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keftiu
Learned Scribe

145 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2020 :  20:43:49  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I’d assume that much like openly gay or trans characters, previous content standards meant not many made it into canon.

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1020 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2020 :  21:38:44  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ahh makes sense. I guess I don't recall characters in the novels from Calimsham having multiple spouses...but that Calimsham/Calimport setting book from 2nd edition is quite thick!
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keftiu
Learned Scribe

145 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2020 :  00:33:42  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I’d also like to caution too much against conflating a historical notion of a harem or a dominant man with many wives with the modern notion of polyamory. They’re pretty different!

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1020 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2020 :  10:53:09  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Definitely agree with you Keftiiu; I did mention it was off topic in that I don't equate the two! Just that the many wives thing was something that TSR seemed to have dropped about Turmish culture when they went back to the area later, and it never made sense to me. I do think Ed's version of Polyamory in the Realms seems more like a modern interpretation of it, rather than the harem thing, if thats any comfort.
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe

Australia
354 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2020 :  05:51:48  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If we take 'very close friends' to be a stand-in for a gay relationship in the old days, then Raella Hiess and Vhondryl of Skullport are good candidates for a lesbian couple. Described as friends, companions, and partners (in business, at least), they're "quite fond of each other" and live together at the Deepfires inn. What's more, Vhondryl is a follower of Loviatar and they let outsiders believe that Raella works for Vhondryl as a barmaid, when Raella actually owns the inn, so they could well have a consensual, non-villainous bondage relationship too.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Vhondryl
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Raella_Hiess

The following female-living-as-a-man characters (obviously more common and acceptable in the past) could be read as trans, though other readings are possible:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Talessyr_Tranth (female living as a man)
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Landswith_Meilin (goes out of her way to hide gender)
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Coril (female disguised as a man while in hiding)
There are more of them in the old lore. These two seem to have been made trans due to error (there's probably more out there):
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Raulauvin_Oregh (male sex, feminine pronoun)
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Arash_bint_Sanjar (masculine pronoun, feminine patronymic, but might be a woman ruling as a man)

For polyamory, the romantic relationships between Beliot Sevenecho, innkeeper of the Worried Wyvern, and his four friendly chambermaids could be polyamorous, possibly with a bit of bondage (but defined in terms of an adventuring band rather than their employment at the inn).
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Beliot_Sevenecho

BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki
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Telprydain
Acolyte

1 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2020 :  05:39:20  Show Profile Send Telprydain a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not much to contribute here, but it is interesting looking at how attitudes have evolved over time - particularly in terms of what can be formally integrated into the published setting.
For example, in the 5e Dragon Heist module there are a handful of LGBTQ+ characters, including a married gay couple (a fire genasi named Embric and a water genasi named Avi) and a non-binary druid (Fala Lefaliir is an outgoing wood elf, and the module states that "like elven god Corellon Larethian, Fala is neither male nor female", and specifically states that, "if referred to as “he” or “she,” Fala gently requests to be addressed by name or as “they.”")

Obviously there's still a long way to go, but that representation is starting to be seen in an explicit form.


Edited by - Telprydain on 20 Feb 2020 05:39:51
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cpthero2
Senior Scribe

USA
804 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2020 :  19:19:16  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Rupert,

I can certainly appreciate that the debate must have become quite robust over such topics when they occurred over inclusion of material into accessories, novels, etc.

Are there topics of discussion that are forbidden on this site so I can know what to steer clear of? After having read the Code of Conduct, it seemed that practically anything was fair game, but I didn't want to assume.

It seems with your decree that debate regarding being "straight and cis, they can be LGBTQ" is not ok, but perhaps other formats of discussing such topics are acceptable?

Best regards,



quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

It's not really been addressed that much, save for a passing reference here and there.

TSR was scared of running afoul of the many self-proclaimed moral watchdogs of the age, and went out of their way to avoid anything other than straight, cis characters (actually, TSR barely even touched on anything related to sex).

When WotC came along, there was less concern over the potential blowback on such topics, but they still more or less didn't really go into it. It's only been in the last few years that they've become more inclusive; there was I believe I 5E book where they finally, point blank said "hey, your character doesn't have to be straight and cis, they can be LGBTQ." Oddly, there was a lot of debate over that one (debate that we WILL NOT be having again!).

Ed has more than once addressed the topic; what he has said is that for the most part, as long as everyone involved is of age and consenting, no one really cares.


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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cpthero2
Senior Scribe

USA
804 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2020 :  20:34:15  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe Seravin,

You make an interesting point about the dropping of "many wives" from Turmish culture. TSR/WotC have cleansed, or seemingly chosen to avoid, material of questionable interpretations at different times in their existence. In one way, it makes sense as they are looking at the bottom line and if people are not purchasing their materials because it is offensive, then they won't.

On the other hand, they've produced materials like the Book of Vile Darkness, but then don't develop Loviatar, Shar, Sharress, Garagos, etc. in the way and with the material that you know would be needed. When a subject gets hot due to what is an ethics/values argument in the end, they appear to just try to scrub it all away with their products so as to avoid scandal. Upon scrutiny, it just sort of makes it awkward as hell! I mean, ethics, values, principles, etc., are a difficult subject matter. It is constantly front and center in the Realms, but you never really see take it on directly as there is too much risk likely with having a choice being seen as for one side and against another.

Here is an example:

quote:
Men are forbidden to marry before the age of 20 and cannot live with their wives until age 30. Akanax scorns the arts of Cimbar but admires its fighting spirit. The city is organized like a military camp. Women exist to serve the men, who eat at a common mess and train together constantly."(FR10 Old Empires, pg54)


That was for the city of Akanax in that 1990 accessory. Here is a listing of the same city, in the 3rd FRCS:

quote:
Akanax (Large City, 24,632): This town functions like a military camp. Male citizens are conscripted into the army or slain for desertion. Strangers are only barely tolerated here and viewed with suspicion. No mercenary companies are allowed within its borders. Akanax has been warring with Luthcheq for several years, and has allied with Cimbar against Soorenar. King Hippartes (LN male
human Ftr19) is a tyrant but considered the finest soldier in the nation. Akanax's city population figure doesn't include the army camped outside the city, some fifty thousand soldiers.(Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting 3rd Edition, p.184)


In the 2010, Dungeon #178, pp68-77, there is only a passing mention of Akanaxian warriors, but not even a mention of ruins, or that even existed. It is believed that the Akanaxian's built Pandrick and then rebuilt their lives from there. What I find interesting is the quote from that article:

quote:
Pandrick: The fortress city of Pandrick (population 6,500) is the cultural antithesis of Erebos. Like the fabled Akanaxian warriors of old, citizens of Pandrick (both male and female) are bonded into
military service at a young age and trained in martial combat. King Zeareus of Pandrick entered into an
uneasy truce with Luthcheq several years ago, but with the Karanok’s attentions focused on Threskel,
some predict that Pandrick will soon break the agreement and march on the Chessentan capital


Obviously Akanax had something happen to it that leveled it. Something also changed their society such that no longer was the sexist discrimination against women in existence. Akanax was obviously very tyrannical under King Hippartes, as seen in FR10.

I wonder why now men and women appear to be on par with one another, socially, but when Akanax existed it was quite the opposite?

Additionally, if you look at the city of Cimbar in FR10, on p.54, you can see that only land owning males are allowed to vote...

quote:
He rules with absolute authority, though a senate elected from the land-holding males of Cimbar meets frequently to make proposals; the king usually at least listens to their advice.(FR10 Old Empires, p.54)


The reality appears to be that they've removed the sexist elements from that area. Now, on one hand, that's great. Most people these days hate discrimination. However, culturally, what did Chessenta go through with their rather, old fashioned past, to change so drastically? I didn't hear of a Susan B. Anthony like person rolling in with social reform.

It would be interesting to hear about how these and other related things come about! :)

Best regards,








quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

Definitely agree with you Keftiiu; I did mention it was off topic in that I don't equate the two! Just that the many wives thing was something that TSR seemed to have dropped about Turmish culture when they went back to the area later, and it never made sense to me. I do think Ed's version of Polyamory in the Realms seems more like a modern interpretation of it, rather than the harem thing, if thats any comfort.


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
32875 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2020 :  21:27:32  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Rupert,

I can certainly appreciate that the debate must have become quite robust over such topics when they occurred over inclusion of material into accessories, novels, etc.

Are there topics of discussion that are forbidden on this site so I can know what to steer clear of? After having read the Code of Conduct, it seemed that practically anything was fair game, but I didn't want to assume.

It seems with your decree that debate regarding being "straight and cis, they can be LGBTQ" is not ok, but perhaps other formats of discussing such topics are acceptable?



The debate was people complaining about the inclusion of non-cis and non-binary types in the game. People were throwing out all sorts of bigoted BS, calling it pandering and such nonsense.

That's what we're not debating -- whether or not we should welcome LGBT players into the game and allow LGBT characters.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
32875 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2020 :  21:28:06  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Rupert,

I can certainly appreciate that the debate must have become quite robust over such topics when they occurred over inclusion of material into accessories, novels, etc.

Are there topics of discussion that are forbidden on this site so I can know what to steer clear of? After having read the Code of Conduct, it seemed that practically anything was fair game, but I didn't want to assume.

It seems with your decree that debate regarding being "straight and cis, they can be LGBTQ" is not ok, but perhaps other formats of discussing such topics are acceptable?



The debate was people complaining about the inclusion of non-cis and non-binary types in the game. People were throwing out all sorts of bigoted BS, calling it pandering and such nonsense.

That's what we're not debating -- whether or not we should welcome LGBT players into the game and allow LGBT characters.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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cpthero2
Senior Scribe

USA
804 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2020 :  23:58:47  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Rupert,

Ahhh...well, that makes a great degree of sense then! Yeah, bigoted nonsense is certainly not ok. Glad you got a handle on that and put it down as it should have been!

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Rupert,

I can certainly appreciate that the debate must have become quite robust over such topics when they occurred over inclusion of material into accessories, novels, etc.

Are there topics of discussion that are forbidden on this site so I can know what to steer clear of? After having read the Code of Conduct, it seemed that practically anything was fair game, but I didn't want to assume.

It seems with your decree that debate regarding being "straight and cis, they can be LGBTQ" is not ok, but perhaps other formats of discussing such topics are acceptable?



The debate was people complaining about the inclusion of non-cis and non-binary types in the game. People were throwing out all sorts of bigoted BS, calling it pandering and such nonsense.

That's what we're not debating -- whether or not we should welcome LGBT players into the game and allow LGBT characters.


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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