mellifleur's presence in realmspace, and when he was transferred, Mellifleur got freed. Thus, the being the Simbul killed would be Mellifleur. I also don't view Mellifleur as the same thing others would. I view Mellifleur as a collective consciousness across the planes that was helping would be liches to enact a variation of the lich ritual such that it could steal power from a deity and make them into quasipowers. They would also unknowingly enact a ritual similar to the one used by Kiaransalee and Orcus to erase the memory of the being's prior name and make everyone remember that "it was Mellifleur that ascended by accident". With Talos' help, Velsharoon realized how to do the former without doing the latter ritual, and thus could use the name of Mellifleur without being subjugated by its will.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 24 Mar 2020 12:10:07

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 24 Mar 2020 :  14:19:57  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Isn't it explicitly stated, though, that Abeir didn't have deities?

If Abeir didn't have deities, but some disappeared into Abeir, then it would seemed they tried (or were forced) to go there and were destroyed/kicked out.

It could also be that they disappeared at the same time as the mess with Abeir showing up, and it was simply a misconception that they went to Abeir.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 24 Mar 2020 14:28:35
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cpthero2
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Posted - 24 Mar 2020 :  14:38:51  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Rupert,

The implication you pose, I feel has some merit. Though, I think the mystery is what happens when a deity does go there? Are they in fact destroyed, or something else? If they are not outright destroyed, what does happen to them?

Also, is it known why Abeir didn't have deities? If it is something that would lead to a deities death for example, then that answers the question. If not, who knows at that point.

Best regards,



Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2441 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2020 :  15:03:33  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Discard Zigguraxus. We know it was abandoned, as it was drifting in the Astral when Enlil reclaimed it in The Devil You Know. Nobody has lay a claim on it since Tiamat abandoned it before the Spellplague.

The "summoned sun" wasn't a sun at all. It was an artifact, a Solar Insidiator. It was a metal sphere made in the forge of Bel in the Nine Hells, that had a trapped Solar (an angel) inside as a holy-power battery. It was nothing out of Abeir or god-related.

On topic, in my campaign I've toyed with the idea that the Not-Egyptian gods were sent to Abeir. By that logic, the Maztican gods as well.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 24 Mar 2020 15:26:58
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2441 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2020 :  15:15:48  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Isn't it explicitly stated, though, that Abeir didn't have deities?



It has, according to Ed in Twitter. However, they do not hold sway there. According to Ed, Mystra is aware of the raw magic of Abeir, but she don't use it, for instance. They have do not act or have and influence there, at least not in a way the Torilians (and we, Earthlings) understand (see the dragonborn entry in the 4e FRPG). And gods do not go willingly there, as they fear that world (as per The Devil You Know).
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2441 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2020 :  15:26:10  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2


Also, is it known why Abeir didn't have deities? If it is something that would lead to a deities death for example, then that answers the question. If not, who knows at that point.

Best regards,




Ao's decree. Toril was for the gods (the astral gods, I mean) and Abeir was for the Primordials (or "elemental gods").

A few gods do influence Abeir, but are usually the beings that have been catalogued as Primordials later in 4e, such as the dragon god Io or the Four Elemental Gods of Toril.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 24 Mar 2020 :  18:05:08  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2


Also, is it known why Abeir didn't have deities? If it is something that would lead to a deities death for example, then that answers the question. If not, who knows at that point.

Best regards,




Ao's decree. Toril was for the gods (the astral gods, I mean) and Abeir was for the Primordials (or "elemental gods").

A few gods do influence Abeir, but are usually the beings that have been catalogued as Primordials later in 4e, such as the dragon god Io or the Four Elemental Gods of Toril.



This is part of why I've hated the primordial thing since they intro'ed it. We have some primordials that seem to be nothing more than somewhat more powerful elementals, others that were somehow on a power level comparable with gods, all the primordials being banished (except those who weren't!), primordials being something distinct from gods (except those who were gods), and with all of this, no clear definition on what primordials really were.

Everything we know about primordials, we have examples of the opposite.

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cpthero2
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Posted - 24 Mar 2020 :  18:50:05  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader sleyvas,

What do you think about that input from Master Zeromaru X? It seems like that locks it down for your hypothesis being a no go.

Thoughts?

Best regards,




Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2020 :  19:38:09  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No, its not specifically a no go. We have, as many have even shown here, conflicting statements about things. This just adds credence to the theory that certain gods MAY have been sent there. Also, all statements of "fact" are from prior to the spellplague, so what happened after the spellplague, from Toril's standpoint is unknown. Basically, where previously it was something that people were vehemently no on, this cracks an option in there.

The same goes with the stuff about the weave put out by Ed last month. He stated that wizards teaching themselves how to use magic in Abeir would have problems. However, the same can be said of wizards in Toril after the spellplague, but Bane of all people showed up and taught Tam the new rules of magic. If we find out that dweomerheart was kicked loose and shunted over to Abeir (along with say Helliopolis for the Mulhorandi gods and the divine domain of the Maztican deities and possibly deities from Katashaka and Anchorome and some of the others that I maybe listed above), then the gods of magic may have been easily convinced to teach wizards to adapt their magic in return for worship. I also personally put forth an idea that some of the offerings given to the gods of magic were converted into weave anchors of a sort and spread by the deities throughout the transferred lands to better protect their worshippers.

Essentially, I see it as a necessary thing for the people transferred to Abeir to have some ability to protect themselves, and also have the gods/primal spirits or whatever they go with them also protect their worshippers. It sounds like Zero has warmed up to that idea as well. I should stress, my goals aren't to have Torilians seizing territory in Abeir, but more possibly seizing territory from their fellow Torilians OR building into unoccupied territory to create civilizations where none existed previously. In the ones where they seize territory, it would be more to provide some semblance of civilization in extremely savage areas OR move into areas that were considered extremely evil already and they learn the secrets there.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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cpthero2
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USA
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Posted - 24 Mar 2020 :  20:03:01  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader sleyvas,

quote:
We have, as many have even shown here, conflicting statements about things.


Shocking these.....conflicting statements you speak of. ;) haha

quote:
Essentially, I see it as a necessary thing for the people transferred to Abeir to have some ability to protect themselves, and also have the gods/primal spirits or whatever they go with them also protect their worshippers.


Why necessary though? Sometimes things just get chewed up by the machine. It's very anti-climactic, and sad to some, but nonetheless grim reality.

quote:
I should stress, my goals aren't to have Torilians seizing territory in Abeir, but more possibly seizing territory from their fellow Torilians OR building into unoccupied territory to create civilizations where none existed previously. In the ones where they seize territory, it would be more to provide some semblance of civilization in extremely savage areas OR move into areas that were considered extremely evil already and they learn the secrets there.


Heck, I like the barbaric ideas more myself. It is more realistic to me. See who comes out on top in the ugly fight!

Best regards,


Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2441 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2020 :  22:54:49  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


This is part of why I've hated the primordial thing since they intro'ed it. We have some primordials that seem to be nothing more than somewhat more powerful elementals, others that were somehow on a power level comparable with gods, all the primordials being banished (except those who weren't!), primordials being something distinct from gods (except those who were gods), and with all of this, no clear definition on what primordials really were.

Everything we know about primordials, we have examples of the opposite.



I see it this way: both kinds of beings are gods, but they are different tribes or clans, with different origins and powers. Just like the Aesir and the Vanir from Nordic traditions. And "god" is just how mortals call them. Just a name we gave them, but we don't know if that's how they name themselves.

The gods of the Astral Sea (or plane; I prefer the sea) are gods of ethos and concepts -- they have their species' name in 4e, actually: estelars.

The primordials are the gods of the elements and physicality. It's different to revere the god of thunder (an estelar), to revere thunder itself (a primordial).

Yet people worship both kinds the same, just like kobolds revere dragons as living gods. For most mortals of the D&D-verse there is no difference between this guy that gives you power, and this other guy that gives you power. Most people of the D&D-verse don't have access to the info we readers have, and we have little access to all the info of the Realms.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 24 Mar 2020 22:56:23
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2441 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2020 :  23:40:09  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

The same goes with the stuff about the weave put out by Ed last month. He stated that wizards teaching themselves how to use magic in Abeir would have problems. However, the same can be said of wizards in Toril after the spellplague, but Bane of all people showed up and taught Tam the new rules of magic. If we find out that dweomerheart was kicked loose and shunted over to Abeir (along with say Helliopolis for the Mulhorandi gods and the divine domain of the Maztican deities and possibly deities from Katashaka and Anchorome and some of the others that I maybe listed above), then the gods of magic may have been easily convinced to teach wizards to adapt their magic in return for worship. I also personally put forth an idea that some of the offerings given to the gods of magic were converted into weave anchors of a sort and spread by the deities throughout the transferred lands to better protect their worshippers.


I guess that for getting an idea of how to work magic on Abeir, people should ask a local instead of relying in an outsider. They may be gods of magic, but they are the gods of magic of Toril, whose magic works in a really different way than that of Abeir. People should be asking the primordials how to learn to use magic there, and well, the primordials are still resentful with the gods...

This opens up a lot of possibilities beyond the cliche "Mystra (or her allies) did it".

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


Essentially, I see it as a necessary thing for the people transferred to Abeir to have some ability to protect themselves, and also have the gods/primal spirits or whatever they go with them also protect their worshippers. It sounds like Zero has warmed up to that idea as well.


Well, the way I see things is that the Torilian gods are behind enemy lines, with little to no supplies and in complete disadvantage.

While in your Realms you have Velsharoon, Leira and others going to Abeir and reshaping the lands to their whims unopposed, in my Realms they may be relegated to a really small region, trying to reshape that place to their whims (and is not working as intended), and they have dominion over that small region not because they have the power to take it for themselves, but because there is a primordial or two helping them for their own reasons (like, the Torilian gods now owe them a big one).

That said, I've always believed that the dragon gods may have had a foothold in Abeir since the Time of Dragons. In part because there is a possibility that they may be primordials (or part primordial), as Asgorath (also known as Io) is considered as a primordial in 4e (perhaps, because the primordials consider him/her one of "their tribe"?). And so, in my Realms, perhaps the primordials allow the dragon gods to be there (there is also the fact that the dragons of Abeir owned the primordials, and them may have imposed their gods as part of their victory).

But they are dragon gods. The dragons won't allow the "lesser races" to pester them, least of all their slaves. And the other gods of other worlds would be way too fearful to go to a world full of their ancient enemies to go there to help these slaves. That's why for the few mortals that know about Abeir, this is a "godless" world.


quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


In the ones where they seize territory, it would be more to provide some semblance of civilization in extremely savage areas OR move into areas that were considered extremely evil already and they learn the secrets there.


Considered evil by who...? Since when the Torilian PoV should prevail over the Abeiran?

I guess this opens a can of worms I don't want to delve into...

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 24 Mar 2020 23:42:52
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 25 Mar 2020 :  01:55:47  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Great Reader sleyvas,

quote:
We have, as many have even shown here, conflicting statements about things.


Shocking these.....conflicting statements you speak of. ;) haha

quote:
Essentially, I see it as a necessary thing for the people transferred to Abeir to have some ability to protect themselves, and also have the gods/primal spirits or whatever they go with them also protect their worshippers.


Why necessary though? Sometimes things just get chewed up by the machine. It's very anti-climactic, and sad to some, but nonetheless grim reality.

quote:
I should stress, my goals aren't to have Torilians seizing territory in Abeir, but more possibly seizing territory from their fellow Torilians OR building into unoccupied territory to create civilizations where none existed previously. In the ones where they seize territory, it would be more to provide some semblance of civilization in extremely savage areas OR move into areas that were considered extremely evil already and they learn the secrets there.


Heck, I like the barbaric ideas more myself. It is more realistic to me. See who comes out on top in the ugly fight!

Best regards,





On the necessary thing... its only to make it less boring. Sending a bunch of people over to Abeir to be oppressed by overpowered dragons and primordials isn't interesting to me.

On the civilizing thing.. its more to have an area that's "normal" for players in an area. Again, the goal isn't to have a huge swathe of territory.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe

USA
329 Posts

Posted - 25 Mar 2020 :  02:23:07  Show Profile  Visit Storyteller Hero's Homepage Send Storyteller Hero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X



That said, I've always believed that the dragon gods may have had a foothold in Abeir since the Time of Dragons. In part because there is a possibility that they may be primordials (or part primordial), as Asgorath (also known as Io) is considered as a primordial in 4e (perhaps, because the primordials consider him/her one of "their tribe"?). And so, in my Realms, perhaps the primordials allow the dragon gods to be there (there is also the fact that the dragons of Abeir owned the primordials, and them may have imposed their gods as part of their victory).

But they are dragon gods. The dragons won't allow the "lesser races" to pester them, least of all their slaves. And the other gods of other worlds would be way too fearful to go to a world full of their ancient enemies to go there to help these slaves. That's why for the few mortals that know about Abeir, this is a "godless" world.




According to Ed Greenwood, Kuyutha is revered on Abeir, but known only to sages and temple scholars on Toril.

Kuyutha is an exarch of Bahamut.

As such, there is some kind of foothold of faith in Abeir for at least one dragon god, at least indirectly.




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Edited by - Storyteller Hero on 25 Mar 2020 02:24:15
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 25 Mar 2020 :  02:32:52  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


This is part of why I've hated the primordial thing since they intro'ed it. We have some primordials that seem to be nothing more than somewhat more powerful elementals, others that were somehow on a power level comparable with gods, all the primordials being banished (except those who weren't!), primordials being something distinct from gods (except those who were gods), and with all of this, no clear definition on what primordials really were.

Everything we know about primordials, we have examples of the opposite.



I see it this way: both kinds of beings are gods, but they are different tribes or clans, with different origins and powers. Just like the Aesir and the Vanir from Nordic traditions. And "god" is just how mortals call them. Just a name we gave them, but we don't know if that's how they name themselves.

The gods of the Astral Sea (or plane; I prefer the sea) are gods of ethos and concepts -- they have their species' name in 4e, actually: estelars.

The primordials are the gods of the elements and physicality. It's different to revere the god of thunder (an estelar), to revere thunder itself (a primordial).

Yet people worship both kinds the same, just like kobolds revere dragons as living gods. For most mortals of the D&D-verse there is no difference between this guy that gives you power, and this other guy that gives you power. Most people of the D&D-verse don't have access to the info we readers have, and we have little access to all the info of the Realms.



That doesn't change the fact that the primordials were banished, except not all of them, or the fact that some of them are very clearly not gods.

Even saying they're just a different flavor of god really doesn't work when some of them are the same type of gods as the Torilian ones.

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 25 Mar 2020 :  02:35:02  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

The same goes with the stuff about the weave put out by Ed last month. He stated that wizards teaching themselves how to use magic in Abeir would have problems. However, the same can be said of wizards in Toril after the spellplague, but Bane of all people showed up and taught Tam the new rules of magic. If we find out that dweomerheart was kicked loose and shunted over to Abeir (along with say Helliopolis for the Mulhorandi gods and the divine domain of the Maztican deities and possibly deities from Katashaka and Anchorome and some of the others that I maybe listed above), then the gods of magic may have been easily convinced to teach wizards to adapt their magic in return for worship. I also personally put forth an idea that some of the offerings given to the gods of magic were converted into weave anchors of a sort and spread by the deities throughout the transferred lands to better protect their worshippers.


I guess that for getting an idea of how to work magic on Abeir, people should ask a local instead of relying in an outsider. They may be gods of magic, but they are the gods of magic of Toril, whose magic works in a really different way than that of Abeir. People should be asking the primordials how to learn to use magic there, and well, the primordials are still resentful with the gods...

This opens up a lot of possibilities beyond the cliche "Mystra (or her allies) did it".

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


Essentially, I see it as a necessary thing for the people transferred to Abeir to have some ability to protect themselves, and also have the gods/primal spirits or whatever they go with them also protect their worshippers. It sounds like Zero has warmed up to that idea as well.


Well, the way I see things is that the Torilian gods are behind enemy lines, with little to no supplies and in complete disadvantage.

While in your Realms you have Velsharoon, Leira and others going to Abeir and reshaping the lands to their whims unopposed, in my Realms they may be relegated to a really small region, trying to reshape that place to their whims (and is not working as intended), and they have dominion over that small region not because they have the power to take it for themselves, but because there is a primordial or two helping them for their own reasons (like, the Torilian gods now owe them a big one).

That said, I've always believed that the dragon gods may have had a foothold in Abeir since the Time of Dragons. In part because there is a possibility that they may be primordials (or part primordial), as Asgorath (also known as Io) is considered as a primordial in 4e (perhaps, because the primordials consider him/her one of "their tribe"?). And so, in my Realms, perhaps the primordials allow the dragon gods to be there (there is also the fact that the dragons of Abeir owned the primordials, and them may have imposed their gods as part of their victory).

But they are dragon gods. The dragons won't allow the "lesser races" to pester them, least of all their slaves. And the other gods of other worlds would be way too fearful to go to a world full of their ancient enemies to go there to help these slaves. That's why for the few mortals that know about Abeir, this is a "godless" world.


quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


In the ones where they seize territory, it would be more to provide some semblance of civilization in extremely savage areas OR move into areas that were considered extremely evil already and they learn the secrets there.


Considered evil by who...? Since when the Torilian PoV should prevail over the Abeiran?

I guess this opens a can of worms I don't want to delve into...





Hey, I'm stealing one of your ideas here. The idea that there's primordials that want to work WITH the gods. I need to think of a good reason besides "yeah, our dragons turned on us and we could use some help putting them in their place"... because I don't like that reason as written without some work.

Oh, and the "evil places" that I mention, that's literally a place in Anchorome. Its called Esh Alakar and its from City of Gold. Its some old ruins that noone wants to approach because of all the evil there. The places where they are bringing civilization too are literally Torilian places that transferred (2 places in Katashaka, 1 in Lopango, and some islands off the east coast of Osse), and its just ostensibly to give a place for a party to have normal players coming from if they don't want to play a cat person, bird person, centaur, wemic, kercpa, shatjan, tauric antelope person, tauric deer person, etc...

I have the gods in Abeir, but they are not unopposed. I was actually planning on having the entire Untheric Pantheon having appeared there again, but they end up dying fighting against dragons or primordials. Also the big thing is they're staying hidden except when they have some mission. That is the one big thing that I'm doing is having Leira working the magic of Abeir along with Mask to hide the other gods.

The general idea I have in my head is that the gods of magic go over and they want to restore Mystra (they being Savras, Leira, and Auppenser actually working together). They show up in "transferred Soorenar" in the bodies of mortals as lesser avatars, infiltrate the tower terrible to recover the phylactery of Velsharoon, and a mortal offers to allow him to use her body temporarily. Velsharoon becomes initially important because as a god of necromancy, he helps these avatars restore the spirit of some other gods to artifacts of power of said gods and then locals also take on the spirits of the gods. One of these beings may be Talos... and that could open up the whole negotiations with primordials to not kill the gods actually I guess.

By the way, I've been making a list of "gods that might have gone over and died while there". I picture them getting the Karsestone just before the spellplague (maybe Mask steals it) and having Karse give up his power to restore Mystryl's essence. Maldraedior "the Millenium Dragon" is an "almost"-god of draconic magic (dragon ascendant) as well, and I could see him getting killed. I picture the Untheric gods Utu, Ramman, Inanna, Ki, and maybe some that I can dredge up as appearing as lesser avatars and dying to protect their mortal charges. All start out in "lesser avatar" form in which they must share a body with a willing mortal, finally developing enough faith energy that they can form the equivalent of a manifestation, and some eventually building up enough power that they can actually open a conduit back to their diving domain which got anchored to Abeir. Eventually the gods of magic can reopen a path to dweomerheart while they are in manifestation form, and from there … maybe that's when they do something with Karsus and sacrifice him to restore Mystryl's essence.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
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Posted - 25 Mar 2020 :  03:21:26  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


That doesn't change the fact that the primordials were banished, except not all of them, or the fact that some of them are very clearly not gods.

Even saying they're just a different flavor of god really doesn't work when some of them are the same type of gods as the Torilian ones.



Oh, sure. If I understand the story well, this was optional. Or as optional as "you either go there or don't, but no more fighting" Ao allowed it. But some primordials chose to remain on Toril, such as Maegera the Inferno (read that 4e article about Gauntlgrym for more about this). It seems Ubtao and the Elemental Lords also decided to remain.

That's basically what happened with Aesir and the Vanir. Some Vanir went to Asgard to live with the Aesir when their war was over, but others decided to remain in Vanaheim.

Or it's just the way I see it.

quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero


As such, there is some kind of foothold of faith in Abeir for at least one dragon god, at least indirectly.




And the others may be there as well, though only Bahamut cares enough to made himself known among the slaves.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 25 Mar 2020 03:23:21
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sleyvas
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Posted - 25 Mar 2020 :  15:19:20  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, and hey Zero I just realized one of the things in the above that you said that I think might make things more palatable.

I (as in ME) want to send the gods over there to protect the mortals. I'm not saying the gods WANTED to go there to protect the mortals. Now, Ao may not have given a care and he may have LET or SENT or NOT STOPPED these gods getting sent over there. Despite him seemingly being uncaring for mortals, he DOES seem to care that mortals have gods available to them to serve them. Once the gods are there though, they're trying to build their power, hide from primordials and dragons while letting their worshippers know "I'm not dead, I can answer your prayers even if god X that you used to worship isn't here". I'm picturing them as background NPC's that we can use to keep these people alive, maybe solve some things for us as literal deus ex machina, and give us some fun stories that may result in some showing up in Abeir, being really helpful, and then sacrificing themselves to save the mortals. For instance, I literally want the Untheric goddess Ki to die during the second sundering using her power to "hold the land together" as the Shaar transfers back from Abeir to Toril. In the final stages of her death, she leaves behind a northerly extension of the Great Rift as her legs spread wider and wider until she seemingly "falls into the earth and disappears". This extension of the great rift I'm thinking to call "Ki's Cleft" and having it rich in metal and minerals and drawing gnomes, dwarves, earth genasi, and humans to the area.

Also as an aside, one thing I'm interested in promoting while in Abeir is the concept of people seeing things because that's what their faith believes. For instance, different religions have different beliefs for "how the sun crosses the sky". Some might see their god pulling it in a chariot. Others might see a god riding a golden furred boar. Two people may look in the sky and see totally opposite things based on their beliefs while in Abeir, and with the second sundering.... that stopped. For people used to seeing their god in the sky every day, this could be disconcerting. It can also explain away why some people in Abeir don't believe the gods exist, because they think these people are just crazy and making it up. So, in this concept, when Ki "disappears" creating Ki's Cleft, some Mulans instead see their god Geb having "relations" with the being known as nut and birthing the land from their union. Dwarves see it as Dumathoin and Sharindlar. Orcs may see it as Grumbar and Luthic. This may leave some wondering which deities were actually there and which were simply lies to gain worship.

Other things I'd like to promote are the gods Inanna and Ramman coming back as lesser avatars (incarnations?) that inhabit a Crintri princess (for Inanna) and a Chessentan Mulan (for Ramman) who fall in love and move to take over Akanax… such that Akanax is inhabited now by Chessentans, half elves, wood elves, centaurs, wemics, and drow all of a warlike bent and trying to form their own community.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 25 Mar 2020 :  16:04:45  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


That doesn't change the fact that the primordials were banished, except not all of them, or the fact that some of them are very clearly not gods.

Even saying they're just a different flavor of god really doesn't work when some of them are the same type of gods as the Torilian ones.



Oh, sure. If I understand the story well, this was optional. Or as optional as "you either go there or don't, but no more fighting" Ao allowed it. But some primordials chose to remain on Toril, such as Maegera the Inferno (read that 4e article about Gauntlgrym for more about this). It seems Ubtao and the Elemental Lords also decided to remain.



That still doesn't make sense, though -- if he could just say "stop fighting" and that was all it took, then the whole thing of making a second world and banishing some of them and all that was pointless.

On top of that, we still have the issue that some primordials are clearly not all that powerful -- so some are godlike, and some are just souped-up elementals.

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cpthero2
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Posted - 25 Mar 2020 :  16:11:22  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Rupert,

I concur with you here. I think Ao, had he the ability to just say stop fighting, would have stopped them. Unless....

...this situation incorporates the whole "free will" notion that is seen in a lot of religious doctrine where you can still make the wrong decisions, because it's about doing the "right" thing [whatever that means].

As to the primordials, yeah...I couldn't agree more there.

Best regads,




Higher Atlar
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sleyvas
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Posted - 25 Mar 2020 :  16:28:14  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, and another thing I'd like to promote, but not exactly sure how, is the story that Maldraedior (the Millenium Dragon of Dalath in Unther, who was a dragon ascendant) did go to Abeir along with the cultists that worship him. Powers and Pantheons has it that Set is trying to induce Maldraedior into aiding him "as a draconic god of evil magic", and since Set is a god of "evil magic" then I can see Maldraedior being helpful in possibly interpreting how magic works in Abeir.

To note, Maldraedior worshipped Kalzareinad, a draconic god of uncaring and selfish use of dragon magic (a dragon god who may have helped Sammaster make the first dracolich according to Cult of the Dragon). Kalzareinad died during the ToT and Kereska took on his portfolios (as a draconic goddess of magic). In theory this may have been because after serving as his avatar, Maldraedior TURNED from worshipping Kalzareinad during the Tot (because Maldraedior was his very last worshipper). So, picturing that he started following Kereska… and then along comes Set, who offers to help him ascend to godhood himself. Maybe like Talos and Malyk, Set hoped to absorb Maldraedior and infect the draconic pantheon.

Also to note, Dragons of Faerun has Maldraedior (via one of his disciples) involved with the cult of the dragon with a person who has uncovered an alchemical process to become a half-dragon and another process for a half-dragon to become a dracolich (a half-dragon dracolich being known as a Kaemundar according to this). Since Maldraedior is an information broker of reknown, I'd imagine he gathered both processes. Maybe Set's priesthood now has self-created Kaemundar in their numbers? Maybe these Kaemundar might be misconstrued as fellow dragonborn in Abeir? Again, throwing out ideas, just to see where they might lead.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 25 Mar 2020 :  19:12:05  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I know that RAW say that a half-dragon can become a dracolich... But I'd never allow that, in my Realms. It goes against the spirit of what a dracolich is, in my opinion.

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Zeromaru X
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Posted - 25 Mar 2020 :  21:13:55  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Maybe Set's priesthood now has self-created Kaemundar in their numbers? Maybe these Kaemundar might be misconstrued as fellow dragonborn in Abeir? Again, throwing out ideas, just to see where they might lead.



Highly unlikely. Dragonborn revere their dead ones. An undead dragonborn (or a half-dragon dracolich trying to pass as one) is something anathema to them. They will kill it on sight. You'll need a really deranged and debased dragonborn clan to accept such a thing.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...
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sleyvas
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Posted - 25 Mar 2020 :  21:55:51  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Maybe Set's priesthood now has self-created Kaemundar in their numbers? Maybe these Kaemundar might be misconstrued as fellow dragonborn in Abeir? Again, throwing out ideas, just to see where they might lead.



Highly unlikely. Dragonborn revere their dead ones. An undead dragonborn (or a half-dragon dracolich trying to pass as one) is something anathema to them. They will kill it on sight. You'll need a really deranged and debased dragonborn clan to accept such a thing.



You are right they do revere their dead. What if the Kaemundar (just have to say the name to make it stick in the brain) or "half-dragon dracolich" were to show up and help their clan kill a dragon. Just to throw out some options, what if he were to show up, claim to be a dragonborn ancestor "imbued with the power of vengeance by the primordials" and then kill some smallish dragon. If he were somewhat skeletal with the basic body shape of a half-dragon, is there anything that might make it really hard for them to pass that off (besides lack of real world knowledge of Abeir and dragonborn society mind you). Just like Toril, there are some undead that aren't evil, so I'd wonder if that isn't a possibility. Then again, they might have problems with the Eminence there, and even "good" undead may be abhorred.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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cpthero2
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Posted - 27 Mar 2020 :  06:53:50  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader sleyvas,

Ahhh, fair enough then.

To be honest though: it might be the right time for the primordials to truly become real powerhouses with the gods being terrified of going there. Good deal for them!

Best regards,




Higher Atlar
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sleyvas
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Posted - 29 Mar 2020 :  13:33:59  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Zeromarux,

Hey, I think I just hit on something that might make for an interesting twist on the whole mortals going to Abeir and being subjugated by dragons. Can you read my response in the reimagining Jhaamdath topic and spot my holes, because I'm certain I have some. Since you're more up to date on the 4e changes, it helps at times.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Zeromaru X
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Colombia
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Posted - 29 Mar 2020 :  17:53:18  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thing is, the only thing I know about Jhaamdath is that they were "Netheril but psionic", so I don't know how helpful I may be. Going to check the scroll, anyways.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...
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