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Dargoth
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Australia
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Posted - 25 Apr 2004 :  09:15:01  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic


Does anyone know of any Deep Gnome cities?, other than Blingdenstone (destroyed by the Drow) and the Deep Gnome city under the Galenas mountains in Damara (Which appeared in H2)


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Sarta
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Posted - 25 Apr 2004 :  10:34:19  Show Profile Send Sarta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not off-hand. Those are the only two I've seen made mention of. There have been several mentions that very small groups of deep gnomes have their own settlements, but nothing to indicate that it is more than an extended family.

Sarta
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Lady Kazandra
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Posted - 25 Apr 2004 :  13:32:41  Show Profile  Visit Lady Kazandra's Homepage Send Lady Kazandra a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Indeed, besides those two references just mentioned, the only other Deep Gnome community I know of is the small community of slave gnomes held within Dorn's Deep, from the CRPG Icewind Dale. I know it's not considered canon, but it's the only other deep gnome location that I could find in the material.

"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett
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Dargoth
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Posted - 25 Apr 2004 :  14:13:16  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmm might be a good Question for Ed or maybe Steve S

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Lady Kazandra
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Posted - 25 Apr 2004 :  15:06:33  Show Profile  Visit Lady Kazandra's Homepage Send Lady Kazandra a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Although I'm hesitant to mention it, you might also have a better chance asking on the FR Message Boards at WotC. The larger community that regularly visits those forums might have some ideas.

Do you even still visit those forums Dargoth, I haven't seen you there in a while?.

"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett
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Dargoth
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Posted - 25 Apr 2004 :  15:10:29  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Now and again

since the sillyness with the Novels forum Ive visited the FR boards less frequently, Ive been spending more time on the Mini's board

“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”

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"Its good to be the King!"

Mel Brooks
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Faraer
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3308 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2004 :  15:17:40  Show Profile  Visit Faraer's Homepage Send Faraer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
See also "Hin Nobody Knows" in Dragon #269, which mentions Dolblunde (established in #234), the Deep Realm, and the rumoured kingdom of Aselkor.

I hadn't realized the 'CRPGs aren't canon' meme had got here (if true, it would represent a full-about from the clearly stated policy of TSR).
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Lady Kazandra
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Posted - 25 Apr 2004 :  15:25:30  Show Profile  Visit Lady Kazandra's Homepage Send Lady Kazandra a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually I had always assumed that the CRPGs were part of the established Realms canon. The only reason that I mentioned that Icewind Dale might not be considered canon was because that seemed to be the general consensus of nearly all Realms fans.

Has WotC ever stated otherwise?. I would like to know if they have?.

"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett
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Dargoth
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Posted - 25 Apr 2004 :  15:36:45  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wasnt Dolblunde a city of Surface Gnomes? (I dont think there were any Deep Gnomes there) Also Dolblundes in ruins and Im pretty sure one of the Wyrms of the North livs there now

“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”

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Mel Brooks
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Faraer
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Posted - 25 Apr 2004 :  16:06:05  Show Profile  Visit Faraer's Homepage Send Faraer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The sources aren't clear, though Dolblunde is mentioned in the svirfneblin section of "Hin Nobody Knows". George Krashos's revised North Timeline has it founded 'by several gnome and deep-gnome clans led by Olbrent Handstone' (should be Ulbrent, George!). Yeah, Daurgothoth took up there.

As for the CRPGs, some people theorize their material is non-canonical on the basis of it not turning up in sourcebooks. This argument might be right, but 1. sourcebooks aren't the judge of canonicity any more than any other medium, and 2. the same is true of the events of many novels, including the Baldur's Gate novels, and it was true in 2000 when Jim Butler explicitly stated on REALMS-L that all sources with the Realms logo were canonical.

What does seem to be the case is that WotC has no particular affection or attachment to the games' lore, so doesn't go out of its way to namecheck them -- as is the case with certain novels and sourcebooks too. And maybe the policy is that they're non-canonical now; but it's far from a sure thing, and mostly people repeat that idea because they hear others say it.

Edited by - Faraer on 25 Apr 2004 16:07:19
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Lady Kazandra
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Posted - 25 Apr 2004 :  16:19:51  Show Profile  Visit Lady Kazandra's Homepage Send Lady Kazandra a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you Faraer . Jim Butler's thoughts on this have helped clarify the issue for me. I think I'll just go on assuming that most of the CRPGs are considered canonical, until I feel that the events portrayed in the games conflict with events or historical trends in my own Realms campaign - but I'll decide that on a case-by-case basis.

"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett
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Kuje
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USA
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Posted - 25 Apr 2004 :  16:21:37  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
As for the CRPGs, some people theorize their material is non-canonical on the basis of it not turning up in sourcebooks. This argument might be right, but 1. sourcebooks aren't the judge of canonicity any more than any other medium, and 2. the same is true of the events of many novels, including the Baldur's Gate novels, and it was true in 2000 when Jim Butler explicitly stated on REALMS-L that all sources with the Realms logo were canonical.


I better save that link to use it the next time the "Are the BG novels canon" debate comes back around in another month or two. :)

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

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Lady Kazandra
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Australia
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Posted - 25 Apr 2004 :  16:34:22  Show Profile  Visit Lady Kazandra's Homepage Send Lady Kazandra a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's a good idea Kuje, although I think we should probably stop hi-jacking this thread with chatter that should really belong elsewhere before the wrath of Alaundo is visited upon us all . . .

I know I'm responsible for the off-topicness, so I guess it's only appropriate that I call for a change .

"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett
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Shadowlord
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USA
1298 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2004 :  18:07:21  Show Profile  Visit Shadowlord's Homepage Send Shadowlord a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Now, I'm not sure if it's "canon," since it's a video game, and not a novel, but Faraer seems to have cleared that up.

In Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark, a group of Svirfneblin live in a community called Drearing's Deep.

The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri.
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VEDSICA
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Posted - 25 Apr 2004 :  23:51:54  Show Profile  Visit VEDSICA's Homepage Send VEDSICA a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Shadowlord I was going to say Drearing's Deep

LIFE,BIRTH,BLOOD,DOOM---THE HOLE IN THE GROUND IS COMING ROUND SOON----BLS
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Dargoth
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Australia
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Posted - 26 Apr 2004 :  03:49:47  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The debate about PC games really comes down to Terminology

Official and Canon

I define Official as anything that has the FR logo on it ie the FRC is Official, NWN is Official and the BG series is Official.

Canon on the other hand is something else

Canon is material that has been represented in FR gaming accessorys and has become a part of FR history. The 2 Pool of Radiance games are canon as is the old Curse of the Azure bonds game all have there events reflected in the 3ed FRC. The BG series are NOT canon no 3ed product mentions the events in the series, there is no mention of the Bhaalspawn, there is no mention of a Saradush being destroyed, there is no mention of Sarvok being in the Iron Throne or his attempt to start a war between BG and Amn, in short the BG series never happaned. Then theres Neverwinter nights series

NWN the main game: There is no mention of the plague that occured in the game under the Neverwinter entry in the FRC

Shadows of Undertide: There is no mention of a 2nd Netherse city rising into the air again (even briefly) in the FRC or in the updated timeline in the PGTF

Hordes of the Underdark: Well next year we will get a Waterdeep source book and Im a willin to bet 20 Bucks that there will be absolutely no mention of a certain Arch Devils Rampage through the streets of Waterdeep and the destruction of a large chunk of the city in he Waterdeep Source book.

Does anyone want to take that bet?

The BG series are Official but they are not Canon and neither are the NWN games.

“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”

Emperor Sigismund

"Its good to be the King!"

Mel Brooks
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Lady Kazandra
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Australia
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Posted - 26 Apr 2004 :  03:58:52  Show Profile  Visit Lady Kazandra's Homepage Send Lady Kazandra a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I never thought that the NWN games were canon, so that helps.

I wonder though, about the old SSI games. Did any of the content in those CRPGs have any effect on the FR material?.

"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett
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Dargoth
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Australia
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Posted - 26 Apr 2004 :  04:07:24  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Kazandra

I never thought that the NWN games were canon, so that helps.

I wonder though, about the old SSI games. Did any of the content in those CRPGs have any effect on the FR material?.




Yes

Pool of Radiance happaned, Phlan is today free of Tyranthraxus

Curse of the Azure Bonds happaned there is reference to Dracondos the Red Wizard of Thay you fight in the game under the entery for Hap

Pools of Darkness maybe Canon they left it abit murky in that everyone involved forgot that the events had ever happaned (thanks to Tyr) at least thats what happaned in the Novel of the Game

“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”

Emperor Sigismund

"Its good to be the King!"

Mel Brooks
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Kuje
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USA
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Posted - 26 Apr 2004 :  04:20:30  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Canon on the other hand is something else

Canon is material that has been represented in FR gaming accessorys and has become a part of FR history. The 2 Pool of Radiance games are canon as is the old Curse of the Azure bonds game all have there events reflected in the 3ed FRC. The BG series are NOT canon no 3ed product mentions the events in the series, there is no mention of the Bhaalspawn, there is no mention of a Saradush being destroyed, there is no mention of Sarvok being in the Iron Throne or his attempt to start a war between BG and Amn, in short the BG series never happaned. Then theres Neverwinter nights series

The BG series are Official but they are not Canon and neither are the NWN games.


However the BG novels are canon because Ed wrote a Volo's Guide for them, WOTC has them listed as canon books on thier timeline, and they take place in 1368 and 1369. Dragon had stat'd the BG characters from the novels in 2E. There are more then enough FR accessories that list the BG novels as canon. 3e is NOT the end all be all on what is canon and what is not. :) Unless you don't consider novels, a sourcebook, and Dragon articles canon, which is just silly because all novels except for the Double Diamond Triangle, and maybe Once Around the Realms, are canon and they have been since 1987 when first nonDragon official canon product for FR was printed.

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

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Kuje
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USA
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Posted - 26 Apr 2004 :  04:23:54  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Pools of Darkness maybe Canon they left it abit murky in that everyone involved forgot that the events had ever happaned (thanks to Tyr) at least thats what happaned in the Novel of the Game



Pools of Darkness also happened because those chars were stated up in Heroes Lorebook. :)

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe

Australia
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Posted - 26 Apr 2004 :  04:26:35  Show Profile  Visit Lady Kazandra's Homepage Send Lady Kazandra a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth

quote:
Originally posted by Lady Kazandra

I never thought that the NWN games were canon, so that helps.

I wonder though, about the old SSI games. Did any of the content in those CRPGs have any effect on the FR material?.




Yes

Pool of Radiance happaned, Phlan is today free of Tyranthraxus

Curse of the Azure Bonds happaned there is reference to Dracondos the Red Wizard of Thay you fight in the game under the entery for Hap

Pools of Darkness maybe Canon they left it abit murky in that everyone involved forgot that the events had ever happaned (thanks to Tyr) at least thats what happaned in the Novel of the Game

Yes well, I kind of expected the events of those games to be considered canon. However, I was thinking more in line with the Eye of the Beholder trilogy. Were these considered canon?.

"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett
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Dargoth
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Australia
4607 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2004 :  04:33:00  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I never played them so I cant comment

“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”

Emperor Sigismund

"Its good to be the King!"

Mel Brooks
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Kuje
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USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2004 :  04:33:04  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Kazandra
Yes well, I kind of expected the events of those games to be considered canon. However, I was thinking more in line with the Eye of the Beholder trilogy. Were these considered canon?.


I'd say no since there are no sourcebooks, dragon material, or novels for them. :)

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

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Lady Kazandra
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Posted - 26 Apr 2004 :  04:47:29  Show Profile  Visit Lady Kazandra's Homepage Send Lady Kazandra a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmmn, I thought that the original Eye of the Beholder game would at least be considered. Afterall, aren't you as the player responsible for eradicating the Beholder's criminal empire underneath Waterdeep. I'm sure that little piece of information was mentioned in a timeline somewhere.

"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett
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George Krashos
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Posted - 26 Apr 2004 :  04:48:18  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote


Faraer wrote:
George Krashos's revised North Timeline has it founded 'by several gnome and deep-gnome clans led by Olbrent Handstone' (should be Ulbrent, George!).



Well, no it shouldn't. You see, Olbrent was Ulbrent's dad. It was his son who became a Duke of Phalorm (Fallen Kingdom). I can't believe that you'd think I'd make a typo like that and not pick it up!

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Kuje
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USA
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Posted - 26 Apr 2004 :  05:16:21  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Kazandra

Hmmmn, I thought that the original Eye of the Beholder game would at least be considered. Afterall, aren't you as the player responsible for eradicating the Beholder's criminal empire underneath Waterdeep. I'm sure that little piece of information was mentioned in a timeline somewhere.


I could be wrong because I to have never played them but I was guessing no, because I don't recall any info about those games in the sourcebooks but if you say there is such info then yes they are canon. :)

I'm sorry Dargoth but to think that just because it doesn't show up in a sourcebook doesn't make it canon is a bit silly. :) So then none of the Sembia novels are canon, or Mr. Byer's new novels are not, or neither would be Mr. Baker's new novels either, Elaine's last Liriel book isn't either (since it's not in a sourcebook :)), etc.

This link also that I posted earlier proves that up to at least 2000 that WOTC considered every thing with the FR logo as canon.

http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0003E&L=realms-l&P=R12457


For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

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Edited by - Kuje on 26 Apr 2004 05:20:30
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