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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Mar 2020 : 00:12:13
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Should municipalities, districts, regions, city-states, and nation-states have policies on how the dead are dealt with? I was thinking about this through the lens of public health as well as dealing with "bad" (whatever that means) who create undead, etc.
Imagine if a PR campaign done at the behest of Kelevmor's faithful pushed for national policy changes to cremate the dead instead of bury? Those laws in Cormyr that say you can't resurrect nobility? Pointless. The dreaded necromancers that are hitting up those tossed corpses at the fringes of poor hamlet's and villages for their next recruitment drive for his undead army: wrecked. Wasted space in real estate expensive places like Waterdeep? Solved.
Those are just a few things that got me thinking about how it really makes no sense that the dead are not cremated everywhere knowing that there are those who will come for those corpses to make use of them.
The Church of Kelemvor could make a mint off of this, by being the official faithful going around taking care of the deal for people. It helps save land, ensures that people don't get raised illegally, and that people don't get turned into undead. This increases GDP by more laborers being around working the fields, smithing weapons, etc., to name but a few examples.
What do you all feel about this? Do you feel it would be revolutionary in a positive way, or be a negative?
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2020 : 04:18:14
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It's already been stated that a lot of folks are buried by local temples, with precautions in place to make sure the dead stay that way.
Real estate is not really a concern in most areas of the Realms, since there's so much open space. Just put a graveyard a few miles outside town, pay a local temple or two to run it, and you're done.
And Waterdeep has its own nifty alternative, also: extradimensional crypts. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2020 : 05:33:18
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Master Rupert,
quote:
It's already been stated that a lot of folks are buried by local temples, with precautions in place to make sure the dead stay that way.
Sure, I completely get that. I've read the same thing. I'm just saying, what a PR thing to bolster the value of the faith of Kelemvor even more by effectively running a scare campaign, but providing the alternative, which is total body destruction, so they definitely go on to the afterlife. I mean, that would be great for their faith!
quote:
Real estate is not really a concern in most areas of the Realms, since there's so much open space. Just put a graveyard a few miles outside town, pay a local temple or two to run it, and you're done.
As to real estate, in most of the Realms you are correct: no dispute there. However, in light of how a lot of different governments work in the Realms, i.e. Amn having its territory taken during the Sothsillian War, they clearly don't work to maximize the utility of their real assets. Which means, that is why you see certain cities such as Athkatla, Waterdeep, and others become regional dynamo's. So, in those cities, real estate does become very price elastic. I mean, the volume of property stays the same while demand is maintained or rises while prices rise.
The burying of corpses outside of town and paying a temple to run it is assuming that the local GDP can afford it. Pre-capitalist societies were not exactly efficient or efficacious with their business practices. The problem with burying the corpses outside of town though, is even if you have someone running it, it's still a magnet for a necromancer to come by and get some workers.
quote:
And Waterdeep has its own nifty alternative, also: extradimensional crypts.
That just opens, for me, a whole other can of works. However, we're in the right scroll, since we're talking economics here.
Consider the cost structure of that operation. Sure, the real asset is an infinite plane for the dead. However, look at what is likely an extensive amount of workers to oversee the new plane, i.e. wizards to maintain the portals, etc., constant trips by friends and family to go and visit them. Building of the needs of people going to visit this looks like it would be expensive, and that is something that would just raise taxes on citizens: most citizens don't like to pay more. I've never seen anything that really delves into taxation in Waterdeep, but I am sure that would be a huge problem for that policy-wise.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's already been stated that a lot of folks are buried by local temples, with precautions in place to make sure the dead stay that way.
Real estate is not really a concern in most areas of the Realms, since there's so much open space. Just put a graveyard a few miles outside town, pay a local temple or two to run it, and you're done.
And Waterdeep has its own nifty alternative, also: extradimensional crypts.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2020 : 05:33:33
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The "Ceremony" spell in AD&D had a funerary rite. "Eternal Rest" would ensure the deceased's soul would receive safe passage to the afterlife and the deceased's body could never be reanimated. Presumably under the eternally vigilant aegis of the divine agency.
Personally, I'd just immerse the entire body in holy water.
Historically, monotheistic rites commonly involved some sort of burial or preservation (so the body would retain vital integrity and form for some sort of afterlife) while henotheistic rites typically involved some sort of cremation or destruction (to release the intangible soul from the bindings of base and tainted worldly flesh) and animistic rites simply tended to discard corpses (returned to nature to infuse an ongoing life-death-rebirth cycle).
Countless variations, of course, many quite profound or elaborate. But my point is that whenever cultures with vastly different viewpoints collide there is great dismay and horror by each when they see their dead being "violated" by the "barbaric" beliefs of another.
Do all the peoples of the Realms abide by a universal funeral practice, a universal dictate from a single multifaceted Death God?
Maybe. Since divine powers certainly exist in the Realms, supernatural interventions, miracles, and manifestations are available to anyone able to pay a clergy. The Death God is absolutely real.
But I think maybe not. Since it seems evident to me that Realmsfolk have as many different interpretations of what to do with their dead as Earthfolk do.
There are examples in D&D lore where undeath is considered a desirable, venerated, or at least a useful thing. Why waste perfectly good bodies which could become menials, guards, soldiers, etc? The Dustmen faction in Planescape pays the living quite generously for (eventual but inevitable) claim to their indentured corpses. Vampires are treated something like celebrity royalty in some settings. Even the Realms has liches, baelnorn, ghosts, banshees, and shades who are well-regarded by the living.
I also doubt laws will affect evil necromancers in any event. If they can't find a ready source of dead bodies to convert into undead bodies then they'll first just have to find a ready source of living bodies to convert into dead bodies. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 04 Mar 2020 06:06:41 |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2020 : 05:59:44
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Great Reader Ayrik,
quote:
The "Ceremony" spell in AD&D had a funerary rite. "Eternal Rest" would ensure the deceased's soul would receive safe passage to the afterlife and the deceased's body could never be reanimated.
That is an easy get around with just a caster level check. If you look at the demographics of a city of 'x' size, they rarely have the demographics pointing to a high level caster, which means that for a 5th level spell, your talking at least 9th, but not much higher. That would mean a CLC of 20? Easy.
quote:
Personally, I'd just immerse the entire body in holy water.
Why not just burn it? It seems like it would be very valuable to do so since after the body is completely turned to ashes and throws in a stream, lake, etc. you can't raise, resurrect, etc.
quote:
Historically, monotheistic rites commonly involved some form of burial or preservation (so the body would retain vital integrity for some sort of afterlife) while henotheistic rites typically involved some form of cremation or destruction (to release the soul from the bindings of base flesh) and animistic rites simply tended to discard corpses (returned to nature to complete a life-death-rebirth cycle). Countless variations, of course, but my point is that whenever cultures with vastly different viewpoints collided there would be great dismay and horror by each when they saw their dead being "violated" by another.
Great values point you make here! The collision of different cultures leads to disagreements, and then, more graves. ;)
quote:
Do all the peoples of the Realms abide by a universal funeral practice, a universal dictate from a single multifaceted Death God? Maybe. Since divine powers certainly exist in the Realms, supernatural interventions, miracles, and manifestations are available to anyone able to pay a clergy. The Death God is absolutely real. But I think maybe not. Since it seems evident to me that Realmsfolk have as many different interpretations of what to do with their dead as Earthfolk do.
Oh, I agree with you that there are a great many interpretations of what to do with the dead. I was just focusing on Kelemvor with it all as a hypothetical for that PR campaign I mentioned earlier.
quote:
I also doubt laws will affect evil necromancers in any event.
Agreed that the laws are not going to help. That's why they are criminals after all. ;) I also agree that they'll go after some innocents.
Best regards, and thanks for the continuing discourse! :)
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The "Ceremony" spell in AD&D had a funerary rite. "Eternal Rest" would ensure the deceased's soul would receive safe passage to the afterlife and the deceased's body could never be reanimated.
Personally, I'd just immerse the entire body in holy water.
Historically, monotheistic rites commonly involved some form of burial or preservation (so the body would retain vital integrity for some sort of afterlife) while henotheistic rites typically involved some form of cremation or destruction (to release the soul from the bindings of base flesh) and animistic rites simply tended to discard corpses (returned to nature to complete a life-death-rebirth cycle).
Countless variations, of course, but my point is that whenever cultures with vastly different viewpoints collided there would be great dismay and horror by each when they saw their dead being "violated" by another.
Do all the peoples of the Realms abide by a universal funeral practice, a universal dictate from a single multifaceted Death God?
Maybe. Since divine powers certainly exist in the Realms, supernatural interventions, miracles, and manifestations are available to anyone able to pay a clergy. The Death God is absolutely real.
But I think maybe not. Since it seems evident to me that Realmsfolk have as many different interpretations of what to do with their dead as Earthfolk do.
I also doubt laws will affect evil necromancers in any event. If they can't find a ready source of dead bodies to convert into undead bodies then they'll first just have to find a ready source of living bodies to convert into dead bodies.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2020 : 11:31:54
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| Incorporeal undead are a thing, you realize? |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2020 : 17:53:42
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Master LordofBones,
I do indeed. I'm sorry, I believe I am missing the implication. Would you mind elaborating more? :)
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Incorporeal undead are a thing, you realize?
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2020 : 01:07:46
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I'm guessing the implication is that incorporeal undead (ghosts, spectres, wraiths, apparitions, shadows, phantoms, etc) can be "animated" without any physical remains. So disposing of physical remains wouldn't be useful for necro-proofing deceased loved ones.
Although incorporeal undead also aren't crawling with corporeal worms, maggots, parasites, and infections. Contact with these undeads is often dangerous or lethal to the living. But they (usually) cannot infect the living with contagion and disease. So they're a health hazard - especially if each victim they consume is added to their number and they are able to multiply without restraint - but they aren't a source of communicable plagues and pandemics. |
[/Ayrik] |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2020 : 05:42:23
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Great Reader Ayrik,
Ah, that makes sense. Sure, I can see how incorporeal undead would still be a problem. I don't feel that, if what you said is correct about Master LordofBones point (my momma told me not to assume), it has to be a false dichotomy though (this is again focusing on the assumption about Master LordofBones being what he meant). Just because incorporeal undead would potentially need a different approach doesn't mandate that the approach mentioned above couldn't be utilized for the corporeal undead.
Though, it is a great point to mention about the incorporeal undead. If a Kelemvor undead PR campaign went on, I wonder how they would tackle regarding the incorporeal undead?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I'm guessing the implication is that incorporeal undead (ghosts, spectres, wraiths, apparitions, shadows, phantoms, etc) can be "animated" without any physical remains. So disposing of physical remains wouldn't be useful for necro-proofing deceased loved ones.
Although incorporeal undead also aren't crawling with corporeal worms, maggots, parasites, and infections. Contact with these undeads is often dangerous or lethal to the living. But they (usually) cannot infect the living with contagion and disease. So they're a health hazard - especially if each victim they consume is added to their number and they are able to multiply without restraint - but they aren't a source of communicable plagues and pandemics.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Economics of the Deceased - to Bury or Cremate
