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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1289 Posts

Posted - 18 Jan 2020 :  20:42:48  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Until my muse returns and banishes my writer's block for the completion of the Hardbuckler update, I am researching Iriaebor's history between the FR Adventures (1358) and Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast (1368). Has it been said anywhere how the Zhentarium gained control of Iriaebor in 1363? I don't believe it could have been a military campaign since the most I have seen for troops at Darkhold has been in the 1,000 to 2,000 range and Iriaebor is consistantly listed as having 8,000 during this period. If destructive magic was used, then Calderan would have noticed destroyed parts of the city (being from Iriaebor) and it would have been mentioned in the book.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents

ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
2065 Posts

Posted - 18 Jan 2020 :  20:46:42  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

Until my muse returns and banishes my writer's block for the completion of the Hardbuckler update, I am researching Iriaebor's history between the FR Adventures (1358) and Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast (1368). Has it been said anywhere how the Zhentarium gained control of Iriaebor in 1363? I don't believe it could have been a military campaign since the most I have seen for troops at Darkhold has been in the 1,000 to 2,000 range and Iriaebor is consistantly listed as having 8,000 during this period. If destructive magic was used, then Calderan would have noticed destroyed parts of the city (being from Iriaebor) and it would have been mentioned in the book.



I assume you read "Crypt of the Shadowking" and "Curse of the Shadowmage"?

--Eric

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1289 Posts

Posted - 18 Jan 2020 :  20:53:01  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I tried to. I just couldn't get into the first one. I got about 30 pages in and it just didn't grab me. I do remember that he didn't say in those pages about any large areas of the city damaged or destroyed and there was no mention about scorch marks or other damage to the High Tower of Iriaebor.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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TBeholder
Great Reader

2377 Posts

Posted - 19 Jan 2020 :  10:13:37  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
DR 1367, Iriaebor: Spotted Plague
In novels:
1357 DR, Iriaebor: Crypt of the Shadowking (Mark Anthony)
1368 DR, Iriaebor: The Devil and Tertius Wands (Jeff Grubb)

An earlier thread: "Material about Iriaebor"
Of more tenuous, there's my pet theory is that Iriaebor has more than its share of, ahem, "cultural exchange" with the City of Dark Weavings. Have fun?


People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1265 Posts

Posted - 19 Jan 2020 :  12:05:18  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

I tried to. I just couldn't get into the first one. I got about 30 pages in and it just didn't grab me. I do remember that he didn't say in those pages about any large areas of the city damaged or destroyed and there was no mention about scorch marks or other damage to the High Tower of Iriaebor.



The take over of the city in that novel is a bit horribly written from my end, one of my problems with the story. A Zhent agent, using a stupid alias name, simply is in charge of the city and the previous lord of the city is thrown in chains about a year before the novel starts. It's not implied if this take over is sanctioned by the populace, but the guards and nobles seem to go along with it until the "rules" about drinking and curfews start to make the populace mad - but no one really rebels because of fear of retribution until the Harpers cause trouble.

Over time, I think people are stolen from their homes and made to slave below the city, and its said/written that fear of their relatives being killed if the populace rebels keep them in line.

I don't understand how the leader got deposed and imprisoned in the first place (this is *never* explained, nor the reaction of the people and nobles/ruling class or neighbour cities when this happened). Nor do we get any world building beyond the Harpers sending ONE LONE UNTRAINED NOVICE to liberate the city - you would think everyone on the trading routes between the east and the west would want to stop the Zhents from taking over such a key city.

I actually like the book as a whole, but this whole covert city takeover plot with no ramnifications until after its been a year or so is really not well written and doesn't fit into the Realms (bad writing).

Edit - I should add that an agent of the dormant Shadowking (named "Snake" which is another stupid name in this book!) likely helps with the Zhent takeover; although how and what the agent does to make the covert takeover happen is not explained. On reflection, I really would have liked a better written explanation for how the city came under Zhent control and what the response was from the other cities around.

Edited by - Seravin on 19 Jan 2020 12:20:21
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 19 Jan 2020 :  13:53:09  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The names in those books are just horrible.

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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1265 Posts

Posted - 19 Jan 2020 :  16:50:31  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For sure. Snake, Cutter, Ravendas, Mari Al'Maren, Caledan Caldorian are awful.
Estah, Tyveris and Morhion are passable I suppose. I kind of like Ferret the Thief as a name :)

Re: Shadevar/Shadevari - The less said about naming yet another big bad evil some variant of Shade or Shadows, the better!!
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Arivia
Great Reader

Canada
2965 Posts

Posted - 19 Jan 2020 :  17:40:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Caledan Caldorian sounds okay for an FR name. A little bland, but I’ve seen worse Chondathan middling names.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 19 Jan 2020 :  21:22:20  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia

Caledan Caldorian sounds okay for an FR name. A little bland, but I’ve seen worse Chondathan middling names.



Both first and last names are fine, if taken without the other. It's the combination of the two that makes it horrible -- especially since the author also did the repeating syllable thing with Mari Al'Maren.


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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1289 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2020 :  20:50:24  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

I tried to. I just couldn't get into the first one. I got about 30 pages in and it just didn't grab me. I do remember that he didn't say in those pages about any large areas of the city damaged or destroyed and there was no mention about scorch marks or other damage to the High Tower of Iriaebor.



The take over of the city in that novel is a bit horribly written from my end, one of my problems with the story. A Zhent agent, using a stupid alias name, simply is in charge of the city and the previous lord of the city is thrown in chains about a year before the novel starts. It's not implied if this take over is sanctioned by the populace, but the guards and nobles seem to go along with it until the "rules" about drinking and curfews start to make the populace mad - but no one really rebels because of fear of retribution until the Harpers cause trouble.

Over time, I think people are stolen from their homes and made to slave below the city, and its said/written that fear of their relatives being killed if the populace rebels keep them in line.

I don't understand how the leader got deposed and imprisoned in the first place (this is *never* explained, nor the reaction of the people and nobles/ruling class or neighbour cities when this happened). Nor do we get any world building beyond the Harpers sending ONE LONE UNTRAINED NOVICE to liberate the city - you would think everyone on the trading routes between the east and the west would want to stop the Zhents from taking over such a key city.

I actually like the book as a whole, but this whole covert city takeover plot with no ramnifications until after its been a year or so is really not well written and doesn't fit into the Realms (bad writing).

Edit - I should add that an agent of the dormant Shadowking (named "Snake" which is another stupid name in this book!) likely helps with the Zhent takeover; although how and what the agent does to make the covert takeover happen is not explained. On reflection, I really would have liked a better written explanation for how the city came under Zhent control and what the response was from the other cities around.



I am just going to have to sit down and read the book (I had to read books for English class in high school, I can always do it again). Based on what was in the GHoTR, this is what I came up with. Once I read the book, I can mutate this to be closer to canon.

1362:
Mirtul 8: New stories start being told in several Western Heartland cities and towns of an exiled Tethyrian noble woman going by the name “Lord Cutter” who is helping people all over the region.

Mirtul 16: The mage Magara Plomakus arrives quietly in Iriaebor. An aspiring pupil of Ashemmi of the Darkhold, Magara is in Iriaebor to spy on Remlo Anturian, the Lord Steward of Iriaebor, as part of a larger plan for the Darkhold to take over Iriaebor.

Eleasias 10: Lord Ravendas of the Zhentarim, now using the name “Lord Cutter”, arrives in Iriaebor. She quickly gains a reputation for being generous and caring about the people of Iriaebor.

Nightal 1: The Zhentarim plans for Iriaebor progess as the mage Magara Plomakus is able to quietly kill the Lord Steward of Iriaebor and, using magic, assume the form and mannerisms of Lord Steward Remlo Anturian. No one detects the switch and beyond a couple of small snags, the replacement is flawless.

Nightal 14: The Zhentarim kidnap Bron in Iriaebor. Rumors are immediately started by Zhentarim agents in the city that Bron fled because he was about to be found out as being a crook (false).

1363:
Hammer 18: Citing “evidence” that the previous administration was corrupt, “Lord Steward Anturian” pushes through a vote of the Merchant Council that an outsider needs to be the new Lord of Iriaebor. “Lord Cutter” is installed as the new ruler of Iriaebor. The populace of Iriaebor is stunned that the person that they trusted, Bron, was not as he seemed.

Hammer 22: Certain members of the leaders of The Shield of Iriaebor are arrested on the charges of being complicent with the previous corrupt administration. They are replaced with “Irieaban patriots” who are secretly part of the Zhentarim.

Alturiak 11: “Lord Cutter” starts replacing current members of the Merchant Council. These new members are either existing merchant families that have been coerced into following the Zhentarim’s orders or are new merchants (also Zhentarim).

Tarsakh 1: The takeover of Iriaebor is complete. The Zhentarim control the Merchant’s Council and the Shield. New rules start coming out that are more and more repressive. Anyone who disagrees with these new rules publicly are arrested and taken to the dungeons of the High Tower.

Tarsakh 10: Seeing how things are going in Iriaebor, Aurora closes her Emporium shop there and relocates its stock to other locations.

Kythorn 1: The people of Iriaebor have their spirit broken by this time. The city is no longer what it used to be. The Zhentarim are stripping the town of its wealth and anything that comes through the city is seized for their own enrichment.

Eleasias 1: Night is the time for cutthroats and criminals in Iriaebor. None of the citizens go out at night for fear of being killed or worse, taken to the High Tower and never seen again. It is also around this time that a new rumor is speading: Lord Cutter had something to do with the disappearance of Bron and it is all a lie that he was anything other than what he seemed.

Marpenoth 13: Bron is rescued and restored to leadership of Iriaebor. His first order is that all Zhentarim in the Shield and those that have positions on the merchant council are to be arrested immediately.

Marpenoth 15: It takes a couple of days but those Zhentarim that weren’t able to escape are tossed into the dungeons of the High Tower of Iriaebor. Several of the members of the Men of the Basilisk are caught up in the dragnet since they were trying to use the confusion to grab power for themselves.

Uktar 1-30: The trials of the Zhentarim prisoners begins at the start of the month and continue throughout. It is no small surprise, given the amount of testimony given, that all are found guilty and executed for their crimes. This actually reduces the number of members of the Men of the Basilisk in Iriaebor to only five.

Nightal 1: It has taken almost five tendays but Iriaebor proper is almost back to normal. The Iriaeban Underworld, however, is still in turmoil due to the Night Skulls losing the support of the government. Bron works with the group that rescued him to try to clean out this evil from his city.

1364:
Alturiak 18: Cormik, an associate of the group that rescued Bron, officially reforms the Broken Daggers after weeding out the last of the Zhentarim backed Night Skulls.

Alturiak 30: Aurora reopens her shop in Iriaebor.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1265 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2020 :  22:18:02  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay---so that timeline sort of explains it I guess how the covert takeover happened - not really sure why none of the other cities in the region took notice or that the Harpers didn't do more to stop it. But I like that it was subtle, using magic and disguises and that "Lord Cutter" was supposed to be from Tethyr and started out super generous and nice to gain favour. None of this made it into the novel either as exposition or story though! But it makes sense now...

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 20 Jan 2020 :  22:31:31  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That seems an awfully tight timeframe to begin undermining a trusted figure, take over, break everyone's spirit, get kicked out, and things reset back to normal.

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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1289 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2020 :  22:35:35  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I haven't read the book yet so that is mostly stuff that I came up with (GHoTR has very little info on it beyond the start and end dates). But, to answer your question about why the Harpers wouldn't have sent in someone more experienced or taken a greater interest is that, from what I have, it took a while before the nasty stuff started happening so it looked like a legitimate change of rulers. Later, when it started getting bad, the Harpers had to worry about the Devils from Dragonspear Castle and their horde wandering around, generally not being very nice to whatever/whomever they meet (GHoTR p146).

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
2065 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2020 :  23:32:38  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
Re: Shadevar/Shadevari - The less said about naming yet another big bad evil some variant of Shade or Shadows, the better!!



That's not entirely fair to the author, as he was first. (Malaugrym hadn't been revealed yet, IIRC, although Ed had invented them long ago.)

I totally agree that we have too many shade-variant evil-dudes.

--ERic

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1289 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2020 :  01:05:11  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

That seems an awfully tight timeframe to begin undermining a trusted figure, take over, break everyone's spirit, get kicked out, and things reset back to normal.


In the FR Adventures, it mentions that Bron's rule is shaky so he doesn't have an Azoun-level of trust. In my timeline, he only became the Lord of Iriaebor in 1355. Then, at the end of 1358, the Zhent-backed Night Skulls kill the last of the Broken Dagger thieves. They spend 1359 getting their hooks into as much as possible. By 1360, the Harpers have taken notice so they start shifting people into Iriaebor to combat the Night Skulls. The Skull's pretty quickly realize they have made a mistake so they go "underground" and start doing more behind the scenes. Between them and Nathlar, the Zhent master illusionist mentioned in FR Adventures, they destabilize things more so really, things were ripe for a take over by the time "Lord Cutter" appears on the scene. They trusted him based on what he did in the past but it wasn't an unquestioning trust. Now, after he is restored and the lies the Zhents had told are revealed, his general amount of trust with the people of Iriaebor has most certainly increased.

I started the topic by limiting it to between the ToT and Volo so I didn't mention anything that I had pre-Tot. I actually have stuff back to Bron's birth in Iriaebor and the idea that he is actually distantly related to some noble family in Cormyr. I have't decided if it is actually a relation to the king via a bastard born to Azoun I when he passed through the area in 376DR (I am trying to avoid a Star Wars level of character inbreeding).

As an aside, it is stuff like this that I really enjoy. Trying to take something that really looks like there is no way it could have logically happened and then fill in the holes so it does.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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AJA
Senior Scribe

USA
747 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2020 :  01:24:42  Show Profile Send AJA a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Ed just glanced on Iriaebor in a Twitter response on Asbravn;
quote:
Originally posted by https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1218955830399324160
At that time, the Zhentarim were tightening their grip on Iriaebor (see Mark Anthony’s Harper novel Crypt of the Shadowking), so some folk from that city got out and relocated to Asbravn—and so did many many Zhent agents, to get in on the metals trade by running smelters in the Asbravn area.

Might be worth asking him about his thoughts on the Zhent takeover.


AJA
YAFRP
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1265 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2020 :  14:07:36  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
Re: Shadevar/Shadevari - The less said about naming yet another big bad evil some variant of Shade or Shadows, the better!!



That's not entirely fair to the author, as he was first. (Malaugrym hadn't been revealed yet, IIRC, although Ed had invented them long ago.)

I totally agree that we have too many shade-variant evil-dudes.

--ERic



Haha fair enough! And I agree... as bad evils we have Shadow Masters, Shade, Shadovar, Shadow King, Shadow Mage, Shadevari (not to be confused with Shadovar!), Shadow Dragons, etc ...not to mention there are already beings from the Plane of Shadow, Shar herself that originally had nothing to do with the Plane of Shadow, and her priests, monster manual things called Shadows, the Shadow Weave...I think we get the idea!

Naming things has to be the least difficult part of the creative process but can really derail otherwise brilliant stories.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2020 :  15:07:01  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

(snip)Shar herself that originally had nothing to do with the Plane of Shadow, (snip)



That is one of the things that has bugged me the most about the entire "ALL SHAR, ALL THE TIME!" show that WotC got stuck on.

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TBeholder
Great Reader

2377 Posts

Posted - 22 Jan 2020 :  21:03:01  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Duskos Trading Coster
“Malanxer’s Tongue”/“the Black Tongue” magazine
RedSerpent House trading coster
Night Parade.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

That is one of the things that has bugged me the most about the entire "ALL SHAR, ALL THE TIME!" show that WotC got stuck on.

Standard editorial meeting decision making process?

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1289 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2020 :  00:37:00  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you for that information. Since there are so many Night Parade in Irieabor, I wrote a tool that will randomly generate a Night Parade member based on the tables in the Villain's Lorebook. That should help define the leader(s) and what kind of mischief they can cause.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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