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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Oct 2019 : 10:37:10
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I am pondering about how Shadowdark - underdark in Shadow Plane - works. As both are constantly changing how is it that there is so much overlap? Do you have any specific explanation of this phenomenon? Please do not say it is magic as there is no point in discussing that.
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4426 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2019 : 16:17:40
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| Are they any Canon sources on it? I'd assume that it works mostly like other areas of the Shadowfell but....darker? Does Faerzress exist in the Shadowfell and if so, how would it affect that particular plane? |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2019 : 13:24:04
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@Diffan - I have not found any such source.
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
I guess it depends on how you view the shadow plane.
If you view the shadow plane and material plane as separate entities then it is much more difficult to overlap the two and have something in one plane affect the other.
I tend to think of the shadow plane as coexistant with the material so it literally is a shadowy image of the material plane. Any mountains on the material will also exist on the shadow plane. Any underdark caverns on the material will also exist on the shadow plane.
Places that are powerful in shadows or in negative energy (I have the shadow plane as transitive with the negative energy plane) also exist in the shadow plane but are magnified in size and features and possibly allow travel between shadow and material using rifts or tears.
Things get more complicated when the faeree plane is also coexistant with the material plane and transitive to the positive energy plane. But it also seems that the faeree and shadow are transitive to each other. If you delve into the underdark of faeree you come to the shadow plane and if you journey into the sky of the shadow plane you must surely reach faeree.
I try not to think about the planes too much as it complicates things, but it is necessary to have a consistent view on how they work in your own game.
I see shadow plane as somewhat distorted version of material plane. It was created by Shar in ancient times as a copy so it has the same geographical features as material plane except changes made later on both planes. This means there are no cities as in material, Narrow sea is still north-south, no Great Rift, ...
Both planes are connected via shadow rifts that opens in areas of deep darkness or strong negative energy (graveyards). This means that Shadowdark should be able to connect a lot with Underdark but as both are transforming naturally it seems strange that it would be that easy. Also I do not have any good idea yet as how should Shadowdark look like.
It could be that rifts in Underdark take shadow material from Shadowdark and so there are open spaces in the same locations because of that. It would also means that remaining "tunnels" would be highly unstable in Shadowdark. I see most of shadow plane mass as a semi-solid material that is shifting slightly all the time. This means going to Shadowdark without a means to pass through would be very dangerous so almost no physical beings are living there.
Shadow plane is a transitive plane as it is by far the easiest to reach from material. It has ties to negative energy plane (temporary vortices called shadowstorms) and is closer to astral plane than material. Without magic it is still rare to pass into the shadow plane so common people are safe but if you look hard enough you might get there.
I presume by Faeree you mean Fey realm and that is firmly in Outer planes in my cosmology. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2019 : 15:15:36
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Let me say first that I hadn't considered this very much, but some ideas pop immediately to mind
What if some areas of the "underdark" that we consider to BE part of the "underdark" are actually IN the "shadowdark". Similarly, there may be portions of the "Underdark" that are actually in the "Feydark". There may be natural transitions that occur in the underdark and people don't truly realize that they've left Toril and travelled to another plane. From a "scientific" standpoint, this might mean that the crust of Toril is less of a swiss cheese of tunnels than people believe.
To give an idea here, there may be POCKETS of the shadowdark that are not accessible from other areas of the shadowfell without literally walking through stone. Similar may exist in the Feydark. Periodically (and by that it could be centuries) these connections may change and these pockets get "resynched" to link into tunnels directly in the shadowdark and Feydark respectively and they become dead ends on Toril (and appearing to be collapsed tunnels).
As an example of this, the 3e city of Sphur Upra from the 3.5 Underdark is a city of gloamings. It could very much fit this. So could Chaulssin, City of Wyrmshadows, and Ringlor Noroth, City of Soaring Shadows. I wouldn't be surprised to find similar type connections with the Maulaugrym. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2019 : 15:16:48
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I'd not have the Shadowdark connected to Shar... She's already got too much shadow-stuff going on. Having her create an entire plane of shadows reminds me too much of the 3E design philosophy of "shadows are kewl, so let's make everything bad in the Realms connected to Shar!"
I'd say that the Shadow plane -- like most planes -- came into existence naturally, and that it more or less reflects the Prime. Changes in the Prime would likely be reflected in the Shadow plane, but not immediately, and even once the planes match, the Shadow plane would still be just a little off -- lines not quite straight, measurements off just enough to be noticeable, and of course eddies and swirls of shadowstuff happening right at the edge of your peripheral vision. |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2019 : 16:04:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'd not have the Shadowdark connected to Shar... She's already got too much shadow-stuff going on. Having her create an entire plane of shadows reminds me too much of the 3E design philosophy of "shadows are kewl, so let's make everything bad in the Realms connected to Shar!"
I'd say that the Shadow plane -- like most planes -- came into existence naturally, and that it more or less reflects the Prime. Changes in the Prime would likely be reflected in the Shadow plane, but not immediately, and even once the planes match, the Shadow plane would still be just a little off -- lines not quite straight, measurements off just enough to be noticeable, and of course eddies and swirls of shadowstuff happening right at the edge of your peripheral vision.
This is in turn supported by the 1e (and before 1e) design that the Shadow Plane exists as a natural opposite of the Prime Material in the same way that the Universe balances all things naturally (negative and positive, etc).
Not a creation of any deity.
It is NOT a carbon copy of the Prime Material, but a shadowy less than exact reflection of the Prime Material which is often distorted, elongated, etc just like shadows IRL.
This is further supported by numerous novels and supplements across all editions. |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2019 : 22:31:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'd not have the Shadowdark connected to Shar... She's already got too much shadow-stuff going on. Having her create an entire plane of shadows reminds me too much of the 3E design philosophy of "shadows are kewl, so let's make everything bad in the Realms connected to Shar!"
I'd say that the Shadow plane -- like most planes -- came into existence naturally, and that it more or less reflects the Prime. Changes in the Prime would likely be reflected in the Shadow plane, but not immediately, and even once the planes match, the Shadow plane would still be just a little off -- lines not quite straight, measurements off just enough to be noticeable, and of course eddies and swirls of shadowstuff happening right at the edge of your peripheral vision.
This is in turn supported by the 1e (and before 1e) design that the Shadow Plane exists as a natural opposite of the Prime Material in the same way that the Universe balances all things naturally (negative and positive, etc).
Not a creation of any deity.
It is NOT a carbon copy of the Prime Material, but a shadowy less than exact reflection of the Prime Material which is often distorted, elongated, etc just like shadows IRL.
This is further supported by numerous novels and supplements across all editions.
The question from Gary was about my perspective and that is what I answered. I do not force anybody to see it as I do but it is a good question for this topic as there are multiple ways of looking at it and each of us have to choose his version. I understand Wooly's point but for me Shar is the shadow-stuff.
The topic however is the Shadowdark not Shadow plane in general.
quote:
Originally posted by Sleyvas
What if some areas of the "underdark" that we consider to BE part of the "underdark" are actually IN the "shadowdark". Similarly, there may be portions of the "Underdark" that are actually in the "Feydark". There may be natural transitions that occur in the underdark and people don't truly realize that they've left Toril and travelled to another plane. From a "scientific" standpoint, this might mean that the crust of Toril is less of a swiss cheese of tunnels than people believe.
To give an idea here, there may be POCKETS of the shadowdark that are not accessible from other areas of the shadowfell without literally walking through stone. Similar may exist in the Feydark. Periodically (and by that it could be centuries) these connections may change and these pockets get "resynched" to link into tunnels directly in the shadowdark and Feydark respectively and they become dead ends on Toril (and appearing to be collapsed tunnels).
As an example of this, the 3e city of Sphur Upra from the 3.5 Underdark is a city of gloamings. It could very much fit this. So could Chaulssin, City of Wyrmshadows, and Ringlor Noroth, City of Soaring Shadows. I wouldn't be surprised to find similar type connections with the Maulaugrym.
The form of connection between Underdark and Shadowdark is a big issue here. Your idea is certainly interesting. Only detail that I do not like is that you effectively erase those ovelap areas in original plane - tunnel that lead to Shadowdark is "nonexistent" in Underdark as you cannot walk into it.
I agree they should be connected but as both are changing shape it is hard to imagine how the overlap works.
Right now I still like most the idea that Shadowdark spills into Underdark and that is a reason for the similarity (if you dig a tunnel in Underdark than shadow-stuff from Shadowdark spills into it creating similar tunnel in Shadowdark area). This leaves Shadowdark very unstable (like tunnels in the snow) and usable mainly by creatures that can pass through shadow-stuff or are incorporeal. Shadowdark would then be no place for living but more of a extension of some Underdark locations. I do not see it as bad and it is still a work-in-progress as I am not done poking this idea.
I have checked all three mentioned cities and there is not a word about how it looks outside of the town and only mentions that part of it is in Shadowdark. Those still work OK with my theory (and also yours). |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2019 : 16:58:26
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| But they MAY mirror themselves, but with certain areas being in only one side at a time. For instance, a drow city on Toril may have 6 tunnels leading away from it. One of those six tunnels goes to say an underground lake. That drow city and underground lake may be mirrored on the shadow plane, but with only 5 tunnels, and not the one which would link the lake and the "mirror" of the drow city. Then one day, the tunnel moves to the shadowdark. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
954 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2019 : 22:54:08
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| Gloamings in 3E Underdark are said to have roots in the Plane of Shadow, presumably what is now the Shadowdark and IIRC at least one of their cities is linked to the Shadowfell. This plays nicely with Sleyvas' idea that some areas the Underdark actually are in the Shadowdark. |
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Shadowdark
