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shades of eternity
Learned Scribe
288 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Sep 2019 : 04:08:43
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I just found out that smoke powder is more or less a no go in the dmsguild.
When I picked up forgotten realms adventure, I distinctly remember a list of firearms, including the ribald.
So I guess I'm asking for fun.
Smoke Powder - yay or nay and if yay, where and with what?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2019 : 05:12:50
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quote:
Originally posted by shades of eternity
I just found out that smoke powder is more or less a no go in the dmsguild.
When I picked up forgotten realms adventure, I distinctly remember a list of firearms, including the ribald.
So I guess I'm asking for fun.
Smoke Powder - yay or nay and if yay, where and with what?
I don't want it in my Realms. Yes, it is canon, but I don't think it is a good fit.
I'm not adverse to firearms in D&D -- I played a gun mage in Pathfinder, and had a hell of a lot of fun with it. It is something that depends on the setting, though. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2019 : 08:45:45
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Smokepowder weapons were introduced (along with a sort of rough timeline for their appearance and some other new stuff) in Forgotten Realms Adventures - this was basically the 2E update to the 1E FR0 (and a true 2E version of FR0 didn't come out until just before 3E,lol). No doubt these descriptions have been reprinted (and changed) many times in subsequent Realmslore products.
Yay or Nay is already decided if you adhere to published Realmslore because smokepowdet is already present and documented in the setting. It's already mixed into the flavour, like it or not, so the real question is quantity instead of quality. Maybe only epic units can obtain smokepowder stuff, maybe it's so common that every guard (and perhaps every goblin) could obtain a working firearm without any sort of heroic effort.
Yay or Nay is a question of you do your own Realms. But it doesn't really seem like a game-defining or game-breaking one. Smokepowder manufacture and distribution is basically controlled by the Church of Gond, some scummy merchants in Amn, and maybe some variants created by Red Wizards or imported by spelljammers or found in exotic Shou, etc. Which is to say that smokepowder and smokepowder weapons are always limited supply, always somewhat costly, not likely to dominate warfare where crossbows or catapults or wizards could be used instead.
Players could abuse smokepowder, stockpile vast arsenals of the stuff... If the DM allows it... If it doesn't somehow get blown up first... otherwise I don't personally see any real issue with it. It hasn't been used to make armies invincible. It hasn't blown anything off the map. It's basically been sorely underused in Realmslore: we can see (out of setting) that the rules make magic far more powerful/awesome so we can imply (in setting) that smokepowder is just not available, affordable, reliable, or powerful enough for Realmsfolk to treat it as seriously as we do in our own world. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6645 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2019 : 11:59:02
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A big nay from me. Never liked the idea as firearms were always an uncomfortable fit in a world governed by gods and magic. Just who in their right mind came up with "smokepowder" in the Realms is a mystery, although I have my suspicions. Must ask Ed.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2019 : 14:54:47
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| Well, yay because I adhere to canon but nay I try to make every excuse in the world to leave it unavailable. Only time it should be available anywhere imo is for the giff because it suits them |
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lookatroopa
Acolyte
Netherlands
38 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2019 : 22:53:06
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| Yay, I think it's rare enough to not mess too much with the tone of the whole setting, and it adds an interesting element to Lantan. The fact that regular gunpowder doesn't work quite right (as attested here by Ed) also provides potential for some interesting scenarios involving giff, as Seethyr mentioned. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2019 : 14:50:30
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| Yay, because I'd be a hypocrite since my namesake PC/NPC was known for carrying firearms. That being said, as others have intimated, there need to be TIGHT controls on smokepowder or the oil used in Thayan Bombards, etc.... The idea of "guns becoming an equalizer" across the realms shouldn't be possible. That being said, in certain areas, I wouldn't be adverse to them showing up a lot more (Lantan for instance having gun using golems makes perfect sense to me). I also wouldn't be adverse to portions of the "rediscovered" realms (Anchorome/Maztica/Lopango/Katashaka) having some small societies that also turned to smoke powder and other alchemical solutions during their time in Abeir. There may have even been certain plants, minerals, etc... common to Abeir that might have made it easier to create stockpiles of such, but that trade in this material is now hampered. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2019 : 15:17:58
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Given the long history and high relative level of sophistication of alchemy, it would be illogical in the extreme if no way of creating any kind of conflagrant or explosive existed in the Realms.
However, as smokepowder is thus an alchemical creation, not simply a chemical mixture, it is not necessarily susceptible to economies of scale. Alchemy requires innately magical ingredients and no matter how many learn a functional recipe for smokepowder, it will remain rare and extremely expensive as long as these ingredients are rare and expensive.
Thus, the major advantage gunpowder had in the real world doesn't exist in the Realms. When each shot from a musket or cannon is literally thousands of times more expensive than in our world, firearms and cannon don't actually replace expensive professional warriors like knights with Early Modern mass armies armed with firearms.
Smokepowder doesn't change anything in the Realms, it's just another form of magical power usable in warfare. It's stored magical fire, not a replacement for magic. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2019 : 22:21:58
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| true, you aren't making it from bat shit and other cheap fodder, which is a product noone wants. Someone basically would need to find something similar in effect but cheap to create. We know bombard oil produces a somewhat similar effect, but it also doesn't appear to be cheap, and it would appear to be a lot more volatile (less controlled) explosion. There are noted fire creating things in alchemy (For instance, Lands of Intrigue mentions that the Flaming Fist mercenaries of Fort Flame are hoping to get ahold of "Calishite Fire - a nonmagical, alchemical incendiary" to burn away the surrounding jungles to make a buffer and agricultural land between them and the Poscadari elves (Personal Note: it was that one sentence that made me think "great place for the Thayans to say they'd like to put an enclave if the people are looking for fire). I picture Calishite Fire to be something akin to Napalm or Greek Fire. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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shades of eternity
Learned Scribe
288 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2019 : 23:27:27
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I'll follow the official guidelines (I had to tweak a few things), but I'm okay with using them in proximity to Lantern and Gond worship, especially with any anti-magic sentiment in some regions.
It gives exotic lands a bit of "here be dragons" feel and I'm a sucker for the duck's foot pistol. :D |
check out my post-post apocalyptic world at www.drevrpg.com |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2019 : 01:29:40
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Smokepowder in 2E is actually treated as a magical item, it has an active dweomer. (The DMG describes it as two separate powders which are inert until mixed, not sure if these are magical.)
Spelljammer's version is apparently nonmagical (chemical).
I don't think the substance is actually described in Realmslore.
But if it is magical then it's probably not ideal for those who have antimagical sentiments. And if it's magical then it can be neutralized with dispel magic, anti-magic shell, and dead-magic zones - or it can becone unpredictable stuff in wild-magic zones. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2019 : 02:42:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Smokepowder in 2E is actually treated as a magical item, it has an active dweomer. (The DMG describes it as two separate powders which are inert until mixed, not sure if these are magical.)
Spelljammer's version is apparently nonmagical (chemical).
I don't think the substance is actually described in Realmslore.
But if it is magical then it's probably not ideal for those who have antimagical sentiments. And if it's magical then it can be neutralized with dispel magic, anti-magic shell, and dead-magic zones - or it can becone unpredictable stuff in wild-magic zones.
I think there's several canon references linking the two, but the main one was some short story in Waterdeep I believe. Don't quote me on that, but I believe its true, especially since they're called the same in both. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2383 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2019 : 03:21:50
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IIRC Spelljammer rules on dead-magic zones said nothing about smokepowder not working there?
Other than this, we are back on the circular track.  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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BadLuckBugbear
Seeker
USA
92 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2019 : 03:34:48
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Yay.
I'm actually running a Realms/Ravenloft crossover now.
One PC brought an advanced gun of his own design from Ravenloft. He hardly ever shoots the thing, but it does work on Toril. The smoke is now electric blue, which surprised him.
'Smoke-powder' is a binary semi-magical explosive (like in the AD&D2E PHB and DMG) in most games I run. That keeps cannon and guns a curiosity or specialist weapon, unsuitable for mass production and everyday use.
I have run games in other settings in which non-magical black powder exists.In my Birthright game the stuff was developed fairly recently and nothing more advanced than simple cannon had been developed. No corning, either.
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Ewan Cummins |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2019 : 14:02:53
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
IIRC Spelljammer rules on dead-magic zones said nothing about smokepowder not working there?
I don't believe it was addressed in Spelljammer material. Dead magic zones were a Realms-specific thing, and the people doing Spelljammer stuff tended to ignore stuff for the specific settings. At least, that's my impression, given the fact that the Toril- and Selūne-specific info in Realmspace didn't agree with anything in (then) published Realmslore*, and some of the stuff in Krynnspace blatantly contradicts Dragonlance lore.
*I say that Realmspace didn't agree with then-current Realms canon, and it's true -- but it's not as much that it contradicted anything, as much as it was nothing mentioned in Realmspace was backed up by existing Realmslore. Particular examples include a castle that vanished from the Moonshaes, and a group of assassins active there -- stuff that's mentioned in Realmspace, but not in any Realmslore. |
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shades of eternity
Learned Scribe
288 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2019 : 15:01:30
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At the risk of sidelining this thread, I'm convinced spelljammer should have been it's own setting.
http://breadthofpopsanity.blogspot.com/2016/04/spelljammer-some-thoughts.html
I've always imagined it as more of a b5 type setting.
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If smoke powder is essentially magical and not alchemical, then it would be hypocritical to use it. Not impossible per say, just difficult.
Bare in mind I'm the guy that ran storm giant's thunder with characters with ultramodern 5 (they were from stargate command and I made the reason gnomes were the forgotten folk is they had the same level of tech and acted as tech support. The party drove around the sword coast in a green studebaker) :D |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2019 : 22:38:06
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Smokepowder in 2E is actually treated as a magical item, it has an active dweomer. (The DMG describes it as two separate powders which are inert until mixed, not sure if these are magical.)
Spelljammer's version is apparently nonmagical (chemical).
I don't think the substance is actually described in Realmslore.
But if it is magical then it's probably not ideal for those who have antimagical sentiments. And if it's magical then it can be neutralized with dispel magic, anti-magic shell, and dead-magic zones - or it can becone unpredictable stuff in wild-magic zones.
I think there's several canon references linking the two, but the main one was some short story in Waterdeep I believe. Don't quote me on that, but I believe its true, especially since they're called the same in both.
If I remember correctly, the short story was called Gunn Runner. Realms of Magic maybe?
As to the OPs question: Yes! Absolutely allow guns and smoke-powder in my Realms games. Most don't ask for it but I'd certainly allow them. I should preface this with the fact that they're not exactly common place and are often highly illegal in most cities, and for good reason - because sometimes they unexpectedly explode! Regardless of Edition, I use Warcraft's Malfunction Rating (MR), a number that is represented by a low 1-3 roll on either an attack roll or skill check. Rolling this means the device backfires and a sudden immense explosion occurred (DC check depends on edition) to succeed in not taking damage.
This also has a chance of breaking the item, if the damage done (assuming a failed save or the attack hits the defense in 4e) exceeds the items hardness it's broken and needs repaired.
In any case it certainly adds a special feeling to our games. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2019 : 00:13:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Smokepowder in 2E is actually treated as a magical item, it has an active dweomer. (The DMG describes it as two separate powders which are inert until mixed, not sure if these are magical.)
Spelljammer's version is apparently nonmagical (chemical).
I don't think the substance is actually described in Realmslore.
But if it is magical then it's probably not ideal for those who have antimagical sentiments. And if it's magical then it can be neutralized with dispel magic, anti-magic shell, and dead-magic zones - or it can becone unpredictable stuff in wild-magic zones.
I think there's several canon references linking the two, but the main one was some short story in Waterdeep I believe. Don't quote me on that, but I believe its true, especially since they're called the same in both.
If I remember correctly, the short story was called Gunn Runner. Realms of Magic maybe?
As to the OPs question: Yes! Absolutely allow guns and smoke-powder in my Realms games. Most don't ask for it but I'd certainly allow them. I should preface this with the fact that they're not exactly common place and are often highly illegal in most cities, and for good reason - because sometimes they unexpectedly explode! Regardless of Edition, I use Warcraft's Malfunction Rating (MR), a number that is represented by a low 1-3 roll on either an attack roll or skill check. Rolling this means the device backfires and a sudden immense explosion occurred (DC check depends on edition) to succeed in not taking damage.
This also has a chance of breaking the item, if the damage done (assuming a failed save or the attack hits the defense in 4e) exceeds the items hardness it's broken and needs repaired.
In any case it certainly adds a special feeling to our games.
Actually, given the expensive nature of smokepowder since its magical... yeah, getting guns "fine-tuned" like we have them in our world would be exceptionally problematic, since they can't just sit around and fire off a thousand rounds in testing. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2019 : 00:40:17
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Actually, given the expensive nature of smokepowder since its magical... yeah, getting guns "fine-tuned" like we have them in our world would be exceptionally problematic, since they can't just sit around and fire off a thousand rounds in testing.
Very true. I'm not sure how pricing is supposed to go in a typical setting with guns - assuming they're legal and common - but in my Realms games they come in small kegs with 15lbs of smoke-powder, worth 750 gp. Firearms use 1oz a shot. It also comes in water resistant powder-horns that hold 2lb capacity and are worth 75 gp on the black market.
This powder can also be refined or imbued, with each costs a lot more. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2019 : 03:22:15
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Savage Coast (Red Steel) also has a type of smokepowder, it's implied that it only works in the "haze" but it's not actually stated that it won't work anywhere else. It requires vermeil and cinnabar to manufacture and they are intimately unique to the region.
Ravenloft had some smokepowder and firearms in the hands of wandering Vistani. But it could've come from anywhere.
Planescape mentions smokepowder-like weapons used by baatezu soldiers and yugoloth mercenaries in the Blood War. But I don't recall any specific rules about them. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2019 : 13:25:20
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| In My Realms smokepowder exist, is a alchemic substance and is highly unstable, get wet and do not have enough punch to work in anything smaller than huge cannon. For those reasons it is considered only if you want to demolish something with few barrels of it and do not care about collateral damage. It also means there will be no muskets, pistols, ... |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2383 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2019 : 16:41:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't believe it was addressed in Spelljammer material. Dead magic zones were a Realms-specific thing,
Uh, all those huge, "hope you had enough food and water to drift through it" sargassos? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2019 : 19:49:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
IIRC Spelljammer rules on dead-magic zones said nothing about smokepowder not working there?
I don't believe it was addressed in Spelljammer material. Dead magic zones were a Realms-specific thing, and the people doing Spelljammer stuff tended to ignore stuff for the specific settings.
They didn't need to address it; smoke powder is from the DMG, so it generally didn't need to be restated. However, The Concordance of Arcane Space, page 42 states "Bombards use magical smoke powder to function...The scarcity of smoke powder (which is a magical item in fantasy space)..."
So yeah, it is implicit that smoke powder wouldn't work in magic-dead areas like sargassos, since it is a magic item, as stated in the DMG.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2019 : 20:49:47
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't believe it was addressed in Spelljammer material. Dead magic zones were a Realms-specific thing,
Uh, all those huge, "hope you had enough food and water to drift through it" sargassos?
What about them? Sargassos are areas where magic does not function, yes... But sargassos, though nearly identical, are not the same as dead magic areas, and sargassos are not connected to the ToT -- they exist in other spheres.
(A spelljamming helm in a sargasso slows to half speed, dies, comes back to half speed, then dies entirely; this is per Lost Ships, from Ed's pen. A spelljamming helm that's already running will ignore a dead magic zone, per the FRA book)
Either way, Spelljammer material did not mention smoke powder in regards to dead magic zones, which was the question I was responding to. I agree with AuldDragon that it didn't really need to be addressed, but my original statement that it was not addressed remains correct. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 26 Sep 2019 20:52:29 |
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Smoke Powder - yay or nay?
