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 Why didn't prior deaths cause Spellplagues?
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keftiu
Learned Scribe

143 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2020 :  02:47:43  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
We saw the death of Mystra during the Time of Troubles, and Mystryl before her likewise died, but neither event caused anything near the Spellplague's destruction. In canon, is there a reason why?

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Ayrik
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Canada
6969 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2020 :  03:22:15  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Time of Troubles was still comparably destructive across Toril. It just didn't span the cosmos or drag Abeir into the mess.

Possibly because Mystra had already invested "shards" of her divinity into living vessels - one of singular potency being the woman Midnight who became the new Mystra.

Possibly because Ao directly imposed himself on the crisis. He was fundamentally concerned with "restoring balance" to the Realms (and evidently had to submit status reports to his overgodly peers or overgodly boss) so he may have mitigated or contained damage to the Realms.

Mystra actually supplanted Mystril when Karsus invoked Netheril's Fall, (momentarily) inravelled the Weave, and fundamentally changed the nature (rules) of magic forever.

But I don't think any official canon explanation has ever been offered. The Spellplague was a calamity on every world (especially those worlds with stores selling D&D-branded merchandise) while the other Mystra interregna were essentially confined to the Realms and adjacent settings.

[/Ayrik]
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
32857 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2020 :  04:35:56  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

We saw the death of Mystra during the Time of Troubles, and Mystryl before her likewise died, but neither event caused anything near the Spellplague's destruction. In canon, is there a reason why?



This is one of the reasons I've long had an issue with the whole Spellplague idea.

I seem to recall something saying that Abeir just happened to be in phase with Toril when Mystra was murdered -- whatever the smurf that's supposed to mean. And it was because of this highly improbable plot convenience that everything went kablooie -- except, of course, the stuff that was protected by plot armor and thus didn't go kablooie.

So while some areas of high magic usage blew up, other areas with high magic use were somehow unaffected. We've got Schrodinger's Magical Jumping Nuke going off in Halruaa, outer planes that had nothing to do with magic getting rearranged, all sorts of nonsense -- just because this convergence just happened to happen at the exact same instant as an event that had happened multiple times before without anywhere near the illogical chaos. We also had minor details like the sea level dropping a specified amount, but somehow dropping further where it would be cooler, all without affecting the coastline at all or weather patterns or anything.

This is another of those things that fails the Madcoil Test for me: a series of wildly improbable things happened because of a wildly improbable coincidence.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 11 Feb 2020 04:38:22
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TheIriaeban
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USA
137 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2020 :  15:41:11  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

We saw the death of Mystra during the Time of Troubles, and Mystryl before her likewise died, but neither event caused anything near the Spellplague's destruction. In canon, is there a reason why?



This is one of the reasons I've long had an issue with the whole Spellplague idea.

I seem to recall something saying that Abeir just happened to be in phase with Toril when Mystra was murdered -- whatever the smurf that's supposed to mean. And it was because of this highly improbable plot convenience that everything went kablooie -- except, of course, the stuff that was protected by plot armor and thus didn't go kablooie.

So while some areas of high magic usage blew up, other areas with high magic use were somehow unaffected. We've got Schrodinger's Magical Jumping Nuke going off in Halruaa, outer planes that had nothing to do with magic getting rearranged, all sorts of nonsense -- just because this convergence just happened to happen at the exact same instant as an event that had happened multiple times before without anywhere near the illogical chaos. We also had minor details like the sea level dropping a specified amount, but somehow dropping further where it would be cooler, all without affecting the coastline at all or weather patterns or anything.

This is another of those things that fails the Madcoil Test for me: a series of wildly improbable things happened because of a wildly improbable coincidence.



I would guess that is where the Church of the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen got it's start. Because a Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen is actually more logical than the Spellplague.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
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TheIriaeban
Learned Scribe

USA
137 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2020 :  16:10:10  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

We saw the death of Mystra during the Time of Troubles, and Mystryl before her likewise died, but neither event caused anything near the Spellplague's destruction. In canon, is there a reason why?



I have a theory why it happened. It goes back to the very creation of the goddess of magic. The story is that Selune ripped a portion of herself out and threw it through Shar which ripped a portion of her out and those two pieces became Mystryl, goddes of magic. Selune did this to make sure that Shar wouldn't have any control over magic.

My theory is that the portion from Selune was the Weave and the portion from Shar was the Shadow Weave. So, Mystryl had control of both which is why you didn't hear of it back then. So, when Karsus took control, he took control of both and then Mystra was born and she got control of both.

Now then, in the Time of Troubles, Mystra wasn't reborn, she passed her power off to someone else. Midnight had no idea about the Shadow Weave (neither did Azuth, her primary advisor) so Shar was able to just claim that back because control of the Shadow Weave was "abandoned" through ignorance of its existance.

That brings us back to the Spellplague. At that point, you had two different beings controlling the Weave and the Shadow Weave. The controlling being for the Weave was killed but not the one for Shadow Weave. At that point, magic was wildly out of balance and thus, the Spellplague happened. Things didn't go back to normal until a new Mystra was "born". Selune COULD have retrieved control of the Weave (just like Shar had control of her portion of magic: the Shadow Weave) but that would have guaranteed that Mystra would not have been reborn. Selune decided to take the long view and let things just go to crap for a bit (what is 10 years to a god) until Mystra came back. Oh, and Shar will never get control of the Weave simply because it is a part of Selune and they are completely incompatible. Now, if Shar would give the Shadow Weave back to Mystra, the Spellplague won't happen again if Mystra is killed. Hopefully, Shar learned her lesson.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
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Irennan
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Italy
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Posted - 11 Feb 2020 :  16:18:10  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sadly, a lot of 4e changes were just driven by design choices with little to no care for previous lore (or, at times, exploring logical consequences).

There's a canon explanation, however, provided by Ed. Basically, the Weave had been worn out by previous deaths and by reckless use of magic during the Age of Upheaval, and needed to be rebooted to avoid some cataclysmic event (since without the Weave, raw magic would flare up in a gigantic burst, killing everything, per "Magic of Faerun"). Before proceeding with this process, Mystra set up a lot of contingencies, because she had foreseen that hard times were coming for her and her allies, so she put up a lot of plans to save allied deities, etc... However, in the middle of this, Cyric came and apparently killed her. While the contingencies already put in place held up, this event was the last strain, and the cataclysm happened. However, Mystra didn't die; she was severly weakened and forced to hide. Likewise, the Weave wasn't destroyed, but it survived in strands (and some of the deities that Mystra protected were hidden in these strands--Ed told us about like Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, but I guess they were not the only ones). At some point, Mystra was restored thanks to various events, and she and the chosen proceeded to complete the restore the Weave, completing what she had started 1 century before.

The fun part is this explanation only came out in a 5e transition novel.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 11 Feb 2020 17:58:41
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Grumpy Hamatula
Seeker

22 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2020 :  17:14:08  Show Profile Send Grumpy Hamatula a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If I recall correctly, there was also some sort of resonance of the Tearfall (-31k DR) and the First Sundering (-17.6k DR) with the Second Sundering. Would this perhaps have had some effect that might have amplified the effect of the death/presumed death of Mystra?
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1492 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2020 :  17:31:36  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, one thing to take into account is that the whole "the Spellplague is a consequence of Mystra's death" is just what the sages of the late 1400s DR believe. This is stated in both the 4e FRCG and in the lore of the Neverwinter MMO.

There are a few counter theories revealed in official products, though scattered in many products of the time, and so not easily "trackeable". These theories exists because, as you've mentioned, the sages of the Realms also have taken into account the previous deaths of Mystra (and this is stated in a novel and in the MMO).

Wooly already mentioned one, that is stated in the FRCG: that Abeir just happened to be in phase with Toril when Mystra was murdered, and this aggravated the situation. The FRCG elaborates more on this, saying that the exchange of lands between the planets has been happened since the Time of Troubles, just that it was so minor that most people didn't notice it. The Spellplague just worsened the exchange of lands.

Another reason given in the FRCG is that, with Mystra dead, the Weave and the Shadow Weave collapsed and blew up together (Ed said recently, on Twitter, that this happened because the Shadow Weave was a weaker byproduct of the Weave that cannot sustain itself without the main Weave).

In the Abolethic Sovereignty novels, another theory is given: according to one of the characters, one of the most powerful elder evils that was trapped in Stardeep fled from its imprisonment some time before Mystra was murdered. The character believes that the Spellplague happened because of this, or as a mix of both events, the escape and the murder.

In the talks about the Second Sundering and 5e that were held in 2012, WotC staffers said that the Spellplague happened because the Tablets of Fate were destroyed by Ao and this event unraveled the laws of reality in Realmspace. The Spellplague was just the most noticeable effect of this event.

In the Neverwinter MMO, the sages from the Arcane Brotherhood and the wizards who studied the Chasm in the city believe that the Spellplague happened because some Far Realm plot. The fact that beings from the Far Realm (such as members of the aforementioned Abolethic Sovereignty) are interested in studying and cultivate the Spellplague (in both the MMO and the NCS sourcebook) gives credence from this theory. There are a lot of quests in the MMO related to this theory. While I haven't read them yet, the Empyrean Odyssey novels also seem to support this as well.

This theory is expanded upon in the non-canon LFR adventures. In the final adventure of the program, is revealed that Shar used energy from the Far Realm to power up Cyric when he was about to kill Mystra. This has the unforeseen effect of transforming Cyric madness into a physical form of energy, that "plagued" the Weave and defiled it. Things went out of control, Shar lost her grasp of this energy and all went kaboodle. Its said Ao was unable to stop this because the Far Realm lies beyond the Realmspace, and he has no power there.

Sadly, this is from a non-canon source, so it couldn't be used to explain the event.

And there is also the possibility that the Spellplague was a consequence of all of these events. As Wooly said, the Spellplague may have happened because a series of wildly improbable things happened all at the same time because of a wildly improbable coincidence.

In the end the truth was left for the DM to explain. IMC, part of the blame was because certain hero destroyed the Wall of the Faithless and got rid of that stuff, but in doing so left the fabric of reality weakened.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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sleyvas
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USA
8542 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2020 :  17:38:30  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not Canon, but possibly the best work around for WHY it didn't occur in the ToT is because she wasn't at her full power at that time. Essentially, Ao had taken the reins a bit so to speak from all the gods. There was still fallout, but it wasn't as bad.

When the original Mystryl died though, we know that magic failed the world around. We don't know for how long there were issues, but apparently most magic failed for a short time. We also know that magic changed after this and in a big way. There were no longer 10th to 12th level spells. In theory, something similar to the spellplague may have happened, with a need to rediscover how magic had changed, etc.... and thus there were no more netherese arcanists, but there were now "magic-users" in the world, etc.... and after the ToT magic twisted again and "specialist wizards" came about. What could be said though on the "specialist" wizards is that Thay had been studying the schools of magic very intently and perhaps their studies helped transition things.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1492 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2020 :  17:45:27  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Sadly, a lot of 4e changes were just driven by design choices with little to no care for previous lore (or, at times, exploring logical consequences).

Ed gave an explanation, however. Basically, the Weave had been worn out by previous deaths and by reckless use of magic during the Age of Upheaval, and needed to be rebooted to avoid some cataclysmic event (since without the Weave, raw magic would flare up in a gigantic burst, killing everything, per "Magic of Faerun"). Before proceeding with this process, Mystra set up a lot of contingencies, because she had foreseen that hard times were coming for her and her allies, so she put up a lot of plans to save allied deities, etc... However, in the middle of this, Cyric came and apparently killed her. While the contingencies already put in place held up, this event was the last strain, and the cataclysm happened. However, Mystra didn't die; she was severly weakened and forced to hide. Likewise, the Weave wasn't destroyed, but it survived in strands (and some of the deities that Mystra protected were hidden in these strands--Ed told us about like Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, but I guess they were not the only ones). At some point, Mystra was restored thanks to various events, and she and the chosen proceeded to complete the restore the Weave, completing what she had started 1 century before.

The fun part is this explanation only came out in a 5e transition novel.



I had forgotten this one. Thanks for reminding me. Just a thing: most of this plot was revealed in Elminster Enraged, a 4e novel.

quote:
Originally posted by Grumpy Hamatula

If I recall correctly, there was also some sort of resonance of the Tearfall (-31k DR) and the First Sundering (-17.6k DR) with the Second Sundering. Would this perhaps have had some effect that might have amplified the effect of the death/presumed death of Mystra?



Perhaps? Though the Sunderings are mostly related among themselves, according to that talk at GenCon 2012 that I mentioned before.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3141 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2020 :  17:57:29  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X


I had forgotten this one. Thanks for reminding me. Just a thing: most of this plot was revealed in Elminster Enraged, a 4e novel.




True, but it was a tail-end 4e novel, and given what it brought (Mystra's return, and the beginning of the restoration of the Weave) I count it as a 5e transition novel.

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Edited by - Irennan on 11 Feb 2020 17:58:49
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St3v3nMC198666
Acolyte

USA
7 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2020 :  23:27:10  Show Profile Send St3v3nMC198666 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
BOO!

quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

We saw the death of Mystra during the Time of Troubles, and Mystryl before her likewise died, but neither event caused anything near the Spellplague's destruction. In canon, is there a reason why?




Well, Mystra fore-saw the atrocity & cast her grand-illusion. Cyric...took it in whole-heartedly. Helm too for that matter....mean-while, Waukeen!

< ( _ + * = _ + * ) >
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St3v3nMC198666
Acolyte

USA
7 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2020 :  23:31:05  Show Profile Send St3v3nMC198666 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
BOO!

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Time of Troubles was still comparably destructive across Toril. It just didn't span the cosmos or drag Abeir into the mess.

Possibly because Mystra had already invested "shards" of her divinity into living vessels - one of singular potency being the woman Midnight who became the new Mystra.

Possibly because Ao directly imposed himself on the crisis. He was fundamentally concerned with "restoring balance" to the Realms (and evidently had to submit status reports to his overgodly peers or overgodly boss) so he may have mitigated or contained damage to the Realms.

Mystra actually supplanted Mystril when Karsus invoked Netheril's Fall, (momentarily) inravelled the Weave, and fundamentally changed the nature (rules) of magic forever.

But I don't think any official canon explanation has ever been offered. The Spellplague was a calamity on every world (especially those worlds with stores selling D&D-branded merchandise) while the other Mystra interregna were essentially confined to the Realms and adjacent settings.



Well as in any time or space imbalanced nature's cycle (galactic fusion..) will eventually restore peace if beings do not. The Gods, Goddesses & Deity 'present' are actually fraudulent hence the violence at all. Official canon is reserved for events typically in their exaction not necessarily their lore per event.

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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3935 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2020 :  00:35:02  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Heh?

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
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keftiu
Learned Scribe

143 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2020 :  01:08:09  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Heh?



I think it’s a bot; their posts are all very machine learning-y. Do we have a report button?

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3935 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2020 :  01:11:15  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No report button that I know of other than a PM to Wooly with a link to the thread.

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
32857 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2020 :  02:25:32  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The posts are odd, but I need more than just odd, before I act.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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TheIriaeban
Learned Scribe

USA
137 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2020 :  04:02:58  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
He turned me into a newt! Well, I got better...

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
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Grumpy Hamatula
Seeker

22 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2020 :  12:54:40  Show Profile Send Grumpy Hamatula a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The text in question might be machine-generated, I agree. It also seems to have some hallmarks of machine translation and/or second-language writing...but it feels a good bit more like it's been algorithm-generated.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8542 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2020 :  22:28:42  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

He turned me into a newt! Well, I got better...



You too!

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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cpthero2
Senior Scribe

USA
759 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2020 :  00:09:33  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe TheIriaeban,

I think it could have been the Demon Lord of the Marketing Department (the 668th layer of the Abyss), who decided that to cause as much strife and rage as possible, they would concoct a plan of such absurdity that no one would believe it. It would be such a massive lie, that many people would debate for years trying to make sense of the non-sensical. Not even Jubilex in his constant state of flux could handle the chaos, and he exploded.

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

We saw the death of Mystra during the Time of Troubles, and Mystryl before her likewise died, but neither event caused anything near the Spellplague's destruction. In canon, is there a reason why?



This is one of the reasons I've long had an issue with the whole Spellplague idea.

I seem to recall something saying that Abeir just happened to be in phase with Toril when Mystra was murdered -- whatever the smurf that's supposed to mean. And it was because of this highly improbable plot convenience that everything went kablooie -- except, of course, the stuff that was protected by plot armor and thus didn't go kablooie.

So while some areas of high magic usage blew up, other areas with high magic use were somehow unaffected. We've got Schrodinger's Magical Jumping Nuke going off in Halruaa, outer planes that had nothing to do with magic getting rearranged, all sorts of nonsense -- just because this convergence just happened to happen at the exact same instant as an event that had happened multiple times before without anywhere near the illogical chaos. We also had minor details like the sea level dropping a specified amount, but somehow dropping further where it would be cooler, all without affecting the coastline at all or weather patterns or anything.

This is another of those things that fails the Madcoil Test for me: a series of wildly improbable things happened because of a wildly improbable coincidence.



I would guess that is where the Church of the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen got it's start. Because a Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen is actually more logical than the Spellplague.


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
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