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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Mar 2020 : 21:42:10
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Poll Question:
Which of these undead horrors becomes your parties nightmare?
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2020 : 18:23:07
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| I voted lich-lord just because, well, lich-lord. But I don't think this question can be answered as each intelligent undead is unique. One could argue that Larloch is 'the most intelligent undead' in the Realms. But then there are the undead from the Twisted Rune to consider. What about Velsharoon? Or any one of a dozen named and powerful undead in the world? |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
890 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2020 : 18:54:20
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| I seriously doubt zombies (dire or not) have the intelligence to cut it as wizards. From the viewpoint of a high level doomguide, morninglord or (Seven Heavens forbid) a Realms-adapted Radiant Servant of Lathander/Amaunator (using RAW in Complete Divine..ugh!), these undead would be less nightmares and more XP bonanzas. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2020 : 23:26:50
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Senior Scribe Copper Elven Vampire,
I went with demi-lich. I had too!
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Shoon_VII
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
Which of these undead horrors becomes your parties nightmare?
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2020 : 02:32:02
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| None of those options appeal to me, because the BBEG being undead is kinda overdone. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2020 : 02:53:32
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Master Rupert,
So, which one would be your choice?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
None of those options appeal to me, because the BBEG being undead is kinda overdone.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2020 : 04:01:04
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master Rupert,
So, which one would be your choice?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
None of those options appeal to me, because the BBEG being undead is kinda overdone.
I'm not picking any of them. Vampires, liches, and death knights are the only things of interest on the list... But vampires and liches are way overdone, and while death knights can be cool, I'd use one as a mid-level, maybe ranking boss, but not the BBEG.
A darakhul (from the Midgard setting) BBEG, trying to set up a community of darakhul, could be an interesting thing, if I absolutely had to pick some undead boss. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2020 : 05:27:47
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| Banelich should have been an option... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2020 : 12:13:48
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| True, a Banelich was sort of equivalent in power to an avatar of Finder (demipower?) which sort of puts that right up there with the most powerful of liches/demiliches/etc. in my opinion. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2020 : 18:12:13
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Master Rupert,
I worded my question to you very poorly. What I meant to ask was: of anything other than what was offered, what would you choose, but you just did. I just wanted to clarify that poorly worded question on my part.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master Rupert,
So, which one would be your choice?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
None of those options appeal to me, because the BBEG being undead is kinda overdone.
I'm not picking any of them. Vampires, liches, and death knights are the only things of interest on the list... But vampires and liches are way overdone, and while death knights can be cool, I'd use one as a mid-level, maybe ranking boss, but not the BBEG.
A darakhul (from the Midgard setting) BBEG, trying to set up a community of darakhul, could be an interesting thing, if I absolutely had to pick some undead boss.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2020 : 18:21:10
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Great Reader Brimstone,
Yeah, great point there. Banelich are crazy powerful. I remember they had that Voice of Maleficence ability which was pretty awesome. :)
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Banelich should have been an option...
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2020 : 22:26:42
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I guess in this case I should have put a Baelnorn Lich as well. I only have a limited number of options and I didn't want to upset the Zombie fans either. I chose Undead Werewolf Lord, for the pure, unbridled terror and rage and hate and killing frenzy such a beast could throw at a standard party, or even a higher level one. Thank "The Howling" movie for my complete fear of Werewolves as a kid.
If the undead Werewolf Lord had no class levels, it would be a machine of pure terror in itself. But give the Undead Werewolf Lord class levels and you're looking at sheer horror and certain death. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2020 : 00:30:38
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Senior Scribe Copper Elven Vampire,
Great point on that one for sure. Malar approves! haha
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
I guess in this case I should have put a Baelnorn Lich as well. I only have a limited number of options and I didn't want to upset the Zombie fans either. I chose Undead Werewolf Lord, for the pure, unbridled terror and rage and hate and killing frenzy such a beast could throw at a standard party, or even a higher level one. Thank "The Howling" movie for my complete fear of Werewolves as a kid.
If the undead Werewolf Lord had no class levels, it would be a machine of pure terror in itself. But give the Undead Werewolf Lord class levels and you're looking at sheer horror and certain death.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2020 : 02:02:12
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| I did vote Lich Lord, Banelich could fall under that! |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2020 : 02:02:56
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Great Reader Brimstone,
Were you really thinking Banelich though? ;)
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
I did vote Lich Lord, Banelich could fall under that!
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
890 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2020 : 02:12:25
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| For those who faced Acererak in the original AD&D Tomb of Horrors, you will understand my choice of demi-lich. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2020 : 02:43:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
I guess in this case I should have put a Baelnorn Lich as well. I only have a limited number of options and I didn't want to upset the Zombie fans either.
A baelnorn would not be a party's nightmare unless said party was evil and liked despoiling elven tombs. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2020 : 03:19:03
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Learned Scribe Delnyn,
Really? Over Shoon VII? I think Shoon VII would have given Acererak a run for its money.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
For those who faced Acererak in the original AD&D Tomb of Horrors, you will understand my choice of demi-lich.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2020 : 05:00:55
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Learned Scribe Delnyn,
Really? Over Shoon VII? I think Shoon VII would have given Acererak a run for its money.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
For those who faced Acererak in the original AD&D Tomb of Horrors, you will understand my choice of demi-lich.
Acererak is arguably one of the most infamous undead to ever live. Born the son of rape of a mortal woman by the balor Tarnhem, later the apprentice of Vecna himself, then almost succeeding in his scheme to become the supreme consciousness of the Negative Material Plane, puts him a lot higher in the scale of infamy than some undead ex-emperor.
Anyway, given the sheer number of epic level liches and demiliches around, the answer's pretty clear-cut. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2020 : 06:55:21
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Master LordofBones,
While I certainly agree with you that Acererak was certainly one of the most infamous undead ever, especially as an apprentice to Vecna, but his output with that power... a little milktoast for me, to be honest. Let's take a look at what he did:
- Built the Tomb of Horrors and had the slaves killed
- Killed the Nine Gods of the Forbidden City and the slaves there
- Tried to genocide the planet but didn't succeed
**Sorry, taking a quick yawn break there from that listing of Acererak**
Shoon VII
- When crime increased in his empire, Shoon VII's solution was to order that oil be poured into the sewers of each Shoon city and lit to drive out the thieves' guilds living in hiding there. Shoon did not care that these conflagrations resulted in the deaths of over three million people. Ankhapur, Calimport, Innarlith, Ithmong, and Memnon were nearly destroyed from these Great Fires in 319 DR.
- Shoon was responsible for the deaths of at least two dozen unicorns, which were sacrificed to create his most powerful magical artifacts. He even sanctioned hunts against them.
- In 355 DR, when the elves of the Snakewood tried to defend a small herd of seven unicorns from being captured and slain, Shoon VII ordered his legions to eradicate the elves. So many elves were killed that the headwaters of River Rimril turned red from blood. Two-thirds of the elves from two tribes of the forest were captured. Half of these were enslaved; on the other half, Shoon VII performed horrifying magical experiments.
- This battle occurred in the skies above Shoonach, over the slaves' city adjacent to the city center. 75,000 persons were slaughtered as a result of the careless use of magic from both parties.
So, I will admit that Acererak is cute, gets angry, and studied with tough people, but in the end Shoon VII has an impressive multi-million death toll on his hands, in addition to the other things listed. I just think in the end that Acererak is a cool demi-lich, but he just lacks the work ethic and that gumption to really get stuff done.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Learned Scribe Delnyn,
Really? Over Shoon VII? I think Shoon VII would have given Acererak a run for its money.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
For those who faced Acererak in the original AD&D Tomb of Horrors, you will understand my choice of demi-lich.
Acererak is arguably one of the most infamous undead to ever live. Born the son of rape of a mortal woman by the balor Tarnhem, later the apprentice of Vecna himself, then almost succeeding in his scheme to become the supreme consciousness of the Negative Material Plane, puts him a lot higher in the scale of infamy than some undead ex-emperor.
Anyway, given the sheer number of epic level liches and demiliches around, the answer's pretty clear-cut.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2020 : 09:49:23
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| Meh, anyone that kills nine deities is going to impress me more than someone with a larger -- but entirely indirect -- death count. Yes, he's responsible for a lot of deaths, but he didn't commit those deaths himself -- this is more a display of political power, not personal magical might. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2020 : 20:16:56
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Master Rupert,
I am definitely not impressed when (9) fakers who title themselves as gods turn out to be Archfey that I feel any of those demiliches on the list could have defeated. Sure, archfey are powerful, but a demilich is going to mop the floor with them.
I also consider power to be outcome. One on one is great in a street fight. When you command enough power to kill 3 million people.....that's power: evil as hell, and not to be approved of, but power nonetheless.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Meh, anyone that kills nine deities is going to impress me more than someone with a larger -- but entirely indirect -- death count. Yes, he's responsible for a lot of deaths, but he didn't commit those deaths himself -- this is more a display of political power, not personal magical might.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2020 : 20:22:41
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| That doesn't showcase Shoon's personal power. He was an emperor, while Acererak was an orphaned slave. In terms of accomplishments, Acererak has achieved more than Shoon ever will. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2020 : 20:32:10
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Master LordofBones,
Two people become demiliches: one beats up a bunch of uber faeries and the other is an emperor of a massive empire (one of most powerful in the world) who brought huge swaths of land such as the Shaar and more under his control.
I mean, clearly we see power in a different light, which is fine. I just look at it like this when it comes to power:
I'd rather be Ghengis Khan than Floyd Mayweather. Cool, Floyd can box and is the world champion at boxing, but what did he do with that power? How did he project it? What did he take? How did he dominate?
In this case, Floyd (Acererak) beat up some faeries and made a tomb. Cool, that has some cred. The kind of cred we see from a regional drug lord or something.
The other guy took over cultures, civilizations by beating them down like puppets. He took it all from them and made them like it. Power is what you do with it, and Acererak didn't do a whole lot with it. He tried. He tried to commit a worldwide genocide. You know what people call that? Want in one hand and crap in the other, see which one fills up faster. In the case of Acererak, I think we know.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
That doesn't showcase Shoon's personal power. He was an emperor, while Acererak was an orphaned slave. In terms of accomplishments, Acererak has achieved more than Shoon ever will.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2020 : 21:22:53
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| Yes, but again, Shoon didn't do anything personally. He had lackeys for everything. You refer to Ghengis Khan and Floyd Mayweather, and say the first was more powerful -- but drop both, unarmed, in an alley in present-day New York City, and let's see how much power the Khan has. I'll gladly lay some gold on which one I expect to walk out of there. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2020 : 21:36:56
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Master Rupert,
That's exactly why I mentioned to Master LordofBones, and I now mention to you: the three of us clearly disagree on power projection. Do I concede that Floyd Mayweather in a fist fight would wreck Ghengis Khan: of course. However, who had more of a powerful impact on the world? Who killed 1/3 of the planets population? Who caused the DNA of the world over to have traces of his DNA all throughout it? It was Ghengis Khan. To be clear, this is not aggrandizing that kind of behavior, but you can't deny the power.
I mean, if you feel that getting into a street fight is the ultimate form of power, you've clearly never been in a street fight. I boxed in the Army for three years and let me tell you: the power of world leaders, generals, and others is a hell of a lot better than my skills as a boxer ever were. lol
Aggrandizing the individual fighting capacity of a person, power does not make. Since you brought up New York (and I brought up Ghengis, etc.), I'll utilize another real world example: the U.S.
Any one person occupying the White House is just one, old person. Personally, not powerful. What our country can do sure is because the U.S. is so frickin' powerful it's almost like a fantasy story written by a 13 year old with self-esteem problems. That is power. The relevant power of one old person sitting behind a desk, personally, is irrelevant.
You can argue power projection all day long, but if all you feel is that it all boils down to a street fight to see who the winner is, I think that is a weak argument. Who has the most lasting effect? Not Floyd, but Ghengis.
Afterall..............900 years later, we're still talking about him. That's staying power.
Floyd will be forgotten in 100, tops.
I think if Acererak is looking for a job though, let him know that Shoon VII is taking apps for an empty bottle to fill with Crystal Head Vodka. Just give the address of:
4242 E. The Man Ave.
Calimshan, Calimport 8675309
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Yes, but again, Shoon didn't do anything personally. He had lackeys for everything. You refer to Ghengis Khan and Floyd Mayweather, and say the first was more powerful -- but drop both, unarmed, in an alley in present-day New York City, and let's see how much power the Khan has. I'll gladly lay some gold on which one I expect to walk out of there.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2020 : 01:33:17
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I think it's quite relevant, when we're talking about who's more powerful, to look at what they are capable of doing by themselves. You're the one who brought up the comparison.
You're talking about projecting power, as if that's all it takes to be powerful -- but if all of your accomplishments rest on a title and underlings, does that really make you powerful?
Again, the person who does impressive things entirely on his own is far more impressive than the person who relied on thousands of others to make his mark. Underlings give you power, but take them away, and there goes the power they gave.
Acererak rose to power on his own, and did a lot more on his own than Shoon VII. Yes, Shoon VII was a powerful mage -- but all of the accomplishments you cite he was only able to do because he inherited a title that gave him underlings. Without his underlings, he did far less than Acererak.
Acererak not only elevated himself to power and did more on his own than Shoon VII, he also set his sights much, much higher. He didn't bother with an empire; it was beneath him.
Acererak took on gods. Shoon VII couldn't kill a dragon.
Oh, and talking about someone centuries later as proof of their power? We're still talking about Robin Hood, and he was the leader of a band of dudes hanging out in the forest -- if he was even real. We're still talking about Jack the Ripper, and he was one dude with less than a dozen kills to his name. Fame does not equal power. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2020 : 02:11:42
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| Shoon isn't exactly spectacularly impressive even among undead conquerors. Vecna was so feared that he returned as a god from the sheer terror he inspired even when dead. |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2020 : 18:24:42
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master Rupert,
I am definitely not impressed when (9) fakers who title themselves as gods turn out to be Archfey that I feel any of those demiliches on the list could have defeated. Sure, archfey are powerful, but a demilich is going to mop the floor with them.
I also consider power to be outcome. One on one is great in a street fight. When you command enough power to kill 3 million people.....that's power: evil as hell, and not to be approved of, but power nonetheless.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Meh, anyone that kills nine deities is going to impress me more than someone with a larger -- but entirely indirect -- death count. Yes, he's responsible for a lot of deaths, but he didn't commit those deaths himself -- this is more a display of political power, not personal magical might.
I certainly doubt a Demi-Lich is more powerful than a Arch-Fey. A LeShay alone would more than likely destroy a Demi-Lich, phylactery and all. And a generic LeShay is not an Arch-Fey. I've never heard of Shoon 7 or his genocide of the elves of the snakewood, but to slay 9 Arch-Fey (whom are obviously powerful enough to play themselves off as gods) seems ludicrous. Even Larloch would be hard pressed to do this. I doubt Karsus could even do that. 1, 2, maybe 4 Arch-Fey die, but 9??
I'm very intrigued by this. Also, Unicorns aren't roaming the forests of Faerun in heards, they are truly a rare encounter. I would imagine divine intervention would occur if a group of unicorns and an entire forest of elves were slaughtered and tortured. Are the forest deities of Faerun sleeping during this time? They sent no divine champions to defend the slaughter in the Snakewood?
I assume they were Green elves? (Wild elves). If that is the case, then I would imagine many clerics and druids and rangers and scouts. Likely in service to Fenmarel Mestarine or Solonor Thelandira. Two clans of green elves with powerful heroes, (Not to mention several unicorns together are powerful and magical unto themselves.) fighting for their survival and homeland is a wickedly powerful thing to destroy or enslave and torture. I'm sure the Snakewood has Crossroads and Fey mounds. Almost all existing forests in Faerun do. I'm sure there was at least 1 powerful Hierophant in each clan. Also, what about Treants and Fey creatures? Did they fight for the Unicorns as well? Powerful clerics and druids can summon powerful celestials and fey to battle with them.
Where can I read more about this? |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2066 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2020 : 19:14:23
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| The Story of Shoon VII is told in Lands of Intrigue and Empires of the Shining Sea, both 2e products, by the illustrious Mr. Schend. It builds off Ed's original work in the old gray box set (and Dragon #mumble before that AJA!) in the write-up of the Tome of the Unicorn. |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2020 : 19:52:47
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
The Story of Shoon VII is told in Lands of Intrigue and Empires of the Shining Sea, both 2e products, by the illustrious Mr. Schend. It builds off Ed's original work in the old gray box set (and Dragon #mumble before that AJA!) in the write-up of the Tome of the Unicorn.
Am I wrong in my assumption? |
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Topic |
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The most powerful intelligent undead
