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keftiu
Learned Scribe

140 Posts

Posted - 31 Dec 2019 :  17:58:59  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I am so, so hesitant to make this thread. Hope everyone behaves.

What is there in canon about queer culture across the setting? Definitely curious about homosexuality in various nations (and ideally things other than “shameful” or “punished”), but I’m especially wondering if there’s anything either published or easy to extrapolate trans identities from.

I published a book about trans identities in a number of races and societies in Eberron, and would love to know if someone had done similar work!

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
32829 Posts

Posted - 31 Dec 2019 :  18:16:19  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's not really been addressed that much, save for a passing reference here and there.

TSR was scared of running afoul of the many self-proclaimed moral watchdogs of the age, and went out of their way to avoid anything other than straight, cis characters (actually, TSR barely even touched on anything related to sex).

When WotC came along, there was less concern over the potential blowback on such topics, but they still more or less didn't really go into it. It's only been in the last few years that they've become more inclusive; there was I believe I 5E book where they finally, point blank said "hey, your character doesn't have to be straight and cis, they can be LGBTQ." Oddly, there was a lot of debate over that one (debate that we WILL NOT be having again!).

Ed has more than once addressed the topic; what he has said is that for the most part, as long as everyone involved is of age and consenting, no one really cares.

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Stonwulfe
Learned Scribe

Canada
81 Posts

Posted - 31 Dec 2019 :  18:33:27  Show Profile  Visit Stonwulfe's Homepage Send Stonwulfe a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To be fair...

Chorus: "To be faaaiiiiiirrr"

... Trans isn't really as much of an identity expression in a world where, if ye be of sufficient means, skill, time, belief, or patience you can change genders at will.

Sure, there will be those whose identity is that they split the divide but when you can, with very little effort, alter genitalia or any specific part to your choosing there is little "window dressing" required to define your uniqueness. In many ways, I imagine living in Faerun would present a greater freedom of expression than we experience today.

Edited by - Stonwulfe on 31 Dec 2019 18:40:51
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keftiu
Learned Scribe

140 Posts

Posted - 31 Dec 2019 :  18:35:07  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Stonwulfe

To be fair...

Chorus: "To be faaaiiiiiirrr"

... Trans isn't really as much of an identity expression in a world where, if ye be of sufficient means, skill, time, belief, or patience you can change genders at will.

Sure, there will be those whose identity is that they split the divide but when you can, with very little effort, genitalia or any specific part to your choosing there is little "window dressing" required to define your uniqueness. In many ways, I imagine living in Faerun would present a greater freedom of expression than we experience today.



Oh, certainly, but there’s more to gender identities than just the binary, whether cis or not. I’d love to hear if any cultures have third genders, or room for a fluid identity, or non-binary and agender ones.

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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Stonwulfe
Learned Scribe

Canada
81 Posts

Posted - 31 Dec 2019 :  18:49:28  Show Profile  Visit Stonwulfe's Homepage Send Stonwulfe a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, certainly, but there is an interesting anthropological question to be asked which is, how do the fluid or non-binary gender identities develop in a culture where the social, spiritual, and physical daily realities don't explicitly rule them out or make them taboo (that is to say, no opposition or constraints via social construct).

Further to the point, how do said identities develop where there is only the promise of prosecution, excommunication, and death (the extremes of constraints) when those constraints suddenly disappear?

We've ample evidence to how these manifest in the modern day Earth-based Eurocentric developed world, and a myriad of responses in between. However, do/would people within the Forgotten Realms continue to associate internal realities of identity with cis-focused gender/sex when the biology and (thereby) sex-based gendered experiences can and will change by the aid of magic?

My son is trans. I've had these conversations at length with him, as we both enjoy philosophy and conversations of an anthropological/sociological bent (I have a degree in Anthropology). We both agree that the truth likely lies somewhere in the middle, but it's just as likely for someone to freak out when they find out their partner was born of a different sex and changed it via magic for a personal reason - perhaps to escape a prior life, relationship, or circumstance... perhaps because it better aligns with their inner truth.

There are a lot of trans men who I am certain would use magic to make the change fully, without the aid of surgery. And vice versa. And many who wouldn't.

(Edited to add: I also think that fluid identities or persuasions become interesting as those physical realities may also be fluid. Maybe a thief steals a girdle of transmutation so they can fluidly shift back and forth - or to inbetween states - of physical expression. Interesting character idea.)

Edited by - Stonwulfe on 31 Dec 2019 18:58:42
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nblanton
Seeker

USA
40 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2020 :  16:47:50  Show Profile Send nblanton a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Currently in my campaign, I had a male aasimar sorcerer who was associated with the church of Isis in Mulhorand.

The character had wanted to be a cleric, but had been rejected by the church due to his gender. He left his homeland and joined the party in Tilverton. The player moved away and the character left the party and took a powerful magic item the party found in the Spiderhaunt Woods to seek out a transmuter who would perform the conversion so that the character could become what they wanted to be.

I'm planning on returning to this character at some point with the rest of my group. I don't think there is any general attitude towards those who are trans, but my guess is that some groups would be opposed to such things.
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keftiu
Learned Scribe

140 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2020 :  19:01:11  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I keep wondering if Rashemen might be a good place to explore this. On one hand, their culture is aggressively gendered, but on the other, many real-world animist belief systems had room for third genders or some degree of fluidity. It’s not like the spirits and fey they revere must adhere to any societal notion of a binary.

And hey, if you can choose your own mask...

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1018 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2020 :  21:23:03  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In old school Realms, I can think of two more in your face versions of queer references/characters in the Realms (I know Bob had a few gay characters in the 2000s+ though).

So the first is sort of offensively that Lhaeo was masquerading as a "lisping man-lover" (think Spellfire called him that?) who supposedly pleasured Elminster as a houseboy while hiding from assassins as the last heir to throne of Tethyr. They never "went there" with it but a few early novels did pass him off as a gay manservant while he was secretly in a relationship with Storm. It was all a bit odd; he could have just been an apprentice of Elminster who lived with him. Not sure why they had to make him out to be gay and lisping...but it was the 80s.

The second, much more positive early queer references that I can determine in mainstream Realms is the relationship between the half-elven ruler of Elversult, Yanseldara and her partner Vaerana Hawklyn. Their relationship in the 90s was never quite flat out stated to be romantic partners, but it was heavily implied especially in the novel The Veiled Dragon; and Ed has subsequently stated absolutely they are romantic partners but TSR at the time wasn't willing to state outright they were lesbians as Wooly said they were a bit hesitant on the sexual front in the day and age where mothers thought D&D would lead to satanism...

If there are other early references to queer characters or culture in the published Realms I'm not aware, but there may well be! Ed's OWN version of the Realms of course I believe is MUCH more fluid with sexuality and queer characters and he's written quite a bit about it over the years.

Edited by - Seravin on 05 Jan 2020 21:24:46
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4597 Posts

Posted - 07 Jan 2020 :  15:30:32  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hail and well met,

Long time participant, author, and designer here, though it's been a while since I've been on Candlekeep. (Sorry about that, all.)

A lot of the queer content in the canon Realms (novels, sourcebooks, etc) is subtextual, due in large part to such things as the moral watchdogs Wooly was talking about, the Realms historically being in the hands of mostly cishet dudes who had little to no interest in exploring queer content (TSR and later WotC--I'm not saying there weren't exceptions, they just weren't the rule), and the fanbase being perceived (to some extent correctly) as either disinterested or aggressively unwelcoming (your anxieties upon posting this thread are somewhat founded).

That said, queer characters have always been in the Realms, from the very beginning. He'd be the one to tell you more, but Ed Greenwood grew up in a context much less inhibited than the mainstream as regards sex and love, and that shows in his creation. (As for gender stuff, he's also directly spoken about the inclusion of trans people in the Realms--can't grab the link right now, but google "ed greenwood trans characters forgotten realms" and you should find it; not 100% modern language on the subject, but the intent is pure). You can see little bits and pieces of inclusion, regarding Yanseldara and Vaerana, for instance (it's not a coincidence that I set my story, The Greater Treasure, in Elversult), or the heavily implied relationship between Alusair and Caladnei in the 1360s/70s.

Perhaps the most obvious, highly visible, and canonical same-sex relationship comes from the War of the Spider Queen novels, between Danifae and Quenthel, which is not only clearly a sexual relationship between two women but also taps into the inherent powerplay nature of the drow as a people.

My own stuff is full of queer content, from the subtextual stuff in GHOSTWALKER (it's never clearly stated, but several of those characters are *not* straight), to the kiss between two female characters in DEPTHS OF MADNESS (which always seems to be the thing I get dragged for in the Amazon reviews, funny that), to a tangled, dramatic mess of various identities and orientations in my SHADOWBANE series (particularly but not limited to Ilira, Fayne, Rhett, Myrin, and even Kalen himself). This will also be made more clear in my forthcoming Westgate Campaign Guide, which I hope to have out on the guild by, oh, GenCon 2020? That seems like a good launch date.

I like to tell people (and I've been saying this consistently since I started writing in the setting, my first book coming out in 2005) that sexuality and gender are much more fluid and the sort of heteronormative atmosphere we have in our world is absent in the Realms.

What we would call “LGBT” people, to the folk of the Realms, are just “more people.”

I often describe the Realms as viewing bisexuality (the B in LGBT) or, more apropos, pansexuality (similar to but not always the same, depending on variable definitions beyond the scope of this particular thread) as the most common orientation, like how heterosexuality is considered the most common orientation in our world. In a world populated by not only various genders but various species of people, it’s not only unlikely for people to develop in a way that limits their attraction and interests, but it’s also just inefficient. Are there some weirdos who frown and grumble and express their wish that people express themselves a certain way? Sure, but they're widely viewed as just that: weirdos with weird hangups.

Other orientations exist, of course. If you want a character who is entirely straight (their attraction is exclusive to people of the "opposite" gender) or gay (exclusive to the "same" gender), that’s totally fine, and a thing in the setting. There’s no stigma attached to it, other than maybe some people thinking it’s oddly limited (and the aforementioned weirdos).

And when you get into gender issues, such as T (trans), this is a world where transmutation magic shifts people’s assigned gender all the time and extremely easily. There are people of all sorts of identities, and they are the same as everyone else: more people.

And again, I’m not just saying all this for the fun of it, but because this is HOW THE REALMS is constructed.

Anyway, the Realms has included lots of gender and orientation diversity from its founding, and it has become more tolerant and expansive over the years as more progressive-minded people work their way up at WotC. Jeremy Crawford, for instance, is a proud gay man who gladly infuses WotC's D&D output with LGBTQ stuff, and James Wyatt, the proud father of a trans daughter, does the same over on Magic. The future is bright and a bit queer.

So anyway, I hope that helps.

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1018 Posts

Posted - 07 Jan 2020 :  15:40:44  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To add a small bit to what Erik so very well said; while the queerness of the early characters was not in your face, I don't recall any characters being homophobic or gaybashing in any of the novels or sourcebooks - despite acknowledging say Yanseldara and Vaerana as a couple (which no one has any problem with).

I am still a bit put off by Lhaeo's "disguise" in the early books. I don't think that aged well at all. Fascinated by any of the pre-2000s gay references though; very few of them!
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4597 Posts

Posted - 07 Jan 2020 :  15:48:13  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

I am still a bit put off by Lhaeo's "disguise" in the early books. I don't think that aged well at all.
I agree. And this isn't the sort of thing I think WotC would do these days, if they were still in the business of producing novels. We've evolved in our world a little bit.

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
3102 Posts

Posted - 07 Jan 2020 :  16:55:40  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You got my attention with this upcoming Westgate Campaign Guide Erik!

Interesting discussion. IIRC didn't Mystra turned Elminster into a Woman in Making of The Mage?

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
1637 Posts

Posted - 07 Jan 2020 :  17:04:14  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So here's an odd take. One of the few areas in the Realms with strong gender-based roles is the clergy. In some churches (e.g. Sharindlar, but not Chauntea), there seems to be a strong affiliation between the perceived gender of the deity and the majority of the priesthood.

Is this because certain faiths are only "attractive" to certain genders? Or is this because gender is simply one more "litmus test" for joining the clergy that deliberately restricts its membership?

In a world where magic is available and regularly employed to change genders, what pressures or implications does this have for the intersection of gender / sexuality / faith / and calling?

I don't have any answers for any of that, but it could be something for a PC or a storyteller to explore.

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3141 Posts

Posted - 07 Jan 2020 :  18:20:27  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Eilistraee is also an example of that. In her case, Ed said that the reason lies in the goddess' own nature (her mothering of the drow). Males used to perform a changedance (turning into women) to rise in level as clerics, though that's no longer necessary after the Sundering--I'm guessing due to how Eilistraee adapted her perspective after having held Vhaeraun's portfolio for a while. That said, there's also the fact that, among drow, women are naturally more attracted to divine magic, while males are to arcane (or so it was back in the 2e/3e era, when Ed introduced this concept).


To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
32829 Posts

Posted - 07 Jan 2020 :  19:14:15  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

That said, there's also the fact that, among drow, women are naturally more attracted to divine magic, while males are to arcane (or so it was back in the 2e/3e era, when Ed introduced this concept).



I'm not sure that was anything more than a cultural thing: most drow societies revolve around Lolth, who favored female clergy. Drow males wanting to do something other than swing a sword didn't have many other options, aside from the arcane.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4597 Posts

Posted - 07 Jan 2020 :  21:08:46  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

So here's an odd take. One of the few areas in the Realms with strong gender-based roles is the clergy...
Real good question, Eric.

I suspect that Realms churches often have strong traditions that run along gender lines, and that they were constructed that way in part because that's how churches work in our world, and Ed is a product of our world. And yes, there's probably a certain sympathy between the traditional gender of the deity and the gender preference among its followers, though sometimes it might be mismatched, depending on whom the deity appeals to.

Perhaps it's a bit like celebrities in our world: it's generally more expected for men to identify with male celebrities and women to identify with female celebrities, rather than vice versa. It's easier to see yourself as that entity if you share something as core to your identity as a gender.

Just a thought.

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1018 Posts

Posted - 07 Jan 2020 :  22:43:36  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sidebar: I believe Labelas Enoreth, the elven deity of time, is or was listed as appearing as both male and female at once. I think this is more about being beyond gender, rather than non-binary as we would explain it in our world..but I still liked that concept in the early D&D days!
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BenN
Senior Scribe

Japan
372 Posts

Posted - 07 Jan 2020 :  23:52:41  Show Profile Send BenN a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

Sidebar: I believe Labelas Enoreth, the elven deity of time, is or was listed as appearing as both male and female at once.

The same goes for Corellon Larethian, right?

Also, a big YAY! to see Erik Scott de Bie again at Candlekeep!

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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1018 Posts

Posted - 08 Jan 2020 :  00:26:11  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes! Sorry forgot to include that both Corellon and Labelas are fluid in their gender and appear both male and female; although I believe I've only seen/read of them in male form in the Realms to date.
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Stonwulfe
Learned Scribe

Canada
81 Posts

Posted - 08 Jan 2020 :  19:52:51  Show Profile  Visit Stonwulfe's Homepage Send Stonwulfe a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have always assumed that Alusair Obarskyr and Caladnei were an item.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8536 Posts

Posted - 08 Jan 2020 :  22:12:19  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

To add a small bit to what Erik so very well said; while the queerness of the early characters was not in your face, I don't recall any characters being homophobic or gaybashing in any of the novels or sourcebooks - despite acknowledging say Yanseldara and Vaerana as a couple (which no one has any problem with).

I am still a bit put off by Lhaeo's "disguise" in the early books. I don't think that aged well at all. Fascinated by any of the pre-2000s gay references though; very few of them!



Didn't Lhaeo get married to a woman and become a king? I mean, it does make sense that he might live with an ultra-powerful archmage for protection purposes without it getting sexual.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3141 Posts

Posted - 08 Jan 2020 :  23:04:09  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

That said, there's also the fact that, among drow, women are naturally more attracted to divine magic, while males are to arcane (or so it was back in the 2e/3e era, when Ed introduced this concept).



I'm not sure that was anything more than a cultural thing: most drow societies revolve around Lolth, who favored female clergy. Drow males wanting to do something other than swing a sword didn't have many other options, aside from the arcane.



I've always assumed that it was innate, given that the drow's favorite class was cleric for women and wizard for men, no matter which faith/culture they came from, but it might just be that it was a cultural thing and WotC didn't bother to change it for different factions (which should have been done, IMO, at least for the Vhaeraunites).

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 08 Jan 2020 23:04:29
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AJA
Senior Scribe

USA
395 Posts

Posted - 09 Jan 2020 :  07:02:31  Show Profile Send AJA a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Didn't Lhaeo get married to a woman and become a king? I mean, it does make sense that he might live with an ultra-powerful archmage for protection purposes without it getting sexual.

I would suspect key words like "lisping" and "simpering" are what Seravin is put off by. In a larger world they may be valid as character descriptors, but they become less so when applied to your only in-print (ostensibly) gay character "man-lover" (again, as Seravin said, not something that aged well).


AJA
YAFRP

Edited by - AJA on 09 Jan 2020 07:04:36
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1018 Posts

Posted - 09 Jan 2020 :  11:15:28  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

To add a small bit to what Erik so very well said; while the queerness of the early characters was not in your face, I don't recall any characters being homophobic or gaybashing in any of the novels or sourcebooks - despite acknowledging say Yanseldara and Vaerana as a couple (which no one has any problem with).

I am still a bit put off by Lhaeo's "disguise" in the early books. I don't think that aged well at all. Fascinated by any of the pre-2000s gay references though; very few of them!



Didn't Lhaeo get married to a woman and become a king? I mean, it does make sense that he might live with an ultra-powerful archmage for protection purposes without it getting sexual.



Yes he definitely did marry a woman and become king; and while he was masquerading as Elminster's boytoy he dated Storm on the side (not much was made of their relationship in the books though). He was never gay, just pretending to be because I guess no one would suspect an heir to the throne to be gay??? That's what's irritating about the whole concept. And I think that is Ed's idea...
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8536 Posts

Posted - 09 Jan 2020 :  13:33:15  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
gotcha, I thought you were intimating that he was and they were trying to hide it in the books. I can definitely seem him pretending if it protects him. Hell, Jack did it on Three's Company.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1018 Posts

Posted - 09 Jan 2020 :  22:11:57  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Lol I never would have connected Jack Tripper and Lhaeo...god bless Candlekeep!
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