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 Rashemen - fey or primal?
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keftiu
Senior Scribe

656 Posts

Posted - 13 Jan 2020 :  07:52:39  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
...and yes, I know the answer by canon is “fey,” but I’d like a discussion here.

4e introduced primal magic as a distinct concept, separate from arcane and divine; it drew on the spirits of the world (not elementals and not fey, but those of nature on the Material), as well as ancestor spirits and some more abstract stuff. Assuming such a division, what are the odds that the magic of the Rashemi witches is primal in nature? It could be my ignorance, but I never got a strong fey feeling from that land, especially with how married most things fey in the Realms are to elves (or more traditional Western European-inspired fey like in the Moonshaes).

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.

Balmar Foghaven
Learned Scribe

Canada
124 Posts

Posted - 13 Jan 2020 :  15:08:11  Show Profile Send Balmar Foghaven a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I feel like the concept of "primal magic" needed to be better defined. The depiction of primal source characters as channeling the raw power of nature is interesting, but are these spirits of nature somehow different than the fey spirits, who are also described as closely related to nature?

"Despair not, for in the end all things shall work out for the best - in at least one timeline."
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
948 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2020 :  00:55:00  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So in various editions we've had the concept of spirits (there were spirit folk in Rashemen too). In 3.5E they were all fey, all elementals, and incorporeal undead. I think that covers what we are looking at in Rashamen with both the hathran and durthan.

That said, I liked the concept of primal from 4E a lot and I think that fits well too and probably better. And with the Feywild and Shadowfell being echoes of the Prime Material, it works that the witches are able to tap into the primal spirits from Rashemen's echo in both of those planes as well (with durthan likely tapping more Shadowfell and hathran more Feywild, though not exclusively).



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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2020 :  09:48:37  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In 3.5e they introduced the spirit world in a different format. Basically, its coexistent and coterminous with material plane, and it also serves as the astral to reach the outer planes...OR a place like the feywild.

In the 3.5e Players Guide to Faerun they employ the spirit world in Kara-Tur, and I'd personally recommend an interesting variation that me and BadCatMan were discussing to extend to other areas of the world. So, perhaps SOME folks can see into this spirit realm that is "overlayed" onto FR. Many of these folks are known as shamans or spirit shamans. Some may be known as "binders" or "occultist binders" or "animists" or "theurgist adepts" or "sha'irs" or "archfey warlocks" or "totemist" or "incarnum users" and they allow spirits to share their senses to experience this world via their body or soul using some form of pact magic.

The idea I see is one in which belief helps someone look upon this realm of spirits and interact with it IF they believe. So, in Kara-Tur, the people up there look up in the sky and SEE the Celestial Bureaucracy in the Heavens. There may be many Kara-Turan Dragons that the people of Faerun just don't see flying about. Periodically, the people of Kara-Tur may bind these dragons into structures (such as the dragon wall).

Translating that into Rashemen, I'd say its something similar, with the Hathran being introduced into some form of ability to see into this spirit realm which is overlayed over Rashemen. I wouldn't limit it to these two areas either. I'd put a lot of the Hordelands under the same belief... probably the frozen lands above Rashemen as well, the wild lands that the Uthgardt barbarians call their tribal homes are probably closely linked to the spirit world, the Hordelands probably has sections of this (particularly where Raumathar was in the north), the Yuirwood, and the plains of the Shaar, and I'd extend it into other continents like Anchorome, Katashaka, Maztica, Osse, and even Zakhara. I'd venture that where there are specifically a godly pantheon holding sway, the links to the spirit world weaken and fray.

What exactly does this mean? Well, the Rashemi already have this concept of "telthors" of their ancestors that come back to help defend the land. These telthors are "ethereal" as in they "exist in our world but in another". Its not hard to say that that other realm ISN'T the ethereal plane and is instead the Spirit World. What this would also mean is that in these realms... the souls of the dead do not go to the outer planes... they stay in the world, similar in some ways to how elves were said to "fade to Arvandor". Which, if the GODS are associated with the outer planes and when you die and worshipped THEM you go THERE.... but if you didn't worship a god, but instead the primal spirits, you transition to the spirit world, to a place that infuses the world with magic with your spirits (until something there devours your spirit).

However, not all telthors are the spirits of the dead come back. Some are the embodiment of creatures. One novel has a telthor of a griffin that shows up. So, perhaps these are the "spirits" of the spirit world transitioning to ours. Hathrans and Durthans both look upon this world with wonder and entreat the powers of this world for protection. I would venture however that Durthans are MORE in tune with this realm than Hathrans. They've been given bad publicity, but I imagine they go off alone to interact with these spirits.

But its not just Hathrans and Durthans. The Vremyonni are masters at crafting constructs. I venture that these constructs are in fact "shells" animated by spirits rather than the traditional constructs seen in other areas of the realms. They make magic items that may be items inhabited by spirits (a wand of fire may be infused with a spirit of fire).

So, what else? They have a powerful goddess known as "The Hidden One" that has been related to Selune and has been related to Mystra. What if she's "hidden" because she's a power of the spirit world that can only be interacted with by someone willing to go there and trade for power. I've also personally opted for Bhalla and Khelliara to NOT be Chauntea and Mielikki (Faerunians WANT it to be that, so they spread false rumor), but instead being great spirits. Bhalla to me is possibly the same creature or possibly an echo of Audumbla the great cow of norse myth, who licked the world free of the icy rime (and she probably taught the Durthan some secrets of ice magic). Khelliara could be a similar being in the form of Eikthyrnir, the norse stag that stood on Valhalla and ate from the world tree, and the droplets of dew that dripped from its horns caused rivers to form.

You will notice in both of the other gods, I made a reference to Norse myth. I believe that the concepts of Norse Mythology could also fit well in this context, and given Rashemen's Slavic/Norse bent (with the Rus coming and prior), the spirit realm and Ysgard may be very "close". One of the things I personally wanted to do was that in these lands, belief holds sway in a weird way, in that what some folk might consider "the gods" can actually be seen doing the things we're told they do in myth. The most prominent version of that might be seeing a sun god pulling the sun in the sky while riding a golden furred and antlered fox (this would be from my metahel pantheon)…. but only those who believe see it, and other folk …. if convinced to believe... may begin to see it..... and maybe... just maybe... Leira somehow benefits from enabling this to return to Toril (sorry, had to throw that in).

From the 3.5e PGtF
THE SPIRIT WORLD
The Spirit World described in the Appendix in Manual of the Planes is coexistent with and coterminous to the Material Plane, but only in Kara-Tur. Each deity of Kara-Tur’s Celestial Bureaucracy has a small realm attached to the Spirit World. Because it is a transitive plane, the Spirit World replaces the Astral Plane in Kara-Tur.


From 3.5e Manual of the Planes
[i]The Spirit World is a realm brought into sharp focus. Colors are brighter, sounds more distinct, and every sense is more keenly aware of its surroundings. Some of its denizens say that the Material Plane is just a pale reflection of the Spirit World's vibrancy. It is a dimension of ultimates.

The Spirit World is pan of a cosmology radically different from the Great Wheel. In this cosmology, there are spirits for everything, from the greatest mountain to the smallest flower, as well as spirits of ancestors and objects long passed into history. The Spirit World is the plane where the spirits of all things, living and unliving, make their homes.

The Spirit World is a Transitive Plane that replaces the Astral Plane of the D&D cosmology. Unlike that plane, the Spirit World is both coexistent with and coterminous to the Material Plane, matching its terrain. A valley in the Spirit World corresponds to a valley on the Material Plane, and where there is a waterfall in one, there is a waterfall in the other. In the case of the Spirit World, however, the waterfall is higher, its water more pure, and its sound more pleasing than that of its equivalent on the Material Plane.

The Spirit World's waterfall would likely be the home of a water elemental that serves as the spirit of the waterfall. Living creatures and their structures, from beaver dams to palaces, do not necessarily have direct analogs. However, where a citadel stands on the Material Plane, a similar citadel (though greater and stronger) may stand in the Spirit World, occupied by the spirits of revered ancestors of the Material Plane citadel's ruler.


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
948 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2020 :  02:15:53  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like the idea of the Hidden One actually being the primal spirit of the Weave.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2020 :  14:31:22  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta

I like the idea of the Hidden One actually being the primal spirit of the Weave.



Yeah, in my Complete Red Book of Spell Strategy, I kind of did some theorizing on the Hidden One and Rashemen. I also tried to adapt the hathran, durthan, and vremyonni to 5e to a degree.

https://www.dmsguild.com/product/189094/The-Complete-Red-Book-of-Spell-Strategy?term=complete+red+book+

Some extrapolations below

one of the most well kept secrets of the Vremyonni is the fact that they are charged with protecting a Feygate. It is said that on the other side is a relatively young being of power that “The Hidden One” wishes protected. Who or what this being is, or where this Feygate leads is unknown even to its guardians. In fact, they do not even know how to open it. What is certain is that the most powerful and eldest of the Vremyonni consider it their sacred duty to protect this Feygate, and numerous Telthor Spirits have devoted themselves to its protection as well.

and later I do some theorizing on the Rashemi "Pantheon"

On the Nature of Rashemen's Pantheon

The Witches and people of Rashemen do not worship the standard Faerunian Pantheon. The people of Rashemen mainly worship a collective of three main female goddesses, though they also give reverence to special spirit beings local only to Rashemen. These spirits (known locally as Telthors, see new monster template in the new monster section) are ghostlike beings, being either beasts which seem to spontaneously appear or humanoids who died in service to the land of Rashemen. The people of Rashemen also hold the members of the various Fey Courts in high reverence as well (such as the Courts of Spring, Summer, Autumn, and Winter, the Unseelie Court, the Court of Green Fey, the court of Gloaming Fey <sometimes referred to as the Court of the Moon>). Of these courts, both the Prince of Frost and the Queen of Air & Darkness (whom some say is Auril) have become popular amongst the Bheur hags and certain rogue Wychlaran factions. The elemental lords, Kossuth, Akadi, Grumbar, and Istishia have also always enjoyed some reverence in the region, mostly due to their influence on the former empire of Raumathar. In addition, certain Faerunian gods have begun to make significan inroads, including Lurue and Nobanion, as well as the goddess Leira (whom some say is a daughter of “The Hidden One” though who can tell the truth of such matters). Other deities have minor followings, for instance amongst the males, Gond, Helm, Hoar “the Doombringer”, and Tempus all have limited followers. Amongst the hags of the region, deities such as Beshaba, Cegilune, Kiaransalee, Shar, and Talona all have followers, as well as those who follow the Queen of Air and Darkness.

The true nature of “the Three”, Bhalla, Khelliara, and “The Hidden One”, is a mystery. Westerners believe them simply to be aspects of Chauntea, Mielikki, and Mystra. Some others have posited that they are remnants of the ancient Yuir deities once worshipped by humans in the region. Others believe they are some form of Archfey, Primordial, or simply powerful Spirit being leftover from the early days of Toril. Still others claim that Bhalla, with her cow representation, is related to the being that giant mythology claims nursed the original giant deities, and that Khelliara, with her deer representation, is related to an ancient being of Shaundalar mythology known as Flidais. Some say that the earthmother of the Moonshaes and Bhalla are one and the same, and that Chauntea is attempting to usurp them both. Still others believe that Bhalla and Khelliara were racial deities of the Hybsil and Minotaurs who were adopted by the humans of the region, much as Felidae, the cat goddess, had been before being subsumed by Bast.

Rashemi doctrine says that Bhalla is a mother goddess who it is said was around at the founding of the world as a great cow amidst a sea of icy rime. From the elemental chaos, heat slowly came to the darkness, causing the salty rime in which she found herself to begin to melt. It is said that this icy salt did melt enough at one point that it became a sea around her, and in the process somehow the salty sea did make her become pregnant. Bhalla then gave birth to a set of twins, Khelliarr and Khelliara. Khelliarr was a power of great light and love, but he did not survive these early times. Khelliara would go on to become a wild power of nature and hunting, with a particular affinity for snow and skiing. Bhalla has given birth to other children by other powerful beings (such as Magnar the Bear, Relkath of the Infinite Branches, Skerrit the Forester, Talisid the Celestial Lion) but the names of most of these children have been lost to history for the most part, though some are still called upon as powerful spirits within Rashemen. She has even given birth to some unusual races, such as the small, singing mushrooms known as Campestri, said to have been birthed upon her by the Carrion King of the Feywild in return for a favor. The Rashemi truly believe that the Mulhorandi goddess Hathor is simply an aspect of Bhalla, and that this is why the other Mulhorandi gods look down upon her. The Mulhorandi of course consider this sacrilege. The original Rus who arrived in Rashemen referred to Bhalla by the name Audumbla and were surprised by the reverence given her by the local populace, but as they bred with the Raumviran population and learned their ways, proper reverence for Bhalla was soon as natural to them as breathing.

Khelliara is seen as a similar goddess, though she is seen more often as a huntress and master of Forests. She is known to take the shape of a red deer, and some suspect that PindalPau-Pau, the Reindeer Mother of the people of the Great Glacier is actually an aspect of Khelliara. However, she is also known to take on the shape of wild red mares, red falcons, red foxes, and wily reddish-brown rabbits. Many believe that Mielikki and Khelliara are one and the same, and perhaps over time this exchange has occurred, but the Rashemi steadfastly refuse to believe such. It is said that Khelliara is served by “the Hart Maidens” or women spirit warriors who can and do take on the forms of female deer to provide spiritual guidance to the people of Rashemen. Some believe these Hart Maidens also choose which heroes of Rashemen will become the spirit beings known as telthors. The original Rus who arrived in Rashemen referred to Khelliara by the name Freyja and named her Hart Maidens to be Disir (of course, they also referred to the outlander deity Lathander by the name Freyj).

It is also whispered that Bhalla nursed Annam, All-Father of the giant pantheon, at her teats when he was young and weak, and she was rewarded for her kindness later when he was stronger by being raped by him. Annam did announce that he would return to collect his child upon its birth. It is said that Bhalla did curse Annam for this, calling upon great powers of the fey for their protection. When the child was born, it was a misshapen and ugly female child, and Annam did appear, and in his fury he threatened to throw the child into the Pit at the bottom of the Elemental Chaos. Bhalla did call upon the Queen of Summer, Khelliara did beseech the Queen of Winter, and the child did innately call upon the Queen of the Hags. These three beings appeared to provide their blessings and protections upon the child, and they did tie the child's spirit to all the lands of Northeastern Faerun, the land of Arvandor, and the Feywild and did tie all this magic to the movement of the moon such that it is constantly changing. This prevented Annam from hurling the child into the yawning Abyss emerging from the Elemental Chaos. The frustrated Annam left, cursing all women as meddlers, but the child was kept safe. This child, it is said, is “The Hidden One”. Her true name is unknown to mortal men.

What is known of “The Hidden One” is that she appears to be a great Telthor Spirit able to draw upon the many ley lines that cross through the land of Rashemen, as well as the magic of the moon as its movement causes these magical lines to ebb and flow. She has substantial power over Glamour Magic (illusions), elemental based magics and what is known as coven magic, or cooperative spellcasting. It is whispered that she taught the Raumvirans some of their original magic, though it is known that they also sought out other great elemental powers such as Grumbar, Kossuth, and other local spirits. It is also whispered that she once fell in love with the terrestrial bound Nanna-Sin of the Untheric Pantheon just a short time before Nanna-Sin's death in the Orcgate wars, and that she became pregnant by him, but she never revealed this to the Untheric Pantheon for fear that they would mount an invasion to take the child. It is said that this child is protected as a ward of one of the Faerie Courts, and that the Vremyonni protect a gateway to this realm.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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