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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Feb 2020 : 17:28:03
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So, opening the floor to just some general discussion for how to use some of the concepts that have been put forth and possibly put a spin on them.
First,
What is steelsky and what do we know of it? It formed around Abeir during the first sundering. Its steel (platinum?) colored. It is an actual substance, because dragons ingest it somehow to get prophetic dreams. Its also supposedly created by a dawn titan who was turned on by his draconic mount, and its further powered by the spirits of those who resist the draconic masters of Abeir. After Abeir is split from Toril, "the stars in the night sky change" as noted by the Sarrukh (and the stars are actual portals to the plane of radiance on the crystal sphere shell).
SUPPOSITIONS: The stars change because the dawn titan drew on the power of the plane of radiance to create steelsky around Abeir. Steelsky protects Abeir from the Tearfall, which is a rain of asteroids that also likely contain dragon eggs. These asteroids also make Toril more inherently magical than Abeir as they also serve as a form of weave anchor. This is somewhat represented by the story of Selune, Mystryl, and Shar. Its also somewhat mirrored in the story of Bahamut and Tiamat's formation when the dragon "primordial" Asgorath the World Shaper is killed. Possible links between Asgorath and Arambar (the titan that creates steelsky).
Dragonborn? What's their origin (we're given several). Well, we know just prior to the spellplague, in the old Empires humans were enacting rituals of Bahamut (the platinum dragon) to transform themselves into dragonborn. Just a few years later, the old empires are transferred between worlds and other dragonborn that were in Abeir suddenly appear on Toril.
SUPPOSITION: The origins of dragonborn on Abeir have ties to long ago when the human creator race was active. Perhaps many humans long ago had actually learned and enacted a ritual to transform themselves magically into a "new" race known as Dragonborn. Perhaps they even served Asgorath or Bahamut or something.
Dragons came about after the Tearfall? Untrue. The Dawn Titans used "dragon mounts" who turned on them during the Sundering. So, dragons were around before the sundering and during the time of the Sarrukh.
SUPPOSITION: What's meant by "dragon mount". Upon initial thought we picture these dawn titans "riding" the dragons. However, Arambar was supposedly the size of a mountain, so his dragon would have to be BIGGER. This is certainly possible (we have the dragon wall in Kara-Tur). However, what if they were "riding" dragons in a different way. By that I mean what if they were "possessing" dragons in some form like avatars. Maybe somehow the dragons found some way to throw off the shackles of the dawn titans that were controlling them.
Selune had lit a planetary body on fire to warm Toril after the "sun" had been destroyed. The Ice Moon Zotha & Crystal Sun Zotha were destroyed during the Sundering (believe that name was used in both). Then came the tearfall. On Abeir, a primordial tyrant named Karshimis rules Shyr from the "citadel of burning ice". Interestingly, "Shyr" would be very near where "Shaar" is, and we've also noted some other interesting correlations of that name to the goddess.
SUPPOSITIONS: So, Selune at some point after the other "sun" was snuffed out lit one of Toril's moons on fire. It was some kind of fire in balance with the power of ice, and thus the idea that it was both a "crystal" sun and an "ice moon". Some portion of this does appear on Abeir, in the form of "burning ice", and the Primordial Karshimis makes the Citadel of Burning Ice from this "artifact". Perhaps the "radiation" affects of this Citadel are what make all the humans in Shyr into Genasi (or maybe Karshimis mated with humans, or something similar).
The Imaskari stole humans from another world low on magic. Later, when these humans are desperate to give worship to saviors, the "Mulan Gods" show up in the form of "manifestations". If one looks closely at the Mulan gods (especially the Untheric ones), they have strong ties to dragons. In fact, both Tiamat and Bahamut have ties to these gods. During the Orcgate wars, both of these "gods" are killed. However, so are not one... but two... gods of the sun (Ra and the Untheric god of the sun). The death of these sun gods involves Talos if one believes the idea that somehow Talos and Gruumsh are linked (personal aside, my only way I would accept this is if Talos sponsored Gruumsh into the world in hopes of drawing divine energy by creating a "body" for him in the form of a manifestation to bypass the Imaskari Godswall). The Imaskari, in order to fight the "Mulan Gods" get a powerful being of destruction called Pandorym and separate "it" into parts. One of the "parts" of Pandorym appears to be something like a sphere of annihilation. Entropy is a "sentient" sphere of annihilation also known as a godswallower, and in 4e is revealed to be a primordial. When the spellplague happens the humans of these lands and their cities transfer to Abeir, and after the Second Sundering they come back. Also, the lands of the old empires have several draconic beings that specifically are becoming powerful with divine energy.
SUPPOSITION: The Imaskari went to Abeir, and not earth, to steal the humans that they would enslave. The Mulan gods are in fact "dawn titans". The Imaskari Godswall was meant to stop dawn titans using the paths the Imaskari themselves used from transferring from Abeir to Toril. The Mulan gods came to Toril in "Manifestation" form with the aid of Ptah from Abeir because they were desperate for worship energy. Talos is also a "dawn titan" of some sort, and he helped sponsor Gruumsh into the world in hopes of gaining divine devotion from the orcs... possibly hoping to "consume"/"swallow" Gruumsh as he has done other beings that he's sponsored to divinity in Toril. Talos, Entropy, and Pandorym are somehow entwined. Talos was involved with the Orcgate affair (possibly even working with Thayd) because Thayd had somehow found some way to contact him. Afterward, Talos proceeded to destroy/absorb other similar entities throughout Faerun (Kozah, Bhaelros... possibly another dawn titan with a "draconic" mount). When the spellplague happened, Talos disappeared because he is a dawn titan as well.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2020 : 02:20:02
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
First,
What is steelsky and what do we know of it? It formed around Abeir during the first sundering. Its steel (platinum?) colored. It is an actual substance, because dragons ingest it somehow to get prophetic dreams. Its also supposedly created by a dawn titan who was turned on by his draconic mount, and its further powered by the spirits of those who resist the draconic masters of Abeir. After Abeir is split from Toril, "the stars in the night sky change" as noted by the Sarrukh (and the stars are actual portals to the plane of radiance on the crystal sphere shell).
From the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide a Steelsky liberator is someone who's sworn a vow to free those still enslaved by dragons and to vigilantly defend free lands from the great wyrms. The description goes further that these liberators draw power from an ancient divine blessing granted to the mortals who suffered under dragons long ago.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
SUPPOSITIONS: The stars change because the dawn titan drew on the power of the plane of radiance to create steelsky around Abeir. Steelsky protects Abeir from the Tearfall, which is a rain of asteroids that also likely contain dragon eggs. These asteroids also make Toril more inherently magical than Abeir as they also serve as a form of weave anchor. This is somewhat represented by the story of Selune, Mystryl, and Shar. Its also somewhat mirrored in the story of Bahamut and Tiamat's formation when the dragon "primordial" Asgorath the World Shaper is killed. Possible links between Asgorath and Arambar (the titan that creates steelsky).
A boon, blessing, or some passed-down heritage by blood or location grants these who've traditionally fought against draconic tyranny and tyranny in general (this applies to oppressive organizations and deities like Bane and the Zhentarim). This sounds more appropriate considering the requirements of these Liberators need only be of certain races (Genasi, Dragonborn, half-orcs, and humans).
To me, it's intentionally left vague to be used how one sees fit for their campaign. An actual mantle of Steelsky is conceptually a really cool idea that I like. I could also see some spells drawn from both the weave and maybe Steelsky that grant protection from dragonfire or give a recipient magical "scales" as armor - there's various 3.5 spells and 4e powers that mimic this effect. Considering also that the Steelsky Liberator's abilities are all Divine in nature means it's magic.
Another idea is that those who've died under such oppressive conditions from the lands ruled by Dragons and just tyranny in general lend a spiritual element to these wards and powers. One power - Liberator's Blow - states that "The spirits of generations of slavers who've chose to fight and die free guide your righteous blade" shows me that they're present during such battle, maybe lending aid to these warriors of freedom. You could also look at supplements like Ghostwalker or take the concept from the Eternal Blade (a prestige class for elves in the Tome of Battle: Book of 9 Swords) that draws from the past knowledge and guidance of those who've come before them.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Dragonborn? What's their origin (we're given several). Well, we know just prior to the spellplague, in the old Empires humans were enacting rituals of Bahamut (the platinum dragon) to transform themselves into dragonborn. Just a few years later, the old empires are transferred between worlds and other dragonborn that were in Abeir suddenly appear on Toril.
It's possible and rather likely that other cultures were utilizing this ritual too (as its not restricted to only Humans). I'd assume that there were probably a large swath of various races in Damara who've made the change as Gareth Dragonsbane brought back with him the Tree-Gem, which Bahamut had given back to them as a sign of his covenant to protect Damara from demons. The Tree-Gem brought renewed interest from non-dragons in the worship of Bahamut as a god, and as he gained new followers, and he was able to restore his deific status as a lesser deity once again.
Dragonborn brought from Abeir are different in some regards, not having knowledge of being a previous race, but still having all of Bahamut's blessings (breath weapons, flight, immune to fear, etc.) but with all the experiences of fighting off their draconic oppressors.
Lastly, we have Dragonkin. These humanoid creatures (described in Monsters of Faerūn) are found in wild tribes or serving human masters and don't appear to have any significant organization or significant Peoples of their own. How does these relate to those who've undergone the Ritual of Bahamut or those Dragonborn who've crossed over from Abeir? How do they view these peoples or their cultures? Would they attempt to assimilate to their ways, make war with them specifically because they're against Draconic oppression?
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
SUPPOSITION: The origins of dragonborn on Abeir have ties to long ago when the human creator race was active. Perhaps many humans long ago had actually learned and enacted a ritual to transform themselves magically into a "new" race known as Dragonborn. Perhaps they even served Asgorath or Bahamut or something.
I think these Dragonborn of Abeir were born true, thus didn't undergo any transformation initially. Perhaps the ritual was devised on Abeir and made it's way to Toril OR maybe the race of Dragonborn were ported in some instance to Toril and when they migrated, many tribes lost their way and became what is later known as Dragonkin and maybe some used a ritual to become "non"Draognborn (basically the reversal of the Rite of Bahamut) and it was later re-engineered to what we saw in 3e?
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2020 : 17:36:48
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You posit a lot of interesting questions there.
The "changing of stars" is something that I always have wondered. Because, if I understand the context correctly, the sarrukh witnessed that stuff from Toril's point of view. Do that means Ao send some stars (portals) to the demiplane or whatever it is where he put Abeir?
As for the Tearfall, if we go by the official timeline, this event happened before the creation of Abeir (in fact, it was why Ao created Abeir in the first place). So, I don't think the Steelsky was created to protect Abeir from that event.
As for the "death" of Asgorath, his supposed death happens before the Tearfall, that he created. So... I guess his death is just a myth, or Asgorath has the ability of resurrecting himself at will... many myths regarding him imply this power.
As for the dragonborn origins... we know Io/Asgorath created his dragonborn in the Nentir Vale world as a true race, but we don't know how. Did he created them, or do they sprang up from his blood? And we know in the Realms, Bahamut created his dragonborn with that ritual than transform any humanoid into a draconic being. We also know the myth of the kobold origins in the Grand History of the Realms, that tell us how Io/Asgorath taught the original dragons how to create life (it involved a sacrifice of blood, as per the version of the myth in Races of the Dragon).
We know that there is a relation between the dragonborn of Bahamut and the Abeiran ones (this is canon, and Ed also confirmed it). We know about the experiments in Argul and Raurokh to create/enhance dragonborn slaves. We know that Raurokh used to be a dwarven stronghold, and Gilgeam stated dragonborn are "perversions of what used to be humans". My guess is that the dragons of Abeir (especially Argularrah and Raurokhkyndar) used their "powers of creation" to modify Bahamut's ritual to create their own dragonborn race, using dwarves and humans for their experiments, and as such creating a true race in the process. This explains why Bahamut consider them his children: he feels responsible for their creation, even if indirectly, and he adopted them.
As for the dragons origins, you touch a really interesting point there. I've been reading the lore of dragons in the Mystara's Immortal set, and it has really interesting info about it. For instance, dragons are kin to the draedens, according to that book. Which means dragons maybe actually older than the Tearfall that brought them to the Realms. A Mystara's fan has a theory about how dragons were originally spirit-like beings that, in order to interact with the Prime became physical beings by being born in dinosaurs eggs. You can check more here, if you're interested.
Your theory about primordials possessing dragons... this is similar to what Masvirik did to Rhashaak in Eberron (check more here). In fact, I was thinking to import Haka'thorvak to my version of Tymanther. But I wouldn't dismiss the idea of gigantic dragons, however. According to the Cormanthyr boxed set, the original dragons of the Realms were more powerful than those of the current age. And there are dragons the size of a mountain, according to Ed.
As for Zotha's stuff... hasn't Ed said that Zotha was a Far Realm-related manta ray-like god (at least, according to the priests of Asgorath, he is related to the creation of the neogi and the illithids). On the other hand, Zotha can be a creature much like Masvirik, the Cold Sun.
As for the Mulan, I prefer them to be from D&D-Earth, as I don't like the idea of gods of other worlds being just copy-pastes of real world religions' deities.
As for Talos. Didn't Ed mentioned that his original idea was that some gods originated from the same "root", but are revered by different names/aspects in different cultures. He specifically mentioned this was the case with Sehanine and Selūne and Yondalla and Chauntea, but I guess the same applies to Gruumsh and Talos. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 23 Feb 2020 18:48:03 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2020 : 20:16:00
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Diffan,
You know, given that Vaasa has portions of Abeir fallen across it with Telos, your suppositions about dragonborn in Damara/Vaasa present interest to me. Technically the two regions are separate, but I could see some dragon cultists in Vaasa from the Cult of the Dragon possibly enacting the same ritual. I hadn't actually thought of that, but it could be a decent twist. I agree as well that it might not be just tied to Humans long ago.
Zero,
A lot of ground to cover, and obviously my own thoughts aren't concreted yet. However, so far, it seems like we're on a somewhat similar wavelength. Touching bits below. Forgive if I'm not clear on anything.
On the stars, yeah, my thoughts were that yes, perhaps the "energy" or "portals" to some of the stars were "drained"/"absorbed" to create the steelsky. Since they were connections to the plane of radiance this kind of makes sense to me. Also, if there was a "Crystal Sun"/"Ice Moon" that was in near orbit that was destroyed, that would also be a significant change in the sky (not the night sky though).
On the tearfall happening PRIOR to the sundering, I would say that the purpose of the sundering was to try and minimize the effect of the tearfall. However, maybe it lessened the effect exactly of how much "material" landed on each world? I'm picturing this material though as being "burning ice". Now, was this ice burning with bright red/orange/yellow flames? Or was it a steely/blue fire? Or, was it a "black fire" that provided heat and limited light? Maybe even bunches of it was turned into the material that became steelsky as it "evaporated" to form an atmosphere? The idea though that Karshimis' "Citadel of Burning Ice" is formed from some of this material I think is worth exploring, and whether this material is found in other areas of Abeir or Toril could be interesting.
I don't know anything about the experiments in Argul and Raurokh, but I'll have to look that up. Also, the statement by Gilgeam I'm assuming is from the novels, and I find that a great find. Thank you.
The idea though that you put forth of dragon spirits "infesting" dinosaurs that someone was proposing for Mystara.... I gotta say I like that a lot considering that we have the Sarrukh and the "Sauroid" races around about this time. In fact, perhaps the whole story of the tearfall could instead by something wherein it was Asgorath's death that pours its spiritual energy upon Toril and "infests" dinosaur AND Sauroid/Sarrukh eggs. Maybe THAT's where some dragonborn came from as well. Maybe this is also a good reason for a lot of dinosaurs to have disappeared.
On the gigantic dragons, yeah, I think there may have been some. However, I think I'm preferring the idea that we've perverted in our own minds exactly what "mounts" means and that the primordials were somehow sharing the bodies of dragons. Perhaps this is even the source of the dragon's ties to certain elements.
Will have to get back to the concept of the Mulans and their gods and Talos. Gotta go somewhere. The one thing I'll put forth is that "gods are liars"... and I would possibly say the same for primordials.... and perhaps a big lie is that there truly isn't much difference between the two. BTW, while I specifically listed the Mulan gods, I wouldn't limit it to them. Seethyr won't like this idea, but I wonder about the nature of the Maztican gods as well (and possibly the great spirits of Anchorome). Possibly by accepting that the "gods" of these areas were different and had somehow traversed from Abeir back to Toril in the intervening time might explain why certain areas traversed to Abeir.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2020 : 20:22:20
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Oh and Zotha having some kind of manta ray aspect.... man I'm encouraged to tie that to the true "spelljammer" vessel which was supposedly sentient and shaped like a manta ray. I just don't know enough about spelljammer history or its story.
Oh, some other quick thoughts. Coliar (the planet) and its orbiting "earth islands".... "shell of an egg that birthed something really huge"?
Bursting of the "crystal sun"/"ice moon" when Asgorath breathed its breaths upon it.... interaction of two different types of energy that then didn't work well? For instance, we're told that "weave and shadow weave energy interacting causes explosions". Hmmm, Selune hurled at Shar and Mystryl was born....
Be back later. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2020 : 00:52:38
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So I just started reading the stuff about Masvirik, the Cold Sun, that you mentioned. As much as I like Ed, I'm not sure we need to take him literally.
https://eberron.fandom.com/wiki/Masvirik
So, he was involved lizard kind. He was imprisoned by the sacrifice of the couatl (Jazirian) to form the silver flame. Why is he called the "Cold Sun"?
So, if Masvirik is something akin to a primordial, and if we're accepting that Primordials were using dragons as "mounts" by possessing them.... then what if Zotha was just a giant manta ray that ALSO got possessed like a Dragon by a primordial being. The Primordial being may have been an ice moon/crystal sun.... or rather a large amount of "burning ice" in orbit around Toril. It wouldn't have to specifically be Masvirik himself mind you, but it could. So, perhaps there is a way to make them both true... that Zotha was a giant manta ray like entity under the control of a dawn titan whose physical body was "moon"/"sun" of burning ice until it was freed by Asgorath touching the moon with its breath. Ironically, this manta ray entity may have ties to the Batrachi that freed Asgorath, as well as other "ray" like races such as ixitxachitl and and cloakers.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2020 : 01:09:31
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I had forgotten about that plot of the Tree-Gem of Vaasa. As far as I knew, the dragonborn of Bahamut were appearing in the Dales, specifically near Essembra.
So, I guess dragonborn are a significant minory in Vaasa and the Dales.
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Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2020 : 01:22:37
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Why is he called the "Cold Sun"?
According to Eberron lore?
In the Age of Demons, the region now known as Qbarra was the domain of a fiendish overlord of terrifying power. He drew the light from the sky, and so his slaves called him Masvirik, the Cold Sun, cousin to Tiamat.
So, Zotha could have that kind of power, as well. A sun that darkened the sky and chilled the air.
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Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2020 : 01:45:37
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Hmmm, as long as you have me looking at Eberron lore, its interesting that its history kind of fits what I'm proposing very well. Its early history starts with powerful dragon entities. One of them is killed and is buried away in the earth. Also, the "silver flame" of Eberron and the "steelsky" power of Abeir both have some similarities. Both sets don't necessarily crave worship, but they want individuals to serve their ends. Siberys of Eberron is also a dragon that forms the sky of Eberron
. and not sure if there's any lore to support it, but it COULD be the force of the silver flame. This cycle seems to be somewhat mirrored in all of these worlds. In some ways one could almost say that these similarities might be matched up with some discrepancies on timing, sexual identitites, and familial relations
Siberys = Kukul = Jazirian (see http://klubbsaga2015.wikidot.com/siberys)
Eberron = Maztica = Shekinester (saying this because Shekinester "swallows" Ssharstrune, and Eberron envelops Khyber)
Khyber = The Night Serpent = Ssharstrune
?? = Qotal = Parrafaire = Ubtao
These aren't perfect relations mind you, but they all have ties to Couatls, a serpent of darkness, and a motherly goddess who somehow envelops or swallows a great evil. The Maztica piece could instead be the Preserver aspect of Shekinester.
Other creator race gods could also match with the Maztican pantheon as well to a degree... Merrshaulk for instance could very much fit Zaltec, as could the batrachi god Ramenos. Both are sacrifice hungry beings. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2020 : 02:13:09
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According to Eberron lore, the Silver Flame is powered up by the sacrifice of all the coualt race of that world. It's unrelated to Syberis. Syberis actually is what powers magic.
Back to Masvirik, according to Keith Baker (Eberron's creator), Masvirik is equivalent to Zehir in the core lore. So, Set. It seems Zotha may be the origins of this serpent god (and it makes sense, a serpent old god in the age of the sarrukh). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 24 Feb 2020 02:17:24 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2020 : 03:29:09
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I've long been fiddling with the idea of the 2.0 dragonborn having been some case of large numbers of humans going through something like the 1.0 dragonborn transformation, all at once -- like there was some dire threat that necessitated this transformation as the only way to survive. Maybe it was some sort of plague that affected humans but not dragons; the transformation gave them immunity. Or maybe the dire threat was something that required an armed response, and for some reason vanilla humans just couldn't hack it.
This is another of those things I've given much thought to, but I've not figured out a way to make it work that I like. I do much better with tweaking someone else's ideas, rather than generating my own. |
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Steelsky, Dragonborn, and Dragonmounts
