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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Jul 2020 : 22:54:52
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
And yet you’re here arguing about how you don’t want to see it, so how accepted are we?
Yep, and this is where you in particular always seem to twist my words. I said that I specifically have no problem seeing it... I have a problem seeing it becoming so predictably that it seems like an agenda being pushed. Which makes me feel like certain scribes around here more than others are pushing an agenda as well. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2020 : 23:10:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Dunno sleyvas, from what I saw, far from every show has now a same sex couple, especially among main or important side characters.
The same with couples with people from different ethnicities.
I also wouldn't say it occurs, if we take all modern series (dunno from the last 5-6 years?) and all characters, if the percentage of characters on the LGBT spectrum or engaging in same-sex romance would higher, or that higher than how many people on the LGBT spectrum there are (especially that research finds over 10% of people are bisexual or homosexual, with younger people being more open and willing to accept their own sexuality).
Similarly with characters from other ethnicities romancing.
Especially that within the fantasy genre itself, for a long time, this is very prevalent - if not exactly with human ethnicities/races - I mean, how many characters of different races (usually human or another race - especially elven races), romanced in Fantasy, or even Forgotten Realms? Even in the background producing various mixed races?
I don't know if you are a Warcraft fan (and also risking diverging from the Realms), but Warcraft fans joke seemingly all three Windrunner sisters fallen for humans, and it means their family must have some human fetish, or other similar jokes.
(well, with Sylvanas and Nathanos, it's a bit unclear, but even with her there are visible clues she might not just use him, or at least didn't originally. And Alleria and Vereesa did canonically fallen for, and had children with humans)
[EDIT]
I especially don't think same-sex romances are "predictable" in comparison to for male-female ones - I mean, if anything very, very often in fiction, an closer interaction and relationship of a male and female characters, even if it's originally presented as a friendship, end up becoming a romance or at least having strong romantic undertones.
There were and even jokes male-female friendship (especially a very strong one, without romantic undertones) is one of the most underrepresented relationships in fiction.
I don't have a problem with the intermixing. Its the FORMULAIC intermixing... it's the predictable nature of it. I will say I've noticed this formula start in the last say 3 years, but I'm seeing it across all kinds of platforms, but mostly anything relatively recently. Also, its the specific "we have to have this combination" that gets old.
In fantasy, racial intermixing of different kinds has been seen for a long time. Honestly, I barely pay attention to that anymore, unless I were to say see a woman marrying a centaur or something else that resembles something like bestiality (happened in Hercules the Legendary Journeys though). (and no, just because I mentioned bestiality doesn't mena I'm into it... I just shook my head and was amazed that they did it). Humans and any other race just seems normal if you can explain the draw between them. Same with various cross races (i.e. and elf who loves a dwarf, etc..). But if every show I watched suddenly had to have a blonde male falling in love with a red headed elf, I'd start to get tired of seeing the formula and being able to predict it. If there were really elves in the world, I'd also wonder "why are they showing this all the time"? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2020 : 23:18:31
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
And yet you’re here arguing about how you don’t want to see it, so how accepted are we?
Yep, and this is where you in particular always seem to twist my words. I said that I specifically have no problem seeing it... I have a problem seeing it becoming so predictably that it seems like an agenda being pushed. Which makes me feel like certain scribes around here more than others are pushing an agenda as well.
Say what “agenda” you think it is in clear terms, then. All I (and most creatives you think are “pushing” queer representation) want is for people like me to exist in the stories we enjoy, because for a long time it was unacceptable, and even today people fight tooth and nail whenever it happens, accusing those of making political moves or having it not be justified.
So please, I’d love to hear plainly what agenda you’re accusing folks of when we exist and tell stories about people like ourselves. I’m all ears. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2020 : 23:20:11
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Again though, consider this from the reverse perspective. Until recently, as I've said, if queer (not to mention people of color) wanted to see themselves represented, they had to really hunt for it, either going to a special section of the bookstore, or a special bookstore entirely. And if we were in shows or movies, it was usually as villains or comic relief (and there was the "bury your gays" trope of homosexual relationships ending tragically, as if gays couldn't have a happy ever after). There were always exceptions to all this, of course, but they were far less common, even in just the last decade.
As I said, queers enjoy fantasy, as well. And we have seen the same predictable formula of boy-meets-girl throughout all aspects of media for most of our lives (I grew up on Disney). You don't have to hunt for straight stories. They're default. We've seen the same, predictable formula of heterosexual romance played throughout our lives. If the recent surge in queer characters seems like an agenda, it's because producers and writers are finally realizing we can be part of a story, too, and have the same feelings and emotions as everyone else. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 26 Jul 2020 23:26:48 |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2020 : 23:26:37
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Again though, consider this from the reverse perspective. Until recently, as I've said, if queer (not to mention people of color) wanted to see themselves represented, they had to really hunt for it, either going to a special section of the bookstore, or a special bookstore entirely. And if we were in shows or movies, it was usually as villains or comic relief (and there was the "bury your gays" trope of homosexual relationships ending tragically, as if gays couldn't have a happy ever after). There were always exceptions to all this, of course, but they were far less common, even in just the last decade.
As I said, queers enjoy fantasy, as well. And we have seen the same predictable formula of boy-meets-girl throughout all aspects of media for most of our lives (I grew up on Disney). You don't have to hunt for straight stories. They're default. If the recent surge in queer characters seems like an agenda, it's because producers and writers are finally realizing we can be part of a story, too, and have the same feelings and emotions as everyone else. We've seen the same, predictable formula of heterosexual romance played out all our lives.
Just as a fun data point, I recently had to hunt down a listicle of sci-fi and fantasy novels where lesbian romances don’t end in tragedy, and had to fight with the author for listing a book where one of the main couple died horribly in the end. You want to talk predictable, start there. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2020 : 23:39:46
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| Heck, if we wanted to go into agendas here, one could argue that many societies have been pushing the "straight agenda" with various amounts of vigor for centuries (some societies more than others). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 27 Jul 2020 01:26:39 |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2020 : 08:30:51
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
And something to consider about me, I have a problem with unintentionally saying something or doing something inappropriate at times so please don't take anything I say too seriously ...
You’ve been arguing against the existence of people pike me in fiction for two pages now. I’m not sure that be be chalked up to a funny habit. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2020 : 08:42:32
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
Wasn't Richard the Lionhearted Gay/Bi or something......( Better man than Richard the III.....)
agenda or if you prefer Political Correct Agenda....( which pisses alot of people off)
I do not have issues with characters either PC characters or Novel ones existing or simple scenes of affection.I have issues with DM/GM forcing player characters into romance scenes when the player would rather not do so.
This is basic consent, and none of us have suggested otherwise.
quote:
I have issues with authors being forced to write them and it is not against the author or anyone else in anyway.
I would love any examples of this, especially in D&D.
quote:
When it's forced imo, it makes said characters seem shallow and throw away characters and being easily killed off. Write them right, do it right or not at all.
What does “right” mean here, and why does a cis/straight reader get to decide that?
quote:
if I could write worth a damn, I'd want to make you fall in love with my characters and then get pissed with me for killing them all off by the end with the lone survivor either committing suicide or murdered.... This goes for straight characters too
You can toss in that last line all you want, but you’re still the one who decided to talk about how much you’d relish writing queer suffering and death unprompted. Where’s that enthusiasm for stories of queer people not facing misery and death?
The reason why I am on edge with your comments, sfdragon, is because you seem to be frantically throwing arguments against the wall to justify why you’re skeptical of any queer character existing - they can’t be too unimportant, they can’t be too important, they have to not be “forced” (who decides that, anyway?) - and the only story you’ve mentioned wanting to tell around people like me is our pain and suicide. Can you see why I’d feel skeptical that you’re acting in good faith here?
EDIT: No one has ever made a cis or straight character justify themselves to this degree. That’s the whole argument I’m making here. We’ve only really been talking about orientation; I’m certain you’d pitch a fit if a character just so happened to be trans, or if their entire narrative was about being trans, because queer characters need to be in some nonexistent Goldilocks zone of “acceptably queer” for people like many of the posters in this thread, and it’s exhausting. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
Edited by - keftiu on 27 Jul 2020 08:56:04 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2020 : 11:30:13
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
DRagon Prince... never heard of it. Is it any good?
I
It's awesome. It's a cartoon on Netflix. I won't say its the greatest thing in the world, BUT it did remind me of the Avatar: the Last Airbender and Legend of Korra series for a GENERAL comparison. Its much more fey/fantasy oriented than Asian. It is a little "kiddie", but then so were the other two I just mentioned. I won't say though that it was as good as Avatar... I don't want to build up the hype too much. However, its had 3 seasons so far, and I thoroughly enjoyed them. If you like the general look of tieflings with their horns, the elves in this series have similar horns (it was an interesting difference to me, though I'm not sure why, and it did remind me of tieflings). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2020 : 11:36:05
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
And yet you’re here arguing about how you don’t want to see it, so how accepted are we?
Yep, and this is where you in particular always seem to twist my words. I said that I specifically have no problem seeing it... I have a problem seeing it becoming so predictably that it seems like an agenda being pushed. Which makes me feel like certain scribes around here more than others are pushing an agenda as well.
Say what “agenda” you think it is in clear terms, then. All I (and most creatives you think are “pushing” queer representation) want is for people like me to exist in the stories we enjoy, because for a long time it was unacceptable, and even today people fight tooth and nail whenever it happens, accusing those of making political moves or having it not be justified.
So please, I’d love to hear plainly what agenda you’re accusing folks of when we exist and tell stories about people like ourselves. I’m all ears.
Its the propagandizing of it. The idea that I must have this pushed down my throat because I'm not enlightened or something if I don't see it, or that somehow those that act in this manner are more "enlightened" than me and need to tell me how to live my life. Honestly, as I've said, I don't mind it. I've said my problem is the forced pushing down of the message. I'm not looking to see porn of it mind you. But when you feel like you're being preached too, after a while, it grows very old, and then resentment starts to set in. I'm not there yet, but the more I'm accused here, the more resentful I get and the more I believe that the people who want to act enlightened and tolerant are the issue. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2020 : 12:14:37
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Its the propagandizing of it. The idea that I must have this pushed down my throat because I'm not enlightened or something if I don't see it, or that somehow those that act in this manner are more "enlightened" than me and need to tell me how to live my life. Honestly, as I've said, I don't mind it. I've said my problem is the forced pushing down of the message. I'm not looking to see porn of it mind you. But when you feel like you're being preached too, after a while, it grows very old, and then resentment starts to set in. I'm not there yet, but the more I'm accused here, the more resentful I get and the more I believe that the people who want to act enlightened and tolerant are the issue.
In the simplest possible sense, writing about human society* without editing out 10% of those humans doesn't reflect an agenda. Surgically removing people from the narrative, either because they make you personally uncomfortable or because you are afraid that they might make some segment of readership uncomfortable, is, however, the definition of an agenda.
If you were to write about cultivated fields of wheat and barley, pasturages of green grass and the occasional spot of shady woodland, but never mention a single flower, it might come across as odd, especially if you describe the other plants in great detail. It's not like flowers are likely to be even as much as 10% of the biomass of intensively cultivated farmland, but still, they are going to be present and it would seem very odd not to mention any of them. The more you write about the corn fields, the grass and the forests, without mentioning a single flower, the more people will start to wonder what you have against flowers.
*While that society might be set in a fictional, fantastic world, it's still generally human society. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2020 : 13:18:12
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Its the propagandizing of it. The idea that I must have this pushed down my throat because I'm not enlightened or something if I don't see it, or that somehow those that act in this manner are more "enlightened" than me and need to tell me how to live my life. Honestly, as I've said, I don't mind it. I've said my problem is the forced pushing down of the message. I'm not looking to see porn of it mind you. But when you feel like you're being preached too, after a while, it grows very old, and then resentment starts to set in. I'm not there yet, but the more I'm accused here, the more resentful I get and the more I believe that the people who want to act enlightened and tolerant are the issue.
You mean like how straight white male heroes have been pushed down the throat of all mass media for the past 400 years, making anyone that doesn't fit that description feel like they are less than nothing? That is propagandizing an agenda. Stories that that don't focus on that and are inclusive are trying to reset the narrative to neutral ground. If you feel uncomfortable with it, there are thousands, nay, hundreds of thousands of other pieces of entertainment that you can feel "safe" watching.
YOU have a choice that you can easily find an alternative. Many don't, and this is a time when people are trying to give them that easily found alternative. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 27 Jul 2020 13:19:48 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2020 : 16:28:25
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^This. As I have said, until recently, if the queer community wanted to see themselves represented, they had to hunt for it. If they were made uncomfortable by seeing cis straight characters in every media they consumed, oh well! That's the way it was. But reverse it, to where we are seeing more representation, and suddenly it's an agenda? Saying you don't mind it, but then saying you don't want it shoved down your throat, implies that you do mind it to a degree. Because queers have had the straight cis agenda shoved down their throats for decades, but we couldn't say we didn't want it shoved down our throats. It was everywhere, and if we wanted to enjoy fantasy (or any media, really), that is what we saw.
I see this kind of argument often; people.in one breath say they don't mind it, but in the next breath complain that it is "everywhere". Media is getting more inclusive, but I wouldn't say it is "everywhere". I would say the bulk of media is stil cis and straight.
And yes, there are indeed instances where putting in a queer character feels like tokenism, and it's just a throwaway character. We don't want that either; we want natural representation. But now that we are finally getting it, to hear people complain about it, even if they say they don't mind it, sounds like the message, "keep queer characters out of mass media, and back in the special bookstores and late night television." I am not accusing anyone here of meaning it like that, as that is probably not your intent, but that is how it *sounds*. Saying you don't mind it, but then accusing us of having an agenda, makes it sound like you will allow it only if it meets certain criteria. This is how these arguments sound to us, and why we get defensive. It feels like we are shouting into a vacuum sometimes, and we're constantly having to justify our existence. If we sound preachy, it is because we are trying to be *heard*. By wanting to see more representation, we are somehow pushing an agenda, when really, we just want the right to exist, both irl and in fiction. We want to enjoy fantasy, same as everyone else, and see gay and trans characters in the stories we consume, without having the straight cis population freak out about it. And no one is trying to shame the straight cis population for being cis and straight (From past discussions I have had with people on this topic, i get the impression the cis, atraight, white population thinks we are trying to shame them, and that is not the message we are trying to send--even though we have been shamed for existing). What we are asking for is understanding and the chance to see ourselves in the media we love, without being made to feel our existence is an issue to the rest of the population (and again, gay does not equal porn. We're not saying we want steamy bedroom scenes. The same principle applies to gay romance as applies to straight. We want gay wizards. This doesn't mean we need to see or read about the gay wizard's private time with his lover in explicit detail).
Also, the Dragon Prince is indeed awesome, and in a recent interview, the writers have confirmed that Netflix has given them the green light for all 7 seasons! |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 27 Jul 2020 17:59:18 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2020 : 18:43:20
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I've enjoyed The Dragon Prince, myself, and so has my wife and 9 year old son.
One thing I will say, on topic... I'm a straight white male, so obviously I don't have the experience with marginalization and discrimination that some folks here have. But one thing I've noticed: it seems like every time someone puts the word "agenda" into any discussion of LGBT matters, that person is against changing the status quo. I can't say I've known huge numbers of openly LGBT folks, but I've worked with some and hung out with some, and I've never seen that any of them had any agenda beyond what straight folks do: just living their lives, working, and taking care of their families.
I'm straight, and as soon as I hear anything about LGBT folks having an agenda, that puts me on the defensive -- because it seems like it's inevitably a prelude to attacking them in some way. I would imagine that it's far worse for those constantly on the receiving end of such discourse.
This is a touchy subject, at best, and I think it'd be good if everyone kept that in mind, as we proceed. I REALLY don't want to have to close another thread because people can't discuss matters like this in a civil manner. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 27 Jul 2020 18:44:27 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2020 : 19:06:18
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Thank you, Wooly. You hit the nail on the head with how we feel about being told we have an "agenda", and we get defensive for the reasons you just named.
I don't want this thread to close, either. These are important discussions to have, but civility is, too. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2020 : 19:54:40
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
And yet you’re here arguing about how you don’t want to see it, so how accepted are we?
Yep, and this is where you in particular always seem to twist my words. I said that I specifically have no problem seeing it... I have a problem seeing it becoming so predictably that it seems like an agenda being pushed. Which makes me feel like certain scribes around here more than others are pushing an agenda as well.
Say what “agenda” you think it is in clear terms, then. All I (and most creatives you think are “pushing” queer representation) want is for people like me to exist in the stories we enjoy, because for a long time it was unacceptable, and even today people fight tooth and nail whenever it happens, accusing those of making political moves or having it not be justified.
So please, I’d love to hear plainly what agenda you’re accusing folks of when we exist and tell stories about people like ourselves. I’m all ears.
Its the propagandizing of it. The idea that I must have this pushed down my throat because I'm not enlightened or something if I don't see it, or that somehow those that act in this manner are more "enlightened" than me and need to tell me how to live my life. Honestly, as I've said, I don't mind it. I've said my problem is the forced pushing down of the message. I'm not looking to see porn of it mind you. But when you feel like you're being preached too, after a while, it grows very old, and then resentment starts to set in. I'm not there yet, but the more I'm accused here, the more resentful I get and the more I believe that the people who want to act enlightened and tolerant are the issue.
And again you say that any amount of us existing is being pushed down your throat, that it’s propagandizing. You admit that you’re close to resenting queer folks because we... exist in media too much? Because people like me act frustrated that we have to debate our existence?
I’m out. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2020 : 19:59:48
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You don’t have to close this thread, but the other half of this discussion being allowed to continue makes me feel unsafe as all hell here. Acting like arguing what kind of queer people can exist in what specific contexts and amounts for straight, cis comfort is a worthy debate in good faith is nonsense, and is about a half step away from arguing how acceptable us living in the real world is.
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4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2020 : 20:12:18
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Thank you, Wooly. You hit the nail on the head with how we feel about being told we have an "agenda", and we get defensive for the reasons you just named.
I don't want this thread to close, either. These are important discussions to have, but civility is, too.
To note, your discussions (what I've read of them) seem to be very open and clear. The individuals I'm noting are ones who seem to take portions of conversations and blame people. For instance, I was just told that I have an issue with "any amount of you existing"... good grief... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2020 : 20:25:30
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I was going to write something, but I'm thinking better of it.
All I am going to say is if you can't see the issues, then you do need enlightenment on them. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 27 Jul 2020 20:27:27 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2020 : 20:59:24
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Oh, and CorellonsDevout…. thank you for this. I didn't see the second paragraph, and I thought the series was ended. They did end season 3 at a decent stopping point, but I was hoping for more.
it (Dragon Prince) isn't based on a novel, but they are making a novel adaptation to the series, with more insights to characters and such (the first book came out earlier this year). I comic book that takes place between season 3 and 4 comes out in October.
EDIT And now I've read your stuff fully through on the other one.... So, they're doing 7 seasons? Awesome.
Also, the Dragon Prince is indeed awesome, and in a recent interview, the writers have confirmed that Netflix has given them the green light for all 7 seasons! |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 27 Jul 2020 21:02:17 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2020 : 21:18:40
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| There was so much more that needed to be done, so season 3 definitely wasn't the end (Runaan needs to be freed, Aaravos is obviously planning something...season 3 ended on a cliffhanger), but they were living season-to-season (nature of Netflix). But now they got the greenlight, and they have said in the past they were planning on seven seasons (and were determined to tell the story someway, even if Netflix cancelled, but it doesn't look like they have to worry about that now). No word yet on when season 4 will actually air (and I'm sure the pandemic has delayed production), but I'm excited! |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 27 Jul 2020 21:26:58 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2020 : 21:59:53
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BTW, just because people are saying they can't find the representation, and because I'm saying I see it so formulaically... here's SOME of the shows that I've recently watched and they all had the formula I was describing before. Also, I still watched the shows, and I enjoyed them, but at the same time it felt like a quota was having to be filled (the term tokenism CorellonsDevout mentioned before is one I'm not used to seeing, but yes, that). Of the below, I'd say maybe half was done in a … guess the best word is "responsible" or "felt like it mattered" way, but the other half just felt like it was just being done because they were told to do it or something. To note, this isn't every show I've noted it with. Its just the ones that I can quickly recall it with, and its more the fact of numbers (i.e. you may have one regular couple and then they "have" to have another couple to be "right"). Its because of this that when I see people saying that the representation isn't out there, I don't get it. I see it in probably every other show I watch, and yet in real life, I only know a few gay couples in comparison to straight.
The Order on Netflix
Sabrina on Netflix
Utopia Falls on Hulu (ummm, unless you're really into music, don't watch this..... I was really bored... kinda ashamed that I did the plot was so basic... to note, I'm not a music person)
Sex Education on Netflix (to note, I felt on this show that it explored things well, and it wasn't tokenism)
shadowhunters (My fiancé watched this one, I occasionally sat in, so I can't speak much to it, other than noting it seemed to follow the need for a formula... maybe it was well done, don't know)
Star Trek Discovery
Outlander
The Walking Dead
The Magicians
The Rookie
The Orville
NOS4A2
Westworld
Penny Dreadful: City of Angels
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2020 : 22:38:19
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It's great to hear Dragon Prince not only get's the 4th season but 7 seasons (if the 4 seasons now in production, will be Netflix seasons, ie 9 episodes each).
With the series, from what I know, it's often a few or two characters, which seeing the totality of the cast, is not so overwhelming.
With people on the LGBT spectrum, as I mentioned, it is general though found they make up over 10% of the society.
In Poland (a rather socially conservative country, with very little rights for people on the LGBT spectrum - which I can tel as I live here...), while in a real life survey, in 2008 in a paper-based surveys, 6% of respondents self-reported same-sex attraction, compared to 12% of online respondents. With the two sets respondents being similar in age, education, and geographical location. The difference seems due to the surveyed people finding the survey more anonymous:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1158136008726690?via%3Dihub
In a national survey organized by GLAAD (Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation) and Harris Poll in 2016, 12% of the US adult population is identified as either a sexual minority (i.e., gay, lesbian, bisexual, asexual or pansexual) or identified as something other than cisgender. This proportion was highest among Millennials (20%) and decreased with age, reaching 5% among those who were aged 72 or more).:
https://www.glaad.org/publications/accelerating-acceptance-2017
In nationally representative survey organized by Kantar TNS, 87% of American men aged 18 to 30 years identified as heterosexual, 7% as homosexual, 4% as bisexual, and 1% as other.
The survey also interviewed young men from UK and Mexico - with Men i UK identifying in 7% of men identifying as homosexual, 5% as bisexual, and 2% as other non-cis and/or non-heterosexual; in Mexico 6% identified a Homosexual, 5% identified as bisexual, and 2% as other other non-cis and/or non-heterosexual.
https://promundoglobal.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/TheManBox-Full-EN-Final-29.03.2017-POSTPRINT.v3-web.pdf
In general young people are more open and accepting of their sexuality, and a lot of this content/series is towards them. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2020 : 22:54:18
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As far as irl exposure—if you will—of the LGBTQ+ community is going to depend in part on where you live and the circles you are in. A good portion of my friend group are somewhere on the queer spectrum (not all, but a good amount), so I am exposed to it often. I also read a lot of books with LGBTQ+ representation (I make a point of looking for it), and many of my OCs are gay, so my world is basically one big rainbow lol. But, depending on where you live, it’s not always safe to be “out”, so you may not see openly gay people walking down the street (ie, a gay couple is less likely to hold hands in public). And, if you don’t personally know many queers, the numbers are going to seem smaller (vs if you were to gather a bunch of them in a room, you would see how many there are).
To use tokenism again, queers don’t want to be that throwaway character anymore than heterosexuals want to see it. We want genuine, natural representation. And that is part of why we are having this discussion about queer representation in the Realms. We want to be treated like we matter (both as fans, and as seeing ourselves represented in the game material—and novels, if we were still getting them), rather than feeling like that “token gay friend the MC has, but doesn’t actually do anything other than provide comedic relief”.
I mentioned that I look for books with LGBTQ+ representation in the books I read (either as the MC, or supporting characters). This is not to say I don't also read books that don't have such representation—I’ve read a number of good books that are heteronormative. But note the “normative” in that word. Cis, straight is still considered the “default”. Queer has not been normalized yet—if it had, this scroll probably wouldn’t be so contentious. Queer representation is still by and large met with hostility in some form or another. This no longer stops creatives from doing it, but there is always backlash. As I mentioned earlier, the reaction to the Ethari x Runaan kiss, and that of the queens, in the TDP fandom was horrible. Anything from blatant homophobia to the aforementioned, “but the children” arguments.
And again, with regards to having queer characters in media has reached some sort of formula, there has been the straight, cis (and largely white) formula in media for decades. More creatives, either authors, designers, producers, etc, are realizing that they can—and should—include more diversity than the heteronormative formula that has hitherto dominated mass media. Yes, some of these are doing it for the “hey, look at us”, which is the tokenism I mentioned, but media can influence society, so the more people are exposed to it, then hopefully more people will realize we enjoy the same things as anyone else.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 27 Jul 2020 23:02:32 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2020 : 23:52:41
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
As far as irl exposure—if you will—of the LGBTQ+ community is going to depend in part on where you live and the circles you are in. A good portion of my friend group are somewhere on the queer spectrum (not all, but a good amount), so I am exposed to it often. I also read a lot of books with LGBTQ+ representation (I make a point of looking for it), and many of my OCs are gay, so my world is basically one big rainbow lol. But, depending on where you live, it’s not always safe to be “out”, so you may not see openly gay people walking down the street (ie, a gay couple is less likely to hold hands in public). And, if you don’t personally know many queers, the numbers are going to seem smaller (vs if you were to gather a bunch of them in a room, you would see how many there are).
To use tokenism again, queers don’t want to be that throwaway character anymore than heterosexuals want to see it. We want genuine, natural representation. And that is part of why we are having this discussion about queer representation in the Realms. We want to be treated like we matter (both as fans, and as seeing ourselves represented in the game material—and novels, if we were still getting them), rather than feeling like that “token gay friend the MC has, but doesn’t actually do anything other than provide comedic relief”.
I mentioned that I look for books with LGBTQ+ representation in the books I read (either as the MC, or supporting characters). This is not to say I don't also read books that don't have such representation—I’ve read a number of good books that are heteronormative. But note the “normative” in that word. Cis, straight is still considered the “default”. Queer has not been normalized yet—if it had, this scroll probably wouldn’t be so contentious. Queer representation is still by and large met with hostility in some form or another. This no longer stops creatives from doing it, but there is always backlash. As I mentioned earlier, the reaction to the Ethari x Runaan kiss, and that of the queens, in the TDP fandom was horrible. Anything from blatant homophobia to the aforementioned, “but the children” arguments.
And again, with regards to having queer characters in media has reached some sort of formula, there has been the straight, cis (and largely white) formula in media for decades. More creatives, either authors, designers, producers, etc, are realizing that they can—and should—include more diversity than the heteronormative formula that has hitherto dominated mass media. Yes, some of these are doing it for the “hey, look at us”, which is the tokenism I mentioned, but media can influence society, so the more people are exposed to it, then hopefully more people will realize we enjoy the same things as anyone else.
heteronormative?? Also, I will say that the note about the words queer and gay not being defined well is well heard here, because I can't tell you the difference.
It is heartening to see that you guys are tired of the tokenism thing, because THAT is what's becoming the problem. You may see it as a possible hope that people with see it and become more accepting just because its another instance. However, when they overdo it, when it starts to become a trend that people start picking up on, when it starts feeling like someone preaching to them.... it doesn't matter WHAT the message is.... it could be something about money, medical issues, races, nationalism, sexism, or whatever... it starts to annoy. That's when the message starts backfiring. Most people don't like to be told how to act (even if its not overt).
Unfortunately I see the same thing when companies start these "we want to be be on the right side of this year's media message" statements and start preaching some mantra. They have to be careful or their employees will actually feel pushed in the opposite direction just because of the constant reminders.
Also, just because I see so many people throwing out that there's so many more instances of straight and how they have had to deal with that. To look at it from my perspective, most people were birthed from that type of union, and the vast majority of what people see in real life society is that type of union. So, it shouldn't be odd to see that represented in media (now, I can get that the storylines can get tired, which is why a lot of males get fed up with unrealistic Romantic Comedies). But again, in the media we're being presented often a 1/3rd to 2/3rd, or sometimes 50/50 representation of non-straight to straight relationships in most of the newer material like I was saying. That's why its feeling like a deluge or preaching, because most people can do the basic math and go "its not that common", because art isn't reflecting life. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 28 Jul 2020 00:14:07 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2020 : 00:13:19
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Dunno if it's that overt sleyvas - especially not "1/3rd to 2/3rd, or sometimes 50/50" especially if we count all works of fiction, and put all characters together. If anything though, the burden of proof is here on you.
And I doubt anyone is forcing employees to introduce it. All people saw or read giving details while working or writing about introducing characters on the LGBT spectrum, ranged from visibly positive to outright enthusiastic about it.
With it having an opposite effect - ie making people less tolerant - I would also question that - people don't commit robbery, murder or other crimes, even though media, schools, society fiction all the time tells they are bad.
And I mean if anything, to compare more presence of non-white characters, even token or side characters (and for half a century or more now), didn't make Caucasian people more racist towards other ethnicities, if anything the opposite can be argued.
Research actually shown intolerance and violence towards people on the LGBT is connected to spreading misinformation and negative propaganda about people on the LGBT spectrum. As well as people holding to their misconceptions about them, and seeing people on the LGBT spectrum as something "alien", "the other" etc. |
Edited by - Baltas on 28 Jul 2020 00:25:24 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2020 : 00:50:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Dunno if it's that overt sleyvas - especially not "1/3rd to 2/3rd, or sometimes 50/50" especially if we count all works of fiction, and put all characters together. If anything though, the burden of proof is here on you.
Meant again, on the things I'm watching. Basically, a lot of times there may only be 3 relationships on the show, or 2 on the shows, etc... On the other stuff, I'm not saying people running around and committing crimes. I'm saying people getting tired of the message building up. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2020 : 00:51:34
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Further about people being told that's something is wrong, in this context being a homophobe, transpobe etc...
People when being employed agree, and reminded and take even courses to know and follow certain rules, especially safety rules.
I wouldn't say people who break them, are motivated to do so, by "being told what to do", even if the rules are subjective how needed they are.
If anything, people breaking those rules, do it from other reasons - due to their personality, or due to being influenced or even persuaded to do so.
And it was accepted for along, long time people breaking such rules, deserve some form of being reprimanded, punished or even fired from their position, depending on their actions.
In turn, from what I saw, and even from research, people who in real life, behave bigoted, either reveal their true self, or fall under negative influence now much easier with internet, and if anything, latter just use (if maybe even believe) the other excuses for it.
It might a personal situation, but I think I should share it, as it gives some context and example for this.
I had a friend up to quite recently (and still didn't yet give up on him, but it get's uncomfortable), who grew more and more hateful towards people on the LGBT spectrum - starting with nonbinary and transgender people, but lately moving towards bisexuals and homosexuals/WLW and MLM, claiming the current bisexuals and homosexuals are tainted by pedophilia (among things), if due to the "cultural influence", but he also changed the story about it.
I mention this, as he indeed claimed he came to such conclusions due to popculture exposing him to much "LGBT agenda", I saw there were other sources for it, that were a much more obvious source. With him linking/sending me and posting on his social sites videos and articles, that that obviously influenced his views and perspective, as well as starting to associate with certain people with certain views online.
Again, not saying watching certain videos, outright make person a bigot, or it is universal to follow such trend.
But I watched such things happen, and it's not comfortable be the witness of such thing, to say the least.
It is rather offtopic too, as is this discussion by now, concentrating solely on real life LGBT issues and presentation in other media than Forgotten Realms or even D&D or Fantasy, and even talk about other political issues.
So maybe let's try to get back to discussing Queer Culture in the Realms, ideas for it, and such. |
Edited by - Baltas on 28 Jul 2020 01:26:32 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2020 : 01:01:56
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Meant again, on the things I'm watching. Basically, a lot of times there may only be 3 relationships on the show, or 2 on the shows, etc... On the other stuff, I'm not saying people running around and committing crimes. I'm saying people getting tired of the message building up.
Well ok, but I'm also note sure if it's fair to say it is such a wide issue (and claiming it possibly has such negative influence) if it's just from shows you watched fairly recently (ie for the last 3 years as you stated earlier).
But as I stated, let's maybe try to go back on topic, or at least let's not (or at least less) discuss real life modern issues. |
Edited by - Baltas on 28 Jul 2020 01:27:14 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2020 : 01:02:53
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
heteronormative?? Also, I will say that the note about the words queer and gay not being defined well is well heard here, because I can't tell you the difference.
Heteronormative= heterosexuality being the "default" and "normal", with anything outside of that considered abnormal. "Queer" is often used as an umbrella term for anyone under the "LGBTQ" spectrum. Some also use the term if they're in the spectrum but don't necessarily identify with any one thing. Gay is, well, gay.
quote:
It is heartening to see that you guys are tired of the tokenism thing, because THAT is what's becoming the problem. You may see it as a possible hope that people with see it and become more accepting just because its another instance. However, when they overdo it, when it starts to become a trend that people start picking up on, when it starts feeling like someone preaching to them.... it doesn't matter WHAT the message is.... it could be something about money, medical issues, races, nationalism, sexism, or whatever... it starts to annoy. That's when the message starts backfiring. Most people don't like to be told how to act (even if its not overt).
It's better than no representation at all, but token representation just makes us throw away characters, rather than real, authentic characters. When I said we're tired of tokenism, I mean we're tired of being the "inserted character". Still, I would rather the attempt be made. I just wish more people would be genuine about it. I want to see more representation (I am happy to see that list of shows. I say bring it.), and in many of the books I read, at least, the authors (at least imho) have done a good job. You listed the show Shadowhunters. I haven't watched the show, but I know it is based off a book series (which is on my to-read list), and there is a gay couple in there. I can't speak for the others, as again, I don't watch a lot of tv.
Unfortunately, I can think of a few books in the Realms that feel like tokenism: Death Masks and RAS' character Afrefere (or however you spell it). To be clear, I was happy to see Jelaster and Dunblade in the book, and I am not knocking Ed for trying (I applaud people for trying). But they felt like they were just...inserted there. Again, it's better than nothing, and most of the time, the books I have read have felt authentic. I myself haven't seen too much tokenism. Erin M. Evans did a fantastic job with Mehen, for example.
Sometimes preaching is necessary, because as I said before, it can feel like we're screaming into a vacuum sometimes. The dissenters are loud, so we have to be louder.
quote:
Also, just because I see so many people throwing out that there's so many more instances of straight and how they have had to deal with that. To look at it from my perspective, most people were birthed from that type of union, and the vast majority of what people see in real life society is that type of union. So, it shouldn't be odd to see that represented in media (now, I can get that the storylines can get tired, which is why a lot of males get fed up with unrealistic Romantic Comedies). But again, in the media we're being presented often a 1/3rd to 2/3rd, or sometimes 50/50 representation of non-straight to straight relationships in most of the newer material like I was saying. That's why its feeling like a deluge or preaching, because most people can do the basic math and go "its not that common", because art isn't reflecting life.
No one is saying it's odd to see heterosexual characters or romance in media; what we are saying is that when people complain that queer characters are suddenly everywhere, we're trying to point out that we (the queer audience) has watched these heteronormative-style stories play out over and over again, but we've had to keep our mouth shut about what we wanted to see, because there was no alternative (or at least, not readily available ones). Sure, we're a minority, but we exist in all societies. We want to see more of ourselves represented, because we have always been here, and we are a decent portion of the population. So to have a queer character(s) in most shows and books isn't really all that unrealistic (10%-15% is probably on the lower end, as not everyone has access to surveys, or takes them). We're more common than most people realize. Not all of us "look" a stereotype, after all, so not "spotting" us in a crowd doesn't mean we aren't there. Returning briefly to The Dragon Prince, many "shots" of the cityscape (like the marketplace) in Katolis include at least one (usually more) same-sex couple. I myself didn't notice all of them, as they go by quickly, but people have taken screenshots and pointed them out, and the writers themselves said it was something they tried to include.
To relate this to the Realms at Baltas' request, the Realms has long had a thriving queer culture, and the Realms doesn't suffer from the bigotry of the real world. Unfortunately, this hasn't always been apparent, due in large part towards general attitudes in the earlier years of the Realms publication. I mentioned above that Jelaster felt a bit like a token character, and that we want to see more authenticity, but again, I have to applaud Ed for trying. Trying is where we at least start, and then those attempts hopefully become more genuine, as creators get more attuned and learn what is right and what isn't. People have to try, and try to break out of what they know, because that is how we learn and grow, much like learning about cultures outside our own. So, even though ideally I want authenticity, if tokenism leads to that, I'll take it. As Baltas said, bigotry often stems from misinformation and ignorance, so the more opportunities people have to see us, learn from and about us (even if it's only in media), the more people will (hopefully) realize that we have just as much to be here and experience life, just like everyone else. Art can send a message. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 28 Jul 2020 02:17:53 |
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Queer Culture in the Realms
