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keftiu
Learned Scribe

143 Posts

Posted - 17 Jan 2020 :  23:34:25  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also for the skeptical, here's a thread from last year of Ed saying that there's a fairly wide practice across the Realms of using magic to transition and/or experiment with a different gender or presentation, with no stigma outside out a few deeply gendered societies (Rashemen and the drow are mentioned): https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1091759929378197504?s=20

An especially relevant quote: "Everyone" has seen or at least heard of someone doing this, and it's not considered crazy so much as "restless." [...]there's no stigma about changing your gender, nor would most folk in the Realms be repelled by discovering someone they have the hots for as one gender was once another."

So there's that.

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3141 Posts

Posted - 17 Jan 2020 :  23:45:50  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good find; thanks for sharing.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
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keftiu
Learned Scribe

143 Posts

Posted - 17 Jan 2020 :  23:53:44  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That thread also reinforces his longterm stance that the default orientation of the Realms is largely bisexuality/pansexuality, and I also appreciate that he shouts out polyamory (though not by name, which I just chalk up to a generational difference) as not an odd thing at all. The latter is a nice touch; while I'm not poly myself, a great deal of my friends are, and representation for that is almost entirely negative.

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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keftiu
Learned Scribe

143 Posts

Posted - 24 Jan 2020 :  10:02:07  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Does the phrasing of “goodfaer” as a gender-neutral term of address predate the 4e book? I know a few people who would enjoy fae/faer pronouns existing in the setting.

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
660 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2020 :  22:17:10  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
With using Masks as part of expressing transgender and/or non-binary or gender identity, I think the church of Mask fit's better than Wychlaran and Durthan - as Mask himself is noted as a genderfuild being, constantly shifting between forms, both female and male. From Faiths and Avatars (and repeated in Faiths and Pantheons):
quote:
Although Mask usually appears in one of his temples in avatar form as a sardonic, slightly built human male clad in soft gray leather armor, wearing a black mask tinged with red and a black cloak (and some sages believe this is his true or chosen form), he may also appear as a soft-spoken human female with glowing pale skin, white starry lights for eyes, and floor-length, dark hair
who walks barefoot and is always shrouded in shadowlike gloom. In public,
Mask’s form is ever-changing: human, halfling, or dwarf; male or female; and
of all ages, builds, and strengths.


This is very visible in the novel Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad, were Mask shifts so constantly through forms both male and female. And while all Gods in the Realms (and D&D) are malleable in terms of their gender to at least a degree, I think Mask is one example were it's especially visible.

So I think Mask's worshipers and clergy would quite fit to your idea here, with I think transgender and nonbinary gender identity would be especially supported and celebrated, with Masks being part of symbolic choice of ones gender identity, including a fluid gender identity.

Edited by - Baltas on 30 Jan 2020 23:54:39
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1023 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2020 :  06:42:26  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I doubt Mask gives a hoot about gender or gender identity, given that he's explicitly about spinning plots and robbing people blind. Notably, it's especially fitting for the god of theft and intrigue to be able to shapeshift.

The Maskarrans wouldn't care much either. "I identify as X" is going to get you laughed out of the building if it has nothing to do with furthering the aims of the church or their god. Most Realmsian churches probably don't really care either, no more than they would about homosexuals or heterosexuals.
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keftiu
Learned Scribe

143 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2020 :  06:55:41  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

The Maskarrans wouldn't care much either. "I identify as X" is going to get you laughed out of the building if it has nothing to do with furthering the aims of the church or their god. Most Realmsian churches probably don't really care either, no more than they would about homosexuals or heterosexuals.



I’m not sure such a broad brush is useful here. Faith and belief can be a vital part of someone’s coming out, transition, or otherwise having a queer identity, and a universal “who cares!” is pointless whitewashing, especially given the thoughtful ideas around, say, Eilestree upthread.

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
660 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2020 :  12:16:09  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

I doubt Mask gives a hoot about gender or gender identity, given that he's explicitly about spinning plots and robbing people blind. Notably, it's especially fitting for the god of theft and intrigue to be able to shapeshift.

The Maskarrans wouldn't care much either. "I identify as X" is going to get you laughed out of the building if it has nothing to do with furthering the aims of the church or their god. Most Realmsian churches probably don't really care either, no more than they would about homosexuals or heterosexuals.



Dunno, as keftiu stated, I think it's a gross simplification. People in reall world religions/cults celebrated people with certain behavioral or physical traits (ie eye color, birth marks, hair color, even deformities) as a manifestation of their god/gods favor, so I think a Genderfluid person, could be seen as closer to Mask's ever shifting nature/form.

I also proposed how the Maskarrans are better to deal with transgender and nonbinary gender identity, especially as keftiu wearing a Mask, can be seen as chosing ones identity, or with transgender people, that they were born with a Mask hiding their true self. Again this doesn't even have to be monolithic in Mask's faith.
On a practical side, people with nonbinary gender identity, or especially genderfuild people, would be also good at impersonating people of either gender - as they less or at all probable to feel discomfort as changing their physical sex, as with impersonation, such thing can betray the impersonator.

Even starting from a practical side, combined with stories of Mask and him manifesting in many genders, could lead to it being tied to Maskarran beliefs.
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1023 Posts

Posted - 01 Feb 2020 :  00:17:58  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

The Maskarrans wouldn't care much either. "I identify as X" is going to get you laughed out of the building if it has nothing to do with furthering the aims of the church or their god. Most Realmsian churches probably don't really care either, no more than they would about homosexuals or heterosexuals.



I’m not sure such a broad brush is useful here. Faith and belief can be a vital part of someone’s coming out, transition, or otherwise having a queer identity, and a universal “who cares!” is pointless whitewashing, especially given the thoughtful ideas around, say, Eilestree upthread.




That would depend on their god. It's fair to say that while the church of Eilistraee or Sune might celebrate such a thing, the churches of Mask or Mystra wouldn't really care either way, unless Mask or Mystra are really, really invested in the sexuality of their servants.

Likewise, the Tyrrans aren't likely to go up in arms over sexuality unless there's an unfair law or discrimination going around, in which case it swings either way.

Personal discrimination is different from organizational discrimination, and that's before deific influence comes in. Yondalla would probably frown on non-traditional families, as it conflicts with her portfolio.
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BrennonGoldeye
Seeker

73 Posts

Posted - 01 Feb 2020 :  00:34:56  Show Profile Send BrennonGoldeye a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

The Maskarrans wouldn't care much either. "I identify as X" is going to get you laughed out of the building if it has nothing to do with furthering the aims of the church or their god. Most Realmsian churches probably don't really care either, no more than they would about homosexuals or heterosexuals.



I’m not sure such a broad brush is useful here. Faith and belief can be a vital part of someone’s coming out, transition, or otherwise having a queer identity, and a universal “who cares!” is pointless whitewashing, especially given the thoughtful ideas around, say, Eilestree upthread.




Hmm.... See my issue with this is "coming out", at least in the sense I had to, is a totally Terran concept. If your faith doesn't care, there is nothing to "come out" of. I tend to agree with LoB about how most churches would see it. If Love, Sex or Family aren't in their portfolio, or the sex of their "clerics" isn't known to be preferred.. I don't see anything that would even bring the subject up. Of course all individuals can have their own views on the subject but in general I don't think the Deities give a flying fig.

Sam

Edited by - BrennonGoldeye on 01 Feb 2020 00:35:50
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keftiu
Learned Scribe

143 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2020 :  22:16:30  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
One thing that might be worth calling on for this thread, now that I remember it: the elven concept of living many lives across your lifespan (mentioned in the Drizzt books - no clue if it exists in wider canon) could interact in all sorts of interesting ways with queer identity. Spending a century as a given gender feels no stranger than spending one as a blacksmith or living among gnomes. Between that and the cultural familiarity with a degree of gender fluidity (between their fey nature and Corellon's own non-binary identity), I imagine quite a few elves explore a number of genders across the many years.

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3141 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2020 :  23:02:47  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

One thing that might be worth calling on for this thread, now that I remember it: the elven concept of living many lives across your lifespan (mentioned in the Drizzt books - no clue if it exists in wider canon) could interact in all sorts of interesting ways with queer identity. Spending a century as a given gender feels no stranger than spending one as a blacksmith or living among gnomes. Between that and the cultural familiarity with a degree of gender fluidity (between their fey nature and Corellon's own non-binary identity), I imagine quite a few elves explore a number of genders across the many years.



I've always pictured the more curious elven subraces (like the moon elves) as likely to explore different identities over their lifespan; gender can certainly be part of that. Though an elf wouldn't see it as living many lives; that's human perspective--in fact, if Drizzt made that comment, I would consider it very OOC, because the character filter fell off, and the author's own view emerged.

OTOH, the alternative take on elven childhood/puberty in the MToF (living past lives in dreams) could perhaps stifle this a bit. Actually, it could stifle curiosity in general for older souls, because of the "been there, done that" syndrome. And without curiosity, you have a dead people. I guess that's another reason for me to not be a fan of this take.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 09 Feb 2020 23:05:31
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Arivia
Great Reader

Canada
2946 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2020 :  23:33:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

One thing that might be worth calling on for this thread, now that I remember it: the elven concept of living many lives across your lifespan (mentioned in the Drizzt books - no clue if it exists in wider canon) could interact in all sorts of interesting ways with queer identity. Spending a century as a given gender feels no stranger than spending one as a blacksmith or living among gnomes. Between that and the cultural familiarity with a degree of gender fluidity (between their fey nature and Corellon's own non-binary identity), I imagine quite a few elves explore a number of genders across the many years.



I've always pictured the more curious elven subraces (like the moon elves) as likely to explore different identities over their lifespan; gender can certainly be part of that. Though an elf wouldn't see it as living many lives; that's human perspective--in fact, if Drizzt made that comment, I would consider it very OOC, because the character filter fell off, and the author's own view emerged.

OTOH, the alternative take on elven childhood/puberty in the MToF (living past lives in dreams) could perhaps stifle this a bit. Actually, it could stifle curiosity in general for older souls, because of the "been there, done that" syndrome. And without curiosity, you have a dead people. I guess that's another reason for me to not be a fan of this take.



I wouldn't take any of the poorly written prose from 5e books that countermands previous Realmslore as canon (or likely, anything interesting) at all. Only Volo's Guide to Monsters is worth a hoot, imo.

And even Elminster thinks of his time as Elmara as an enjoyable past lifetime, so that mode of thinking about switching gender roles makes sense and has precedence.
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keftiu
Learned Scribe

143 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2020 :  23:39:42  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The context for the Drizzt comments is (forgive me struggling to remember novels from over a decade ago) him having some angst about living among shorter-lived races, and it being a piece of advice a surface elf friend of his gives him for coping with that.

And yeah, I don't think there's much worth taking from MToF, especially in that elf section. The Blessed of Corellon thing is a clunky attempt at queer rep by cis authors and it shows, the nonsensical retcon of the drow in Eberron was annoying as hell (they're somehow tied to Lolth despite that being a world where she doesn't exist [and nor do any other gods!] and where they have a distinct origin as a magical creation of the giants), and so on. Throw it out!

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3141 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2020 :  23:42:36  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@ Arivia. I'd argue, though offtopic, that it breaks an important tenets of narrative--i.e. that the author has to disappear, and the character should be the filter through which every information is conveyed. Would any person say that they can live many lifetimes just because humans live many decades, and change A LOT over that time, while some animals live as little as one? I doubt it. Same thing for the elves.

For Elminster, I might see it happening, though. He is a human; he started as a common human, and only later his lifespan has been artificially incremented. Elves are physiologically wired to live that long, but it isn't the same for humans. Ed shows this in the subtle (or not so sublte) madness that affects El and some of the sisters due to having lived so long and experienced (and lost) so much.

Then again, it might occur as a random reflection, so it might find context in that sense, but it doesn't feel like that'd be a perpsective on life that an elf would adopt, simply because it implies that the human lifespan is the normality, and the elven one is an alteration of that.

EDIT: reading Keftiu's reply, I recognize that it can make sense as a tool for coping with loss of shorter lived companions.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 09 Feb 2020 23:53:29
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3141 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2020 :  23:50:00  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Re: Mord's elves; yeah, I think the discussion about Corellon's chosen came up earlier in this very thread. There are a lot of things that just don't work. In addition to stifling curiosity, this past lives thing would make every elf, no matter how young, hyper-experienced/skilled/knowledgeable. They would all be super-individuals, which cleaerly isn't the case in any D&D world that I know of. So we have lore that contradicts not only previous lore, but also how the world is portrayed.

Also, IIRC, they seem to imply that no new elven soul is created, which would make every elf actually, what? 30-40k+ years old? It would also mean that the number of elves at a given time can't exceed a certain number, which would be quite weird.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 09 Feb 2020 23:52:14
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Arivia
Great Reader

Canada
2946 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2020 :  01:26:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ed responded to me about how bodily gender transitioning is done in the Realms, and he confirms that it is often done at temples for the faithful: https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1226676374125056002?s=20

Yes! I have wanted this information for YEARS.
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keftiu
Learned Scribe

143 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2020 :  01:34:20  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia

Ed responded to me about how bodily gender transitioning is done in the Realms, and he confirms that it is often done at temples for the faithful: https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1226676374125056002?s=20

Yes! I have wanted this information for YEARS.



Fantastic! I asked him if any particular deities stand out for this sort of practice.

EDIT: He said ultimately your dedication to a given god matters more than anything else (so someone devoted to a particular deity would have better odds of requesting such a thing), but that Sune and Liira are among the most popular.

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.

Edited by - keftiu on 10 Feb 2020 02:01:02
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3141 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2020 :  15:34:38  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia

Ed responded to me about how bodily gender transitioning is done in the Realms, and he confirms that it is often done at temples for the faithful: https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1226676374125056002?s=20

Yes! I have wanted this information for YEARS.



Thanks for sharing!

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
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Grumpy Hamatula
Seeker

22 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2020 :  15:41:55  Show Profile Send Grumpy Hamatula a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia

Ed responded to me about how bodily gender transitioning is done in the Realms, and he confirms that it is often done at temples for the faithful: https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1226676374125056002?s=20

Yes! I have wanted this information for YEARS.



This is wonderful information. I'll be sharing it with my group today, actually, as it's a question that has come up recently.

I'd also like to point out that I'm grateful for this thread on the whole. As a genderqueer individual, I appreciate seeing matters related to LGBTQIA+ folks treated so openly and positively.

This is one of the many reasons I have loved the Realms for a long time.
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keftiu
Learned Scribe

143 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2020 :  21:29:31  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Tangential thought branching off of Ed’s replies there: I kinda love the idea of a devout champion of some god whose domains have nothing to do with selfhood, bodies, change, love, or the like getting that blessing. Nothing quite like a glorious, bloody champion of Tempus, Helm, or Bane demanding their proper body after all the fighting they’ve done.

Is there a god of athleticism in the Realms? I had a transmasc athlete/priest of Dol Dorn in my Eberron supplement, and doing something similar would be a lot of fun.

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3141 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2020 :  22:01:57  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You're looking for Lathander.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
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Arivia
Great Reader

Canada
2946 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2020 :  22:21:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

Tangential thought branching off of Ed’s replies there: I kinda love the idea of a devout champion of some god whose domains have nothing to do with selfhood, bodies, change, love, or the like getting that blessing. Nothing quite like a glorious, bloody champion of Tempus, Helm, or Bane demanding their proper body after all the fighting they’ve done.

Is there a god of athleticism in the Realms? I had a transmasc athlete/priest of Dol Dorn in my Eberron supplement, and doing something similar would be a lot of fun.



Hell yes! I love that idea!
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1018 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2020 :  10:46:00  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Slightly off topic but not totally, outside of one character I don't right off recall Polygamy being mentioned in the Realms.

Apparently Turmish culture regarding marriage is somewhat similar to pre-modern Islamic culture in that a man may have multiple wives (up to 4?) - based on Akabar Bel Akash in the Finder's Stone trilogy anyway. However the only other novel I know of set in Turmish has no characters in common with Akabar.

I know Ed's spoken of polyamorous relationships as very common place in the Realms; are there other characters or heartland areas in Faerun that practice polygamy? Was Akabar just a fluke?

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5706 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2020 :  14:27:46  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ed has mentioned a former emperor of Chondath who had multiple wives and there are numerous references to that being the normal state of affairs in Calimshan.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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