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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Jan 2020 : 18:36:15
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| Appreciate thee thoughtful reply, Erik! |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2020 : 19:14:06
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In truth, Western Patriarchy just runs deep in our culture; and even those of us who consider ourselves allies, and even have children who struggle beneath this thousands of years “institution” that exists, can’t fully comprehend the needs of those unlike ourselves well enough to do what may be needed done in a manner best suited for our loved ones.
I am in that ally group firmly as I love my bi son deeply...but can’t always say/do the thing he needs most from me because I can only relate so well to his thoughts and/or feelings. The best I can do is stand by what he says is best for him...and I feel certain that is how Ed Greenwood feels as well; though I obviously don’t know his actual thoughts. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2020 : 22:09:24
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
I really don’t love a lot of that! There’s some implications I find deeply uncomfortable, not least of which the one that a character couldn’t be gay without having sex on screen or fitting a feminine gay or butch lesbian stereotype. Neither too does kink, orgy hosting, or a Realmsian term for a slut (which I’m not sure needed to be said) have anything inherently to do with queer identity. Respect some of the man’s work, sure, but this sure does read like a very cis, very straight man fumbling some things, especially by focusing so much on the sexual.
Just means there’s more work to be done!
I just posted slabs from Ed's Candlekeep posts, and wasn't selective re topic and didn't edit as I was in a bit of a rush - my bad.
And I suppose that's the truth of a made up place. It's not going to be to everyone's taste. You are free to change the Realms to suit your own worldview. Looks like you want to. Enjoy.
-- George Krashos
Let me echo these remarks. One of the things that I see is people worried too much in making the realms a politically correct place. Quite frankly, its not. Its very accepting, but its still a place where multiple different races that hate each other, live amongst one another, kill each other, take each others things, and sometimes might even eat each other, etc....
In this environment, there will be some cultures that will push a very man/woman lifestyle, and that will purely be based on NEED in some situations. Heck, we see it amongst the dragonborn that they have a requirement that they must procreate. In some cultures (especially those that would need to individually produce each child via multiple attempts), this would mean that the luxury of being able to choose who they partner themselves with in life would be not allowed.
Then there are some cultures that will be biased based on race and/or ethnicity within a race (we see racial ethnicity being a priority in the Mulan races, but also in Dambrath as well where the Crintri ruled over pure blood humans). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2020 : 23:01:55
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Might I ask; what is gained by replicating patriarchy, misogyny, homophobia, and transphobia in the Realms? There are enough political and fantastical threats - surely not every evil of our world needs to be replicated?
When I was working on my project on trans culture in Eberron, I reached out to Keith Baker a number of times, and his response re: bigotry stuck with me - that in a world with demons, aberrant horrors, and worse, hating someone based on gender identity/expression or orientation just felt silly. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2020 : 23:51:16
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
One of the things that I see is people worried too much in making the realms a politically correct place. Quite frankly, its not. Its very accepting, but its still a place where multiple different races that hate each other, live amongst one another, kill each other, take each others things, and sometimes might even eat each other, etc....
None of this “politically correct” business. That’s a pejorative term invented by the right wing to justify bigotry and hate.
We’re not talking about “political correctness.” We’re talking about basic respect and whether people acknowledge reality of other people. It’s really that simple.
And if you’d rather LGBTQ people not be in your games, fine—don’t have them in your games. It’s your realms.
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Might I ask; what is gained by replicating patriarchy, misogyny, homophobia, and transphobia in the Realms? There are enough political and fantastical threats - surely not every evil of our world needs to be replicated?
I’ve actually given this a lot of thought, and the answer is that the realms is a lot of things to a lot of people. Some LGBT people I’ve olayed with really like facing down homophobes and defeating bigoted villains. Some of them like having backstories that involve prejudice, which they can rise above and prove their detractors wrong.
And some don’t—they’d much prefer bigotry not exist in their realms, because that’s what they deal with in real life and they want to escape from that.
So the answer is: it depends on your table and your game.
I can’t say definitively how widespread anti-LGBT bigotry is in the realms, but I can explain *how* it is perceived: silly and the province of evil people. (Just like in our world.)
quote:
When I was working on my project on trans culture in Eberron, I reached out to Keith Baker a number of times, and his response re: bigotry stuck with me - that in a world with demons, aberrant horrors, and worse, hating someone based on gender identity/expression or orientation just felt silly.
Keith is great, and he is absolutely right here. Anti-LGBT bigotry is a hallmark of evil aligned individuals, and even then, it’s weird. |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 12 Jan 2020 23:53:36 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2020 : 03:08:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
In truth, Western Patriarchy just runs deep in our culture; and even those of us who consider ourselves allies, and even have children who struggle beneath this thousands of years “institution” that exists, can’t fully comprehend the needs of those unlike ourselves well enough to do what may be needed done in a manner best suited for our loved ones.
I am in that ally group firmly as I love my bi son deeply...but can’t always say/do the thing he needs most from me because I can only relate so well to his thoughts and/or feelings. The best I can do is stand by what he says is best for him...and I feel certain that is how Ed Greenwood feels as well; though I obviously don’t know his actual thoughts.
I'll echo this. I don't have any LGBT folks in my family, but I otherwise agree: sometimes people lack the experience and awareness that people with other experiences have. It's not just for sexuality; we're most familiar with what we ourselves have experienced, and sometimes have a blind spot to anything else.
Once upon a time, I was a homophobe. It was basic ignorance on my part; when I was a kid, homophobia was thriving and accepted. I grew out of it, but I was still ignorant of how LGBT people were sometimes treated. One day I was speaking with a coworker, and he told me of a time his husband was in ICU and he (the coworker) couldn't visit him because it was "family only." The legalization of gay marriage in the US was still many years away when we had this conversation, so the hospital had ignored their marriage and kept him out.
That moment was when I started trying to be an ally. I stumble, though, because I'm not LGBT and have blind spots because of it.
I just hope that when I do stumble in one of my blind spots -- no matter the topic -- that someone takes me aside and enlightens me on it, rather than taking offense. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2020 : 04:29:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
George, when was that excerpt from Ed you shared originally posted? Is it recent or from years ago?
Can't say exactly, I didn't keep note. I do nowadays for Ed's musings, but didn't back in the day.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2020 : 08:08:00
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Might I ask; what is gained by replicating patriarchy, misogyny, homophobia, and transphobia in the Realms? There are enough political and fantastical threats - surely not every evil of our world needs to be replicated?
Not that I disagree with you - but isn't that one of the things the Witcher series (the books I'm speaking of here) tries to convey - that despite the existence of ACTUAL monsters in their world, the humans with their prejudices and unwarranted hatreds of differences are the real threats to the world. |
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AJA
Senior Scribe
USA
747 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2020 : 01:08:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
George, when was that excerpt from Ed you shared originally posted? Is it recent or from years ago?
Erik, most of it comes from Ed's 2004 "Ask Ed" thread) (scroll down to 10 Sep, posted by The Hooded One):
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1901&whichpage=53
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AJA
YAFRP
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2020 : 01:28:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Might I ask; what is gained by replicating patriarchy, misogyny, homophobia, and transphobia in the Realms? There are enough political and fantastical threats - surely not every evil of our world needs to be replicated?
Not that I disagree with you - but isn't that one of the things the Witcher series (the books I'm speaking of here) tries to convey - that despite the existence of ACTUAL monsters in their world, the humans with their prejudices and unwarranted hatreds of differences are the real threats to the world.
In one of the books, it is revealed that the Elves were just as bad to the native humans of their world.
Nobody is an angel. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2020 : 10:14:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
One of the things that I see is people worried too much in making the realms a politically correct place. Quite frankly, its not. Its very accepting, but its still a place where multiple different races that hate each other, live amongst one another, kill each other, take each others things, and sometimes might even eat each other, etc....
None of this “politically correct” business. That’s a pejorative term invented by the right wing to justify bigotry and hate.
We’re not talking about “political correctness.” We’re talking about basic respect and whether people acknowledge reality of other people. It’s really that simple.
And if you’d rather LGBTQ people not be in your games, fine—don’t have them in your games. It’s your realms.
Not looking to start a fight, but I also do not like to be told that I'm using hate speech (to be clear, much of what you said is exactly what I agree with). Politically correct is a thing, and its a tool being used to quash people's ability to espouse ideals contradictory to other people's ideas (in all directions). Words themselves aren't evil, and some people have taken to you using them as being wrong, which is the core of political correctness. If you don't agree with someone's premise in this worldview, then you must be "anti" them, which isn't always the case, and I'm finding its certain members of our community that get adamant about policing how we talk.
I simply stated that the realms is a dark place, and a lot of folk don't have the luxury of dwelling on some things that people here might be able to reflect on... quite simply because they've got to worry about getting killed, robbed, or eaten by their neighbors who don't even look like them and may have an entirely alien mindset.
I'll also agree that some people use the realms as an escapist opportunity, and having sections of the realms being that way allows for that. But, the worry would be that they take it too far when I hear words that say things like why would you allow any of XYZ in the world. There should be racists in Faerun (and racist can have different connotations in a world with actual separate races) in my viewpoint, because there ARE racists. Whether that's Thay or the Eldreth Veluuthra (sp?) or drow or mind flayers or the people of Unther or those people in Mulmaster that just think that the people of Mulmaster are the best. Having such and roleplaying through such CAN be used as a healing tool or a means by which to better understand one another. It can also be used to view this world and its views through another lens that might fracture some long held stereotypes by some folk. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2020 : 10:27:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Might I ask; what is gained by replicating patriarchy, misogyny, homophobia, and transphobia in the Realms? There are enough political and fantastical threats - surely not every evil of our world needs to be replicated?
Not that I disagree with you - but isn't that one of the things the Witcher series (the books I'm speaking of here) tries to convey - that despite the existence of ACTUAL monsters in their world, the humans with their prejudices and unwarranted hatreds of differences are the real threats to the world.
Kind of different, but the same can be said for "the walking dead" tv series. Given a "worldview" one can see that the best thing would be to just band together and kill all the zombies, but the problem became that they fractured and couldn't all agree. Too much infighting about who should lead, how things should be done, who needs what resources more than someone else, etc... But that's human nature, and the nature of every being. They seek to protect what they need.
As an aside... the witcher is a book series? I never played the games, but I've been watching the Netflix series and I'm liking it. Is it really good? Who is the author? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2020 : 13:36:07
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One of the best things I can see to do with this thread is to propose... how do you use it? By that, I mean to what end do you wish to go by being obvious about someone's sexual preference or need to be of a certain sex? Would it be more acceptable for a human man to impregnate a an orc to produce a half-orc child (or a farmer allowing his daughter to sleep with ever passing elf) even though it produces half-breed children simply because "hey, they're still increasing the size of this community, and we need every hand we can get with them gnolls over the hills sneaking in in the night and nabbing people in their sleep".
When it comes to reproduction, lesbian relationships in the realms can easily produce their own child because if they sleep with men and get pregnant, there's generally no way to take the child away. However, a gay male couple would run into issues. They could adopt, but there may be "more suitable" applicants available (even if said applicants simply want the children so that they can have them work their farm). Some may run into trying to go to extreme measures, such as stealing a baby in its womb via magic, which isn't exactly an option in our world (that I know of anyway). However, with the ability to erase minds and well.... magic... it might be possible to say have a male impregnate a human female then transfer the child to another vessel to carry the child (and with magic.. that might be a another human female willing to help the couple, a female of another race, a cow, or even a magical "mothering" construct crafted from flesh).
Not really queer culture, but since we were talking reproduction there's also hags, which steal children and turn them into hags, but they CAN also produce hagspawn. Is hag culture geared towards woman only, with males being treated as nothing more than seed? Do they have an inherent hatred towards males, or is it that all hagspawn will be male and the only way to produce new hags is the other way? Nothing in the hagspawn description implies its male only... I might want to reread that. I do know things have varied by edition as well. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2020 : 20:00:11
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
One of the best things I can see to do with this thread is to propose... how do you use it? By that, I mean to what end do you wish to go by being obvious about someone's sexual preference or need to be of a certain sex? Would it be more acceptable for a human man to impregnate a an orc to produce a half-orc child (or a farmer allowing his daughter to sleep with ever passing elf) even though it produces half-breed children simply because "hey, they're still increasing the size of this community, and we need every hand we can get with them gnolls over the hills sneaking in in the night and nabbing people in their sleep".
When it comes to reproduction, lesbian relationships in the realms can easily produce their own child because if they sleep with men and get pregnant, there's generally no way to take the child away. However, a gay male couple would run into issues. They could adopt, but there may be "more suitable" applicants available (even if said applicants simply want the children so that they can have them work their farm). Some may run into trying to go to extreme measures, such as stealing a baby in its womb via magic, which isn't exactly an option in our world (that I know of anyway). However, with the ability to erase minds and well.... magic... it might be possible to say have a male impregnate a human female then transfer the child to another vessel to carry the child (and with magic.. that might be a another human female willing to help the couple, a female of another race, a cow, or even a magical "mothering" construct crafted from flesh).
Not really queer culture, but since we were talking reproduction there's also hags, which steal children and turn them into hags, but they CAN also produce hagspawn. Is hag culture geared towards woman only, with males being treated as nothing more than seed? Do they have an inherent hatred towards males, or is it that all hagspawn will be male and the only way to produce new hags is the other way? Nothing in the hagspawn description implies its male only... I might want to reread that. I do know things have varied by edition as well.
I don’t know why you think a thread asking about queer culture to propose a “loan out my daughter to strangers to make strong babies” nightmare scenario or to fixate on the nitty gritty of reproductive mechanics.
I’d much sooner steer in the direction of things like “what is like like for transgender Rashemi, given the gendered magical traditions of that culture - but also the practice of mask-wearing (indicating some degree of choosing your own identity) and their lengthy history with the notoriously fluid spirits and fey?” |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2020 : 21:48:15
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
As an aside... the witcher is a book series? I never played the games, but I've been watching the Netflix series and I'm liking it. Is it really good? Who is the author?
The books are SOOOOO good; and so is Witcher 3 (of the games it is the best..maybe the best RPG of all time up there with the Baldur's Gate series and the best Final Fantasy games).
If you like the show, just think its a poor adaption of an amazing book series. Books > Games > tv show... back to your thread!
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2020 : 23:05:51
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
So here's an odd take. One of the few areas in the Realms with strong gender-based roles is the clergy. In some churches (e.g. Sharindlar, but not Chauntea), there seems to be a strong affiliation between the perceived gender of the deity and the majority of the priesthood.
Is this because certain faiths are only "attractive" to certain genders? Or is this because gender is simply one more "litmus test" for joining the clergy that deliberately restricts its membership?
In a world where magic is available and regularly employed to change genders, what pressures or implications does this have for the intersection of gender / sexuality / faith / and calling?
I don't have any answers for any of that, but it could be something for a PC or a storyteller to explore.
Eric, while you're thinking about gender/queerness/religion in the Realms, I want to poke your brain about something.
Wasn't there one high priest who had their gender changed between the 2e god books and Faiths and Pantheons? Was that intentional? I can't remember who it is, and I tried looking it up to no avail.
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Might I ask; what is gained by replicating patriarchy, misogyny, homophobia, and transphobia in the Realms? There are enough political and fantastical threats - surely not every evil of our world needs to be replicated?
When I was working on my project on trans culture in Eberron, I reached out to Keith Baker a number of times, and his response re: bigotry stuck with me - that in a world with demons, aberrant horrors, and worse, hating someone based on gender identity/expression or orientation just felt silly.
One of the things that's attractive to me about the Realms as a queer trans woman is that it is highly gender expressive without being negative about it. Sex positivity and allowing space for everyone to live their best lives is a great facet of the setting to me, and I really appreciate Ed and the other writers following after him's efforts to create space for everyone to be who they want to be.
This was why I was stunned when I read Swords of Eveningstar for the first time and there's a negative discussion of lesbians in it, with "lass-lovers" conjured in very perjorative terms as a bad binary failure. I spoke to Ed about it, and found out that he'd included that as a comparison of just how small the characters and their world are at the outset of that book, before they leave for larger Cormyr and a greater understanding of things. Swords of Eveningstar, then, was part of Ed trying to open up a discourse for queer people in the Realms, and how they fit into other contexts of social class, geography, and cultural identity.
And I think that discussion is worth having. When we speak about issues of queer identity, we're looking at them in the larger context of 30+ years of published material. Like everything else with the Realms, we want to explore that, and add to it, and make it fit. Eric's question that I quoted about the role of gender within the various churches is a good example: how do we use the various facets of gender to question and queer the role of religion? What does that look like for specific deities? We can follow Ed's examples in the Heartlands, but I'd probably say biological essentialism and a very strict gender binary is an essential part of the drow pantheon as lead by Lolth. What do you do with that? Maybe you have a bunch of agender acolytes of Ghaunadaur who were attracted to the ability to literally melt their gendered features away. Perhaps you have a bunch of trans men working with Vhaeraun. Like with everything else about the Realms, we can build upon that, make something from it, create something good. But we build. We add. We stitch together. You do the thing endless writers have done where you find two pieces that don't fit and instead of changing one you put the connective tissue in there to make both right. And that is incredibly exciting! I was just checking out Sea of Fallen Stars and found that King Verovan of Westgate is petrified underwater. What am I going to do with that? I don't know yet, but if I put the pieces together, there is something great there.
It's worth realizing that the Realms has a lot more flesh on the bone, a lot more detail and a lot more cooks in the stew than Eberron has. Even if you go all the way back to the Old Gray Box, you have Ed's notes as interpreted and tweaked by Jeff Grubb (with additions for other TSR products.) I like Eberron, but the other hands that have touched it (James Wyatt, for example) haven't been nearly as interested in doing culture and exploring the setting as a living world as the FR writers have. And those years of work have created pieces of culture about gender, sex, and queer identity that don't match up. R.A. Salvatore slamming together mafia dons and dominatrixes isn't nearly as nuanced an understanding of kink as the published material on the Church of Loviatar. We have to live with that. We have to add to it. We have to reclaim it. But we can't reject it, or the entire ethos of the Realms as this board (and many of the designers and writers) see it goes out the window.
However, that doesn't mean that we have to replicate all of this in our own games. Use safety tools. Spend time with your players to understand their desires, limits, and concerns. I have a player in my game who is playing a lesbian, and we talked it through and what that meant to her. She doesn't want homophobia to be a thing in our game, and I respect that. It won't happen. I myself wouldn't want transphobia to be a thing in a Realms game I ran or played in. But what I do in my game, what I focus on and draw from the texts and bring to my players, is a different thing from the writing of the setting at large.
postscript: The thing that I have tried to tease out of Ed many times over the years and never succeeded in getting is a description of how transitioning works in the Realms, the ways and means and so on. I have a couple ideas about how it might be done, but getting actual concrete details would be really nice for trans representation in the setting. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2020 : 00:15:10
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
One of the best things I can see to do with this thread is to propose... how do you use it? By that, I mean to what end do you wish to go by being obvious about someone's sexual preference or need to be of a certain sex? Would it be more acceptable for a human man to impregnate a an orc to produce a half-orc child (or a farmer allowing his daughter to sleep with ever passing elf) even though it produces half-breed children simply because "hey, they're still increasing the size of this community, and we need every hand we can get with them gnolls over the hills sneaking in in the night and nabbing people in their sleep".
When it comes to reproduction, lesbian relationships in the realms can easily produce their own child because if they sleep with men and get pregnant, there's generally no way to take the child away. However, a gay male couple would run into issues. They could adopt, but there may be "more suitable" applicants available (even if said applicants simply want the children so that they can have them work their farm). Some may run into trying to go to extreme measures, such as stealing a baby in its womb via magic, which isn't exactly an option in our world (that I know of anyway). However, with the ability to erase minds and well.... magic... it might be possible to say have a male impregnate a human female then transfer the child to another vessel to carry the child (and with magic.. that might be a another human female willing to help the couple, a female of another race, a cow, or even a magical "mothering" construct crafted from flesh).
Not really queer culture, but since we were talking reproduction there's also hags, which steal children and turn them into hags, but they CAN also produce hagspawn. Is hag culture geared towards woman only, with males being treated as nothing more than seed? Do they have an inherent hatred towards males, or is it that all hagspawn will be male and the only way to produce new hags is the other way? Nothing in the hagspawn description implies its male only... I might want to reread that. I do know things have varied by edition as well.
I don’t know why you think a thread asking about queer culture to propose a “loan out my daughter to strangers to make strong babies” nightmare scenario or to fixate on the nitty gritty of reproductive mechanics.
I’d much sooner steer in the direction of things like “what is like like for transgender Rashemi, given the gendered magical traditions of that culture - but also the practice of mask-wearing (indicating some degree of choosing your own identity) and their lengthy history with the notoriously fluid spirits and fey?”
Gotcha, so the point was that some cultures on Toril may actually find it more acceptable to have half-breeds than allowing individuals to pursue same sex matches. The reasoning behind the statement is that the half-breeds are at least new "resources" for the community. Yet we know that half-breeds are not treated fairly in FR either. Thus, basically its a point as to why some cultures might actually shun this kind of pairing, which they would see as a "luxury that doesn't produce fruit", and might even SAY things like "I'd rather she marry herself to a hairy damned orc first".
Would all cultures be this way? No. I would imagine it to come in in places with less individuals, thus the need for "everyone to pull their weight". People in these places might be more willing to turn a blind eye to individuals that pursue that lifestyle, but likely they'll be treated as "outside the community" to a degree. This might also make such individuals more open for attack from outsiders, as they see these people have little in the way of a support network.
As to the Rashemi being gender fluid, I'm not buying it that its common place. They are very concerned with gender, to the point that they separate themselves out. The women seem to have an idea there that they can't trust the men to rule themselves, and therefore, I can't see them "valuing" being a man that much. Now, I COULD see there being gay individuals amongst both the Vremyonni and the Wychlaran, as both groups do tend to be isolated (moreso the Vremyonni). I'd buy more that the wychlaran would be bisexual than lesbian though, as they do also seem to favor a motherly role.... but then again they may have traditions in which there is mating encouraged between Vremyonni and Hathran purely for the purpose of producing magically competent children.
But then maybe another kind of "transgender" could mean hermaphrodites? Amongst our populations something on the web is saying that "noticeably irregular" genitalia accounts for maybe 1 in 2000 births (seems a little high to me, but I'm not in the industry). Still, if Rashemen had 1 person in each village, how might that individual be treated? Arguments could be made to view it as a curse or a blessing. I'm not quite sure how they'd treat them. Part of me thinks the Rashemi witches might take such individuals away to live amongst the spirits. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2020 : 00:48:42
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Arivia, I must say, that idea of the trans followers of Vhaeraun is interesting to say the least. I wonder how many might try to infiltrate Lolth's temples to work against them.
BTW, one thing I had noted in the past was in reading some of George's work. I found something that I had originally thought was a change he made, but then found out that it was actually a change made in Unapproachable East. Basically, Rilaunyr was noted in the old 2e Bloodstone lands as being one of Impiltur's Lords of Imphras II and being male. He had "Rilaunyr's Warship" and was travelling the seas to protect Impilturian interests from pirates. I then noted in his dragon article on Impiltur that it listed Rilaunyr still as a Lord of Imphras II, but now Rilaunyr is a female paladin of Sune. We had a brief discussion on it and thought it would make a good story that actually Rilaunyr, as a follower of Sune, may have sought out to become female. The other thought was that he had changed gender via magical mishap and that afterwards his interests changed and he pursued a new religion. I honestly don't know which makes a better story. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2020 : 00:52:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
As an aside... the witcher is a book series? I never played the games, but I've been watching the Netflix series and I'm liking it. Is it really good? Who is the author?
The books are SOOOOO good; and so is Witcher 3 (of the games it is the best..maybe the best RPG of all time up there with the Baldur's Gate series and the best Final Fantasy games).
If you like the show, just think its a poor adaption of an amazing book series. Books > Games > tv show... back to your thread!
Thank you. I will hunt that down right now. I typically find that when people HERE say a book is really good... it usually is... For instance, Wooly mentioned a book with a title something like "Zeus is Dead" and said it was funny... and I have to say... silly, but I laughed my butt off. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2020 : 01:15:13
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
As an aside... the witcher is a book series? I never played the games, but I've been watching the Netflix series and I'm liking it. Is it really good? Who is the author?
The books are SOOOOO good; and so is Witcher 3 (of the games it is the best..maybe the best RPG of all time up there with the Baldur's Gate series and the best Final Fantasy games).
If you like the show, just think its a poor adaption of an amazing book series. Books > Games > tv show... back to your thread!
Thank you. I will hunt that down right now. I typically find that when people HERE say a book is really good... it usually is... For instance, Wooly mentioned a book with a title something like "Zeus is Dead" and said it was funny... and I have to say... silly, but I laughed my butt off.
There's now a sequel to that one: Zeus is Undead - This One Has Zombies!. It was also very humorous.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2020 : 01:17:26
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Arivia, I must say, that idea of the trans followers of Vhaeraun is interesting to say the least. I wonder how many might try to infiltrate Lolth's temples to work against them.
BTW, one thing I had noted in the past was in reading some of George's work. I found something that I had originally thought was a change he made, but then found out that it was actually a change made in Unapproachable East. Basically, Rilaunyr was noted in the old 2e Bloodstone lands as being one of Impiltur's Lords of Imphras II and being male. He had "Rilaunyr's Warship" and was travelling the seas to protect Impilturian interests from pirates. I then noted in his dragon article on Impiltur that it listed Rilaunyr still as a Lord of Imphras II, but now Rilaunyr is a female paladin of Sune. We had a brief discussion on it and thought it would make a good story that actually Rilaunyr, as a follower of Sune, may have sought out to become female. The other thought was that he had changed gender via magical mishap and that afterwards his interests changed and he pursued a new religion. I honestly don't know which makes a better story.
Well, one gives us a cool devout trans woman privateer, and one gives us a tired narrative that’s usually used as a setup for a bad joke, so I know my vote. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2020 : 01:21:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
postscript: The thing that I have tried to tease out of Ed many times over the years and never succeeded in getting is a description of how transitioning works in the Realms, the ways and means and so on. I have a couple ideas about how it might be done, but getting actual concrete details would be really nice for trans representation in the setting.
He answers questions on the Twitter, now. I've been compiling the answers as best I can, here: Ed Greenwood on Twitter. You can go on Twitter and ask about that, or if you're not on the Twitter, PM me your question and I'll ask him for you. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2020 : 01:33:58
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Arivia, I must say, that idea of the trans followers of Vhaeraun is interesting to say the least. I wonder how many might try to infiltrate Lolth's temples to work against them.
BTW, one thing I had noted in the past was in reading some of George's work. I found something that I had originally thought was a change he made, but then found out that it was actually a change made in Unapproachable East. Basically, Rilaunyr was noted in the old 2e Bloodstone lands as being one of Impiltur's Lords of Imphras II and being male. He had "Rilaunyr's Warship" and was travelling the seas to protect Impilturian interests from pirates. I then noted in his dragon article on Impiltur that it listed Rilaunyr still as a Lord of Imphras II, but now Rilaunyr is a female paladin of Sune. We had a brief discussion on it and thought it would make a good story that actually Rilaunyr, as a follower of Sune, may have sought out to become female. The other thought was that he had changed gender via magical mishap and that afterwards his interests changed and he pursued a new religion. I honestly don't know which makes a better story.
Well, one gives us a cool devout trans woman privateer, and one gives us a tired narrative that’s usually used as a setup for a bad joke, so I know my vote.
I'd assume there were two of them, myself. The elder Lord, with the warship, and the younger Sunite. Maybe the younger was a daughter, maybe a niece, possibly even someone he adopted. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2020 : 02:21:40
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| One thing I did away with, as a “cursed” item was the Girdle of Femininity/Masculinity since some individuals actually seek them out. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2020 : 02:26:28
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| One thing I did away with, as a “cursed” item was the Girdle of Femininity/Masculinity since some individuals actually seek them out. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2020 : 02:59:28
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
But then maybe another kind of "transgender" could mean [intersex]? Amongst our populations something on the web is saying that "noticeably irregular" genitalia accounts for maybe 1 in 2000 births (seems a little high to me, but I'm not in the industry). Still, if Rashemen had 1 person in each village, how might that individual be treated? Arguments could be made to view it as a curse or a blessing. I'm not quite sure how they'd treat them. Part of me thinks the Rashemi witches might take such individuals away to live amongst the spirits.
Sleyvas, I don't think you meant anything malicious by it, but the term you used in your post is considered to be a medical profession enforced slur against intersex people (those with biological differences from the standard models of male or female in their genitals, hormones, or sex characteristics.) It's appropriate to use for animals, but really offensive to describe people with. Additionally, intersex people aren't trans, and vice-versa (unless you're doing hardcore theorizing in the kinds of real world politics Candlekeep usually doesn't get into.) I get the point of your question though: being born intersex does question the sex binary pretty strongly, and is an effective repudiation of those binaries. However, the trauma that intersex babies usually experience after birth (including being assigned a sex and gender) is such a hurtful, still unresolved issue, that I'd be extremely wary to include it in a game.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
postscript: The thing that I have tried to tease out of Ed many times over the years and never succeeded in getting is a description of how transitioning works in the Realms, the ways and means and so on. I have a couple ideas about how it might be done, but getting actual concrete details would be really nice for trans representation in the setting.
He answers questions on the Twitter, now. I've been compiling the answers as best I can, here: Ed Greenwood on Twitter. You can go on Twitter and ask about that, or if you're not on the Twitter, PM me your question and I'll ask him for you.
I pinged him about it here, we'll see if he responds: https://twitter.com/icequeenerika/status/1217269729624281088
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
One thing I did away with, as a “cursed” item was the Girdle of Femininity/Masculinity since some individuals actually seek them out.
I planned about writing an article on that girdle for SWORD JAM but was too busy to follow through. I don't think it's irredeemable, though. (However, it certainly shouldn't be the only way to transition in your game!) The girdle is often used as a curse in order to create humour about gender expression, and only becomes really hurtful when you start dragging in gender identity, dysphoria, and physical transitioning. What I think would be best to do with it is change it to a list of limited options of various presentations (femme/masculine/feminine/drag/genderqueer/gender****/butch/etc), then you make it into more of a classic theatre trope of playing as another gender, instead of it truly changing the character's identity. If it becomes about expression only, the worst it will get are sitcom tropes of "wow girls sure like shopping!" (You can argue the value of those tropes, but that's certainly a safer comedy realm for many groups, both queer and cishet.)
e: oh! I remembered one of the characters that changes gender between editions. Farene of Westgate is female in the Old Gray Box and Forgotten Realms Adventures, and then Cloak and Dagger starts off calling them male and switches to female midway through the description. The Cloak and Dagger description seems pretty great for a bigender person or a crossdresser, so I'll run with something like that in my game. |
Edited by - Arivia on 15 Jan 2020 03:06:26 |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2020 : 03:32:03
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| My own release, Blessed of the Traveler, suggests a number of means for physical transition in the setting for those who want it: herbal supplements, accessories enchanted with persistent illusions to aid in gender expression, and a cheap-ish ritual that does a minor permanent polymorph effect for sexual characteristics and other gendered elements of the body that I suggest priests and mages can do relatively cheaply. While the book is intended for Eberron and leans heavily on the lore for it elsewhere, this section is all pretty much setting-neutral. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2020 : 04:23:03
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Arivia, I must say, that idea of the trans followers of Vhaeraun is interesting to say the least. I wonder how many might try to infiltrate Lolth's temples to work against them.
BTW, one thing I had noted in the past was in reading some of George's work. I found something that I had originally thought was a change he made, but then found out that it was actually a change made in Unapproachable East. Basically, Rilaunyr was noted in the old 2e Bloodstone lands as being one of Impiltur's Lords of Imphras II and being male. He had "Rilaunyr's Warship" and was travelling the seas to protect Impilturian interests from pirates. I then noted in his dragon article on Impiltur that it listed Rilaunyr still as a Lord of Imphras II, but now Rilaunyr is a female paladin of Sune. We had a brief discussion on it and thought it would make a good story that actually Rilaunyr, as a follower of Sune, may have sought out to become female. The other thought was that he had changed gender via magical mishap and that afterwards his interests changed and he pursued a new religion. I honestly don't know which makes a better story.
I can clarify that after checking with Ed he confirmed that there were many faiths of the Realms where gender change and gender fluidity were unremarkable - the faiths of Sune and Leira being the two most prominent, but for different reasons. So in "my" Impiltur, Rilaunyr's gender change was a positive choice on her part and part and parcel of her evolving understanding of herself and of the Sunite faith. After all, love is love.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 15 Jan 2020 04:25:33 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2020 : 04:38:09
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Not looking to start a fight, but I also do not like to be told that I'm using hate speech (to be clear, much of what you said is exactly what I agree with). Politically correct is a thing, and its a tool being used to quash people's ability to espouse ideals contradictory to other people's ideas (in all directions).
The concept of "political correctness" was invented by the right to shame and mock people talking about social responsibility, and the modern meaning is *absolutely* that. It is a right-wing dogwhistle.
If you're going to use that term, you should know the context and history--a context and history that is, by and large, extremely hostile to LGBTQ people and inclusiveness.
And to be clear, I did not accuse you of using hate speech. Using a right-wing rhetorical device isn't necessarily hate speech, but if your response to "are there queer people in the Realms" is "why are people trying to make the Realms all politically correct?" Man... defining basic inclusion as "political correctness" is pretty telling.
I don't think of you as right-wing, hateful, or intentionally belittling of others, for what it's worth. I hope you take a step back and consider these issues in depth.
I have nothing further to say on the subject. |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 15 Jan 2020 04:46:26 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2020 : 04:42:45
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quote:
Originally posted by AJA
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
George, when was that excerpt from Ed you shared originally posted? Is it recent or from years ago?
Erik, most of it comes from Ed's 2004 "Ask Ed" thread) (scroll down to 10 Sep, posted by The Hooded One):
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1901&whichpage=53
Thanks! That's really helpful.
I wonder how Ed would answer this question now, 15 years later. We do evolve in how we view these things and especially how we *talk* about them. |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Queer Culture in the Realms
