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St3v3nMC198666
Acolyte

USA
7 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2020 :  23:24:09  Show Profile Send St3v3nMC198666 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"I don't know which me that I love, I got no reflection." ~ Marilyn Manson & The Spooky Kids (Comes to mind once more with your curiosity in the mix...

quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

This is more of a meta-discussion than a proper lore one, but I wanted the thoughts of the sages on this: what purpose does the Wall serve?

It seems like an odd moral judgment to make - revere a deity in life or face what is essentially an eternal punishment - and I was curious if anyone has ever heard reasoning from the authors why it’s a feature of the setting to begin with. I’d love to get a read on how everyone here feels about it as well, and if anyone discards it or has done a campaign perhaps asking questions about it and/or replacing or destroying it.



We are considering false gods, goddesses & each as one hence counter-intuitive this, that or the other in a delusional attempt to beseech aid from any & all who just-so-happen to be transcended at all. Psionic capacity being what it is. Much like the peanut-butter on a mouse-trap in-stead of peanut-butter on a snare. If the mouse fails...it will most likely NOT survive where-as the snare will teach in & of it's self presence or no.

< ( _ + * = _ + * ) >
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2146 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2020 :  00:33:32  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think that the main issues with the Faithless and the False are that there is no real-world comparison.

In the Realms, the gods are REAL, you see them they do things they are active in everyone's life to some extent. Therefore everyone KNOWS the gods are real. If you're a farmer, the Chauntea has your back. You'd be a fool not to offer a prayer when planting. If you're a soldier then look there's several stalwart deities to choose from. There is a god or goddess for everyone.

The faithless are those that, knowing the gods exist, choose to shun the gods outright anyways. Like many of the ancient Netherese who denied the divinity of the gods and therefore offered them no praise. Now the reason they go to the wall seems simple to me - souls have to go somewhere. Like gods they are REAL in this game AND they have power. The whole system of the gods is based on the balance of this power so they had to decide what to do with those souls that "belonged" to none of them. "Just put them in a pile out back." The pile became a wall after a couple million years. :P

The false are those that betrayed the god they previously were somehow sworn to. These get the punishments.
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Copper Elven Vampire
Senior Scribe

699 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2020 :  03:01:37  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's quite dumb to place the atheist PC's and NPC's at some waiting-room wall. But I understand no need to create a realm just for atheists. I am a Atheist IRL 46 years old and an avid FR geek. I see no need for a wall for the faithless. It's broken.

In my campaigns.... we leave it up to the gods to decide who gets that particular card. A Elf, human, Gnoll, Gnome, whatever.... that doesn't have a deity goes to a wall in death? Seems cruel and broken to me.
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keftiu
Learned Scribe

145 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2020 :  08:02:25  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

I think that the main issues with the Faithless and the False are that there is no real-world comparison.

In the Realms, the gods are REAL, you see them they do things they are active in everyone's life to some extent. Therefore everyone KNOWS the gods are real. If you're a farmer, the Chauntea has your back. You'd be a fool not to offer a prayer when planting. If you're a soldier then look there's several stalwart deities to choose from. There is a god or goddess for everyone.

The faithless are those that, knowing the gods exist, choose to shun the gods outright anyways. Like many of the ancient Netherese who denied the divinity of the gods and therefore offered them no praise. Now the reason they go to the wall seems simple to me - souls have to go somewhere. Like gods they are REAL in this game AND they have power. The whole system of the gods is based on the balance of this power so they had to decide what to do with those souls that "belonged" to none of them. "Just put them in a pile out back." The pile became a wall after a couple million years. :P

The false are those that betrayed the god they previously were somehow sworn to. These get the punishments.




I think you're reading a lot of antagonism into a choice not to praise, revere, or seek aid from a god. Sure, the gods are real, but why does that mean any given person needs to be beholden to one? Someone who lives an honest, humble life could very well see no need to beseech great cosmic beings, whether because they're content with the flow of things as is or simply don't feel the need.

Under the current system, someone who has a normal childhood, learns a craft, and works it until they die, making no enemies, committing no sins, and otherwise being wholly unobjectionable faces an eternity mortared into a wall of essentially-damned souls until their identity slowly bleeds from them over the ages, just because they never asked for Chauntea's aid in the field or Gond's blessing at the anvil.

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6972 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2020 :  08:58:19  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Wall might not be such a cruel punishment for some. Especially those who would otherwise endure an eternity of Shar's oblivion, Loviatar's whippings, Cyric's madness, Asmodeus's infernal hospitality, etc.

At least The Wall places you in contact with like-minded souls. It can be a place of insightful contemplation and informative discussion.

It's not like they kick or throw things at The Wall, set it afire, or urinate on it. It's simply ignored (as much as possible) so the souls within it can enjoy the afterlife they've so rightfully earned.

[/Ayrik]
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3145 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2020 :  14:34:25  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

I think that the main issues with the Faithless and the False are that there is no real-world comparison.

In the Realms, the gods are REAL, you see them they do things they are active in everyone's life to some extent. Therefore everyone KNOWS the gods are real. If you're a farmer, the Chauntea has your back. You'd be a fool not to offer a prayer when planting. If you're a soldier then look there's several stalwart deities to choose from. There is a god or goddess for everyone.

The faithless are those that, knowing the gods exist, choose to shun the gods outright anyways. Like many of the ancient Netherese who denied the divinity of the gods and therefore offered them no praise. Now the reason they go to the wall seems simple to me - souls have to go somewhere. Like gods they are REAL in this game AND they have power. The whole system of the gods is based on the balance of this power so they had to decide what to do with those souls that "belonged" to none of them. "Just put them in a pile out back." The pile became a wall after a couple million years. :P

The false are those that betrayed the god they previously were somehow sworn to. These get the punishments.




I think you're reading a lot of antagonism into a choice not to praise, revere, or seek aid from a god. Sure, the gods are real, but why does that mean any given person needs to be beholden to one? Someone who lives an honest, humble life could very well see no need to beseech great cosmic beings, whether because they're content with the flow of things as is or simply don't feel the need.

Under the current system, someone who has a normal childhood, learns a craft, and works it until they die, making no enemies, committing no sins, and otherwise being wholly unobjectionable faces an eternity mortared into a wall of essentially-damned souls until their identity slowly bleeds from them over the ages, just because they never asked for Chauntea's aid in the field or Gond's blessing at the anvil.



That's why, when I have to run FR, I have it that a given person is claimed by the deity whose beliefs influenced their life the most. The crafter in your example would still be claimed by, say, Gond.

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Edited by - Irennan on 23 Feb 2020 14:34:47
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keftiu
Learned Scribe

145 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2020 :  17:09:22  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

The Wall might not be such a cruel punishment for some. Especially those who would otherwise endure an eternity of Shar's oblivion, Loviatar's whippings, Cyric's madness, Asmodeus's infernal hospitality, etc.

At least The Wall places you in contact with like-minded souls. It can be a place of insightful contemplation and informative discussion.

It's not like they kick or throw things at The Wall, set it afire, or urinate on it. It's simply ignored (as much as possible) so the souls within it can enjoy the afterlife they've so rightfully earned.



I’d rather oblivion upon death than who knows how long imprisoned and immobile until I eventually forget myself over the long ages.

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1502 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2020 :  17:43:42  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

The Wall was created by Myrkul. The most logical explanation is that the powers who opposed him couldn't countermand his judgement, as he was god of the dead and was acting within the bounds of his authority.

Myrkul interpreting his job in the cruelest manner possible was still doing his job and not treading on anyone's toes, and as a necromancer in life, he probably considered it one gigantic experiment into the nature of souls.



This makes sense when Myrkul was the god of the dead, as he is Evilish Evildoer of Evil with capital E, and the Wall is obviously an evil thing. It makes no sense at all now that Kelemvor is the god of the dead.

To me, it just another attempt of TSR of enforcing real life stuff into the Realms. In this particular instance, an equivalent of Christian Hell (as the actual Christian Hell is already taken and cannot be used as a punishment).

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6972 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2020 :  21:01:12  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Myrkul the god of Death. And Decay. As in the natural circle-of-life sort of decay, not the sort of corrupt rotting unnatural decay preferred by Moander.

Souls are born, live, die, then get processed for an afterlife. Once all the gods and goddesses and powers and celestials and devils and hags have finished picking through the pile and claiming every soul they deem "worthy" there's still a bunch of leftover dregs and refuse that nobody needs and nobody wants. Obdurate and willful souls, thorny, belligerent, nonconforming, useless grit which will accumulate and impede the eternal spinnings of the Great Wheel.

Myrkul claims these. He uses them as raw material for a monument which will serve as a message and a warning to mortals - worship the Powers That Be or This Is What Happens to you. Not Myrkul's fault that The Wall became a useful security feature and a stylistic bling surrounding his Realm. You can't blame him for the stubbornly indomitable willfulness of some mortals. They were informed and they still made their (wrong) choice.

It seems to me that since Myrkul is big on natural decay then he also made The Wall to be something like a spiritual compost heap. Designed to erode souls, grind and break them back down into fundamental soulstuff which can be replanted or reused to sustain new growth. Myrkul is basically trying to plant or tend a garden, part of his job is getting rid of weeds.

God of Death. And Decay. And Rebirth. Myrkul is the god people invoke with prayers and pleas for resurrections.
It makes sense that if people are praying for someone who was deliberately impious (or who just "wouldn't want it any other way") they'd appeal to Myrkul for a reincarnation instead.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 23 Feb 2020 21:29:53
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Demzer
Senior Scribe

711 Posts

Posted - 24 Feb 2020 :  14:20:53  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Uhm, I've tried staying away from this topic because it easily makes tempers flare but I feel there are a bit too many misconceptions being fueled here which I feel stem from drawing parallels with our real world where they don't belong.

[DISCLAIMER: everything below is based off of "canon" material (which I don't have time to hunt down at the moment, sorry) and then goes on with my personal interpretation of how it should be read and interpreted and how to make it work with the setting, it works at my table, obviously you do whatever you want at your own]

I would also like to avoid trying to divine the intentions of whoever came up with the idea back in the day and think of the explanations within the setting.

Toril has multiple pantheons, each with at least a handful of gods (except for a few of the most obscure/alien races) and mortal beings are acutely aware of the working of various gods during their everyday lives. We know through Ed (and common sense, to be honest) that the overwhelming majority of those people are not monotheists in the sense that through prayers and actions they revere or at least acknowledge multiple divine beings. This is true even for most of the clergies (clerics and paladins and similar types) who, even if they hold one patron above any other, still acknowledge and respect other deities, even if only a handful (think of the Triad, the Deities of Fury, the Deities of Knowledge, even Bane and his lackeys, etc...). On Toril it takes a very obstinate, stubborn, misguided or stupid being to be a full blown monotheist of the kind we have on our own world. On the other end of the spectrum it takes a similar type of being to refuse any acknowledgement of the reality of the divine.

I cannot scour for exact sources now (I think it's the only good thing Troy Denning did in his novels and was later confirmed by Ed, but I'm not 100% sure) but we know that in the Realms if you upheld the ideals of a deity even without paying "lip-service" you are awarded an afterlife with that deity unless your soul refuses it (mortals are always given a choice).

Now the problem I see in this discussion is that people seem to have their own life experience cloud they readings of this fantasy situation and expect anyone in-setting to have to "pay tribute" to a deity to get an afterlife worth mentioning. This is not the case in the Realms, simply put.
Most of the deities of the Realms care not only about the people that explicitly paid them homage and tribute in life but also about the people that through their action and example upheld their values and their world-view, be it nurturing fields and crops or unleashing rivers of blood by defeating all your foes.

The aforementioned case of the perfect farmer that never in his/her life thought of the Nature gods (which is kind of preposterous in-setting for the pervasiveness of the divine in the Realms, but whatever) and is then at risk of being judged Faithless is baseless. This is because in the Realms said farmer would have nurtured his/her crops and livestock and cared for the land and his/her household and fought off vermins and diseases and worked for the balance of civilisation and nature and will be rewarded with a pastoral and bucolic afterlife in the warm embrace of Chauntea (or one of the other Nature dieties, depending on personal inclinations). I really don't see why said farmer would refuse an afterlife tailored on the best aspects of his/her own mortal lifespan if granted the chance.

The same is true for the archetypical craftsperson being "collected" by Gond to live forevermore in a land of costant discovery or the peerless hunter chasing all kinds of preys in the hunting grounds of Malar the Beastlord. And so on and on.

All the above would make the existence of the Wall of the Faithless kind of useless in modern day (be it late 1300s or late 1400s) Faerun for the very few number of people ending up there, so why was it made and what's it made of if there are only a handful of souls to mortar it?

First of all, Myrkul did it, just after the Fall of Netheril and, as several already pointed out, Netheril was a time full of people purposefully ignoring and challenging the gods. Also the Fall of Netheril was a very traumatic event for the populations involved and as an aftershock effect I expect a lot of people to vehemently reject the divine (and die).

This means that Myrkul came into office with an influx of souls either always enstranged to the divine (arcanists and upper echelon) or disaffected to the point of challenging it (most of the common people dying left right and center and wanting to stick it to the divine patrons that didn't protect them well enough). Also he had to deal with all the minions of Jergal which in life were mortals antagonistic to the divine and were of dubious loyalty.
A kinder being would have thought of something cool and peaceful to deal with the unrest, Myrkul stuffed them all in a wall and had his priests spread the word that you ended up there if you didn't behave.

What happened during and after the Fall of Netheril probably also happened (with regional differences) at the fall of every big empire/civilisation. Likewise, I'm pretty sure all powerful and mighty empires harboured people that actively rejected their gods.

So during "normal" times the Wall doesn't see much activity except from the demonic assaults while during intense periods of strife and catastrophe (Fall of Netheril, Time of Troubles, Spellplague, ecc...) or at the height of magically mighty empires (Netheril, Imaskar, ecc...) there is an higher influx of souls for it.

As for why Kelemvor didn't get rid of it, I suppose it's because he would need to think of something for all the souls that are already in there and there is nothing else fitting (and probably the other deities would not like him claiming uncountable souls for his own just to get rid of the Wall), also it actually effectively prevents other, "more worthy", souls from getting snatched by demons and I think Jergal will tell anyone in office to think very carefully about moving away from the past.

As said in the disclaimer, that's how I interpret the canonical information we have on the Wall, your mileage may vary.

There are only two points that I would like people to actually take a step back and think hard on and these are:
1) check your atheism/agnosticism/general faith at the door because we are talking about a fantasy setting with a few gods of oozes(!), a lot of the points raised in the discussion interpret the gods (all of them) as malevolent power hungry billionaires toying with mortal souls and call into question monotheism which is basically non-existent in the setting;
2) Myrkul did it, not "the Christians", as much as I understand in our modern world it's more fashionable to claim faith in Banjo the Clown than Christianity, it gets tiring seeing in a forum on a fantasy setting my faith being called out quite explicitly without reason, I would like to be afforded the same amount of respect anyone of any other belief seems to be entitled to;
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3145 Posts

Posted - 24 Feb 2020 :  16:14:05  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As you point out, the Wall would be essentially pointless most of the time, and it works the way it does because Myrkul created it, but there are a couple points that puzzle me.

First, I guess that Kelemvor could come up with better uses for the souls of the faithless than making a wall out of them (especially since, in his own domain, it would take Kelemvor nothing to just replace the wall). Putting them at work like the false, for example. The number of souls wouldn't even be that large, especially on a cosmic scale.

I also find the idea of walling the souls of people who are disillusioned with the divine due to hard times problematic. Simply because most of them have likely upheld some kind of ideal, or dedicated themselves to something in their life, so--if saying "f*ck the gods, they're useless"--is their sin, I think that there are many deities who would find the compassion to take many of them in their realm, rather than condemning them. For this reason, I'm not sure that many would end up in the wall, leaving only a very small number of souls collected over the eras (those who had the power--be it might or influence--to truly act on the "damn the gods" thoughts, and who actually did it) to form it. Which would lead me to question how such a large wall exists

Presentation also matters, and while the system that you decribe is how I have it when I run FR, this info should be all gathered in one place and be easily accessible, not scattered among many sources. Especially with all the opportunities to do this in newer sources. It's easy to understand why people form a wrong idea of the Wall, if all they read is "the Wall is where the souls of the faithless disappear forever"

Good points, though.

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Edited by - Irennan on 24 Feb 2020 16:18:52
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1502 Posts

Posted - 24 Feb 2020 :  16:33:17  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

On Toril it takes a very obstinate, stubborn, misguided or stupid being to be a full blown monotheist of the kind we have on our own world. On the other end of the spectrum it takes a similar type of being to refuse any acknowledgement of the reality of the divine.



This was true, until the Spellplague happened. And if we are hunting down canon bits to justify that ugly Wall, we have to take into account that, in canon, there are literally a few hundreds immigrants from a world were gods didn't existed. If in Toril the existence of a god is an actual fact, then in Abeir the actual fact is that the gods don't exist there. This is a canon fact, even if people doesn't like the current Realms and tend to ignore them.

Then, under the rules of Toril, all of those Abeiran expatriates are condemned to the Wall just because they don't believe in gods, because in their world they lived for hundreds of years knowing that the gods didn't existed, and the ones who "existed" were self-proclaimed mortals with great egos (also an actual fact in their world). And no, you cannot change such an ingrained perception in just 100 years. That is not how cultures work. If you look a the real world history of religions, it takes at least a few centuries for a religion to take root in a given culture (300 years for Christianity; I expect 150-200 years with actual gods proselytizing).

And even with extreme proselytizing, the Abeirans may reject gods just because past experiences ("oh, yeah, yours is a 'good' god? That dragon overlord from Abeir said the same, and she enslaved all my ancestors. Thank you, next").

The perfect farmer of Abeiran descent (for instance) knows that them can do amazing work without the help of any "god". And that any "god" offering free help may as well be seeking to enslave them (or worse, eat them) and all their family and friends, because this happened to their grandmama back in Abeir. So, this farmer most likely is going to reject Chauntea out of justified mistrust, and guess were their soul is going to end?

This is one of greatest injustices of the current Realms, that makes the so-called "good" gods the biggest hypocrites of all. And that is just one of the flaws of the Wall of the Faithless.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 24 Feb 2020 16:57:00
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Demzer
Senior Scribe

711 Posts

Posted - 24 Feb 2020 :  17:01:20  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

I also find the idea of walling the souls of people who are disillusioned with the divine due to hard times problematic. Simply because most of them have likely upheld some kind of ideal, or dedicated themselves to something in their life, so--if saying "f*ck the gods, they're useless"--is their sin, I think that there are many deities who would find the compassion to take many of them in their realm, rather than condemning them. For this reason, I'm not sure that many would end up in the wall, leaving only a very small number of souls collected over the eras (those who had the power--be it might or influence--to truly act on the "damn the gods" thoughts, and who actually did it) to form it. Which would lead me to question how such a large wall exists



The fine print is where I disagree.

I actually think each soul (not each god) has final say over where it ends up, meaning that if people died disaffected and wanted to stick it to the gods despite being offered an afterlife by a god that closely matched their outlook then they will be judged Faithless. I expect that during Myrkul's reign not everything was spelled out clearly while I guess Kelemvor would lay out every alternative in excruciating detail (I ignore Cyric's reign as I don't think I knew what he was doing).

So during Myrkul's realms it was something like:
Myrkul: "Hey mortal, god so-and-so says you can go to his/her domain but you are free to refuse, what do you say?"
Disaffected mortal: "F**k you all I didn't deserve to die! I don't want no gods!"
Myrkul: "Fine, off to the Wall you go, kthxbai!"
Disaffected mortal: "Wait wha..." [gets plastered]

While during Kelemvor's reign more something like:
Kelemvor: "Hey John/Jane Doe, god so-and-so says you can go to his/her domain but you are free to refuse, what do you say?"
Disaffected mortal: "F**k you all I didn't deserve to die! I don't want no gods!"
Kelemvor: "Ok, this means you will end up in the Wall of the Faithless and your consciousness will dissolve over time into nothingness"
Disaffected mortal: "Hang on a minute ... let me think about this ..."

Otherwise, as you point out, the existence of such a big wall made out of souls would be difficult to explain with a short number of Faithless available.
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Demzer
Senior Scribe

711 Posts

Posted - 24 Feb 2020 :  17:11:38  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
This is one of greatest injustices of the current Realms, that makes the so-called "good" gods the biggest hypocrites of all. And that is just one of the flaws of the Wall of the Faithless.



So you automatically assume that gods that represent the best aspects of human life, some of which sacrificed a lot for their mortal followers for eons untold, are just standing by and tossing souls to the Wall because they don't give a s**t and it's all a big lie ... instead of, you know, maybe understanding how the afterlife worked in Abeir, since, as far as I am aware, people died in Abeir too before the merging?

Considering that other pantheons with racial deities of death receive their own treatment it means that there are already exception to the main Faerunian pantheon way of handling things. Also considering that people died on Abeir without any godly intervention (in any direction), I would not automatically assume the dragonborn are screwed.

Going on a wild guess, since I really don't know, taking into account the more "primal" and elemental nature of Abeir I can hypothesise that the souls of whoever dies there end up in the old way, feeding the Planes.

I would not automatically assume that since no word has been said in canon print about dragonborn afterlife than all of Toril's goodly divine beings are d**ks because ... well that's not very logical ...

At the end of the story, Lord Ao is calling the shots in both worlds and I'm assuming there is already an "Aberian soul-processing procedure 101.pdf" file he/she/it can slip into Kelemvors hands to get the dragonborn their due.
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1502 Posts

Posted - 24 Feb 2020 :  20:40:12  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer


So you automatically assume that gods that represent the best aspects of human life, some of which sacrificed a lot for their mortal followers for eons untold, are just standing by and tossing souls to the Wall because they don't give a s**t and it's all a big lie ... instead of, you know, maybe understanding how the afterlife worked in Abeir, since, as far as I am aware, people died in Abeir too before the merging?

Considering that other pantheons with racial deities of death receive their own treatment it means that there are already exception to the main Faerunian pantheon way of handling things. Also considering that people died on Abeir without any godly intervention (in any direction), I would not automatically assume the dragonborn are screwed.

Going on a wild guess, since I really don't know, taking into account the more "primal" and elemental nature of Abeir I can hypothesise that the souls of whoever dies there end up in the old way, feeding the Planes.

I would not automatically assume that since no word has been said in canon print about dragonborn afterlife than all of Toril's goodly divine beings are d**ks because ... well that's not very logical ...

At the end of the story, Lord Ao is calling the shots in both worlds and I'm assuming there is already an "Aberian soul-processing procedure 101.pdf" file he/she/it can slip into Kelemvors hands to get the dragonborn their due.



If we go by canon, yes. I'm going to ignore the LFR adventures as they are of dubious canonicity, but if you read any canon sources (sourcebooks, magazines and novels) about the Abeiran displaced lands, the only church you're going to find is the Church of Bahamut in Tymanther. And then, the Church of Enlil, also in Tymanther, but that is from a "recent" novel. So, for like a century, the only god interested in the souls of the Abeirans (or the dragonborn, in this case) was Bahamut. A whole country of tens of thousands potential worshipers, and just one god trying to convert them (yeah, a few dragonborn worship other gods, but those converts are on an individual basis, not organized churches or even cults).

And this leaves out places such as Akanûl and Laerakond (a whole continent), that have no god vying for those souls.

So, if we go by the canon materials, the gods are not trying to convert the Abeirans, even when gods gain a lot from worshipers. To me, this means two things: either the gods are holding back for some reasons, or they are not interested in the Abeirans, and are in a diva attitude of "you must come to me", that I don't see as something "good". And seeing how Enlil came out from nowhere and began to claim dragonborn worshipers without no one saying nothing about it, I guess there is no restriction in the Abeiran souls.

And if a god is not interested in a soul, and such soul is not interested in a god (even if such lack of interest is justifiable), then I guess those souls are going to be mortared in the Wall.

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Seethyr
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Posted - 24 Feb 2020 :  22:10:01  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
.
There are only two points that I would like people to actually take a step back and think hard on and these are:
1) check your atheism/agnosticism/general faith at the door because we are talking about a fantasy setting with a few gods of oozes(!), a lot of the points raised in the discussion interpret the gods (all of them) as malevolent power hungry billionaires toying with mortal souls and call into question monotheism which is basically non-existent in the setting;
2) Myrkul did it, not "the Christians", as much as I understand in our modern world it's more fashionable to claim faith in Banjo the Clown than Christianity, it gets tiring seeing in a forum on a fantasy setting my faith being called out quite explicitly without reason, I would like to be afforded the same amount of respect anyone of any other belief seems to be entitled to;



I often stay out of these discussions myself, but this response deserves quite a bit of love. Seconded.

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Edited by - Seethyr on 24 Feb 2020 22:17:59
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 25 Feb 2020 :  01:52:41  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A recent Twitter exchange from Ed:

quote:
@Razzelmire

@TheEdVerse went on Twitter just to ask this. Is Kelemvor in charge of all souls or Faerunian pantheon only? What about Mulhorandi pantheon? Do Giant, Dragon, Mind Flayer, Elf, Dwarf, etc souls go to him or to their own respective judgments?


@TheEdVerse

Kelemvor’s clergy will tell you that Kelemvor governs the fate of all souls. However, this is (honestly believed by those who say it) church propaganda. In other words, it isn’t true; the truth is that Kelemvor can’t even keep up with judging all Faerûnian pantheon=worshipping human souls. So, yes, the souls of nonhuman beings go to other judges and judgments, some souls get lost and “wander,” and humans who worship the Mulhorandi pantheon or other deities not of Toril encounter other judges. It seems to vary on a case-by-case basis, which really means mortals are struggling to understand the afterlife, and various faiths are attempting to provide answers which likely have more to do with reassurance and doctrine than reality. Or to put it in the very apt words of a real-world faith: “It’s a mystery.”
#Realmslore


So not all of the dead go to Kelemvor; he only sees worshippers of the Faerûnian pantheon. So followers of other pantheons go elsewhere.

This would mean that whether on Faerûn, Abeir, or Laerakond, dead Abeirrans go to whatever fate awaited their ancestors. Kelemvor doesn't get them unless they convert, and either way, they don't go into the Wall.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 25 Feb 2020 01:59:23
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader

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Posted - 25 Feb 2020 :  08:09:06  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

I feel there are a bit too many misconceptions being fueled here which I feel stem from drawing parallels with our real world where they don't belong.



My point, succinctly put
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Demzer
Senior Scribe

711 Posts

Posted - 25 Feb 2020 :  10:39:12  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

If we go by canon, yes. I'm going to ignore the LFR adventures as they are of dubious canonicity, but if you read any canon sources (sourcebooks, magazines and novels) about the Abeiran displaced lands, the only church you're going to find is the Church of Bahamut in Tymanther. And then, the Church of Enlil, also in Tymanther, but that is from a "recent" novel. So, for like a century, the only god interested in the souls of the Abeirans (or the dragonborn, in this case) was Bahamut. A whole country of tens of thousands potential worshipers, and just one god trying to convert them (yeah, a few dragonborn worship other gods, but those converts are on an individual basis, not organized churches or even cults).

And this leaves out places such as Akanûl and Laerakond (a whole continent), that have no god vying for those souls.

So, if we go by the canon materials, the gods are not trying to convert the Abeirans, even when gods gain a lot from worshipers. To me, this means two things: either the gods are holding back for some reasons, or they are not interested in the Abeirans, and are in a diva attitude of "you must come to me", that I don't see as something "good". And seeing how Enlil came out from nowhere and began to claim dragonborn worshipers without no one saying nothing about it, I guess there is no restriction in the Abeiran souls.

And if a god is not interested in a soul, and such soul is not interested in a god (even if such lack of interest is justifiable), then I guess those souls are going to be mortared in the Wall.



But these canon information you cite, to me only tell that in some places the Faerunian (well more the Untheric) pantheon is encroaching on the dragonborn and trying to get converts. Just like the Faerunian pantheon was doing in the Old Empires pre-Spellplague, trying to get a foothold somewhere they had no power previously and get those souls too.

But just like with the Mulhorandi and Untheri and Chessentan who followed their own gods of old, the Abeirans are probably not subject to the dictates of Kelemvor and the Faerunian pantheon.

Wooly fished out the tweet by Ed I was referring to before and I agree with the following:

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

So not all of the dead go to Kelemvor; he only sees worshippers of the Faerûnian pantheon. So followers of other pantheons go elsewhere.

This would mean that whether on Faerûn, Abeir, or Laerakond, dead Abeirrans go to whatever fate awaited their ancestors. Kelemvor doesn't get them unless they convert, and either way, they don't go into the Wall.



In hundreds of years of time, maybe, if most of the dragonborn and genasi and whatever else came from Abeir convert (which is not a given, as you [Zeromaru X] were pointing out how on Abeir the concept of divinity and "patrons" is completely different) then they will be subject to Kelemvor's (or whoever will be the Faerunian God of Death then) rules. But for the time being it seems much easier to me to assume that the Abeiran souls keep following their old path to the afterlife, be it instantaneous oblivion, reincarnation, dissolvence into the Planes or whatever they did for millenia before the merging of the worlds.

Assuming that the good gods are not trying to get converts among the Abeirans because they are acting like divas shows a clear bias on the idea of divinity and religion which doesn't belong in the setting.
A much more reasonable assumption would be to think that most good gods respect the Abeirans traditions and indipendence and don't want to even try conversions.

I also think that if everyone (every god) started blurring the philosophical border of what region/ethnic group is or isn't within the Faerunian pantheon (in the case of a big wave of proselytisation that involved a lot of different churches) then you will have problems with Kelemvor having "legal grounds" to process Abeiran souls and then some (probably a lot of) people might get screwed.

Of course this is all interpretation of the scattered information we have but I like it better when new and old "canon" are gelled together to make sense (ie the good gods have a good reason to not touch the Abeirans) then jumping to conclusions which would invalidate a lot of well established facts (ie Ilmater fought for millenia against oppression and tyranny and slavery ... and then stands by while thousands or possibly millions of souls get damned for eternity without giving a s**t).

Edited by - Demzer on 25 Feb 2020 10:45:38
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
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Posted - 25 Feb 2020 :  12:42:19  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I stand corrected, then. Though I still don't like the idea of that ugly Wall looming in my Realms..

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 25 Feb 2020 :  15:52:55  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I stand corrected, then. Though I still don't like the idea of that ugly Wall looming in my Realms..




The Wall is more problematic than it's worth, at the moment... But it's also something that has almost no bearing on anything -- it's not like it's going to come up in game play, unless you either deliberately bring it into focus or you've got a Faithless (N)PC who can't avoid getting killed.

It's like worrying about Halruaa when your characters never leave the Heartlands.

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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1502 Posts

Posted - 26 Feb 2020 :  00:20:51  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, you're right. However, I guess that is like when people dislikes something so hard, they don't want it near lol. Like those people that complaints about 4e, but don't even have the books...

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