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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
32466 Posts

Posted - 04 Oct 2019 :  16:46:04  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley


If you wish than keep your fantasy of Tolkien's elves in the Realms but there is no evidence of them in given lore except for their own viewpoint and tales.



No evidence beyond repeated canonical statements, magic that only they can wield, and the fact that they, unlike any other race, have literally reshaped an entire continent.

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6883 Posts

Posted - 04 Oct 2019 :  17:36:34  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@wrigley... lol, I think you are mistaking me for someone who likes elves. You'd find, reading my other posts, that quite the opposite is true. Endless elf-centric Realmslore is what moved me away from the setting towards Planescape and Darksun.

[/Ayrik]
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3090 Posts

Posted - 04 Oct 2019 :  19:18:28  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley


If you wish than keep your fantasy of Tolkien's elves in the Realms but there is no evidence of them in given lore except for their own viewpoint and tales.



No evidence beyond repeated canonical statements, magic that only they can wield, and the fact that they, unlike any other race, have literally reshaped an entire continent.



While I agree that the elves have been repeatedly stated to be creatures of the Weave, their magical feats aren't anything unique. The Imaskari blocked an entire effing pantheon, including greater deities, from accessing Toril, until Ao itself decided to intervene. I'd say that's a bigger feat than causing a cataclysm to get your pretty paradise island, yet the Imaskari were but humans.

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Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
555 Posts

Posted - 04 Oct 2019 :  21:19:52  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley


If you wish than keep your fantasy of Tolkien's elves in the Realms but there is no evidence of them in given lore except for their own viewpoint and tales.



No evidence beyond repeated canonical statements, magic that only they can wield, and the fact that they, unlike any other race, have literally reshaped an entire continent.


Sure but think about this - Ed himself told us many times that most of the books are written from perspective of biased narrative so almost all books about elves are from elven POV. Also we all count into canon books where characters proclaim things that are not true or partialy true. Same goes for lore as we all know they usualy say only half of it.
You should not take literaly all that is written as a FR product and I would have hoped you of all should know that Master of Mischief.
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
555 Posts

Posted - 04 Oct 2019 :  21:22:25  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

@wrigley... lol, I think you are mistaking me for someone who likes elves. You'd find, reading my other posts, that quite the opposite is true. Endless elf-centric Realmslore is what moved me away from the setting towards Planescape and Darksun.


I am used to that from other settings. If you read carefully enough than you could see a lot of dark things slipping among their propaganda.
BTW have you read Witcher books? There are my kind of elves...
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
32466 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2019 :  02:40:22  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley


If you wish than keep your fantasy of Tolkien's elves in the Realms but there is no evidence of them in given lore except for their own viewpoint and tales.



No evidence beyond repeated canonical statements, magic that only they can wield, and the fact that they, unlike any other race, have literally reshaped an entire continent.


Sure but think about this - Ed himself told us many times that most of the books are written from perspective of biased narrative so almost all books about elves are from elven POV. Also we all count into canon books where characters proclaim things that are not true or partialy true. Same goes for lore as we all know they usualy say only half of it.
You should not take literaly all that is written as a FR product and I would have hoped you of all should know that Master of Mischief.



On the contrary -- I take what is written as true unless there is specific reason to doubt it. Because otherwise, we have to doubt everything, and in doing so, not really know anything about the setting. If nothing is true, then there is no point to bothering to read any of it.

So the things that have no apparent bias -- like the multiple books that speak of elven arrogance and failures, but also of their wondrous accomplishments -- I assume to be true, because there is no reason to assume otherwise.

Personal dislike for something leading to a dismissal of facts shows far more of a bias than something with a demonstrably objective PoV.

I can't stand Karsus, and I maintain that it was pure foolishness and pride, entirely on his part, that destroyed Netheril -- but I do not let this blind me to the fact that he had many noteworthy accomplishments, and that even at the height of his folly, he still ascended to heights that remain unmatched by mortals since then. He was perhaps the greatest fool the setting has ever seen -- but he was also the greatest fool the setting has ever seen!

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LordofBones
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963 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2019 :  12:29:33  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"Tolkien elves" are undisputed awesome. Just look at Fingolfin.

It's just that the term has become diluted into the typical pointy-eared fantasy elves, when Tolkien's Eldar were fascinating in both strength and hubris. Just look at Feanor, who so despised Morgoth that he damned his entire lineage to an oath that condemned his sons to death and worse.
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Wrigley
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Czech Republic
555 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2019 :  13:26:57  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
On the contrary -- I take what is written as true unless there is specific reason to doubt it. Because otherwise, we have to doubt everything, and in doing so, not really know anything about the setting. If nothing is true, then there is no point to bothering to read any of it.

So the things that have no apparent bias -- like the multiple books that speak of elven arrogance and failures, but also of their wondrous accomplishments -- I assume to be true, because there is no reason to assume otherwise.

Personal dislike for something leading to a dismissal of facts shows far more of a bias than something with a demonstrably objective PoV.

I can't stand Karsus, and I maintain that it was pure foolishness and pride, entirely on his part, that destroyed Netheril -- but I do not let this blind me to the fact that he had many noteworthy accomplishments, and that even at the height of his folly, he still ascended to heights that remain unmatched by mortals since then. He was perhaps the greatest fool the setting has ever seen -- but he was also the greatest fool the setting has ever seen!


I do not say nothing is true. I am just saying to take written lore with a grain of salt. They do not lie but certainly they tell only part of the true fact and you have to keep reading to get closer to what has really happened.
So they say elves are magical creatures - they came from planes - check
They say only elves can cast high magic - and they do almost anything to keep it that way - check
multiple elven source confirm their statement - "circle confirmation" from the same source=propaganda - check
elves are good - any time elves do horrible thing there is always a scrapegoat - check

"Personal dislike for something leading to a dismissal of facts" if this should be aimed at me than there are two parts of that. First is my own understanding of lore based on multiple sources and "reading between the lines". Second is conscious choice to ignore parts of the lore a using different version for my realms. I am always trying to separate the two and point to "made up stuff" in my posts here.

If someone told a story of Karsus, the greatest wizard of all time who tried to save the world by his spell but was set up by demon corruption that made his spell into such catastrophe - than we have similarity to elven story.
I have never said they did not work those spells. In fact I maintain that it was pure foolishness and pride, that destroyed elven kingdoms.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
32466 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2019 :  17:09:49  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
On the contrary -- I take what is written as true unless there is specific reason to doubt it. Because otherwise, we have to doubt everything, and in doing so, not really know anything about the setting. If nothing is true, then there is no point to bothering to read any of it.

So the things that have no apparent bias -- like the multiple books that speak of elven arrogance and failures, but also of their wondrous accomplishments -- I assume to be true, because there is no reason to assume otherwise.

Personal dislike for something leading to a dismissal of facts shows far more of a bias than something with a demonstrably objective PoV.

I can't stand Karsus, and I maintain that it was pure foolishness and pride, entirely on his part, that destroyed Netheril -- but I do not let this blind me to the fact that he had many noteworthy accomplishments, and that even at the height of his folly, he still ascended to heights that remain unmatched by mortals since then. He was perhaps the greatest fool the setting has ever seen -- but he was also the greatest fool the setting has ever seen!


I do not say nothing is true. I am just saying to take written lore with a grain of salt. They do not lie but certainly they tell only part of the true fact and you have to keep reading to get closer to what has really happened.
So they say elves are magical creatures - they came from planes - check
They say only elves can cast high magic - and they do almost anything to keep it that way - check
multiple elven source confirm their statement - "circle confirmation" from the same source=propaganda - check
elves are good - any time elves do horrible thing there is always a scrapegoat - check

"Personal dislike for something leading to a dismissal of facts" if this should be aimed at me than there are two parts of that. First is my own understanding of lore based on multiple sources and "reading between the lines". Second is conscious choice to ignore parts of the lore a using different version for my realms. I am always trying to separate the two and point to "made up stuff" in my posts here.

If someone told a story of Karsus, the greatest wizard of all time who tried to save the world by his spell but was set up by demon corruption that made his spell into such catastrophe - than we have similarity to elven story.
I have never said they did not work those spells. In fact I maintain that it was pure foolishness and pride, that destroyed elven kingdoms.



Ah, but you are wrong in one of your statements:
quote:
multiple elven source confirm their statement - "circle confirmation" from the same source=propaganda - check


It's not just elven sources that say elves are part of the Weave, and limits High Magic to them, and speaks of them shattering a continent. Which means it is not circle confirmation and it is not propaganda. Dismissing it as such is proof of a bias.

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Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
555 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2019 :  22:33:32  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
OK who else was on Faerun during time of Crown Wars that we have any information from?
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1890 Posts

Posted - 06 Oct 2019 :  01:24:49  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan


While I agree that the elves have been repeatedly stated to be creatures of the Weave, their magical feats aren't anything unique. The Imaskari blocked an entire effing pantheon, including greater deities, from accessing Toril

What it got to do with the elves, and their High Magic being unique? Nobody claimed the Imaskari emulated High Magic for this.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
32466 Posts

Posted - 06 Oct 2019 :  05:25:01  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan


While I agree that the elves have been repeatedly stated to be creatures of the Weave, their magical feats aren't anything unique. The Imaskari blocked an entire effing pantheon, including greater deities, from accessing Toril

What it got to do with the elves, and their High Magic being unique? Nobody claimed the Imaskari emulated High Magic for this.



I've long thought the Imaskari blocking deities from Toril was somewhat overrated.

Okay, it is an impressive feat... But -- those deities did not have a presence in Realmspace. They were, therefore, relatively powerless -- they had less ability to do anything in Realmspace than local demipowers did. Ao hadn't allowed those deities in, at that point.

So those deities, though greater powers elsewhere, had no ability to do anything in the Realms. The Imaskari barrier reinforced this, more than anything else. They weren't blocking the full might of those deities -- they were blocking communications with them.

In essence, the Imaskari were boarding up the only window in an already locked door.

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6883 Posts

Posted - 06 Oct 2019 :  08:01:17  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Look at it from the opposite perspective - that of a deity wishing to gain access to the Realms.
The deity needs to establish a faith and presence before actually being able to draw any sustenance or manifest any power. The deity's proxies, priests, clerics, and other faithful must somehow find their own way to the Realms (with little or no access to any of their deity's divine magics, spells, and powers), build their temples, and spread the faith to a substantial body of worshippers. They'd probably need to be epic champion sorts just to accomplish such deeds, it's gotta be hard to recruit followers to the promises of an unknown god when so many known gods already grant miracles (through their clergy) on a daily basis.

Stopping all this from happening can't be too difficult for a competent nation of powerful mages. Kill the interlopers, deny them access, turn the people (and their priests, and their gods) against them. Don't give that tree a chance to grow tall, kick it down, stomp on it, and poison the dirt at every opportunity.

Tyr is a prominent example of a foreign deity who invited himself in. Surrounded by the vanguard of a mighty celestial army, he brought an impressive (supernatural) legion of faith with him, he battered his way in with unstoppable force. Not unlike those ghetto deities the Imaskari could've easily bounced out while caught skulking through the back door.

[/Ayrik]
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3090 Posts

Posted - 06 Oct 2019 :  14:21:14  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan


While I agree that the elves have been repeatedly stated to be creatures of the Weave, their magical feats aren't anything unique. The Imaskari blocked an entire effing pantheon, including greater deities, from accessing Toril

What it got to do with the elves, and their High Magic being unique? Nobody claimed the Imaskari emulated High Magic for this.



It was about the claim that the feat of separating an island from a continent was indicative of elven magical superiority, or uniqueness.

That said, I've never really understood what defines High Magic. Yeah, it's ritual magic capable of impressive feats, but that's essentially the same as certain kinds of human magic. The only meaningful difference that I see is that HM requires the intervention of the elven gods, when used to create really powerful effects.

Idk, to me, the difference seems really arbitrary and vague. It's just "only the elves can do this", not something solid, like "this magic can produce X effect, while other kinds of magic can't", or "this magic comes from that source".

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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3090 Posts

Posted - 06 Oct 2019 :  14:30:03  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan


While I agree that the elves have been repeatedly stated to be creatures of the Weave, their magical feats aren't anything unique. The Imaskari blocked an entire effing pantheon, including greater deities, from accessing Toril

What it got to do with the elves, and their High Magic being unique? Nobody claimed the Imaskari emulated High Magic for this.



I've long thought the Imaskari blocking deities from Toril was somewhat overrated.

Okay, it is an impressive feat... But -- those deities did not have a presence in Realmspace. They were, therefore, relatively powerless -- they had less ability to do anything in Realmspace than local demipowers did. Ao hadn't allowed those deities in, at that point.

So those deities, though greater powers elsewhere, had no ability to do anything in the Realms. The Imaskari barrier reinforced this, more than anything else. They weren't blocking the full might of those deities -- they were blocking communications with them.

In essence, the Imaskari were boarding up the only window in an already locked door.



The Imaskari basically brought an entire people from another world. As soon as that happened, their gods gained a presence in Realmspace, due to worship. It's like the arrival of the elves on Toril; they simply brought their gods with them; there's no mention of Ao needing to allow the Seldarine in first, so why should the Mulhorandi gods need to be?

Plus, if the Seldarine can benefit from the power due to worship by their people in other worlds, why wouldn't the same be true for the Mulhorandi pantheon?

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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3090 Posts

Posted - 06 Oct 2019 :  14:30:04  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan


While I agree that the elves have been repeatedly stated to be creatures of the Weave, their magical feats aren't anything unique. The Imaskari blocked an entire effing pantheon, including greater deities, from accessing Toril

What it got to do with the elves, and their High Magic being unique? Nobody claimed the Imaskari emulated High Magic for this.



I've long thought the Imaskari blocking deities from Toril was somewhat overrated.

Okay, it is an impressive feat... But -- those deities did not have a presence in Realmspace. They were, therefore, relatively powerless -- they had less ability to do anything in Realmspace than local demipowers did. Ao hadn't allowed those deities in, at that point.

So those deities, though greater powers elsewhere, had no ability to do anything in the Realms. The Imaskari barrier reinforced this, more than anything else. They weren't blocking the full might of those deities -- they were blocking communications with them.

In essence, the Imaskari were boarding up the only window in an already locked door.



The Imaskari basically brought an entire people from another world. As soon as that happened, their gods gained a presence in Realmspace, due to worship. It's like the arrival of the elves on Toril; they simply brought their gods with them; there's no mention of Ao needing to allow the Seldarine in first, so why shouldn't the same be true for the Mulhorandi gods?

Plus, if the Seldarine can benefit from the power gained from worship by their people in other worlds, why wouldn't the same be true for the Mulhorandi pantheon?

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 06 Oct 2019 14:31:03
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
32466 Posts

Posted - 06 Oct 2019 :  15:36:41  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert



I've long thought the Imaskari blocking deities from Toril was somewhat overrated.

Okay, it is an impressive feat... But -- those deities did not have a presence in Realmspace. They were, therefore, relatively powerless -- they had less ability to do anything in Realmspace than local demipowers did. Ao hadn't allowed those deities in, at that point.

So those deities, though greater powers elsewhere, had no ability to do anything in the Realms. The Imaskari barrier reinforced this, more than anything else. They weren't blocking the full might of those deities -- they were blocking communications with them.

In essence, the Imaskari were boarding up the only window in an already locked door.



The Imaskari basically brought an entire people from another world. As soon as that happened, their gods gained a presence in Realmspace, due to worship. It's like the arrival of the elves on Toril; they simply brought their gods with them; there's no mention of Ao needing to allow the Seldarine in first, so why shouldn't the same be true for the Mulhorandi gods?

Plus, if the Seldarine can benefit from the power gained from worship by their people in other worlds, why wouldn't the same be true for the Mulhorandi pantheon?



Just because it's not explicitly written that Ao invited the Seldarine in doesn't mean it didn't happen.

And having a presence in Realmspace and having power in Realmspace is not the same thing. How much power the deities in question hold elsewhere is immaterial. Boccob is a power in Greyspace, and there's been plenty of traffic between Greyspace and Realmspace -- but Boccob is not a deity of magic in the Realms.

Ao decides who has power in Realmspace. That's it -- that's the prime rule among deities in Realmspace. If Ao doesn't let you in, you're out. And if you're out, you do not have power in Realmspace.

It's like a national border. A person could be king or president of their land. They step into another nation, they have only the authority that the leader of that nation grants them -- if any. King Azoun IV can't step into Waterdeep and start telling the Lords or nobles what to do, and in Cormyr, Vangey would have every legal right to tell Khelben Arunsun where to stick it.

So the Imaskari barrier was not a case of going to Suzail and telling Azoun IV he had no power there -- it was going to Waterdeep and telling Azoun he'd not be allowed into the city.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 06 Oct 2019 15:38:52
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3090 Posts

Posted - 06 Oct 2019 :  16:06:49  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The difference between Boccob and the Mulhorandi is that Boccob doesn't have worshipers in FR; the Mulhorandi gained them as soon as the Imaskari borught their people in, so while their influence on the Realms was limited to the worshipers, their power as entities (and therefore their ability to resist the barrier) came from all their worship.

Look at it from this perspective: if Ao hadn't allowed the Mulhorandi gods in before the barrier was erected, then they would have had no power on Toril, and the Imaskari barrier would have been entirely pointless, since the Mulhorandi couldn't have done anything anyway. If the Imaskari erected the barrier, it means that those gods already had power in Realmspace, and could have posed a threat. Going by what you say, it means that Ao had already allowed them in, and the barrier was erected to prevent them from affecting Toril despite that (until AOointevened to correct that).

Also, assuming that the barrier was erected before Ao granted the Mulhorandi gods a permission to act on Toril, and that all it took to break it was Ao's greenlighting them, then the barrier would be pointless anyway, because it was blocking literally nothing (since the gods weren't able to act anyway).

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
32466 Posts

Posted - 06 Oct 2019 :  16:53:21  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

The difference between Boccob and the Mulhorandi is that Boccob doesn't have worshipers in FR; the Mulhorandi gained them as soon as the Imaskari borught their people in, so while their influence on the Realms was limited to the worshipers, their power as entities (and therefore their ability to resist the barrier) came from all their worship.

Look at it from this perspective: if Ao hadn't allowed the Mulhorandi gods in before the barrier was erected, then they would have had no power on Toril, and the Imaskari barrier would have been entirely pointless, since the Mulhorandi couldn't have done anything anyway. If the Imaskari erected the barrier, it means that those gods already had power in Realmspace, and could have posed a threat. Going by what you say, it means that Ao had already allowed them in, and the barrier was erected to prevent them from affecting Toril despite that (until AOointevened to correct that).

Also, assuming that the barrier was erected before Ao granted the Mulhorandi gods a permission to act on Toril, and that all it took to break it was Ao's greenlighting them, then the barrier would be pointless anyway, because it was blocking literally nothing (since the gods weren't able to act anyway).



You know for a fact that Boccob has no followers in the Realms, despite the fact that there's been enough traffic between the settings for Mordenkainen's and Bigby's spells to be known in the Realms?

And Ao didn't allow the Mulhorandi deities in until after they sent avatars through wildspace to get there. If they had been allowed in before that, they wouldn't have had to do that.

That's my point: the Mulhorandi deities may have had some worship in the Realms, but they were not deities of the Realms until Ao let them in. At the time that the Imaskari raised their barrier, they were raising it against deities that had no power in the setting because they had not been allowed in.

Worship in the setting does not give power in the setting. It's explicitly detailed in Spelljammer lore: any cleric can get 2nd level spells, anywhere -- but if their deity isn't worshipped in the sphere, and doesn't have an agreement with a local deity, then they can't get anything more unless they use the Contact Home Power spell to call home. And even that only gives the cleric their normal abilities -- it doesn't make their power a power of that sphere.

The Imaskari were not fighting the full power of the Mulhorandi deities, because the deities couldn't bring their full power to bear, because they were not deities of the Realms.

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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3090 Posts

Posted - 06 Oct 2019 :  18:05:04  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

The difference between Boccob and the Mulhorandi is that Boccob doesn't have worshipers in FR; the Mulhorandi gained them as soon as the Imaskari borught their people in, so while their influence on the Realms was limited to the worshipers, their power as entities (and therefore their ability to resist the barrier) came from all their worship.

Look at it from this perspective: if Ao hadn't allowed the Mulhorandi gods in before the barrier was erected, then they would have had no power on Toril, and the Imaskari barrier would have been entirely pointless, since the Mulhorandi couldn't have done anything anyway. If the Imaskari erected the barrier, it means that those gods already had power in Realmspace, and could have posed a threat. Going by what you say, it means that Ao had already allowed them in, and the barrier was erected to prevent them from affecting Toril despite that (until AOointevened to correct that).

Also, assuming that the barrier was erected before Ao granted the Mulhorandi gods a permission to act on Toril, and that all it took to break it was Ao's greenlighting them, then the barrier would be pointless anyway, because it was blocking literally nothing (since the gods weren't able to act anyway).



You know for a fact that Boccob has no followers in the Realms, despite the fact that there's been enough traffic between the settings for Mordenkainen's and Bigby's spells to be known in the Realms?

And Ao didn't allow the Mulhorandi deities in until after they sent avatars through wildspace to get there. If they had been allowed in before that, they wouldn't have had to do that.

That's my point: the Mulhorandi deities may have had some worship in the Realms, but they were not deities of the Realms until Ao let them in. At the time that the Imaskari raised their barrier, they were raising it against deities that had no power in the setting because they had not been allowed in.

Worship in the setting does not give power in the setting. It's explicitly detailed in Spelljammer lore: any cleric can get 2nd level spells, anywhere -- but if their deity isn't worshipped in the sphere, and doesn't have an agreement with a local deity, then they can't get anything more unless they use the Contact Home Power spell to call home. And even that only gives the cleric their normal abilities -- it doesn't make their power a power of that sphere.

The Imaskari were not fighting the full power of the Mulhorandi deities, because the deities couldn't bring their full power to bear, because they were not deities of the Realms.



If Boccob has some following in FR, it's really small. The Imaskari enslaved a people; they brought in more than 100k people.

The thing is, the Imaskari barrier bloacked any kind of Mulhorandi divine magic, which would include even the "Contact Home Power" spell, which also supports that the barrier was able to affect greater powers.

Setting that aside, the Imaskari barrier was stated multiple times to have indeed blocked the pantheon, and that Ao's intervention mostly allowed the mortal manifestations of the Mulhorandi gods to cross the barrier. This suggests that Ao had already allowed them in, and that the barrier indeed blocked them at their full power.

In fact, if all he needed to do to break the barrier was allowing the Mulhorandi in, and if his intervention was, as you suggest, merely the act of greenlighting them, there would have been no need to recur to the manifestations. The Mulhorandi gods could have acted normally, like the other pantheons, by granting spells and sending avatars, rather than forcing themselves in such a situation.

From the text in the 3e FRCS, it also sounds like Ao did something unusual to let the manifestations in, and that they entered (thanks to Ao) through "alternative paths", suggesting that the barrier was actually really effective, and that even an overgod wasn't able to allow the Mulhorandi gods to act normally, but had to create a way to circumvent the barrier.

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Edited by - Irennan on 06 Oct 2019 18:09:02
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 06 Oct 2019 :  19:19:15  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan


If Boccob has some following in FR, it's really small. The Imaskari enslaved a people; they brought in more than 100k people.


There's enough traffic for those spells to be on a lot of spell lists. That means that there is enough traffic for any one of the Greyhawk deities to have at least a small following in the sphere -- if they were allowed in.

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

The thing is, the Imaskari barrier bloacked any kind of Mulhorandi divine magic, which would include even the "Contact Home Power" spell, which also supports that the barrier was able to affect greater powers.


No, it meant that 2nd level spells cast by mortals -- assuming they even knew those spells -- were being blocked.

Blocking calls does not make you a phone company.

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Setting that aside, the Imaskari barrier was stated multiple times to have indeed blocked the pantheon, and that Ao's intervention mostly allowed the mortal manifestations of the Mulhorandi gods to cross the barrier. This suggests that Ao had already allowed them in, and that the barrier indeed blocked them at their full power.


If the barrier blocked them, it meant they were not there. Therefore, they were not at full strength and able to bring all their divine might to bear. Which means the Imaskari were not blocking the full power of the pantheon, since it wasn't there to block.

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

In fact, if all he needed to do to break the barrier was allowing the Mulhorandi in, and if his intervention was, as you suggest, merely the act of greenlighting them, there would have been no need to recur to the manifestations. The Mulhorandi gods could have acted normally, like the other pantheons, by granting spells and sending avatars, rather than forcing themselves in such a situation.


We don't know why Ao acted the way he did, in this matter. We know that he did, though.

The Mulhorandi deities did not have access to the sphere, and Ao made them work for it.

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

From the text in the 3e FRCS, it also sounds like Ao did something unusual to let the manifestations in, and that they entered (thanks to Ao) through "alternative paths", suggesting that the barrier was actually really effective, and that even an overgod wasn't able to allow the Mulhorandi gods to act normally, but had to create a way to circumvent the barrier.



So what you're saying, then, is that the guy who could simultaneously kick all of the gods out of the heavens and demote them to avatars -- including the deity of magic -- could somehow not overcome mortal magic? Even though he can demote Mystra, and Mystra can strip magic from the Imaskari with barely a twitch of her finger, Ao somehow couldn't overcome the Imaskari?

No. Does not compute.

It comes down to what I said before: the Mulhorandi had no power in the Realms, and the Imaskari cut off communications to them. That's it. It was not a case of the Imaskari being more powerful than the Mulhorandi -- because once the Mulhorandi deities sent their incarnations in, they kicked serious Imaskari butt.

This proves that the Imaskari could not stand up to the might of the Mulhorandi deities.

And it further proves that the Mulhorandi deities were powerless in the Realms before then, because they weren't present in the setting to bring such power to bear.

Thus, the Imaskari barrier did not block the full strength of the Mulhorandi pantheon. It merely kept them from being able to get a toehold in the setting.

Unless you've got some explanation for how the Imaskari were both able to block the full power of a pantheon and yet not able to withstand part of the power of that pantheon, then you have to admit that the Imaskari barrier was not blocking the full power of the Mulhorandi deities. It can't be both ways.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 06 Oct 2019 19:19:54
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Wrigley
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My take on this:
After Imaskari transplanted Mulhorandi people, their deities had been granted access to the Toril. However Imaskari made a large scale version of Dimensional Anchor spell that barred any planar interaction into their realm - it was only around central Imaskari empire. In this envelope no planar effect would work and there was not possible to communicate between the planes nor send any avatar or planar. Also their spells did not work inside so even gods were not able to dispell it. Common planars were also barred physical access and as Mulhorandi gods found out nothing short of full presence will not get inside. So they made a ship and with it they arrived to Imaskari shores. From there they went saving their people but somehow was not able to destroy the barrier even from inside. That is why they destroyed Imaskari land inside totaly (Purple desert) and told their people to settle just outside in Skuld and West of it.
In this limited fashion I do not contradict lore, magic of Imaskari seems more feasible and still not allow gods in enough so they have to walk there.

The same however goes for elves I do not see Sundering being more than tsunami from displaced ocean by Evermeet island (afaik there is only very vague description that is affected time in both ways). Both Dracorage and Descent were powerful curse targeted on whole race, second one being even more powerful than first. Those I explain by added power of Seldarine who boosted both rituals. In those rituals elves used mass sacrifices (voluntary) as they do to this day in important rituals so it could be said that elves use blood magic :-D to boost their effects.
I still do not see any reason that anybody with enough knowledge, skills and resources can do the same effects (except Mystra's Ban but that works also on elves).
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Irennan
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Posted - 06 Oct 2019 :  21:09:06  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

There's enough traffic for those spells to be on a lot of spell lists. That means that there is enough traffic for any one of the Greyhawk deities to have at least a small following in the sphere -- if they were allowed in.


Spells making into spell lists doesn't necessarily imply the presence of followers in the Realms. Elminster and other mind-hopping mages might have simply put those spells in circulation. But yeah, GH deities might very well have small followings in the Realms, my point simply was that the Imaskari shifted an entire people. And yes, I see that having followers in the Realms is not enough for a deity to be a power in the sphere; what I'm saying is that, once the Mulhorandi gods were in, they had a massive following.

quote:


No, it meant that 2nd level spells cast by mortals -- assuming they even knew those spells -- were being blocked.

Blocking calls does not make you a phone company.

If the barrier blocked them, it meant they were not there. Therefore, they were not at full strength and able to bring all their divine might to bear. Which means the Imaskari were not blocking the full power of the pantheon, since it wasn't there to block.


The barrier was stated to block prayers, true, but also to block the gods' possibility to intervene.

As for the other point, it means that those gods were there, but were prevented from acting on Toril due to the barrier. But, I mean, I'm not the one saying it; it's stated very clearly in many canonical sources that the Imaskari did indeed block the pantheon, and that Ao had to intervene and grant the Mulhorandi gods the ability to act on Toril--through an alternative way.

It doesn't say that the Mulhorandi gods were on standby due to not having access and the Imaskari were just blocking what little power the Mulhorandi people could muster, then Ao allowed them in; it says that Ao intervened to help them cross the barrier, which is an entirely different matter.

The fact that they still couldn't act normally after that is also prof of the barrier's efficiency.

quote:
We don't know why Ao acted the way he did, in this matter. We know that he did, though.

The Mulhorandi deities did not have access to the sphere, and Ao made them work for it.


And, once again, the sources state that the Mulhorandi gods were blocked by the Imaskari, which is different from merely not having access (in fact, if they didn't have access, there was nothing to block to begin with), and that they were able to send manifestations thanks to Ao's intervention, not merely for his decision to allow them in.

I mean, I recognize that your interpreatation also makes sense, but so does the one immediately suggested by the way the sources are formulated.

quote:


So what you're saying, then, is that the guy who could simultaneously kick all of the gods out of the heavens and demote them to avatars -- including the deity of magic -- could somehow not overcome mortal magic? Even though he can demote Mystra, and Mystra can strip magic from the Imaskari with barely a twitch of her finger, Ao somehow couldn't overcome the Imaskari?

No. Does not compute.

It comes down to what I said before: the Mulhorandi had no power in the Realms, and the Imaskari cut off communications to them. That's it. It was not a case of the Imaskari being more powerful than the Mulhorandi -- because once the Mulhorandi deities sent their incarnations in, they kicked serious Imaskari butt.

This proves that the Imaskari could not stand up to the might of the Mulhorandi deities.

And it further proves that the Mulhorandi deities were powerless in the Realms before then, because they weren't present in the setting to bring such power to bear.

Thus, the Imaskari barrier did not block the full strength of the Mulhorandi pantheon. It merely kept them from being able to get a toehold in the setting.

Unless you've got some explanation for how the Imaskari were both able to block the full power of a pantheon and yet not able to withstand part of the power of that pantheon, then you have to admit that the Imaskari barrier was not blocking the full power of the Mulhorandi deities. It can't be both ways.



Power isn't just direct battles. The Imaskari's signature magic was portal magic, travels and barriers between worlds, etc... Their proficiency in that kind of magic could have been enough to block greater powers, but their prowess in battle magic might have been inferior to that (which isn't to say that it wasn't impressive anyway, but definitely not up the power of a pantheon). This is actually a common trope in fiction (the smart guy defeating the powerful guy through tricks and stuff).

As for Ao, he did overcome the Imaskari magic, by giving the Mulhorandi an alternative path circumventing it. That's what the 3e FRCS says (something along the lines of "thanks to Ao's intervvention, the Mulhorandi gods could send their manifestations and cross the barrier through alternative paths"). But I admit I have exaggerated by stating that even he had to work around it; nothing was said about the entity of his effort, and creating an alternative path around a barrier is indeed a way to circumvent the barrier.

That said, I'll echo your point about Ao's intentions being unknwon. Ao's known for not interfering with mortals, so he might have granted a way to the Mulhorandi gods to still affect Toril, without undoing the Imaskari's achievements (I'm referring to the barrier, not slavery, ofc) that blocked them from acting like gods normally would (basically to give the Imaskari a fighting chance?)



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Edited by - Irennan on 06 Oct 2019 21:22:04
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 07 Oct 2019 :  02:31:03  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

It was about the claim that the feat of separating an island from a continent was indicative of elven magical superiority, or uniqueness.

Which is the entire issue. Confusing "superiority" and "uniqueness", that is.
quote:
That said, I've never really understood what defines High Magic.

A specific tradition. Methods of which are inherently unusable for anyone who isn't an intact (magic-wise) elf, including those who already used it back when they were eligible (dark elves changed to drow, and even "burned out" High Mages).
quote:
but that's essentially the same as certain kinds of human magic.
And this applies to the dragon magic even more. Still, those spells cannot be used by anyone who isn't a dragon as is, even if most can be analysed and emulated - as higher-level spells, and usually with more than V component.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 07 Oct 2019 :  03:15:37  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan



The barrier was stated to block prayers, true, but also to block the gods' possibility to intervene.


Their ability to intervene wasn't blocked by the Imaskari -- the Mulhorandi gods literally could not intervene in the Realms, because they were powerless there.

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

As for the other point, it means that those gods were there, but were prevented from acting on Toril due to the barrier. But, I mean, I'm not the one saying it; it's stated very clearly in many canonical sources that the Imaskari did indeed block the pantheon, and that Ao had to intervene and grant the Mulhorandi gods the ability to act on Toril--through an alternative way.


They blocked the gods by not allowing them to communicate with their worshippers, and thus not have any influence in the Realms. It was as I said earlier -- the Imaskari boarded up a window on an already locked door. The Mulhorandi deities couldn't act in the Realms without being worshipped there, and the Imaskari made sure the worship wasn't getting to them. They blocked the call.

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

It doesn't say that the Mulhorandi gods were on standby due to not having access and the Imaskari were just blocking what little power the Mulhorandi people could muster, then Ao allowed them in; it says that Ao intervened to help them cross the barrier, which is an entirely different matter.


It doesn't have to say that because it is canon that deities without worship in the Realmspace are effectively powerless there. It doesn't matter how powerful a deity is elsewhere, in the Realms, it's tied to how much worship they get.

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

The fact that they still couldn't act normally after that is also prof of the barrier's efficiency.


No, it merely reinforces that they were not deities of the Realms.

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

And, once again, the sources state that the Mulhorandi gods were blocked by the Imaskari, which is different from merely not having access (in fact, if they didn't have access, there was nothing to block to begin with), and that they were able to send manifestations thanks to Ao's intervention, not merely for his decision to allow them in.


We're going in circles, here. The Mulhorandi deites were blocked by the fact that they were not receiving worship. That's it.

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Power isn't just direct battles. The Imaskari's signature magic was portal magic, travels and barriers between worlds, etc... Their proficiency in that kind of magic could have been enough to block greater powers, but their prowess in battle magic might have been inferior to that (which isn't to say that it wasn't impressive anyway, but definitely not up the power of a pantheon). This is actually a common trope in fiction (the smart guy defeating the powerful guy through tricks and stuff).


I seriously doubt that the Imaskari became a powerful magical empire without knowing some battle magic.

Even if, by some freak mishap, they didn't know any battle magic at all, if they were so powerful to block the full might of the Mulhorandi pantheon, they could have simply opened more portals and sent the incarnations elsewhere. Boom, problem solved.

The fact that they didn't do that, or otherwise defeat these lesser versions of the gods, proves they were not stronger than those deities, and thus could not have stood up to their full might.

And if they couldn't stand up to the full might of those deities, it means their barrier was not holding off that full might. The reason it wasn't was because the deities had no power in the Realms because they weren't receiving any worship from there -- and that's because that's all the barrier was doing.

It's canon, in just about every source that pertains to deities, that worship is power in the Realms, and that deities die without it. That's why that was all the Imaskari had to do.

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