Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 General Forgotten Realms Chat
 5e lore change question: Azzagrat to Azzatar?
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  

Quickleaf
Learned Scribe

76 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2020 :  05:03:44  Show Profile Send Quickleaf a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
The realm of the demon lord Graz'zt has been called Azzagrat since 2e, and this name was later used in the 3e Expedition to the Demonweb Pits & Fiendish Codex, as well as the 4e Demonomicon.

I just read something in 5e's Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes (printed May 2018) on page 148 that caught my eye:

Graz'zt's principal lair is his Argent Palace, a grandiose structure in the city of Zelatar, found within his abyssal domain of Azzatar.

This isn't just a typo, as it is repeated on DnD Beyond: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/mtof/bestiary#Graz%E2%80%99zt%E2%80%99sLair

EDIT: And I just confirmed that reference to "Azzatar" first appeared in 5e's Out of the Abyss (September 2015) on page 240, which is verbatim what later appears in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes:

Graz'zt's principal lair is his Argent Palace, a grandiose structure in the city of Zelatar, found within his Abyssal domain of Azzatar.

Which is quite strange, because on WOTC's own page, Shannon Appelcine's 08/28/2015 article about the demon lord Graz'zt mentions Azzagrat as the name of his realm: https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/graz%E2%80%99zt%E2%80%94-dark-prince

Why the name change from Azzagrat to Azzatar? Does this has something to do with Gygax's rights to his Gord the Rogue novels in which Graz'zt appears?

Edited by - Quickleaf on 14 Feb 2020 05:14:50

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
33624 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2020 :  05:05:52  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think it's likely more a case of a designer thinking "I think this sounds kewler, so who give's an osquip's ass what it was called before?"

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 14 Feb 2020 05:07:08
Go to Top of Page

Quickleaf
Learned Scribe

76 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2020 :  05:09:43  Show Profile Send Quickleaf a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I think it's likely more a case of a designer thinking "I think this sounds kewler, so who give's an osquip's ass what it was called before?"



Really? I mean, I wouldn't rule out the possibility, but the designers on Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes are some pretty heavy-hitters with deep lore knowledge...

Lead Designers: Mike Mearls, Jeremy Crawford
Designers: Adam Lee, Ben Petrisor, Robert J. Schwalb, Matt Sernett, Steve Winter
Additional Design: Kim Mohan, Christopher Perkins, Kate Welch

EDIT: And I just confirmed that reference to "Azzatar" first appeared in 5e's Out of the Abyss (September 2015) on page 240, which is verbatim what later appears in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes:

Graz'zt's principal lair is his Argent Palace, a grandiose structure in the city of Zelatar, found within his Abyssal domain of Azzatar.

And Out of the Abyss was a collaboration between WOTC and Green Ronin, with a different group of designers that I'm less familiar with:

Lead Adventure Designer: Steve Kenson*
Designers: Cam Banks*, Walter Ciechanowski, Alex Melchor*, Christopher Perkins, Chris Pramas*, Robert J. Schwalb*, Matt Sernett, Rodney Thompson, Ray Winninger*
D&D Lead Designers: Mike Mearls, Jeremy Crawford

Edited by - Quickleaf on 14 Feb 2020 05:18:07
Go to Top of Page

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5857 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2020 :  09:50:24  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yep, that's the problem. "Heavy hitters" always think that their changes are appropriate.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
33624 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2020 :  11:09:54  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Adherence to prior lore has been less and less of a priority since 3E came out.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

Grumpy Hamatula
Seeker

22 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2020 :  12:49:57  Show Profile Send Grumpy Hamatula a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not sure why it appears, but I wonder if it's a portmanteau of Azzagrat and the name of its capital, Zelatar?
Go to Top of Page

Seethyr
Senior Scribe

USA
801 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2020 :  14:31:52  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Iím at work and donít have my research materials, but I thought Grazízt had three layers of the Abyss under his control. Perhaps Azzagrat is one layer and Azzatar refers to the entire ďkingdomĒ or vice versus.

I donít really lose sleep over changes like this. 100 year time jumps where all my favorite characters I grew up on are likely dead, thatís a different story.

Follow the Maztica (Aztec/Maya) and Anchorome (Indigenous North America) Campaigns on DMsGuild!

The Maztica Campaign
The Anchorome Campaign

Edited by - Seethyr on 14 Feb 2020 14:33:06
Go to Top of Page

Grumpy Hamatula
Seeker

22 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2020 :  16:00:36  Show Profile Send Grumpy Hamatula a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

Iím at work and donít have my research materials, but I thought Grazízt had three layers of the Abyss under his control. Perhaps Azzagrat is one layer and Azzatar refers to the entire ďkingdomĒ or vice versus.



That possibility had occurred to me as well. Unfortunately, a quick check of some of my available sources from 1e through 4e yielded no names for the individual layers of Graz'zt's realm. I checked the following:

1e Manual of the Planes
2e Planes of Chaos
3e Manual of the Planes
3e Fiendish Codex I
4e Demonomicon

So at least as near as I can tell, the individual layers have likely never been specifically named--or, if they have, I don't know of the publication in which they were.
Go to Top of Page

Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3235 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2020 :  16:09:36  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Quickleaf

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I think it's likely more a case of a designer thinking "I think this sounds kewler, so who give's an osquip's ass what it was called before?"



Really? I mean, I wouldn't rule out the possibility, but the designers on Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes are some pretty heavy-hitters with deep lore knowledge...

Lead Designers: Mike Mearls, Jeremy Crawford
Designers: Adam Lee, Ben Petrisor, Robert J. Schwalb, Matt Sernett, Steve Winter
Additional Design: Kim Mohan, Christopher Perkins, Kate Welch

EDIT: And I just confirmed that reference to "Azzatar" first appeared in 5e's Out of the Abyss (September 2015) on page 240, which is verbatim what later appears in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes:

Graz'zt's principal lair is his Argent Palace, a grandiose structure in the city of Zelatar, found within his Abyssal domain of Azzatar.

And Out of the Abyss was a collaboration between WOTC and Green Ronin, with a different group of designers that I'm less familiar with:

Lead Adventure Designer: Steve Kenson*
Designers: Cam Banks*, Walter Ciechanowski, Alex Melchor*, Christopher Perkins, Chris Pramas*, Robert J. Schwalb*, Matt Sernett, Rodney Thompson, Ray Winninger*
D&D Lead Designers: Mike Mearls, Jeremy Crawford



Man, a slight change in the name of an Abyssal realm is the least dramatic change/retcon these heavy hitters have forced on the Realms with that book. For example, the elven lore is vasty in contradiction with the FR elven lore, from the history to the core characterization of certain deities (Vhaeraun as submissive to Lolth? For friggin' real?). It also raises a lot of practical questions, worldbuilding-wise. You can handwave this as the book being "setting-neautral" (which doesn't make a whole lot of sense, given how they also put FR-specific stuff there, and how they tried to force one version on all worlds), or just Mord's thoughts on the matter, but still...

It's pretty obvious that designers didn't give a flying about staying true to old lore. The sad part is that, while overhauling everything, they didn't put an effort into improving the worldbuilding, and left dated, cheap (and problematic) worldbuilding exactly as it was (looking at the nonsensical "way of Lolth").

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 15 Feb 2020 03:47:49
Go to Top of Page

Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe

USA
237 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2020 :  18:16:15  Show Profile  Visit Storyteller Hero's Homepage Send Storyteller Hero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
How large is the Abyssal layer that Graz'zt lives in? Azzatar could be one of multiple regions within Azzagrat.




My Blog: https://www.facebook.com/Johnnys-Tabletop-RPG-Design-Blog-1697026710539149/?ref=aymt_homepage_panel

My DMG Shop: http://www.dmsguild.com/browse.php?x=0&y=0&author=Johnny%20Tek

Go to Top of Page

Kentinal
Great Reader

4435 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2020 :  18:50:46  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"45th, 46th, and 47th Layers

Ruled by Graz'zt, demon lord of depending on your source, A)tyrants, manipulation, and, unofficially, blatant nepotism, or B) lust, hedonism, and incubi. There's a salt river that connects all three layers. " from https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Abyss

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
Go to Top of Page

Seethyr
Senior Scribe

USA
801 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2020 :  20:11:54  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Personally I think some of the most egregious changes were actually to monsters in the MM. For example, read the morkoth description. Something about a dead god? Yes thereís no way to reconcile some of these changes and for the life of me, I canít understand why it would be done. Canít make a creature called a morkooooooooth that has the new backstory instead??

Follow the Maztica (Aztec/Maya) and Anchorome (Indigenous North America) Campaigns on DMsGuild!

The Maztica Campaign
The Anchorome Campaign
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
33624 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2020 :  21:42:36  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

Personally I think some of the most egregious changes were actually to monsters in the MM. For example, read the morkoth description. Something about a dead god? Yes thereís no way to reconcile some of these changes and for the life of me, I canít understand why it would be done. Canít make a creature called a morkooooooooth that has the new backstory instead??



The people deciding to make these arbitrary changes don't have any regard for continuity, and they expect their audience to feel the same. I think a lot of them would be surprised to find out that some people consider continuity to be a selling point.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

TheIriaeban
Learned Scribe

USA
280 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2020 :  00:31:54  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

Personally I think some of the most egregious changes were actually to monsters in the MM. For example, read the morkoth description. Something about a dead god? Yes thereís no way to reconcile some of these changes and for the life of me, I canít understand why it would be done. Canít make a creature called a morkooooooooth that has the new backstory instead??



The people deciding to make these arbitrary changes don't have any regard for continuity, and they expect their audience to feel the same. I think a lot of them would be surprised to find out that some people consider continuity to be a selling point.



Beyond continuity, has anyone heard in any interviews if they have a true affection for the setting? I would guess that the people here do because they otherwise wouldn't be here.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
33624 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2020 :  02:48:29  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban


Beyond continuity, has anyone heard in any interviews if they have a true affection for the setting? I would guess that the people here do because they otherwise wouldn't be here.



I don't listen to the interviews. I think their work speaks for itself.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1194 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2020 :  05:43:15  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is just one of the many, many issues with 5e. I mean, that's without the whole Asmodeus/Bensozia/Glasya/Levistus thing out of Game of Thrones (GOTTA MAKE HELL MORE EDGY), hyenas being evil, the Mordenkainen fiasco, what they did to the Dark Trinity, what they did to the 'loths, etc.

At this point, I'm expecting Elminster to have an evil twin brother reared by Shar, creatively named Hellminster. You can tell he's the bad twin because he has 'hell' in his name.
Go to Top of Page

Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
717 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2020 :  09:10:14  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, the Asmodeus/Bensozia/Glasya/Levistus thing, is a 4E thing, with roots in late 2E (Guide to Hell.)

And to be fair I rather liked that change, as I read it in the original Dungeon article (Codex of Betrayal: Glasya -
Dungeon #197). Before that Bensozia and Glasya over the years, were a bit underdeveloped (especially Bensozia) and didn't even weren't described as doing anything really evil over the decades of lore

With Bensozia being a victim, who since late 2E, done more with her death than during life lore-wise.

in 4E, while they gave her a sympathetic backtory and motivation (ie Asmodeus basically forced her into a marriage with him, and inflicted marital rape on her, all of which not from any feelings towards her, or her own worth as a person, but to spite his creator even after he killed him, and to produce a child who could act as his proxy out of hell.), and made her relationship with Levistus more nuanced (ie they had an affair, in part due to both hating Asmodeus), she still was presented as a flawed person. As she also saw her daughter as only a weapon against Asmodeus, with it even being stated Glasya was born "innocent" (possibly due the Angelic origins of both Asmodeus and Bensozia probably yet not being at least fully a devil), but was warped due to how Asmodeus and her brought her up.

Glasya's rebellious streak, was given more depth, beyond just being "Satan's Teen Daughter", and was shown to have a bad relationship with both parents (rather than keeping up the bad father, good mother stereotype or at least trope), and you could finally see with all of her manipulation she is "her father's daughter", rather than mostly existing just existing and being important mostly due to to being Asmodeus daughter. And it's not that this was overblown/overdone - while she did some impressive manipulation, her plans still blew, and it's basically stated her father saw through them, but punished her without death (only humiliation), as she rather impressed him, and was still a great asset to his plans.

Previously, in 3.5E, basically Glasya's achievements were basically, or came of as being due to her father, while here, while he does end up coming of as manipulating her to his own means, it's not different to what Asmodeus done achieves with all other devils

She also did finally some morally questionable things, like murdering her own mother, killing Naome to incite Belial, and stop him from negotiating a peaceful solution.

Asmodeus being a heartless being who didn't even love Bensozia, is consistent with his previous characterization - I mean, just let's consider how since 2E, he betrayed Geryon despite his loyalty, and even friendship, or that it's a guy who to devoured children and forced their parents to watch. As that was what he done to Lucifer/Beherit according to Ed (and specified in Elminster in Hell) - he devoured his son, Lucifuge alive, the old fashioned real way, forcing Luficer/Beherit (and presumably Batna) to watch, before absorbing them himself.

(So yeah, Baator was kinda always pretty edgy...)

And the article, also did gave the possibility to keep the lore closer to the original - ie Levistus murdering Bensozia, and such - as it presented both accounts, as that - accounts what possibly really happened. And with that at least tries to be somewhat compatible with past lore, if presenting the past story of Bensozia and Glaysa as possibly false, as Hell's propaganda to speak the least (especially with Bensozia).

Or at least that's my opinion

Edited by - Baltas on 15 Feb 2020 09:59:19
Go to Top of Page

LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1194 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2020 :  12:27:51  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Asmodeus and Bensozia having a genuinely loving relationship, IMO, is better than the bizarre incestuous love triangle thing going on in 4e. It is the one thing the Lord Below will never manipulate, the only facet of his history that is not twisted or warped to fit his agenda.

It also serves as Martinet's greatest shame - his eternal punishment is to serve as Hell's Constable. Exile would be easy, death would be preferable, but living every day knowing he failed the Law of Baator keeps Martinet ever on his toes, keeping him from being complacent.

4e is just Satan doing Satanic things.

The rest is explainable. Geryon was a lapdog, blinded by loyalty, without the ambition, cunning and ruthlessness required in a Lord of Hell. Lucifuge flat out committed treason.

I guess it could also be explained by how divergent the two versions of Asmodeus are. 3.5e Asmodeus is a fallen exemplar of Law that ended up in Baator when the Baatorians left, and took over. 4e Asmodeus is literally Satan.
Go to Top of Page

Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
717 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2020 :  17:40:19  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There is no incest in the Love triangle Between Levistus, Bensozia and Glasya. Levistus seduced both Glasya and Benzosia without either knowing.

It was never clear if Asmodeus really loved Bensozia. In fact, there are some evidence against it.

In Guide to Hell, the only source to delved on Asmodeus feeling during the murder of his consort, it's stated Asmodeus imprisoned Levistus as he "was outraged by his insolence" for killing Bensozia. The wording at least heavily suggests he wasn't angry because he cared about Bensozia, but because how Levistus actions gone against his authority and the order/laws of hell.

And I really think if Asmodeus loved Bensozia the wording wouldn't be that he was outraged by Levistus insolence.

In the Book of Vile Darkness, doesn't specify why Bensozia's murder enraged him.

Fiendish Coxed II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells also doesn't state anything on Asmodeus's feelings towards Bensozia.

And the thing is the 4E version still works in the aspects you like about it (ie Martinet's shame, orderly Asmodeus).

It actually works better with Martinet - he not only failed to protect Bensozia, but he also lied to Asmodeus, out of fear Asmodeus would look weak if he couldn't control his daughter to this degree.

In 2e to 3.5 (or even just 3.5 E) there were various versions explaining why Asmodeus betrayed Geryon. Tome of Magic outright stated it was from basically as he wanted to devour Geryon's very essence, so he drove him to depths of despair as "The ruler of the Nine Hells had always hungered for the souls of those who had lost their faith, and Geryonís powerful soul made a fine meal." - which is not at all stereotypical Satan-like behavior

Codex of Fiends II basically stated Asmodeus really betrayed Geryon, to transfer his power to Glasya, while Levistus' release was only a distraction. Basically it was all a plot to promote Glasya as a Lord of the Nine.

It also keeps the Lawful/Orderly aspect of Hell - Asmodeus was stated in Dungeon 197 to punish Levitus not even from a sense of wounded pride like in Guide to Hell, but becaue how deeply Levistus went against the order and law of Hel by (seemingly) murdering Bensozia. That comes as a very cold, near mechanical Lawful behavior.

In general, in 4E Asmodeus also was portrayed as a creature of evil order, even havong good relationship with Erathis, goddess of Civilization (who was confirmed to be Lawful Neutral in 5E, but suggested as such from the start.)

In general Asmodeus characterization as a dark being of law, who still enforces it, is derived from the Biblical Satan, more than Asmodeus - as in the Old Testament, specifically Book of Job, Satan is the dark agent of law and order - God's accuser of humanity - with even the name Satan meaning accuser.
This interpretation of Satan is also used in some stories, most notably the Shin Megami Tensei series:
https://megamitensei.fandom.com/wiki/Satan

As I mentioned before, 4E Angels actually work quite well as Aphanacts.

Ad as I mentioned, the article in Dungeon #197 does mention the above facts (like at least Glasya's motivations to hate Levistus, her and Bensozia's separate affairs with Levistus, who killed Bensozia etc) as can be just another version of the story/rumor what really happened. (To be fair though, the Levistus article though does suggest the 4E version is what happened, although it's probably connected to fact the articles had different writers - Codex of Betrayal: Glasya was written by Robert J. Schwalb - yes the co-author/writer of Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells - Robert J. Schwalb, while Codex of Betrayal: Levistus was written by John Rossomangno).

Edited by - Baltas on 15 Feb 2020 19:33:38
Go to Top of Page

The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2169 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2020 :  00:12:22  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

This is just one of the many, many issues with 5e. I mean, that's without the whole Asmodeus/Bensozia/Glasya/Levistus thing out of Game of Thrones (GOTTA MAKE HELL MORE EDGY), hyenas being evil, the Mordenkainen fiasco, what they did to the Dark Trinity, what they did to the 'loths, etc.

At this point, I'm expecting Elminster to have an evil twin brother reared by Shar, creatively named Hellminster. You can tell he's the bad twin because he has 'hell' in his name.



To late, Ed did that with Hesperdan then waved Dragon him dead in a novel.
Go to Top of Page
  Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2020 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000