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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1739 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2020 :  19:42:50  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I'm curious what you all feel about the seeming, overall lack of a presence in a lot of countries for protecting their border areas. A perfect example is when the ogre magi Sothillis and Cyrvisnea led their army to conquer a region of Amn. If you read, the excuse was because of the secession effort of Riatavin to join with Tethyr. With a capital like Athkatla, all of the riches that they have in Amn, a military that is decent, and outposts throughout their region, one would think that the action would have been known to be arriving on their doorstep before an army was beating down the doors, literally.

What thoughts do you all have on why nation-states, city-states, and other governmental bodies seemingly don't implement rather common sense military and government reforms to ensure that their territory is not so easily or profoundly overrun? There are examples of where this doesn't happen: Thay and Halruaa. In Halruaa, the Arkaiun barbarians tried a few times but were obliterated by the Haluraan wizards when they arrived. They knew it was coming, met them, and annihilated them.

In Thay, they have the same divination based approach as well to learning of attacks, and then rousing the correct kinetic and/or magical response to it.

Many places that have the means though, don't implement the means, and it frankly makes not a lot of sense to me. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

Best regards,


Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring

cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1739 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2020 :  19:49:17  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
On the freedom front, in this case freedom of movement, I am surprised that crossing borders as a random individual is so very easy in most nations. With the exception of countries such as Cormyr as one example who regularly patrol their roads with great consistency, that is. Cormyr also has their, what amounts to an immigration check point, upon entering, because the volume and frequency of patrols means you are going to be intercepted regularly. If you don't have your peacebonds on, and/or papers (if you are an adventuring band) then things will take a different turn for you and/or your friends.

It does seem that modern, real world freedoms are seemingly overlayed on top of many countries in a way that moving about and doing ones business is easy. This really isn't how it was in most medieval societies as those who had power wanted to maintain it, and having random groups of people moving about could threaten that.

Does anyone here utilize a process to enforce border control laws/entry into a country? If not, why not? If so, why and how do you do it for what countrie(s)?

Best regards,




Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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keftiu
Senior Scribe

475 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2020 :  19:51:15  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I’m a little hurried right now, so I’ll have a proper reply later, but I had to ask: why is this thread titled about “freedom and politics” when it’s about military oeganization?

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1739 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2020 :  20:22:33  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe keftiu,

Thanks for the question. I'm sure you'll get to the rest of your reply when you get more time.

I basically took the reverse engineer approach. All matters of policy at a governmental level, that for example affect freedom, politics, etc., always end in a stick if things go too far. I started with an example of a clear military invasion where civilian lives were lost, Amn had no idea the attack was coming, and generally the government (in my opinion) failed powerfully to protect their sovereign land, their citizens and their freedoms. The political situation was inadequate. So, looking at the stick that was applied to Amn by way of Sothillis, et alia, one can look backwards and ask: what political issues led to this complete failure of Amn protecting itself? What considerations should have/could have been undertaken to help protect Amn from that invasion, if any? If not, why?

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

I’m a little hurried right now, so I’ll have a proper reply later, but I had to ask: why is this thread titled about “freedom and politics” when it’s about military oeganization?


Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34140 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2020 :  22:18:38  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Short version: Most nations don't have immediate neighbors that they need to worry about. If they were to try guarding their borders, they'd have outposts in the middle of nowhere, with guards bored out of their skulls most of the time. It's a waste of money, resources, and manpower to guard a border that no one is even near.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1739 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2020 :  23:49:11  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Rupert,

Thank you kindly good sir for the reply.

Well, let's take a look at the list of aggressive neighbors:

  • Thay & Aglarond
  • Myth Drannor & Hillsfar/Zhentarim
  • Tymanther & Unther
  • Multiple City-States from the Moonsea War that are still bordering one another: Hillsfar, Phlan, Zhentil Keep, Sembia, & Mulvaunt vs. Mulmaster
  • The Second Inter-Dale War: Scardale attacks Battledale, Featherdale, Harrowdale, Deepingdale, and Mistledale
  • Sessrendale War: another Dale's war with Dale's against Dale's
  • Sothsillian War: Ogre Magi & Beasts attack Amn
  • The Trollwars
  • Twelfth Seros War
  • Untheric Crusade: Unther and Mulhorand
  • War of Gold and Gloom: Gold vs. Gray Dwarves
  • War of the Silver Marches


That looks like a pretty good list of people right next door to one another, who never had a good explanation of how they politically handled their military posture, and as such, got wrecked.

The Amnian invasion during the Sothsillian War was not only horrific but extremely embarrassing. That should have been avoided, and is a good example of how Amn should have had those border guards, etc. to help.

Another one is the War of the Silver Marches. Ugly, and you can see the lack of intelligence on a proactive level to prepare.

You can go through that list, which is all modern stuff with a little bit of a push back in time on the Sessrendale War which was mid-13th century.

The point is: kinetic wars are fought, with magic for sure, but you don't hear about how countries prep for them, and deal with all that stuff. Seems like a lot of holes to me.

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Short version: Most nations don't have immediate neighbors that they need to worry about. If they were to try guarding their borders, they'd have outposts in the middle of nowhere, with guards bored out of their skulls most of the time. It's a waste of money, resources, and manpower to guard a border that no one is even near.


Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
394 Posts

Posted - 04 Mar 2020 :  01:56:25  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A strong military has a better chance of successfully pulling a coup. One should never assume the military necessarily respects civilian authority. Also, many rulers are understandably looking over their shoulders to treachery from their underlings. Even in the ostensibly lawful realm of Cormyr, Vangerdahast not only had War Wizards spying on nobles and outlanders, but on Purple Dragons, Suzail courtiers and even on their fellow War Wizards. That left the Stonelands open to goblin infestations, an acceptable risk for the Crown.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34140 Posts

Posted - 04 Mar 2020 :  04:13:49  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Rupert,

Thank you kindly good sir for the reply.

Well, let's take a look at the list of aggressive neighbors:

  • Thay & Aglarond
  • Myth Drannor & Hillsfar/Zhentarim
  • Tymanther & Unther
  • Multiple City-States from the Moonsea War that are still bordering one another: Hillsfar, Phlan, Zhentil Keep, Sembia, & Mulvaunt vs. Mulmaster
  • The Second Inter-Dale War: Scardale attacks Battledale, Featherdale, Harrowdale, Deepingdale, and Mistledale
  • Sessrendale War: another Dale's war with Dale's against Dale's
  • Sothsillian War: Ogre Magi & Beasts attack Amn
  • The Trollwars
  • Twelfth Seros War
  • Untheric Crusade: Unther and Mulhorand
  • War of Gold and Gloom: Gold vs. Gray Dwarves
  • War of the Silver Marches


That looks like a pretty good list of people right next door to one another, who never had a good explanation of how they politically handled their military posture, and as such, got wrecked.

The Amnian invasion during the Sothsillian War was not only horrific but extremely embarrassing. That should have been avoided, and is a good example of how Amn should have had those border guards, etc. to help.

Another one is the War of the Silver Marches. Ugly, and you can see the lack of intelligence on a proactive level to prepare.

You can go through that list, which is all modern stuff with a little bit of a push back in time on the Sessrendale War which was mid-13th century.

The point is: kinetic wars are fought, with magic for sure, but you don't hear about how countries prep for them, and deal with all that stuff. Seems like a lot of holes to me.



Most of those places are not right next to each other, though. They are closer to each other than to others, but they're not glaring at each other from across a well-defined border.

And that's my point. The Realms has a lot of wide open, sparsely populated areas. What a citystate or nation claims, the actual area under their control, and the area that they'll actually fight to defend are often wildly different things.

Every inch they defend means troops, materials to support and shelter those troops, means of getting troops to their assigned areas and means of getting supplies to them. And the further out from home you defend, the bigger the logistical challenge of it all.

So in a fantasy setting, with what is essentially unclaimed land between nations, they're not going to be guarding every single inch. They're going to be guarding the critical areas -- geographic areas that serve as defensive barriers, areas of critical economic/material import, and the major population centers. They're not going to worry about some border on a map, especially when their resources are better spent closer to home.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1739 Posts

Posted - 04 Mar 2020 :  06:23:44  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Seeker Delnyn,

quote:
A strong military has a better chance of successfully pulling a coup.


I agree with that, especially in medieval times. Is the implication from you Seeker Delnyn that having a kinetic force is bad, or just something to be wary of?

quote:
One should never assume the military necessarily respects civilian authority.


Agreed again. I am assuming (sorry Mom, I did it) you mean to just be wary of the military force, but still have it?

quote:
Also, many rulers are understandably looking over their shoulders to treachery from their underlings. Even in the ostensibly lawful realm of Cormyr, Vangerdahast not only had War Wizards spying on nobles and outlanders, but on Purple Dragons, Suzail courtiers and even on their fellow War Wizards. That left the Stonelands open to goblin infestations, an acceptable risk for the Crown.


Agreed again. Medieval times were definitely quite different than the absolute obedience you get from modern forces like from our country, Seeker Delnyn.

Your point about the Stonelands is actually a really great one. This is Cormyr sizing up the threat and deciding it is acceptable, but I would gather they have a military presence that patrols for intelligence gathering and skirmishes to ward off beasts. That is the point of that kinetic force.

Thank you for the great discourse. I look forward to more!

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

A strong military has a better chance of successfully pulling a coup. One should never assume the military necessarily respects civilian authority. Also, many rulers are understandably looking over their shoulders to treachery from their underlings. Even in the ostensibly lawful realm of Cormyr, Vangerdahast not only had War Wizards spying on nobles and outlanders, but on Purple Dragons, Suzail courtiers and even on their fellow War Wizards. That left the Stonelands open to goblin infestations, an acceptable risk for the Crown.


Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1739 Posts

Posted - 04 Mar 2020 :  18:39:34  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Rupert,

My apologies for the slow response time! I hope the day finds you well! :)

quote:
Most of those places are not right next to each other, though. They are closer to each other than to others, but they're not glaring at each other from across a well-defined border.


I am definitely of the mind that this discussion could very well be addressed the easiest, by getting some things figured out first.

1) What do you consider, specifically, i.e. distances, geographic features or otherwise, that would make places "...right next to each other..." for the purposes of the military component of this discussion?

2) When you say, "...but they're not glaring at each other from across a well-defined border.", are you implying that there is a certain distance, perhaps direct eyesight over several meters, that would meet the criteria of ascertaining whether a military threat is imminent?

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Rupert,

Thank you kindly good sir for the reply.

Well, let's take a look at the list of aggressive neighbors:

  • Thay & Aglarond
  • Myth Drannor & Hillsfar/Zhentarim
  • Tymanther & Unther
  • Multiple City-States from the Moonsea War that are still bordering one another: Hillsfar, Phlan, Zhentil Keep, Sembia, & Mulvaunt vs. Mulmaster
  • The Second Inter-Dale War: Scardale attacks Battledale, Featherdale, Harrowdale, Deepingdale, and Mistledale
  • Sessrendale War: another Dale's war with Dale's against Dale's
  • Sothsillian War: Ogre Magi & Beasts attack Amn
  • The Trollwars
  • Twelfth Seros War
  • Untheric Crusade: Unther and Mulhorand
  • War of Gold and Gloom: Gold vs. Gray Dwarves
  • War of the Silver Marches


That looks like a pretty good list of people right next door to one another, who never had a good explanation of how they politically handled their military posture, and as such, got wrecked.

The Amnian invasion during the Sothsillian War was not only horrific but extremely embarrassing. That should have been avoided, and is a good example of how Amn should have had those border guards, etc. to help.

Another one is the War of the Silver Marches. Ugly, and you can see the lack of intelligence on a proactive level to prepare.

You can go through that list, which is all modern stuff with a little bit of a push back in time on the Sessrendale War which was mid-13th century.

The point is: kinetic wars are fought, with magic for sure, but you don't hear about how countries prep for them, and deal with all that stuff. Seems like a lot of holes to me.



Most of those places are not right next to each other, though. They are closer to each other than to others, but they're not glaring at each other from across a well-defined border.

And that's my point. The Realms has a lot of wide open, sparsely populated areas. What a citystate or nation claims, the actual area under their control, and the area that they'll actually fight to defend are often wildly different things.

Every inch they defend means troops, materials to support and shelter those troops, means of getting troops to their assigned areas and means of getting supplies to them. And the further out from home you defend, the bigger the logistical challenge of it all.

So in a fantasy setting, with what is essentially unclaimed land between nations, they're not going to be guarding every single inch. They're going to be guarding the critical areas -- geographic areas that serve as defensive barriers, areas of critical economic/material import, and the major population centers. They're not going to worry about some border on a map, especially when their resources are better spent closer to home.



Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
394 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2020 :  01:18:35  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Seeker Delnyn,

quote:
A strong military has a better chance of successfully pulling a coup.


I agree with that, especially in medieval times. Is the implication from you Seeker Delnyn that having a kinetic force is bad, or just something to be wary of?

quote:
One should never assume the military necessarily respects civilian authority.


Agreed again. I am assuming (sorry Mom, I did it) you mean to just be wary of the military force, but still have it?

quote:
Also, many rulers are understandably looking over their shoulders to treachery from their underlings. Even in the ostensibly lawful realm of Cormyr, Vangerdahast not only had War Wizards spying on nobles and outlanders, but on Purple Dragons, Suzail courtiers and even on their fellow War Wizards. That left the Stonelands open to goblin infestations, an acceptable risk for the Crown.


Agreed again. Medieval times were definitely quite different than the absolute obedience you get from modern forces like from our country, Seeker Delnyn.

Your point about the Stonelands is actually a really great one. This is Cormyr sizing up the threat and deciding it is acceptable, but I would gather they have a military presence that patrols for intelligence gathering and skirmishes to ward off beasts. That is the point of that kinetic force.

Thank you for the great discourse. I look forward to more!

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

A strong military has a better chance of successfully pulling a coup. One should never assume the military necessarily respects civilian authority. Also, many rulers are understandably looking over their shoulders to treachery from their underlings. Even in the ostensibly lawful realm of Cormyr, Vangerdahast not only had War Wizards spying on nobles and outlanders, but on Purple Dragons, Suzail courtiers and even on their fellow War Wizards. That left the Stonelands open to goblin infestations, an acceptable risk for the Crown.





Wariness of one's own military is necessary, but not sufficient. the standing military should be just strong enough to repel considered threats that occur at some threshold frequency or more often.
If the military repels the considered threats too easily, that is a red flag the government devoted too many resources to its military.
Furthermore, other lands-even if they do not share a border-will prepare their own measures/precautions against a nation/kingdom/state whose military is shown to significantly exceed its capacity to repel invaders. An overly strong military tends to brand a government as eager to forcibly expand its borders.

Considering the Stonelands example, yes, Purple Dragons may patrol a section for a time if an unusual, uncommon threat rears its head. With a lack of intel, however, the Crown risks squandering its resources and troops on a danger a patrol of Purple Dragons cannot handle. Those Purple Dragons could have been better deployed keeping the peace in places known to harbor anti-Crown sentiments.

Hiring mercenaries or better yet adventurers(!!) to deal with intermittent and potentially epic threats will free the Purple Dragons for the perennial problems like potential rebellions from Arabel or Marsember.
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1739 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2020 :  07:20:35  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Seeker Delnyn,

Thank you for your reply! :) Please find my rebuttal below.

quote:
Wariness of one's own military is necessary, but not sufficient. the standing military should be just strong enough to repel considered threats that occur at some threshold frequency or more often. If the military repels the considered threats too easily, that is a red flag the government devoted too many resources to its military.


Now, I am assuming (sorry Mom, I did it again) you are speaking only from a medieval, kinetic military force perspective here? I know being a retired Infantryman from our military here in the U.S., who has been directly involved in front line operations that are trained for, implemented, and reviewed for improvement of operations, that is just not how it works. That isn't how it works at all. Hence, I'll return to my previous assumption.

Presupposed on the notion that you are only speaking of a medieval, kinetic force, how exactly would operations being undertaken to assess all enemy opposing forces in any one given theater, such that you could just have a perfect victory at all times, while not exposing the home government to a coup? What period of time is sufficient? How do you maintain readiness for a larger force if all you are prepared for is the current one that meets it head to head and just perfectly matches it (consider the Sothsillian War here where Amn was beaten horridly)? How much of a reduction in forces is expected at perfectly matched battles, that would then need to be restocked? If a larger force does come along, do you draft inferior individuals for military service, or do you maintain a stronger military force that is always trained and ready to go so that the efficacy of operations is vastly superior to a draft army and more importantly the enemy force? If an enemy force sees your host nation building up a larger force, albeit comprised of draftee's, would that as well not invoke concern as you articulated would be the case?

Additionally, how does a panoply of threats with different compositions fit into the situation of never having more military than you need? Example:

There is a nation-state, we'll call it 'x', who has three active threats within striking distance. However, they all have different compositions of their kinetic forces. One is certainly top dog, the second one moderate in its composition, and the third one lagging behind the others. By your example, if the first force (the strongest one) is defeated, but defeated just barely, you would have insufficient forces to contend with the other two fronts of attackers. How would you contend with that? What kind of intelligence would it take to ensure that your familiarity with your enemies forces was so complete that you could perfectly match, with a guarantee of success (because with such intelligence, who would work to guarantee anything short of a victory), your force portfolio?

quote:
Furthermore, other lands-even if they do not share a border-will prepare their own measures/precautions against a nation/kingdom/state whose military is shown to significantly exceed its capacity to repel invaders.


Absolutely agree with this. However, I can tell you with certainty though, that no nation-state has ever built their military to ensure it was only good enough to defeat 'x' rival by just enough, so they wouldn't get disposed of in a coup later. There are always way more than a single 'x' rival.

A nation that is smart will always have enough of a military to defeat its assessed enemies, but as well, push beyond. It is not in fact about repelling invaders, it is about repelling invaders, following them back and ripping their faces off with entrenching tools. You defeat them, take their stuff and break it, so they can't do that again. Zero sum outcomes breed belief that the victor just got lucky, or isn't as skilled as they thought. The point I am getting at here is a nation-state smartly prepares for vastly more challenging situations.

Need I say more than when Yamun Khahan on Ches 19 - 20 of 1359DR (FR12 The Horde Campaign, pp.17-21) utterly annihilated the Khazari at Manass? They didn't see it coming? You're implication of appropriate intelligence to avoid something that for example Khazari had to deal with is just not realistic. That just is not how kinetic warfare functions. Trust me, we all wish it did, because dang that would be awesome.

quote:
An overly strong military tends to brand a government as eager to forcibly expand its borders.


Some might think that, but at the same time, an "overly strong military" is also a hell of a deterrent. Let's take a Realms example: Haluraa.

They've been invaded once before they setup their overwhelming military. They've had other attempted attacks on them later as well, but beat them back harshly. Let's take a look:

  • 553 DR Year of the Gnashing Tooth - The Durpari cities of Sandrun, Pharsul, and Morvar are sacked by the forces of King Reinhar I of Dambrath, who then invades the coast of Halruaa and occupies Mithel, Galdel, and Zalasuu.
  • 585 DR Year of the Ogling Beholder - A fleet of Dambrathan galleys attempts to sail into the channel leading to Lake Halruaa and conquer Halagard. Devastating magic launched from both
    shore and skyships sinks almost every invading ship.
  • 973 DR Year of the Emptied Lair - A horde of half-drow shadow marauders rides from Dambrath through the Nath Pass to raid towns in Halruaa, sparking a series of skirmishes between the two countries that lasts four years.
  • 1260 DR Year of the Broken Blade - Battle of Lapendrar: Halacar of Aglarond launches an invasion of Thay, advancing
    along the Lapendrar. The Red Wizards [1248, 1323] destroy his army. — Lapaliiya [1147, 1371] attempts to invade Halruaa through the Talath Pass and is repulsed. (GHotR)


There overwhelming forces have prevented invasion on every occasion. The only contact with the enemy that has been made have been skirmishes with Drow from Dambrath, who have been beaten back by their clear probing attempts.

quote:
Considering the Stonelands example, yes, Purple Dragons may patrol a section for a time if an unusual, uncommon threat rears its head.


Yes, but it is fair to assume in light of the Tuigan Horde War that King Azoun IV had a perfect matching for anymore. He had a force that could crush anything that comes out of the west, or anywhere else for that matter.

quote:
With a lack of intel, however, the Crown risks squandering its resources and troops on a danger a patrol of Purple Dragons cannot handle.


Well, that assumed there is a lack of intel. I can't say one way or another that there is a lack of intel. Do you have any sourcing for the state of Cormyrian intel operations? I would imagine that Vangerdehast and the War Wizards of Cormyr have that intel locked down well, but that is just my guess.

quote:
Hiring mercenaries or better yet adventurers(!!) to deal with intermittent and potentially epic threats will free the Purple Dragons for the perennial problems like potential rebellions from Arabel or Marsember.


Mercenaries (which is really all adventurers are, let's be real) are sensible para-military forces to use for certain jobs. However, efficacy is a real issue there, i.e. Blackwater with the U.S. government. That didn't turn out all that well I would like to throw out there as an example relative to this situation. Mercenaries are usually not the guard the roads kind of people. They are looking for high risk, high reward scenarios: they are a horrible hammer but get the job done.

Epic threats that require a small team of specialists to confront and remove the threat is perfect for mercenaries (adventurers).

I look forward to your rebuttal! :)

Best regards,






quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Seeker Delnyn,

quote:
A strong military has a better chance of successfully pulling a coup.


I agree with that, especially in medieval times. Is the implication from you Seeker Delnyn that having a kinetic force is bad, or just something to be wary of?

quote:
One should never assume the military necessarily respects civilian authority.


Agreed again. I am assuming (sorry Mom, I did it) you mean to just be wary of the military force, but still have it?

quote:
Also, many rulers are understandably looking over their shoulders to treachery from their underlings. Even in the ostensibly lawful realm of Cormyr, Vangerdahast not only had War Wizards spying on nobles and outlanders, but on Purple Dragons, Suzail courtiers and even on their fellow War Wizards. That left the Stonelands open to goblin infestations, an acceptable risk for the Crown.


Agreed again. Medieval times were definitely quite different than the absolute obedience you get from modern forces like from our country, Seeker Delnyn.

Your point about the Stonelands is actually a really great one. This is Cormyr sizing up the threat and deciding it is acceptable, but I would gather they have a military presence that patrols for intelligence gathering and skirmishes to ward off beasts. That is the point of that kinetic force.

Thank you for the great discourse. I look forward to more!

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

A strong military has a better chance of successfully pulling a coup. One should never assume the military necessarily respects civilian authority. Also, many rulers are understandably looking over their shoulders to treachery from their underlings. Even in the ostensibly lawful realm of Cormyr, Vangerdahast not only had War Wizards spying on nobles and outlanders, but on Purple Dragons, Suzail courtiers and even on their fellow War Wizards. That left the Stonelands open to goblin infestations, an acceptable risk for the Crown.





Wariness of one's own military is necessary, but not sufficient. the standing military should be just strong enough to repel considered threats that occur at some threshold frequency or more often.
If the military repels the considered threats too easily, that is a red flag the government devoted too many resources to its military.
Furthermore, other lands-even if they do not share a border-will prepare their own measures/precautions against a nation/kingdom/state whose military is shown to significantly exceed its capacity to repel invaders. An overly strong military tends to brand a government as eager to forcibly expand its borders.

Considering the Stonelands example, yes, Purple Dragons may patrol a section for a time if an unusual, uncommon threat rears its head. With a lack of intel, however, the Crown risks squandering its resources and troops on a danger a patrol of Purple Dragons cannot handle. Those Purple Dragons could have been better deployed keeping the peace in places known to harbor anti-Crown sentiments.

Hiring mercenaries or better yet adventurers(!!) to deal with intermittent and potentially epic threats will free the Purple Dragons for the perennial problems like potential rebellions from Arabel or Marsember.



Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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SaMoCon
Learned Scribe

USA
291 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2020 :  05:21:10  Show Profile Send SaMoCon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am simply amazed.

Nobody has considered the OPs reasonable suggestion of the use of scouts as anything less than using the creme de la creme of the nation's military? Scouts, the rangers from which the D&D class Ranger is the pinnacle, have existed for all nations and civilizations that have existed throughout time in our own world. Only a fraction of these were professional soldiers. Many were local citizens that ranged far out on their own expeditions as trappers, hunters, foragers, herders, or just out of self-preservation to check up on the area.

Government types would reward these individuals for bringing credible... oh, what's that word... "intelligence" of something amiss on the border that might need watching. Or (Heaven forfend!) a response that might use "valuable resources." In some cases, this works to the ADVANTAGE of fractured & intrigue filled courts as some lords vie for the right to seek out a glorious threat to burnish their credentials or curry favor, other lords push pernicious rivals to settle this matter for which they can claim credit or at least have these thorns out of their side for days to weeks at a time, and still more to argue over which is right or wrong for moving the remaining resource piles. But I digress... Checking up on reports brought by the citizens that something strange is afoot on the border IS something governments do as a matter of course, unless they have a specific reason not to do so. The FR is chock-o-block full of reasons to send investigators if not actually putting the nation on alert

The push back the OP got... I am still shocked by reading this because the responses were not reasonable. Given the world, given the dire threats that slither upon or fly over or dig through the Forgotten Realms, the humanoid civilizations are woefully powerless unless gathered into mighty armies aptly supported by capable spell casters to repel these threats. That gathering takes time and a quick enemy would just overpower lesser resistance before that force could be mustered. We cannot adequately empathize with the people of this fictional world whose existence can be horrifically ended by a monster that can smash their homes into kindling within seconds to devour all its inhabitants, or pass through the walls to drain out their life force, or any countless other incredible things beyond our reckoning to coexist with. Alien threats inhabit the FR that would snuff out the law-keeper races if they had the power to do so.

Why would the nations of Faerun not have, at a minimum: patrols through wilderness areas surrounding settlements, checkpoints at passes & crossroads, and watches looking across lands from which trouble might come? Why would the same nations have only one type of force at its disposal for gathering intelligence when it, ostensibly, has trade with its neighbors (local & foreign merchants), a percentage of its population that earns a living from the frontier wildlands, & local law enforcers that function as a paramilitary unit? And this is before we start applying magic! Before anyone can start by saying "Well, they would counter that by..." the effect is still the same. People go out but they don't come back - everyone knows that is a RED FLAG OF WARNING! Anything that can keep a large force from being detected even after it has passed on from an area is nigh unstoppable anyway and would probably require the intervention of a deity or some other deus ex machina. Otherwise, all these things I mentioned and countless others I have not will either foretell or reveal proof of a threat such as: animals disappearing from their regular habitats, resources depleted in the area, signs & spoor of passing, lingering scents, an abnormal drop in travelers, etc... Even a small farming hamlet will have an inkling something is coming their way before it arrives.

I don't think that what the OP has said or what I have added are at all unreasonable.

Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for.
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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1739 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2020 :  08:30:46  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe SaMoCon,

I appreciate that you enjoyed reading the posts I put out. I'm glad you saw the vector that my points were on as I was discussing the issue.

So, do you do similar things in your Realms?

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon

I am simply amazed.

Nobody has considered the OPs reasonable suggestion of the use of scouts as anything less than using the creme de la creme of the nation's military? Scouts, the rangers from which the D&D class Ranger is the pinnacle, have existed for all nations and civilizations that have existed throughout time in our own world. Only a fraction of these were professional soldiers. Many were local citizens that ranged far out on their own expeditions as trappers, hunters, foragers, herders, or just out of self-preservation to check up on the area.

Government types would reward these individuals for bringing credible... oh, what's that word... "intelligence" of something amiss on the border that might need watching. Or (Heaven forfend!) a response that might use "valuable resources." In some cases, this works to the ADVANTAGE of fractured & intrigue filled courts as some lords vie for the right to seek out a glorious threat to burnish their credentials or curry favor, other lords push pernicious rivals to settle this matter for which they can claim credit or at least have these thorns out of their side for days to weeks at a time, and still more to argue over which is right or wrong for moving the remaining resource piles. But I digress... Checking up on reports brought by the citizens that something strange is afoot on the border IS something governments do as a matter of course, unless they have a specific reason not to do so. The FR is chock-o-block full of reasons to send investigators if not actually putting the nation on alert

The push back the OP got... I am still shocked by reading this because the responses were not reasonable. Given the world, given the dire threats that slither upon or fly over or dig through the Forgotten Realms, the humanoid civilizations are woefully powerless unless gathered into mighty armies aptly supported by capable spell casters to repel these threats. That gathering takes time and a quick enemy would just overpower lesser resistance before that force could be mustered. We cannot adequately empathize with the people of this fictional world whose existence can be horrifically ended by a monster that can smash their homes into kindling within seconds to devour all its inhabitants, or pass through the walls to drain out their life force, or any countless other incredible things beyond our reckoning to coexist with. Alien threats inhabit the FR that would snuff out the law-keeper races if they had the power to do so.

Why would the nations of Faerun not have, at a minimum: patrols through wilderness areas surrounding settlements, checkpoints at passes & crossroads, and watches looking across lands from which trouble might come? Why would the same nations have only one type of force at its disposal for gathering intelligence when it, ostensibly, has trade with its neighbors (local & foreign merchants), a percentage of its population that earns a living from the frontier wildlands, & local law enforcers that function as a paramilitary unit? And this is before we start applying magic! Before anyone can start by saying "Well, they would counter that by..." the effect is still the same. People go out but they don't come back - everyone knows that is a RED FLAG OF WARNING! Anything that can keep a large force from being detected even after it has passed on from an area is nigh unstoppable anyway and would probably require the intervention of a deity or some other deus ex machina. Otherwise, all these things I mentioned and countless others I have not will either foretell or reveal proof of a threat such as: animals disappearing from their regular habitats, resources depleted in the area, signs & spoor of passing, lingering scents, an abnormal drop in travelers, etc... Even a small farming hamlet will have an inkling something is coming their way before it arrives.

I don't think that what the OP has said or what I have added are at all unreasonable.


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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
394 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2020 :  14:08:10  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The following is not a rebuttal, but a clarification of what I was addressing in the last section of the OP quoted below:

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2


Many places that have the means though, don't implement the means, and it frankly makes not a lot of sense to me. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

Best regards,



I failed to make clear I was trying to take the POV of governments such as the Council of Six. The points you brought up and reinforced by Ayrik, et. al. I personally endorse. That said, this was one of those times I had to go against my own opinions.
In contrition -D
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe

USA
394 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2020 :  14:23:13  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
On a related note, I still have to go through the thread of Monetary Policies. There has to be some enormous fascinating overlap between this thread and monetary policy.

War on the enemy's currency? Sounds like a viable option.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34140 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2020 :  14:46:42  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon

I am simply amazed.

Nobody has considered the OPs reasonable suggestion of the use of scouts as anything less than using the creme de la creme of the nation's military? Scouts, the rangers from which the D&D class Ranger is the pinnacle, have existed for all nations and civilizations that have existed throughout time in our own world. Only a fraction of these were professional soldiers. Many were local citizens that ranged far out on their own expeditions as trappers, hunters, foragers, herders, or just out of self-preservation to check up on the area.

Government types would reward these individuals for bringing credible... oh, what's that word... "intelligence" of something amiss on the border that might need watching. Or (Heaven forfend!) a response that might use "valuable resources." In some cases, this works to the ADVANTAGE of fractured & intrigue filled courts as some lords vie for the right to seek out a glorious threat to burnish their credentials or curry favor, other lords push pernicious rivals to settle this matter for which they can claim credit or at least have these thorns out of their side for days to weeks at a time, and still more to argue over which is right or wrong for moving the remaining resource piles. But I digress... Checking up on reports brought by the citizens that something strange is afoot on the border IS something governments do as a matter of course, unless they have a specific reason not to do so. The FR is chock-o-block full of reasons to send investigators if not actually putting the nation on alert

The push back the OP got... I am still shocked by reading this because the responses were not reasonable. Given the world, given the dire threats that slither upon or fly over or dig through the Forgotten Realms, the humanoid civilizations are woefully powerless unless gathered into mighty armies aptly supported by capable spell casters to repel these threats. That gathering takes time and a quick enemy would just overpower lesser resistance before that force could be mustered. We cannot adequately empathize with the people of this fictional world whose existence can be horrifically ended by a monster that can smash their homes into kindling within seconds to devour all its inhabitants, or pass through the walls to drain out their life force, or any countless other incredible things beyond our reckoning to coexist with. Alien threats inhabit the FR that would snuff out the law-keeper races if they had the power to do so.

Why would the nations of Faerun not have, at a minimum: patrols through wilderness areas surrounding settlements, checkpoints at passes & crossroads, and watches looking across lands from which trouble might come? Why would the same nations have only one type of force at its disposal for gathering intelligence when it, ostensibly, has trade with its neighbors (local & foreign merchants), a percentage of its population that earns a living from the frontier wildlands, & local law enforcers that function as a paramilitary unit? And this is before we start applying magic! Before anyone can start by saying "Well, they would counter that by..." the effect is still the same. People go out but they don't come back - everyone knows that is a RED FLAG OF WARNING! Anything that can keep a large force from being detected even after it has passed on from an area is nigh unstoppable anyway and would probably require the intervention of a deity or some other deus ex machina. Otherwise, all these things I mentioned and countless others I have not will either foretell or reveal proof of a threat such as: animals disappearing from their regular habitats, resources depleted in the area, signs & spoor of passing, lingering scents, an abnormal drop in travelers, etc... Even a small farming hamlet will have an inkling something is coming their way before it arrives.

I don't think that what the OP has said or what I have added are at all unreasonable.



My point was that nations aren't going to heavily fortify their borders if there isn't an active threat that necessitates it. That's not unreasonable.

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cpthero2
Master of Realmslore

USA
1739 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2020 :  16:30:24  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Seeker Delnyn,

I appreciate the clarification: thank you!

I think that is fantastic that you take the logical approach and just go with whatever appears to be correct. That is the intellectual approach. I do that as well when confronted with a rational argument that has substance backed by objective, reasoned, and verifiable evidence.

It is great to have more people like you here!

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

The following is not a rebuttal, but a clarification of what I was addressing in the last section of the OP quoted below:

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2


Many places that have the means though, don't implement the means, and it frankly makes not a lot of sense to me. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

Best regards,



I failed to make clear I was trying to take the POV of governments such as the Council of Six. The points you brought up and reinforced by Ayrik, et. al. I personally endorse. That said, this was one of those times I had to go against my own opinions.
In contrition -D


Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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SaMoCon
Learned Scribe

USA
291 Posts

Posted - 09 Mar 2020 :  07:08:41  Show Profile Send SaMoCon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

My point was that nations aren't going to heavily fortify their borders if there isn't an active threat that necessitates it. That's not unreasonable.


I'll accept your clarification about heavy fortifications as the gist of your original position. The fact that you made the post as a gainsay for doing anything at all, that leads me to believe you did not think that heavy fortifications were even feasible, let alone that there are equally effective alternatives. How many nations have fortified their borders with armies standing on their borders in RL? There are a few that have done so constructing great defensive works like Antonine & Hadrian's Wall of Britannia, Wall of the Arabs in South Mesopotamia, the Great Wall of Gorgan & the Wall of Tammisha in Hyrcania, and all the fortifications & runs of walls collectively known as the Great Wall of China. There are more but it would take too long to list the more obscure ones as well as the modern ones. So this has been done multiple times in history to the present for something less scary than inhuman beasts that would actually eat people (anthrophagy is a common trait for D&D monsters).

You are correct that the practice is expensive limiting its use to prosperous or mass enslaving nations that are wearied by dealing with raiders that cannot be militarily defeated through a foreign campaign. The cost effective solution for this expensive problem is to have overlapping layers of screening by cheaper non-combatants, (in)frequent patrols, local bureaucrats commanding paramilitary/security forces, armed checkpoints, and fortified positions at natural choke points. These are not likely to stop an invading force, as expected by the planners, but to discover & slow down incursions so the armies demobilized in home bases have time to deploy & meet reported threats. Nations also tend to put their borders behind natural terrain boundaries that would hamper if not deter crossing movements. They don't simply leave a power vacuum between the choice of a full army on war footing & nothing... unless that nation has a weak government rife with corruption & incompetence that borders on or is treasonous in sympathizing with or welcoming new masters (recent example Iraq & the ISIL debacle in 2014). The OP specifically asked why not "implement rather common sense military and government reforms" from the get go.

I get that you are against the idea of Faerun's nations having any fortified borders when it is far easier and cheaper to build walls around their cities (something which FR lore calls out for protecting the people from the great orc hordes that have periodically swept through multiple regions). But the OP used the example of a mostly unsophisticated army of kobolds, goblins, hill giants, and ogres that marched unchecked through populated areas & seized military fortifications of arguably the 2nd most powerful nation of western Faerun in terms of combined economic & military muscle. Apart from the horrific act of Amn writing off tens if not hundreds of thousands of its captured citizens to be forever under the yoke of the invaders & ceding the lost territory as a "here there be dragons" area on the map, what would they do to prevent the gross failures that lead to this bloody fiasco from happening again?

The 2nd largest city (Murann) with 80k citizens & a 3k soldier army, a large city (Esmereltan) of 35K citizens with a castle, a mountain pass city (Imnescar) of 17K citizens, a crossroads town (Trademeet) of 6k citizens, "several" Amnian watchtowers in the foothills of the Small Teeth, and the military Fort Ishla, were all either taken or put under seige in a complete surprise campaign force march of 300 miles across rivers & mountains requiring months to do? This was a force that had been assembled within the nation's borders over the course of 14 years! How was this a surprise? Why could no one respond effectively even on a local level? Hundreds of thousands of people were in the path of that war machine that the lore says numbered less than 3K and as a result up to a third of the population would have been displaced or lost during that five year war (which should have resulted in famine & extreme economic hardship across the region beyond Amn's borders, but that natural consequence of conflict wasn't taken up by the writers at all). The series of monumental blunders and willful acts of malevolence or callousness to make this happen would be so egregious that the population would never again trust its government to be able to do anything to protect them which should result in mass disaffection, emigrations, or rebellion... unless there are demonstrable reforms that can show the seriousness of the government to defend the nation & its people.

So, since inaction is demonstrably unreasonable as are the arguments against taking action, what do the governments do?

Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
9738 Posts

Posted - 09 Mar 2020 :  17:13:02  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Rupert,

Thank you kindly good sir for the reply.

Well, let's take a look at the list of aggressive neighbors:

[list]
  • Thay & Aglarond




  • Just to add here. Thay & Aglarond, Rashemen, the hordelands (they were invaded by them via the mountain passes), Mulhorand

    Mulhorand also had aggressors all around in the form of Thay and Unther, but also in the form of "countries" still held to be "part" of Mulhorand

    Unther was also aggressive with its neighbors in nearly all directions.

    That whole region of the realms differs a lot from the western realms and the north which are generally peaceful with their neighbors.

    Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

    Phillip aka Sleyvas
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    cpthero2
    Master of Realmslore

    USA
    1739 Posts

    Posted - 10 Mar 2020 :  00:40:30  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    Learned Scribe Delnyn,

    Ahh, well, no sweat, but I very much appreciate your thoroughness and clarification! :) I've quite enjoyed your comments and overall approach to the argumentation!

    Best regards as always,




    quote:
    Originally posted by Delnyn

    The following is not a rebuttal, but a clarification of what I was addressing in the last section of the OP quoted below:

    quote:
    Originally posted by cpthero2


    Many places that have the means though, don't implement the means, and it frankly makes not a lot of sense to me. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

    Best regards,



    I failed to make clear I was trying to take the POV of governments such as the Council of Six. The points you brought up and reinforced by Ayrik, et. al. I personally endorse. That said, this was one of those times I had to go against my own opinions.
    In contrition -D


    Higher Atlar
    Spirit Soaring
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    cpthero2
    Master of Realmslore

    USA
    1739 Posts

    Posted - 10 Mar 2020 :  00:42:34  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    Learned Scribe Delnyn,

    I've seen you over there thus far, but please do feel free to jump back in and we can get really hit that rather unexplored angle of the Realms more! I am very fascinated by that material!

    Best regards,





    quote:
    Originally posted by Delnyn

    On a related note, I still have to go through the thread of Monetary Policies. There has to be some enormous fascinating overlap between this thread and monetary policy.

    War on the enemy's currency? Sounds like a viable option.



    Higher Atlar
    Spirit Soaring
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    cpthero2
    Master of Realmslore

    USA
    1739 Posts

    Posted - 10 Mar 2020 :  00:47:40  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    Learned Scribe SaMoCon,

    Fantastic delivery and points made! I agree. The Realms could really use a face lift on the different stages of nation building through the whole life cycle of governmental and societal development of their infrastructure and what that means for domestic and international policy. It doesn't have to be portrayed in such a staid manner, but rather, approach it from that perspective and get some more fun levels for game play in there for modules, adventures, AP's, and more! :)

    This could add a whole new layer to the Realms that has just been MIA from day one and could really make it more relatable in ways it currently is not.

    By the way, your RL references were great analogies! I have to do it though: Maginot Line for the fail! haha

    Best regards,





    quote:
    Originally posted by SaMoCon

    quote:
    Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

    My point was that nations aren't going to heavily fortify their borders if there isn't an active threat that necessitates it. That's not unreasonable.


    I'll accept your clarification about heavy fortifications as the gist of your original position. The fact that you made the post as a gainsay for doing anything at all, that leads me to believe you did not think that heavy fortifications were even feasible, let alone that there are equally effective alternatives. How many nations have fortified their borders with armies standing on their borders in RL? There are a few that have done so constructing great defensive works like Antonine & Hadrian's Wall of Britannia, Wall of the Arabs in South Mesopotamia, the Great Wall of Gorgan & the Wall of Tammisha in Hyrcania, and all the fortifications & runs of walls collectively known as the Great Wall of China. There are more but it would take too long to list the more obscure ones as well as the modern ones. So this has been done multiple times in history to the present for something less scary than inhuman beasts that would actually eat people (anthrophagy is a common trait for D&D monsters).

    You are correct that the practice is expensive limiting its use to prosperous or mass enslaving nations that are wearied by dealing with raiders that cannot be militarily defeated through a foreign campaign. The cost effective solution for this expensive problem is to have overlapping layers of screening by cheaper non-combatants, (in)frequent patrols, local bureaucrats commanding paramilitary/security forces, armed checkpoints, and fortified positions at natural choke points. These are not likely to stop an invading force, as expected by the planners, but to discover & slow down incursions so the armies demobilized in home bases have time to deploy & meet reported threats. Nations also tend to put their borders behind natural terrain boundaries that would hamper if not deter crossing movements. They don't simply leave a power vacuum between the choice of a full army on war footing & nothing... unless that nation has a weak government rife with corruption & incompetence that borders on or is treasonous in sympathizing with or welcoming new masters (recent example Iraq & the ISIL debacle in 2014). The OP specifically asked why not "implement rather common sense military and government reforms" from the get go.

    I get that you are against the idea of Faerun's nations having any fortified borders when it is far easier and cheaper to build walls around their cities (something which FR lore calls out for protecting the people from the great orc hordes that have periodically swept through multiple regions). But the OP used the example of a mostly unsophisticated army of kobolds, goblins, hill giants, and ogres that marched unchecked through populated areas & seized military fortifications of arguably the 2nd most powerful nation of western Faerun in terms of combined economic & military muscle. Apart from the horrific act of Amn writing off tens if not hundreds of thousands of its captured citizens to be forever under the yoke of the invaders & ceding the lost territory as a "here there be dragons" area on the map, what would they do to prevent the gross failures that lead to this bloody fiasco from happening again?

    The 2nd largest city (Murann) with 80k citizens & a 3k soldier army, a large city (Esmereltan) of 35K citizens with a castle, a mountain pass city (Imnescar) of 17K citizens, a crossroads town (Trademeet) of 6k citizens, "several" Amnian watchtowers in the foothills of the Small Teeth, and the military Fort Ishla, were all either taken or put under seige in a complete surprise campaign force march of 300 miles across rivers & mountains requiring months to do? This was a force that had been assembled within the nation's borders over the course of 14 years! How was this a surprise? Why could no one respond effectively even on a local level? Hundreds of thousands of people were in the path of that war machine that the lore says numbered less than 3K and as a result up to a third of the population would have been displaced or lost during that five year war (which should have resulted in famine & extreme economic hardship across the region beyond Amn's borders, but that natural consequence of conflict wasn't taken up by the writers at all). The series of monumental blunders and willful acts of malevolence or callousness to make this happen would be so egregious that the population would never again trust its government to be able to do anything to protect them which should result in mass disaffection, emigrations, or rebellion... unless there are demonstrable reforms that can show the seriousness of the government to defend the nation & its people.

    So, since inaction is demonstrably unreasonable as are the arguments against taking action, what do the governments do?


    Higher Atlar
    Spirit Soaring
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    cpthero2
    Master of Realmslore

    USA
    1739 Posts

    Posted - 10 Mar 2020 :  00:50:50  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    Great Reader sleyvas,

    A very valid point: thanks! My intent on posting those examples was to acknowledge that those abutting other nations had a force vector on which to operate and as such did pose a threat that was real, or plausible enough for people to sensibly push for ardent defenses.

    Master Rupert made a good point though as well in acknowledging that knowing what constitutes a legitimate threat and what "close" means is sensible. I was using the political map of the Realms with those nice bubbles around the regions to show what would likely constitute a threat from a neighboring area.

    Best regards,




    quote:
    Originally posted by sleyvas

    quote:
    Originally posted by cpthero2

    Master Rupert,

    Thank you kindly good sir for the reply.

    Well, let's take a look at the list of aggressive neighbors:

    [list]
  • Thay & Aglarond




  • Just to add here. Thay & Aglarond, Rashemen, the hordelands (they were invaded by them via the mountain passes), Mulhorand

    Mulhorand also had aggressors all around in the form of Thay and Unther, but also in the form of "countries" still held to be "part" of Mulhorand

    Unther was also aggressive with its neighbors in nearly all directions.

    That whole region of the realms differs a lot from the western realms and the north which are generally peaceful with their neighbors.


    Higher Atlar
    Spirit Soaring
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    cpthero2
    Master of Realmslore

    USA
    1739 Posts

    Posted - 23 Oct 2020 :  04:19:05  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    Learned Scribe Delnyn,

    I am glad you did get in over there. I'd love to hear from you on that last question I asked of you! :)

    Best regards,



    Higher Atlar
    Spirit Soaring
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    cpthero2
    Master of Realmslore

    USA
    1739 Posts

    Posted - 07 Nov 2020 :  00:20:47  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
    Learned Scribe SaMoCon,

    I wanted to reengage here about your final question:

    quote:
    So, since inaction is demonstrably unreasonable as are the arguments against taking action, what do the governments do?



    What do you think the governments should do, predicated upon the other argumentative perspectives? I am curious what your devil's advocacy plays out as here. ;)

    Best regards,



    Higher Atlar
    Spirit Soaring
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