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 Balor Tanar'ri, or Pit Fiend baatezu?
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore

1078 Posts

Posted - 17 Jan 2020 :  18:55:44  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Which in your opinion would win in a arena fight 1 on 1?

Both have sick, sick powers and abilities and skills and innate spells that would crush any single PC of less than 15'th level. What beast do you think would win, and why do you think so?

Thanks,
CEV

Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3989 Posts

Posted - 17 Jan 2020 :  19:56:37  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Depends on the edition...since you used their 2e AD&D designations I guess it is after my area of expertise. In 1e a Pit Fiend was without a doubt the winner in these confrontations by simple matter of Hit Dice, slightly better Armor Class and so on.

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore

1078 Posts

Posted - 17 Jan 2020 :  20:17:50  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Depends on the edition...since you used their 2e AD&D designations I guess it is after my area of expertise. In 1e a Pit Fiend was without a doubt the winner in these confrontations by simple matter of Hit Dice, slightly better Armor Class and so on.



And in 2ed, and 3.5 ed? I play only 3.5 anymore. I guess I should have disclosed that. ;)

Last time I played 1ED Advanced D&D, it was 1990, when I was 16 years old. Then I moved on to 2ED and memorized ThAcO. lmao.

Then I had to convert my 2ED game to 3ED and 3.5 ED mechanics. I prefer 3.5 now and have stuck with that.




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Arivia
Great Reader

Canada
2965 Posts

Posted - 17 Jan 2020 :  21:03:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
In 3.5, it's clearly the pit fiend. There's options in Fiendish Codex II for it to swap out its spell level abilities, allowing it to crush the balor with lawful spells (and removing useless ones, like switching out meteor swarm [which the balor is immune to] for Bigby's Crushing Hand). The balor has no corresponding variants, sadly.

In Pathfinder, it's arguably the reverse, as balor lords are more powerful than dukes of hell, and get their unique power in addition to increased general strength (dukes of hell have to choose one or the other.)
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Ayrik
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Canada
7189 Posts

Posted - 18 Jan 2020 :  00:38:50  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Depends largely on the battlefield as well. The Blood War has raged back and forth across all the Lower Planes for half of eternity, but the Lawful properties of some planes favour baatezu and the Chaotic properties of some planes favour tanar'ri. The mightiest pit fiend or balor or archdevil - even Asmodeus himself - could not hope to prevail against endless demon hordes in the deepest layers of the Infinite Abyss.

Some Primes are strongly aligned along the Law-Chaos axis, giving decisive advantage to some fiends over others. Other Primes (like Toril) are more "balanced" (from a fiend-vs-fiend perspective) but instead policed by planars, celestials, outsiders, and whole pantheons of local Powers - none of which tolerates disruptive fiendish interlopers. Even Asmodeus cannot install himself as a supreme power in such places when he is opposed by local deities.

[/Ayrik]
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1241 Posts

Posted - 18 Jan 2020 :  01:19:18  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
70-30 in favor of the pit fiend. The balor is immune to the baatezu's fire attacks, but the pit fiend is immune to mostly everything the balor has, has a higher damage output (high Str) and better SR.

Someone on GitP did the math; the balor's only hopes are implosion and dominate monster, otherwise the pit fiend curbstomps.

Edited by - LordofBones on 18 Jan 2020 01:22:33
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Brimstone
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USA
3178 Posts

Posted - 18 Jan 2020 :  03:41:45  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Whoever win Initiative...

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
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will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep

Edited by - Brimstone on 18 Jan 2020 03:42:02
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1241 Posts

Posted - 19 Jan 2020 :  02:46:48  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

Whoever win Initiative...



Hilariously enough, that favors the pit fiend too; Init +12 vs Init +11 for the balor.
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore

1078 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2020 :  19:30:57  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

70-30 in favor of the pit fiend. The balor is immune to the baatezu's fire attacks, but the pit fiend is immune to mostly everything the balor has, has a higher damage output (high Str) and better SR.

Someone on GitP did the math; the balor's only hopes are implosion and dominate monster, otherwise the pit fiend curbstomps.



After going back to my books (i'm always tired from work) in 3.5 I agree. Pit fiend has it. I just always remembered the 1ED Advanced D&D Balor being top dog among the two. When I first heard of Myth Drannor going down under 3 Nycaloths like 20 some odd years ago, I was like, "What is a Nycaloth?" lol.

So I guess what is more powerful in everyone's opinion...

A Pit Fiend or a Nycaloth in 3.5? Hell, throw a standard Solar in the mix and compare the three to one another. Who comes out the victor?

Seriously, I'm curious what all the opinions may be and why.

Thanks.
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Dalor Darden
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USA
3989 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2020 :  19:53:10  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I havenít seen an edition yet where a Solar doesnít kill pretty much anything

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
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Arivia
Great Reader

Canada
2965 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2020 :  00:16:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

I havenít seen an edition yet where a Solar doesnít kill pretty much anything



Yep, the solar has incredible advantages in pretty much every comparison. A nycaloth in 3.5 doesn't remotely compare to any of the others, even the advanced version in the MM3 still gets instantly destroyed.
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore

1078 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2020 :  01:13:17  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm just confused... How did 3 Nycaloths and an army of orcs, goblins and bugbears destroy a city of elves with a powerful Mythal being protected by powerful elven fighters, rogues, and arcane, and divine casters?

So you're saying a Pit Fiend could do better than a NYcaloth?
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1241 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2020 :  01:37:15  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well...yes?

The top dogs of the 'loths are the ultroloths. The problem is that WotC neglected them big time (the arcanaloth was updated in Dungeon magazine; the issue with Iggwilv's manor in the Savage Tide path, IIRC), so the poor buggers never quite recovered.

Solars murderstomp everything though, but angels aren't part of the standard outsider heirarchy. They're godly servants, not one of the good exemplar races. I guess there could be theoretical evil equivalents of the angels serving evil deities, but they've never been explored.

Anyway, it's power of plot. Just like Mordenkainen being blindsided by Strahd and losing to him, which is sort of like Doctor Doom being beaten by Scooby Doo.
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Arivia
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Canada
2965 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2020 :  02:55:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

I'm just confused... How did 3 Nycaloths and an army of orcs, goblins and bugbears destroy a city of elves with a powerful Mythal being protected by powerful elven fighters, rogues, and arcane, and divine casters?

So you're saying a Pit Fiend could do better than a NYcaloth?



Game stats have never really had an absolute ton to do with how the setting or novels are written. Like Lord of Bones mentioned, yugoloths didn't really get treated well in 3e, and that leads to their disparity in the edition you've chosen to compare things. (Although he's wrong about some details - the ultroloths get a 3.5 update in MM3, the arcanaloths have 3e stats in the MM2, but that's just 3.0; neither of those is still as strong as a pit fiend, balor, or solar.)

That said, the Trio Nefarious have a bit more going on than a "standard" nycaloth. This old scroll discusses their hidden fourth member, revealed by Ed: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13230
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
33902 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2020 :  03:18:11  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

I'm just confused... How did 3 Nycaloths and an army of orcs, goblins and bugbears destroy a city of elves with a powerful Mythal being protected by powerful elven fighters, rogues, and arcane, and divine casters?



The same way orcs, goblins, and bugbears have defeated elves on so many other occasions: numbers. An individual elf might be able to take down 20 orcs, by themself... But when it's 100 to 1, that elf is going down.

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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1241 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2020 :  03:35:24  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia

quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

I'm just confused... How did 3 Nycaloths and an army of orcs, goblins and bugbears destroy a city of elves with a powerful Mythal being protected by powerful elven fighters, rogues, and arcane, and divine casters?

So you're saying a Pit Fiend could do better than a NYcaloth?



Game stats have never really had an absolute ton to do with how the setting or novels are written. Like Lord of Bones mentioned, yugoloths didn't really get treated well in 3e, and that leads to their disparity in the edition you've chosen to compare things. (Although he's wrong about some details - the ultroloths get a 3.5 update in MM3, the arcanaloths have 3e stats in the MM2, but that's just 3.0; neither of those is still as strong as a pit fiend, balor, or solar.)

That said, the Trio Nefarious have a bit more going on than a "standard" nycaloth. This old scroll discusses their hidden fourth member, revealed by Ed: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13230



The 'loths still got the worst of it in 3.5e. The ultroloths are CR 13; Dungeon magazine updated the arcanaloth to CR 17 during the Savage Tide adventure path.
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