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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Jan 2020 : 07:55:00
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It occurred to me that Realmspace might be considered a no fly zone or be quarantined due to the inordinate number of magical/godly calamities.
Thoughts from others about why Spelljammers might avoid Realmspace?
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2020 : 08:24:09
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I mean, do they?
Dungeon of the Mad Mage has a Spelljammer dock in orbit featured, and that came out like... a year ago? |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2020 : 09:08:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Well if its 4e or 5e I can understand why even spelljammers choose to stay away. There is nothing of interest in those versions.
Doesn't cost anything to just scroll past if you've got nothing to add. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2020 : 11:17:04
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Well if its 4e or 5e I can understand why even spelljammers choose to stay away. There is nothing of interest in those versions.
Doesn't cost anything to just scroll past if you've got nothing to add.
I agree. It gets tiresome seeing such comments made so frequently. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2020 : 11:19:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
It occurred to me that Realmspace might be considered a no fly zone or be quarantined due to the inordinate number of magical/godly calamities.
Thoughts from others about why Spelljammers might avoid Realmspace?
I don't know that there's enough communication between different spheres to spread the word on something like that.
You could say, though, that a side-effect of the Spellplague somehow affected how spelljamming works, and that a lot of inbound spelljammers have turned around and left because of it. |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2020 : 20:23:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
There was spelljamming travel going on in the 4e era thanks to its inclusion in a certain series of novels.
For my Realmspace update project, I've written that there was an initial period following the Spellplague during which spelljamming vessels ceased to function, and that spelljamming devices had to be reworked to function in the collapsed Weave environment.
The Weave is only a medium through which magic is channeled and shaped. Raw magic flows throughout Realmspace with or without the Weave.
I haven't read any of the Spelljamming stuff but if the magic was disrupted, wouldn't they die? Do the ships have a technological means of providing life support? |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2020 : 21:45:42
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Yeah, I also remember an spelljammer mentioned in one novel. And the spelljammers also had rules for use in 4e, in Manual of the Planes. In 4e the spelljammers not only can traverse the outer space, they also can move between planes.
If anything, it seems the spelljamming technology actually improved in the post-Spellplague years. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2020 : 22:01:39
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I actually pray a little that SJ will get a full campaign update but Im losing hope.
With that being said, I think saying the sphere was closed like Athas is known to be from the Spellplague to the Sunderimg would solve a lot of problems. It could explain away why there was so little discussion in recent editions (maybe the ships moved to the planes for a bit?) and it could also explain why the technology hasnt become so much more prevalent in the past century. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2020 : 02:29:02
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
There was spelljamming travel going on in the 4e era thanks to its inclusion in a certain series of novels.
For my Realmspace update project, I've written that there was an initial period following the Spellplague during which spelljamming vessels ceased to function, and that spelljamming devices had to be reworked to function in the collapsed Weave environment.
The Weave is only a medium through which magic is channeled and shaped. Raw magic flows throughout Realmspace with or without the Weave.
I haven't read any of the Spelljamming stuff but if the magic was disrupted, wouldn't they die? Do the ships have a technological means of providing life support?
No. Arcane space, as they called it, was not liked real-world space. Pretty much everything in Spelljammer had its own gravity, and that gravity would hold a bubble of air around the object/creature. A lot of spelljamming vessels were either former sailing ships or were very clearly developed from them.
I think that was part of why the Spelljammer setting never caught on like it could have: people just couldn't accept that things were different in fantasy, so they got hung up over the idea of people strolling around unprotected on the outside of a wooden ship while magic propelled it between the planets. "Hey, this setting with giant fire-breathing flying reptiles and people creating lightning bolts by wiggling their fingers isn't realistic, because it doesn't include explosive decompression!" |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2020 : 02:55:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
I actually pray a little that SJ will get a full campaign update but Im losing hope.
I'd love to see some real details on the Second Unhuman War, and how things have gone since then...
I'd love to see Spelljammer get a full-on relaunch... But I don't expect it to happen. I don't think the setting can get a large enough audience -- it didn't really get a big enough audience to last long, the first time around.
Also, they'd have to address some issues that got blithely overlooked the first time around... How can so much of a world be terra incognita when anyone can hop a ship and be there in a matter of hours? Why is it that none of the folks that dropped in from space stopped at these other places and spread word of them?
And most importantly -- you'd have to address the impact of spelljamming on war and trade.
In the crystal sphere I made up for myself, there was a world that was mostly islands and small continents, and a lot of water. A wizard-merchant, trying to use magic to make one of his ships go faster, accidentally invented something pretty much the same as a spelljamming helm -- he wanted propulsion, and didn't think about flying, but then discovered he could make his ship fly.
Realizing the potential of this, he first used this to get a dramatic advantage on his mercantile rivals, then took it to his nation's ruler, explaining the potential military advantages. With their nation being the only one able to airlift troops or conduct aerial assaults, they pretty quickly took over the continent, and eventually, the entire planet. Two things kept them from going further: no interest in seeing if there was anyone else to conquer, and the fact that their spelljamming tech wasn't quite true spelljamming: they couldn't move ships at interplanetary speeds. (I once did the math: traveling at tactical speeds, with I believe a team of 10th level wizards, it would still take like a month to get to the moon)
I was in high school when Spelljammer came out -- and even then, the fact that they ignored such things *really* bugged me.
Keep in mind as I say all this that Spelljammer was my first love of D&D settings, and I still really, really like it -- I even got my username from there! But as much as I love Spelljammer, I'll still acknowledge that it had its flaws. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 01 Feb 2020 02:59:37 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2020 : 03:23:10
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Who could enforce such a quarantine in-universe?
An "inaccessible" or "forbidden" sphere would likely just attract more spelljamming traffic than it keeps away. Spelljammers tend to not be meek and compliant (unless held at gunpoint), they tend to underdtand that risks are just part of costs and costs are worth it when profit promises to be high enough. They'd find a way into Realmspace, they'd enjoy any edge in trade or piracy they could get, they'd enjoy (and profit from) it even more by slipping and smuggling contraband past some sort of police blockade. |
[/Ayrik] |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2020 : 03:53:00
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| I would expect that spelljammers would have cooked up something like lighthouses what warn of space maelstroms or rocks or whatever hazard to navigation was found. If one of the magical calamities caused something that looked like the warning signal from one of these "lighthouses" and it was at the entrance to Realmspace, no spelljammer would willingly go near it. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2020 : 05:20:15
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
I would expect that spelljammers would have cooked up something like lighthouses what warn of space maelstroms or rocks or whatever hazard to navigation was found. If one of the magical calamities caused something that looked like the warning signal from one of these "lighthouses" and it was at the entrance to Realmspace, no spelljammer would willingly go near it.
The problem is that there's not just one entrance... And even the naturally-existing portals aren't the only way in. You'd have to have millions of these warning systems, if not more, to cover the entire sphere. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2020 : 06:12:13
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I'm still convinced a quarantine wouldn't be plausible - nor that it could ever be effective.
Spelljammers are savvy to things like teleports, worldwalking, portals, planar travel, divination magics, and contacting "divine" entities. These things aren't readily available to all, and they aren't strictly part of a spelljammer's lifestyle or spelljamming ship's complement. But they are still accessible enough to many, and they would quickly reveal how the "quarantine" conditions on a major port (all of Realmspace) could be bypassed or mitigated.
If I had to offer an explanation for lack of Spelljammer in 4E and beyond then I'd say the so-called Spellplague (or the 100+ years timejump) caused the Realmspace sphere to somehow disconnect from the other major spheres of the Triad. The same thing has apparently happened before (ages ago) with Athas - original homeworld of the Kreen races. Crystal spheres in the Flow are like bubbles floating in a river, always in motion relative to each other, sometimes they cluster together and sometimes they drift apart. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2020 : 10:04:02
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Out of curiosity, what 4e novel HAD spelljamming and does it validate OR invalidate that spelljamming was functioning in realmspace between the spellplague and the second sundering?
We've seen the concept that the realmspace crystal sphere became closed. We know that during "the wailing years" magic no longer worked on Toril, but we don't know that to be universally true on the Abeir side (as in their particular type of magic that was common to their sphere). We know that the two worlds somehow share the same sun, but the world of Toril and the world of Abeir are "out of phase". Also, we know that a portion of Abeir's "steelsky" transferred to Toril for a short time. What if the "steelsky" is somehow linked to an odd variation of a crystal sphere that surrounds Abeir, and it exists only as far as the planet's atmosphere BUT also allows the sun from an exterior crystal sphere to shine through to it. In essence, what if Abeir is something akin to a crystal sphere within a crystal sphere... or the birthing of a new crystal sphere.... born FROM Realmspace. Maybe its shell was "different" because it was still being "formed" like a child in the uterus. So, possibly when the spellplague happened, it was because the two spheres had finally come to some form of conjunction, and the second sundering was Abeir actually being "ejected" as its own crystal sphere newly born with a new sun. Maybe a crystal sphere with just a single planet and a sun, and possibly its interaction with the realmsian sphere transferred some of the arcane glyphs from Toril's shell into it. In fact, maybe part of it was the whole creation of a mini-sun over Elturel that somehow mirrored into Abeir to create a sun in their crystal sphere.
From an outsider's perspective, they may fly up to Toril's crystal sphere now and see something like a smaller crystal sphere attached to it, like its "budding"... and from an outsider's perspective this might be extremely interesting. Abeir in this instance might be attracting a lot of interest (but their shell may still be impermeable or something). As a result, there might be an influx of spelljammers interested in Toril. Personally, that could be an interesting way to change some of the other worlds in realmspace, by having immigrants coming in and setting up fledgling colonies on worlds that are little populated and terraforming worlds that are primarily water to have land masses via magic.
For that matter, we MIGHT find that Abeir sucked over some planets from realmspace. I'd hate to actually give up Anadia, Coliar, and Karpri because I like those, but it could be worked. Perhaps the "new sun" is something like a comet that finally ran into the sun and caught flame/developed a link to the elemental plane of fire. Either way, the new sun might be in a different spot (which possibly only came into play with the second sundering), for instance if say Karpri went over, then Toril and Karpri may have a fledgling sun between them and their orbits are changed during the second sundering. My point here mainly being that we know very little about Abeir other than what we know from prior to the spellplague. We have a few insights from the tiefling novels, but even those may be skewed because some areas of the world may act different than others (like how Rashemen's land is somehow different, and how Kara-Tur was linked to the Spirit Realms instead of the Astral... and same might be true of Anchorome).
On a sidebar of THAT note, I'm very much of a liking that the "newly returned" lands of the Shaar have a strong link to the Spirit World. In fact the entire world of Toril may have areas where "primal magic" and "divine magic" are at war on a level misunderstood by Faerunians. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 01 Feb 2020 10:23:31 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2020 : 15:37:56
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I don't remember exactly in which one, but I guess it was one of the Wilds series. Anyways, I guess that this means spelljammers were still usable in those days, and that, if they saw little use in those days, it was because others reasons unrelated to the nature of magic.
Also, aren't the halruaan ships a kind of spelljammers? (Or spelljamming derived technology). Because, the halruaan survivors of Yaulazna employed their flying ships in the post-Spellplague years without any problems, as well (see the FRCG).
As for your theory of Abeir being its own sphere... maybe? Though, they destroyed your theory of the mini-sun in Descent into Avernus. The mini-sun was a deva trapped by Zariel and used for her evil purposes. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2020 : 17:02:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Also, aren't the halruaan ships a kind of spelljammers? (Or spelljamming derived technology). Because, the halruaan survivors of Yaulazna employed their flying ships in the post-Spellplague years without any problems, as well (see the FRCG).
Aside from being ships that are not limited to travel in 2 dimensions, Halruaan skyships have absolutely nothing in common with spelljammers.
Spelljamming vessels: any vessel that has a spelljamming helm, which converts magical energies into thrust sufficient of lifting the vessel into the air and moving it between planets at a very fast speed. Spelljamming helms are usually chairs of some sort, and require a spellcaster to be in the chair to operate them. The spellcaster gets an awareness of the entire ship, and controls its speed and direction.
Halruaan skyships: These are purpose-built ships that have magical plates stuck onto the hull. These plates have levitation magics cast on them, and are controlled by means of a special rod. Since it is levitation-based, they can go up or down -- and movement in any other direction requires some other motive source, usually the same wind power that traditional sea-faring ships use.
Now, a Halruaan skyship can have a spelljamming helm mounted on it, which makes it a spelljammer... And while a few skyships are spelljammers, this is an after-market thing, so to speak. Most skyships do not have spelljamming helms, and thus they are much slower and generally less maneuverable than a spelljammer. A skyship can likely outlift most spelljammers, but that's their only real advantage. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2020 : 17:12:10
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| Didn't the second Blade of the Moonsea novel (the names were stupid of those novels, sorry can't remember) have a Spelljamming ship that travelled to the moon and back? Not sure any skyship could leave atmosphere so to me that makes it more of a Spelljamming vessel, but they also were loose with the canon back then. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2020 : 17:52:06
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| Oh yeah, it was that one! The protagonist is a guy named Geran, right? |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2020 : 17:54:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Aside from being ships that are not limited to travel in 2 dimensions, Halruaan skyships have absolutely nothing in common with spelljammers.
Spelljamming vessels: any vessel that has a spelljamming helm, which converts magical energies into thrust sufficient of lifting the vessel into the air and moving it between planets at a very fast speed. Spelljamming helms are usually chairs of some sort, and require a spellcaster to be in the chair to operate them. The spellcaster gets an awareness of the entire ship, and controls its speed and direction.
Halruaan skyships: These are purpose-built ships that have magical plates stuck onto the hull. These plates have levitation magics cast on them, and are controlled by means of a special rod. Since it is levitation-based, they can go up or down -- and movement in any other direction requires some other motive source, usually the same wind power that traditional sea-faring ships use.
Now, a Halruaan skyship can have a spelljamming helm mounted on it, which makes it a spelljammer... And while a few skyships are spelljammers, this is an after-market thing, so to speak. Most skyships do not have spelljamming helms, and thus they are much slower and generally less maneuverable than a spelljammer. A skyship can likely outlift most spelljammers, but that's their only real advantage.
Thanks for the clarification, Wooly. I always thought the skyships were related to spelljammers, but it seems they are built based on different "magitech". |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 01 Feb 2020 17:54:44 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2020 : 18:33:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
Didn't the second Blade of the Moonsea novel (the names were stupid of those novels, sorry can't remember) have a Spelljamming ship that travelled to the moon and back? Not sure any skyship could leave atmosphere so to me that makes it more of a Spelljamming vessel, but they also were loose with the canon back then.
Given the way gravity works in arcane space, I don't see any reason why a Halruaan skyship couldn't make it to Selūne and back... Though that journey might take longer than they'd have air for, and they'd need some method of propulsion aside from just the lift provided by the plates on the ship. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2020 : 18:47:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Given the way gravity works in arcane space, I don't see any reason why a Halruaan skyship couldn't make it to Selūne and back... Though that journey might take longer than they'd have air for, and they'd need some method of propulsion aside from just the lift provided by the plates on the ship.
Would not a Halruaan skyship get caught between the two where gravity pull of both are equal? There would not be an up or down to push against.
As for air there should be spells that could be modified to provide air. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2020 : 20:16:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Given the way gravity works in arcane space, I don't see any reason why a Halruaan skyship couldn't make it to Selūne and back... Though that journey might take longer than they'd have air for, and they'd need some method of propulsion aside from just the lift provided by the plates on the ship.
Would not a Halruaan skyship get caught between the two where gravity pull of both are equal? There would not be an up or down to push against.
I would say that would depend on how levitation magics work -- is the magic countering a specific amount of gravity, or is it simply pushing up? |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2020 : 21:19:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Given the way gravity works in arcane space, I don't see any reason why a Halruaan skyship couldn't make it to Selūne and back... Though that journey might take longer than they'd have air for, and they'd need some method of propulsion aside from just the lift provided by the plates on the ship.
Would not a Halruaan skyship get caught between the two where gravity pull of both are equal? There would not be an up or down to push against.
I would say that would depend on how levitation magics work -- is the magic countering a specific amount of gravity, or is it simply pushing up?
Do skyships "bob" as they move (or cause sea sickness)? If they are solidly at a specific altitude then levitation just pushes up. If they bob as they move, they counter a specific amount of gravity and they bob because they are encountering slight gravitational variances as they move along the surface of the planet.
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"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2020 : 23:21:08
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I imagine skyships move much like hot-air balloons. They use sails to catch wind for movement across the skies. They use levitation magics to vertically ascend/descend. They are ultimately at the mercy of the winds but they can usually make use of different wind directions on different air layers. They might even get caught in dead calms, though it seems like they could always descend to touch surface on (almost) any land or water.
I suppose they can ride, keel, tack, and run with winds like any other sailcraft. Clouds would be like swells, tornadoes would be like whirlpools. So a skyship might lean heavy while wind or gravity fills its sails, it might be a smooth and steady ride or it might "chop" through air wavelets, it might be able to coadt above fierce stormclouds, it might get caught ditectly inside of them. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2020 : 02:32:01
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| I think the only description we've gotten, regarding the ride on a skyship, was in one of Elaine's Counselors & Kings books. Every other description of them has been either how they work or who has them. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2020 : 03:38:17
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| Dwalimer Omen had a skyship in the comics |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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AJA
Senior Scribe
USA
747 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2020 : 03:40:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Also, they'd have to address some issues that got blithely overlooked the first time around... How can so much of a world be terra incognita when anyone can hop a ship and be there in a matter of hours? Why is it that none of the folks that dropped in from space stopped at these other places and spread word of them?
And most importantly -- you'd have to address the impact of spelljamming on war and trade.
Caught between the starry scylla and the space charybdis: do you cater to some SJ fans who want full integration or do you appease a whole lot more FR/GH/DL/etc. fans who don't want full on re-imagings and re-writings of their worlds?
I've always loved Spelljammer as well, even (especially) the gonzo stuff, but I feel the way TSR/Wizards went about managing it (drop hints and references in the various campaign world products / put out "-space" sourcebooks for those who want it, but leave it vague and un-official enough for each individual table to decide just how much they want to adopt) worked best in the long term.
Of course, Planescape suffered from a similar dilemma and fared better by all accounts, so maybe you're right in that level of "people just couldn't accept that things were different."
Or maybe they should've just given the British space hippos cockney accents instead, 'ey wot, guv? 
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AJA
YAFRP
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Why no more Spelljammer for Forgotten Realms
