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Ammu
Acolyte
2 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Jan 2020 : 09:25:36
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It is clear that paladins and clerics can receive direct orders from deities, and there is a mention "Clerics can commune with their deities" (Player's Guide To Faerun, p. 79). I also do know about Commune spell, but it can only prowide simple yer or no answers.
But can clerics and paladins really talk to their deities through prayers and hope to receive an answer more extended than yes or no? For example:
- Why did you leave me?
- Because you have sold your soul to demons.
Is the possibility of such communication considered to be up to the game master? Or is it ruled by setting strictly? I would also like to hear if constant avoiding of direct orders from deity to its paladins or other followers can be considered as "non-Forgotten Realms" game mastering, even if these direct orders are replaced by visions, signs ect.
I hope my english is not too bad and the question does not sound completely silly, and I'll be grateful for an answers.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2020 : 15:21:53
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Despite Gary's assertions, direct communication is both possible and has happened in canon. However, it is not the micromanagement he describes. Actual conversations with deities are rare; it's something that happens with only the most favored servants, and even in those cases, it's rare.
If you can find the 2E trilogy of deity books (Faiths & Avatars, Powers & Pantheons, and Demihuman Deities), then get those (DriveThruRPG has them as pdfs). Each deific write-up includes manifestations -- signs a deity will send, instead of direct communication. For example, page 167 of Faiths & Avatars describes Tymora's manifestations:
quote:
When manifesting on Faerūn, Tymora often takes the form of a silver bird or a silver pegasus. She also sends servant creatures to aid mortals in these shapes, as well as those of einheriar, faerie dragons, foo lions, swanmays, and unicorns. When showing her favor for a particularly blessed gambler, she has sometimes been known to manifest as a silver glow about a gambler that is evident only to that person and not those around him or her. When this happens, something favorable will happen in regard to the wager, whether it is the wagerer being more likely to win or even the bets being forced to be called off, in cases where the bet was rigged by the opposition.
Deities prefer to use manifestations to communicate with their followers; it is obviously up to the followers to observe, interpret, and act on those manifestations. And deities don't need to personally pop in to dictate hierarchies or correct followers on specific points of worship when they have other priests, followers, and divine servants to do things for them. Deities are like CEOs -- they let their organizations run themselves as much as possible, and they're not going to personally come to your office when they can have their admin send you an email.
Now, all that said... For clerics and paladins, I'd leave most communications to dreams and visions, at most, and even those wouldn't have the deity putting in an appearance. Maybe the paladin is wondering if he should do X or Y... and he has a dream that night where he sees himself doing Y, and it ends in disaster. Or maybe the cleric, when faced with an X or Y choice that they're not sure about, has a momentary vision that leads them to realizing there's a third choice.
Deities also have all sorts of divine servants. If something does need to be communicated, and requires more than a vision or feeling, that's when they can send one of their servants. Going with Tymora, for example, if she needs to actually tell one of her followers something, she can have a swanmay (or other servant on her list) show up, deliver the info and perhaps answer a few questions, then take off.
That's how the deities of the Realms are supposed to operate: indirectly, through signs and portents and servants. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2020 : 15:48:27
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As others pointed out, there are detailed listes of manifestations and ways of communication for each deity. You can find them, for example, in book like Demihuman Deities and Faiths and Avatars, and even the wiki reports commonly used manifestations in certain articles. That said, it's utimately up to you, as a DM.
IMO, while it certainly kills the fantasy mood, if deities are able to directly communicate with mortals, and if they have a set goal in mind, it makes absolutely no sense for them to not be as clear as possible. Efficient communication is invaluable to reach a goal, and can avoid misunderstandings and mistakes. So, if it's possible, there's no in-world reason for not using it; it's only an arbitrary design decision.
If you, OTOH, tell me that direct communication is impossible for some universal law, then things change, but in FR there have been examples that date back to the very beginning. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Ammu
Acolyte
2 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2020 : 17:01:59
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quote:
while it certainly kills the fantasy mood, if deities are able to directly communicate with mortals, and if they have a set goal in mind, it makes absolutely no sense for them to not be as clear as possible
That is the thing: why do deities create omens, signs and so forth while they are able to simply use words? Is the atmosphere the only reason? Or is there some Forgotten Realms law which regulates the nature of deities and explains their behaviour? Or, again, is it no certain rules and it is up to the game master? |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2020 : 17:14:45
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Since there have been cases of direct communication, there's no explicit rule that prevents the deities from communicating like that. So, the answer is that it's up to the DM. If you're going that route, though, I suggest to keep very well in mind that FR deities are far from omniscient, and to know beforehand what a given deity knows and what they don't.
On a side note, post-Sundering, there seems to be a rule that limits deity-mortal interaction. Then again, you still have things like Mystra directly talking to Laeral, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun showing up to their followers, and Lolth pulling Drizzt in front of her for some tea time. Things are totally up in the air, tbh. Go with what you like the most. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 26 Jan 2020 17:15:20 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3736 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2020 : 17:14:53
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| -The more direct a deity may be, the more attention it may attract by individuals and entities working in opposition of said deity. It might simply be easier to manifest a sign, or leave crumb hints, or tread lightly because it makes motives more difficult to pick up on. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2020 : 17:28:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-The more direct a deity may be, the more attention it may attract by individuals and entities working in opposition of said deity. It might simply be easier to manifest a sign, or leave crumb hints, or tread lightly because it makes motives more difficult to pick up on.
That's the biggest thing. The more visible a deity's action, the more visible the reaction to it. By delegating and working through mortals, it prevents a war among the deities. Throwing followers at each other does a lot less damage, overall, than direct divine conflict. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2020 : 17:45:35
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I'm not saying that a deity needs to directly say stuff, but they can very well tell a clear message to a servant and then send the servant to relay the message. Heck, even if a deity were to directly communicate something, instead of sending a dream with weird riddles, they could send a dream that is very clear on the message. The dream could also be a telepathic message, like that of Sending spell. I doubt that such things are visible or eclatant.
If that's sill a problem, then a deity could use some kind of code, like RW communications can be crypted. The important thing is that the message is clear to the recipient.
Really, clarity in communication is *vital* for the success of any sort of endeavor. Sacrificing it is bound to lead to disaster. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 26 Jan 2020 17:48:58 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2020 : 20:33:44
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| Communications from higher beings tend to be cryptic. They require effort and faith and wisdom to understand. They can be all-to-easily misunderstood or perceived in wrong context. They are typically vague and convoluted enough (to mere mortal minds) that their "meaning" applies in multiple ways towards conflicting things. Deities don't have to make any special efforts to dumb things down to childishly straightforward simplicities, in fact they seem to delight in "testing" their servants with divinely obfuscated directives (even when being benevolent or when communicating with each other). |
[/Ayrik] |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2020 : 02:54:38
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Spells are needed when the priest wants to talk and receive coherent answers.
When it's the other way around, it's easier, whether in response to a prayer or not.
There were lists of manifestations in FR AD&D2 sources.
This includes servants whom they can drop to Prime and plainly say the message. In exceptional cases.
In less than exceptional, there are those sudden glows and other hallmark cantrips to express approval/disapproval/"look over there!" in real time, and dream visions to show more complex things.
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People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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BrennonGoldeye
Learned Scribe
105 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2020 : 16:56:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
If you don't have access to the 2e god books Wooly listed, the manifestations for each deity are also included in the tables towards the back of this PDF: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20020504a
This PDF is wonderful for the question asked. I most highly recommend it! |
Sam |
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ElfBane
Learned Scribe
USA
275 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2020 : 23:28:15
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| Even a Chosen does not, usually, get a direct communication with their Deity. Their request just gets them to the top of the e-God list. Even then, they are usually communicated via slightly less oblique clues, or animal avatars that speak a bit more clearly. When it REALLY matters they will "call" you. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2020 : 00:22:11
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A 5th level cleric spell already has clerics talking to their god.
The best answer is that most deities are too busy to listen to every cleric whining at them. |
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Communication With Deities
