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Dalor Darden
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Posted - 31 Jan 2020 :  07:55:00  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
It occurred to me that Realmspace might be considered a “no fly zone” or be quarantined due to the inordinate number of magical/godly calamities.

Thoughts from others about why Spelljammers might avoid Realmspace?

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keftiu
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Posted - 31 Jan 2020 :  08:24:09  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I mean, do they?

Dungeon of the Mad Mage has a Spelljammer dock in orbit featured, and that came out like... a year ago?

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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 31 Jan 2020 :  08:27:40  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well if its 4e or 5e I can understand why even spelljammers choose to stay away. There is nothing of interest in those versions.

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keftiu
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Posted - 31 Jan 2020 :  09:08:28  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Well if its 4e or 5e I can understand why even spelljammers choose to stay away. There is nothing of interest in those versions.



Doesn't cost anything to just scroll past if you've got nothing to add.

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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 31 Jan 2020 :  10:12:41  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just a little in game joke at the expense of certain editions.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 31 Jan 2020 :  11:17:04  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Well if its 4e or 5e I can understand why even spelljammers choose to stay away. There is nothing of interest in those versions.



Doesn't cost anything to just scroll past if you've got nothing to add.



I agree. It gets tiresome seeing such comments made so frequently.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 31 Jan 2020 :  11:19:43  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

It occurred to me that Realmspace might be considered a “no fly zone” or be quarantined due to the inordinate number of magical/godly calamities.

Thoughts from others about why Spelljammers might avoid Realmspace?



I don't know that there's enough communication between different spheres to spread the word on something like that.

You could say, though, that a side-effect of the Spellplague somehow affected how spelljamming works, and that a lot of inbound spelljammers have turned around and left because of it.

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Storyteller Hero
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Posted - 31 Jan 2020 :  12:40:05  Show Profile  Visit Storyteller Hero's Homepage Send Storyteller Hero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There was spelljamming travel going on in the 4e era thanks to its inclusion in a certain series of novels.

For my Realmspace update project, I've written that there was an initial period following the Spellplague during which spelljamming vessels ceased to function, and that spelljamming devices had to be reworked to function in the collapsed Weave environment.

The Weave is only a medium through which magic is channeled and shaped. Raw magic flows throughout Realmspace with or without the Weave.







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TheIriaeban
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Posted - 31 Jan 2020 :  20:23:36  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero

There was spelljamming travel going on in the 4e era thanks to its inclusion in a certain series of novels.

For my Realmspace update project, I've written that there was an initial period following the Spellplague during which spelljamming vessels ceased to function, and that spelljamming devices had to be reworked to function in the collapsed Weave environment.

The Weave is only a medium through which magic is channeled and shaped. Raw magic flows throughout Realmspace with or without the Weave.



I haven't read any of the Spelljamming stuff but if the magic was disrupted, wouldn't they die? Do the ships have a technological means of providing life support?

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Zeromaru X
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Posted - 31 Jan 2020 :  21:45:42  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I also remember an spelljammer mentioned in one novel. And the spelljammers also had rules for use in 4e, in Manual of the Planes. In 4e the spelljammers not only can traverse the outer space, they also can move between planes.

If anything, it seems the spelljamming technology actually improved in the post-Spellplague years.

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Seethyr
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Posted - 31 Jan 2020 :  22:01:39  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I actually pray a little that SJ will get a full campaign update but I’m losing hope.

With that being said, I think saying the sphere was “closed” like Athas is known to be from the Spellplague to the Sunderimg would solve a lot of problems. It could explain away why there was so little discussion in recent editions (maybe the ships moved to the planes for a bit?) and it could also explain why the technology hasn’t become so much more prevalent in the past century.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 01 Feb 2020 :  02:29:02  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero

There was spelljamming travel going on in the 4e era thanks to its inclusion in a certain series of novels.

For my Realmspace update project, I've written that there was an initial period following the Spellplague during which spelljamming vessels ceased to function, and that spelljamming devices had to be reworked to function in the collapsed Weave environment.

The Weave is only a medium through which magic is channeled and shaped. Raw magic flows throughout Realmspace with or without the Weave.



I haven't read any of the Spelljamming stuff but if the magic was disrupted, wouldn't they die? Do the ships have a technological means of providing life support?



No. Arcane space, as they called it, was not liked real-world space. Pretty much everything in Spelljammer had its own gravity, and that gravity would hold a bubble of air around the object/creature. A lot of spelljamming vessels were either former sailing ships or were very clearly developed from them.

I think that was part of why the Spelljammer setting never caught on like it could have: people just couldn't accept that things were different in fantasy, so they got hung up over the idea of people strolling around unprotected on the outside of a wooden ship while magic propelled it between the planets. "Hey, this setting with giant fire-breathing flying reptiles and people creating lightning bolts by wiggling their fingers isn't realistic, because it doesn't include explosive decompression!"

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 01 Feb 2020 :  02:55:49  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

I actually pray a little that SJ will get a full campaign update but I’m losing hope.




I'd love to see some real details on the Second Unhuman War, and how things have gone since then...

I'd love to see Spelljammer get a full-on relaunch... But I don't expect it to happen. I don't think the setting can get a large enough audience -- it didn't really get a big enough audience to last long, the first time around.

Also, they'd have to address some issues that got blithely overlooked the first time around... How can so much of a world be terra incognita when anyone can hop a ship and be there in a matter of hours? Why is it that none of the folks that dropped in from space stopped at these other places and spread word of them?

And most importantly -- you'd have to address the impact of spelljamming on war and trade.

In the crystal sphere I made up for myself, there was a world that was mostly islands and small continents, and a lot of water. A wizard-merchant, trying to use magic to make one of his ships go faster, accidentally invented something pretty much the same as a spelljamming helm -- he wanted propulsion, and didn't think about flying, but then discovered he could make his ship fly.

Realizing the potential of this, he first used this to get a dramatic advantage on his mercantile rivals, then took it to his nation's ruler, explaining the potential military advantages. With their nation being the only one able to airlift troops or conduct aerial assaults, they pretty quickly took over the continent, and eventually, the entire planet. Two things kept them from going further: no interest in seeing if there was anyone else to conquer, and the fact that their spelljamming tech wasn't quite true spelljamming: they couldn't move ships at interplanetary speeds. (I once did the math: traveling at tactical speeds, with I believe a team of 10th level wizards, it would still take like a month to get to the moon)

I was in high school when Spelljammer came out -- and even then, the fact that they ignored such things *really* bugged me.

Keep in mind as I say all this that Spelljammer was my first love of D&D settings, and I still really, really like it -- I even got my username from there! But as much as I love Spelljammer, I'll still acknowledge that it had its flaws.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 01 Feb 2020 02:59:37
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Ayrik
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Posted - 01 Feb 2020 :  03:23:10  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Who could enforce such a quarantine in-universe?

An "inaccessible" or "forbidden" sphere would likely just attract more spelljamming traffic than it keeps away. Spelljammers tend to not be meek and compliant (unless held at gunpoint), they tend to underdtand that risks are just part of costs and costs are worth it when profit promises to be high enough. They'd find a way into Realmspace, they'd enjoy any edge in trade or piracy they could get, they'd enjoy (and profit from) it even more by slipping and smuggling contraband past some sort of police blockade.

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TheIriaeban
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Posted - 01 Feb 2020 :  03:53:00  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would expect that spelljammers would have cooked up something like lighthouses what warn of space maelstroms or rocks or whatever hazard to navigation was found. If one of the magical calamities caused something that looked like the warning signal from one of these "lighthouses" and it was at the entrance to Realmspace, no spelljammer would willingly go near it.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 01 Feb 2020 :  05:20:15  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

I would expect that spelljammers would have cooked up something like lighthouses what warn of space maelstroms or rocks or whatever hazard to navigation was found. If one of the magical calamities caused something that looked like the warning signal from one of these "lighthouses" and it was at the entrance to Realmspace, no spelljammer would willingly go near it.



The problem is that there's not just one entrance... And even the naturally-existing portals aren't the only way in. You'd have to have millions of these warning systems, if not more, to cover the entire sphere.

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Ayrik
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Posted - 01 Feb 2020 :  06:12:13  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm still convinced a quarantine wouldn't be plausible - nor that it could ever be effective.

Spelljammers are savvy to things like teleports, worldwalking, portals, planar travel, divination magics, and contacting "divine" entities. These things aren't readily available to all, and they aren't strictly part of a spelljammer's lifestyle or spelljamming ship's complement. But they are still accessible enough to many, and they would quickly reveal how the "quarantine" conditions on a major port (all of Realmspace) could be bypassed or mitigated.

If I had to offer an explanation for lack of Spelljammer in 4E and beyond then I'd say the so-called Spellplague (or the 100+ years timejump) caused the Realmspace sphere to somehow disconnect from the other major spheres of the Triad. The same thing has apparently happened before (ages ago) with Athas - original homeworld of the Kreen races. Crystal spheres in the Flow are like bubbles floating in a river, always in motion relative to each other, sometimes they cluster together and sometimes they drift apart.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 01 Feb 2020 :  10:04:02  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Out of curiosity, what 4e novel HAD spelljamming and does it validate OR invalidate that spelljamming was functioning in realmspace between the spellplague and the second sundering?

We've seen the concept that the realmspace crystal sphere became closed. We know that during "the wailing years" magic no longer worked on Toril, but we don't know that to be universally true on the Abeir side (as in their particular type of magic that was common to their sphere). We know that the two worlds somehow share the same sun, but the world of Toril and the world of Abeir are "out of phase". Also, we know that a portion of Abeir's "steelsky" transferred to Toril for a short time. What if the "steelsky" is somehow linked to an odd variation of a crystal sphere that surrounds Abeir, and it exists only as far as the planet's atmosphere BUT also allows the sun from an exterior crystal sphere to shine through to it. In essence, what if Abeir is something akin to a crystal sphere within a crystal sphere... or the birthing of a new crystal sphere.... born FROM Realmspace. Maybe its shell was "different" because it was still being "formed" like a child in the uterus. So, possibly when the spellplague happened, it was because the two spheres had finally come to some form of conjunction, and the second sundering was Abeir actually being "ejected" as its own crystal sphere newly born with a new sun. Maybe a crystal sphere with just a single planet and a sun, and possibly its interaction with the realmsian sphere transferred some of the arcane glyphs from Toril's shell into it. In fact, maybe part of it was the whole creation of a mini-sun over Elturel that somehow mirrored into Abeir to create a sun in their crystal sphere.

From an outsider's perspective, they may fly up to Toril's crystal sphere now and see something like a smaller crystal sphere attached to it, like its "budding"... and from an outsider's perspective this might be extremely interesting. Abeir in this instance might be attracting a lot of interest (but their shell may still be impermeable or something). As a result, there might be an influx of spelljammers interested in Toril. Personally, that could be an interesting way to change some of the other worlds in realmspace, by having immigrants coming in and setting up fledgling colonies on worlds that are little populated and terraforming worlds that are primarily water to have land masses via magic.

For that matter, we MIGHT find that Abeir sucked over some planets from realmspace. I'd hate to actually give up Anadia, Coliar, and Karpri because I like those, but it could be worked. Perhaps the "new sun" is something like a comet that finally ran into the sun and caught flame/developed a link to the elemental plane of fire. Either way, the new sun might be in a different spot (which possibly only came into play with the second sundering), for instance if say Karpri went over, then Toril and Karpri may have a fledgling sun between them and their orbits are changed during the second sundering. My point here mainly being that we know very little about Abeir other than what we know from prior to the spellplague. We have a few insights from the tiefling novels, but even those may be skewed because some areas of the world may act different than others (like how Rashemen's land is somehow different, and how Kara-Tur was linked to the Spirit Realms instead of the Astral... and same might be true of Anchorome).

On a sidebar of THAT note, I'm very much of a liking that the "newly returned" lands of the Shaar have a strong link to the Spirit World. In fact the entire world of Toril may have areas where "primal magic" and "divine magic" are at war on a level misunderstood by Faerunians.

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Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 01 Feb 2020 10:23:31
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Zeromaru X
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Posted - 01 Feb 2020 :  15:37:56  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't remember exactly in which one, but I guess it was one of the Wilds series. Anyways, I guess that this means spelljammers were still usable in those days, and that, if they saw little use in those days, it was because others reasons unrelated to the nature of magic.

Also, aren't the halruaan ships a kind of spelljammers? (Or spelljamming derived technology). Because, the halruaan survivors of Yaulazna employed their flying ships in the post-Spellplague years without any problems, as well (see the FRCG).

As for your theory of Abeir being its own sphere... maybe? Though, they destroyed your theory of the mini-sun in Descent into Avernus. The mini-sun was a deva trapped by Zariel and used for her evil purposes.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 01 Feb 2020 :  17:02:41  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Also, aren't the halruaan ships a kind of spelljammers? (Or spelljamming derived technology). Because, the halruaan survivors of Yaulazna employed their flying ships in the post-Spellplague years without any problems, as well (see the FRCG).



Aside from being ships that are not limited to travel in 2 dimensions, Halruaan skyships have absolutely nothing in common with spelljammers.

Spelljamming vessels: any vessel that has a spelljamming helm, which converts magical energies into thrust sufficient of lifting the vessel into the air and moving it between planets at a very fast speed. Spelljamming helms are usually chairs of some sort, and require a spellcaster to be in the chair to operate them. The spellcaster gets an awareness of the entire ship, and controls its speed and direction.

Halruaan skyships: These are purpose-built ships that have magical plates stuck onto the hull. These plates have levitation magics cast on them, and are controlled by means of a special rod. Since it is levitation-based, they can go up or down -- and movement in any other direction requires some other motive source, usually the same wind power that traditional sea-faring ships use.

Now, a Halruaan skyship can have a spelljamming helm mounted on it, which makes it a spelljammer... And while a few skyships are spelljammers, this is an after-market thing, so to speak. Most skyships do not have spelljamming helms, and thus they are much slower and generally less maneuverable than a spelljammer. A skyship can likely outlift most spelljammers, but that's their only real advantage.

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Seravin
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Posted - 01 Feb 2020 :  17:12:10  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Didn't the second Blade of the Moonsea novel (the names were stupid of those novels, sorry can't remember) have a Spelljamming ship that travelled to the moon and back? Not sure any skyship could leave atmosphere so to me that makes it more of a Spelljamming vessel, but they also were loose with the canon back then.
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Zeromaru X
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Posted - 01 Feb 2020 :  17:52:06  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh yeah, it was that one! The protagonist is a guy named Geran, right?

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Zeromaru X
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Posted - 01 Feb 2020 :  17:54:22  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Aside from being ships that are not limited to travel in 2 dimensions, Halruaan skyships have absolutely nothing in common with spelljammers.

Spelljamming vessels: any vessel that has a spelljamming helm, which converts magical energies into thrust sufficient of lifting the vessel into the air and moving it between planets at a very fast speed. Spelljamming helms are usually chairs of some sort, and require a spellcaster to be in the chair to operate them. The spellcaster gets an awareness of the entire ship, and controls its speed and direction.

Halruaan skyships: These are purpose-built ships that have magical plates stuck onto the hull. These plates have levitation magics cast on them, and are controlled by means of a special rod. Since it is levitation-based, they can go up or down -- and movement in any other direction requires some other motive source, usually the same wind power that traditional sea-faring ships use.

Now, a Halruaan skyship can have a spelljamming helm mounted on it, which makes it a spelljammer... And while a few skyships are spelljammers, this is an after-market thing, so to speak. Most skyships do not have spelljamming helms, and thus they are much slower and generally less maneuverable than a spelljammer. A skyship can likely outlift most spelljammers, but that's their only real advantage.



Thanks for the clarification, Wooly. I always thought the skyships were related to spelljammers, but it seems they are built based on different "magitech".

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 01 Feb 2020 17:54:44
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 01 Feb 2020 :  18:33:47  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

Didn't the second Blade of the Moonsea novel (the names were stupid of those novels, sorry can't remember) have a Spelljamming ship that travelled to the moon and back? Not sure any skyship could leave atmosphere so to me that makes it more of a Spelljamming vessel, but they also were loose with the canon back then.



Given the way gravity works in arcane space, I don't see any reason why a Halruaan skyship couldn't make it to Selűne and back... Though that journey might take longer than they'd have air for, and they'd need some method of propulsion aside from just the lift provided by the plates on the ship.

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Kentinal
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Posted - 01 Feb 2020 :  18:47:58  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert



Given the way gravity works in arcane space, I don't see any reason why a Halruaan skyship couldn't make it to Selűne and back... Though that journey might take longer than they'd have air for, and they'd need some method of propulsion aside from just the lift provided by the plates on the ship.



Would not a Halruaan skyship get caught between the two where gravity pull of both are equal? There would not be an up or down to push against.
As for air there should be spells that could be modified to provide air.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 01 Feb 2020 :  20:16:16  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert



Given the way gravity works in arcane space, I don't see any reason why a Halruaan skyship couldn't make it to Selűne and back... Though that journey might take longer than they'd have air for, and they'd need some method of propulsion aside from just the lift provided by the plates on the ship.



Would not a Halruaan skyship get caught between the two where gravity pull of both are equal? There would not be an up or down to push against.




I would say that would depend on how levitation magics work -- is the magic countering a specific amount of gravity, or is it simply pushing up?

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