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Myth
Acolyte
Spain
15 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Feb 2020 : 15:43:55
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Welmet friends, Iīm looking for some information about the elven hero Tethir, couldnīt find a lot about it.
If someone can help it would be great.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2020 : 21:23:38
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FRindex has a few more. But yes.
Cormanthyr has only one mention in the timeline, for one. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Myth
Acolyte
Spain
15 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2020 : 22:02:39
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So, there is no really the history of him and the first elven slain of a dragon? Yes I can only find a few lines there, thanls for the answers anyway
What is FR Index? |
Edited by - Myth on 15 Feb 2020 22:05:39 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2020 : 08:44:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Myth
So, there is no really the history of him and the first elven slain of a dragon?
Just the basics in Lands of Intrigue.
quote:
(Tethyr - History & Current Events)
The dragons' wars against the giants led to great fires, which caused the First Tethirift - the burning and clear-cut-
ting of trees along the Ridge and the resulting separation of the dragon-infested Wyrmwood (now the
Snakewood and Shilmista) from the greater body of the forest. Tethir, a young elven warlord and kin
of Keltormir, sacrificed his life to slay two ancient red wyrms that lived in the Ridge. This act allowed
the majority of his tribe to escape to safety in the denser forests of the south. While the greater body of
the forest was still called Keltormir, the northern quadrant just south of the great lake became known
as Tethir, after their great tragic hero and the first recorded elven dragon slayer. Still, while the elves
were harassed by dragons and giants alike through the following centuries, Tethir's stand earned the
elves the respect of the dragons, who had previously dismissed them as ignorant, two-footed cattle.
quote:
What is FR Index?
A list of references (source and pages) to lots of terms and names in official FR sourcebooks and magazine articles.
On the main Candlekeep site, but somewhat buried in other stuff. Library / Various Unofficial Lore / Forgotten Realms Index. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 16 Feb 2020 13:27:25 |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2020 : 19:06:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Myth
Welmet friends, Iīm looking for some information about the elven hero Tethir, couldnīt find a lot about it.
If someone can help it would be great.
As there is no Cannon lore besides a few brief tid-bits, I will give a quick homebrew lore that uses all the current info on Tethir in 3.5 era.
Tethir was a legendary Copper elf (Wood elf) Ranger/ Sorcerer that made peace and unity with the Wild elves of the western tomb city deep in the heart of the Mytharan Woods, a section of the Wealdath in Tethyr. Even the elves themselves were unsure of when it was built, but it was some time during the height of the realm of Keltormir.
Tethir would have been an Epic NPC in 3.5 during his era. Something like Ranger 20/ Sorcerer 15. So a CR of 35 or more as is, or possibly being a Chosen of Solonor Thelandira, or Sheverash. Slaying Mighty Dragons is very hard to do, but befriending them is harder. Tethir befriended the Silver Dragon Saranthasathil "The Weary." and formed an alliance between elf and goodly dragons in western Keltormir during that time.
The many millennia since then has brought hardship and loss to the Wealdath in recent years (Circa 1375 DR). Copper elves are scarce in a forest full of Wild elves. The remaining Copper elves hail lineage from Tethir, but hold no sway or power positions in daily society among the xenophobic wild elves.
Current ranking Copper elf in the Wealdath region is;
Ressynroux Selorn: CN Copper elf Fey male of The Wealdath Forest. CR 20; Scout 10/ Wildrunner (Fey-scout) 10. Grandmaster of stealth.
Second ranking elf of the Wealdath region is;
Florithalill WinterWillow: CG Wild elf Fey female of The Wealdath Forest. CR 15; Sorcerer 5/ Feymage 10. Fey-mound and Crossroad champion of the remains of Keltormir.
All elves, no matter what sub-race in the forest, hate humans of every kind. They are even suspicious of other elves entering their realm without explicit permission from a leader of the clans.
They have a good relationship with the lost clan of Dwarven kings of The "Wyrmskull Throne". The dwarves of Clan Ghalmrin live beneath their forest and protect the forest kingdom from threats from below, including Drow elves, Derro, Grey Dwarves, Mind-Flayers, and other denizens of the deep underdark.
Tethir founded the ancient city of Mythdath and Myth Rhynn during the Crown Wars as a refuge for any elves fleeing the death and war of the slaughter occurring among the elven cities in the north, east and south.
***********************************************
Hope that helps a little.
CEV.
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Edited by - Copper Elven Vampire on 29 Feb 2020 05:31:49 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2020 : 23:01:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Myth
Welmet friends, Iīm looking for some information about the elven hero Tethir, couldnīt find a lot about it.
If someone can help it would be great.
If you're looking for character levels, then he was between 23-26HD. He died killing two ancient reds, which is a CR 26 encounter.
Otherwise, there's nothing that hasn't been said already. |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2020 : 03:58:53
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by Myth
Welmet friends, Iīm looking for some information about the elven hero Tethir, couldnīt find a lot about it.
If someone can help it would be great.
If you're looking for character levels, then he was between 23-26HD. He died killing two ancient reds, which is a CR 26 encounter.
Otherwise, there's nothing that hasn't been said already.
I assume those are 2ED stats? two ancient Red Dragons wouldn't be a CR 26 encounter in 3.5 ED. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2020 : 02:56:38
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An ancient red dragon is CR 23 in 3.5e. Two ancient reds are a CR 26 encounter, which you can check through an encounter calculator.
He's not more than 30HD, at most. |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2020 : 05:29:25
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
An ancient red dragon is CR 23 in 3.5e. Two ancient reds are a CR 26 encounter, which you can check through an encounter calculator.
He's not more than 30HD, at most.
Then it's broken indeed. 2 said dragons only being a CR 26? Blatantly broken. If 1 is 23 and a second is also a 23...?? Get my logic?
It's not that hard to hit level 20 and be epic in 3.5. Two ancient red dragons at CR 26 is ludicrous. |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2020 : 05:49:19
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by Myth
Welmet friends, Iīm looking for some information about the elven hero Tethir, couldnīt find a lot about it.
If someone can help it would be great.
If you're looking for character levels, then he was between 23-26HD. He died killing two ancient reds, which is a CR 26 encounter.
Otherwise, there's nothing that hasn't been said already.
Even if he was CR 26. Tethir would never slay two ancient red dragons by himself without dying himself.
One ancient red dragon is CR 23. Add another... and cities will be destroyed.
A 23 CR elf cannot beat a 23 CR ancient red dragon. lmao. Tethir was more likely around CR 35 (mind you this was back during the crown wars when elven magic was more powerful and less constricted by Mystra, using level 10+ spells.)
I would personally estimate two ancient red dragons at a CR of 41. If Tethir was a CR 35 it would make sense that he slew them both and died himself doing it. Otherwise a CR 30 elf at best could beat two CR 23 ancient red dragons together? NEVER!!
Something beyond epic happened, or elves were just that powerful that long ago. Either way... The CR system is broken beyond repair as far as cannon goes. Let's try to make it better in homebrew. Maybe there'll be a ret-con. lol.
I can do the math with you all day on this one. lol.  |
Edited by - Copper Elven Vampire on 29 Feb 2020 06:38:03 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2020 : 06:21:26
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Your hyperbole aside, two CR 23 creatures are nowhere close to CR 41. A CR 35 creature would absolutely murder a CR 23 creature.
It is possible for a CR 23 elf to beat a CR 23 dragon. It depends on class and equipment, since a sword-and-board fighter is likely to get horribly murdered, while a cleric or wizard can just chill from their private demiplanes and hit the poor lizard with chain-gated armies of fiends/solars.
The general rule of thumb is that doubles of the same CR bump the EL by 2. The ancient red is a powerhouse by itself, so adding +1 gets us an EL of 26, which is in-line with what encounter calculators will tell you. You can check page 101 of the 3.0 DMG for a rough idea.
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2020 : 06:25:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
An ancient red dragon is CR 23 in 3.5e. Two ancient reds are a CR 26 encounter, which you can check through an encounter calculator.
He's not more than 30HD, at most.
Then it's broken indeed. 2 said dragons only being a CR 26? Blatantly broken. If 1 is 23 and a second is also a 23...?? Get my logic?
It's not that hard to hit level 20 and be epic in 3.5. Two ancient red dragons at CR 26 is ludicrous.
CR is not a matter of x+x = 2x. Ancient red dragons are not overwhelmingly powerful; it's a 15th level caster with SR 28 in addition to being a giant murderlizard. At CR 23, any full caster can trivially beat its SR and dispel its buffs.
Then there are anomalies like the tarrasque, which can be defeated by a wizard with a bunch of allips. |
Edited by - LordofBones on 29 Feb 2020 06:28:55 |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2020 : 07:05:05
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
An ancient red dragon is CR 23 in 3.5e. Two ancient reds are a CR 26 encounter, which you can check through an encounter calculator.
He's not more than 30HD, at most.
Then it's broken indeed. 2 said dragons only being a CR 26? Blatantly broken. If 1 is 23 and a second is also a 23...?? Get my logic?
It's not that hard to hit level 20 and be epic in 3.5. Two ancient red dragons at CR 26 is ludicrous.
CR is not a matter of x+x = 2x. Ancient red dragons are not overwhelmingly powerful; it's a 15th level caster with SR 28 in addition to being a giant murderlizard. At CR 23, any full caster can trivially beat its SR and dispel its buffs.
Then there are anomalies like the tarrasque, which can be defeated by a wizard with a bunch of allips.
I get that, I do. But 3.5 is broken when it comes to calculating its ratings of the particular encounter, or challenge. Again I'll say that in standard 3.5 ED game play, 2 ancient red dragons with spells and possibly bard levels, monk levels, cleric levels, whatever, will more than likely shred you if you're not a master of melee, arcane, divine or roguish combinations together.
A CR 23 human Paladin would be limited against the great wyrm knowing only melee battle.
A CR 23 elven wizard would be limited against the great wyrm knowing only arcane arts.
Although you're an epic PC or NPC, epic encounters tend to follow.
If you're a CR 30 copper elf called Tethir...
If you're a Ancient Red Dragon with a name and levels in classes, and have the same difficulty class and CR of 23, then two of you in the same place would not be 26, no matter how you configure it in post-Cannon homebrew.
It's like saying the Hurricane did all the damage without anyone taking notice of the Storm Surge that flooded the whole city. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2020 : 07:22:05
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The paladin would have problems, but the wizard generally wouldn't. Spells are king in 3.5e; full casters almost always branch out into caster level progression prestige classes. Melee is really good at doing damage, but full casters snap reality over their knee.
The ancient reds Tethir killed were nameless. They're just generic ancient reds, not Balagor the Crimson Doom or Frank the Mildly Flatulent. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2020 : 17:29:18
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
(snip) Frank the Mildly Flatulent.
An ancient green dragon who was, oddly, not feared for his breathe weapon!
His fear of fire was proven to be valid when he was accidently slain by one of his kobold servants lighting a candle in his lair. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 29 Feb 2020 17:30:32 |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2020 : 01:16:16
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
The paladin would have problems, but the wizard generally wouldn't. Spells are king in 3.5e; full casters almost always branch out into caster level progression prestige classes. Melee is really good at doing damage, but full casters snap reality over their knee.
The ancient reds Tethir killed were nameless. They're just generic ancient reds, not Balagor the Crimson Doom or Frank the Mildly Flatulent.
I see that an ancient red dragon is average of 32-33 HD in 3.5 ed. The CR would be equal or higher in numbers.
Just saying Tethir must have been wicked powerful to slay two ancient reds; each one between 32-33 HD. And that's without levels in any classes. lol.
An Ancient Red Dragon is 31d12+186 (387 hp) for a basic "no-name" red with no class levels. lol. For Tethir to take on one basic red dragon alone would place him around 30 HD, 30 CR, unless he had a template to augment his stats and CR higher. One red dragon maybe, but two ANCIENT red dragons is insanely powerful, even if the elven hero died accomplishing that feat, it's upper 40's to lower 50's CR to do it I would say.
I would surmise, Tethir: CG Copper elf Fey male of Myth Rhynn; Ranger 20/ Sorcerer 20/ Wildrunner 10 of Solonor Thelandira. A CR of 50 to 52 depending on his Wildrunner Fey transformation.
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2020 : 16:57:16
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| Dragon CR is in the MM and the d20 SRD. The highest CR for a chromatic is 27 for a great wyrm red. I don't think you understand the CR system, one CR 50 creature is basically at the level where flights of dragons are cannon fodder. |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2020 : 21:51:11
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Dragon CR is in the MM and the d20 SRD. The highest CR for a chromatic is 27 for a great wyrm red. I don't think you understand the CR system, one CR 50 creature is basically at the level where flights of dragons are cannon fodder.
I get it, I truly do, but I guess I play only epic campaigns these days. We take basic D&D d20 system and beef it up like it should be. I could go to Pathfinder to get ultra decked out PC's, but I'm a Forgotten Realms loyalist. We play differently I guess. Cheers. |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2020 : 04:45:33
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| I think my example is more than playable. if not universal. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2020 : 06:11:50
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Master LordofBones,
Were you looking at the M&M 3.5 for that CR27 GWRD?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Dragon CR is in the MM and the d20 SRD. The highest CR for a chromatic is 27 for a great wyrm red. I don't think you understand the CR system, one CR 50 creature is basically at the level where flights of dragons are cannon fodder.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2020 : 06:33:36
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master LordofBones,
Were you looking at the M&M 3.5 for that CR27 GWRD?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Dragon CR is in the MM and the d20 SRD. The highest CR for a chromatic is 27 for a great wyrm red. I don't think you understand the CR system, one CR 50 creature is basically at the level where flights of dragons are cannon fodder.
Exactly |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2020 : 10:13:43
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master LordofBones,
Were you looking at the M&M 3.5 for that CR27 GWRD?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Dragon CR is in the MM and the d20 SRD. The highest CR for a chromatic is 27 for a great wyrm red. I don't think you understand the CR system, one CR 50 creature is basically at the level where flights of dragons are cannon fodder.
SRD, which is essentially the same. |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2020 : 23:42:22
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master LordofBones,
Were you looking at the M&M 3.5 for that CR27 GWRD?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Dragon CR is in the MM and the d20 SRD. The highest CR for a chromatic is 27 for a great wyrm red. I don't think you understand the CR system, one CR 50 creature is basically at the level where flights of dragons are cannon fodder.
SRD, which is essentially the same.
Yes, I'm aware. I have the SRD on my speed bookmark. Thank you. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2020 : 16:30:40
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Master LordofBones,
It is funny how that math works out though, isn't it? haha
I don't use EL, CR, or anything anymore along those lines. I run sandbox with scaling. At the end of the session, the party gets 1/3 the XP needed to advance to the next level, based on the party average. That way, if they RP or fight, it doesn't matter. :)
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Elven Hero Tethir
