| Author |
 Topic  |
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Jun 2019 : 21:16:04
|
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I'll definitely agree that it makes perfect sense for Bhaal and Myrkul to come back as demigods...
Given that it was prior canon that Myrkul was happier NOT being a deity, I disagree that it makes sense to re-deify him in any format.
Ok, let me add a disclaimer... since they ARE bringing him back... it makes sense for him to come back as a demigod. My point being much like the person I was quoting... both Bhaal and Myrkul were "gone" from the existing as a deity standpoint. So, if they do decide to come back (and oddly, they may not have been given a choice... note, I said MAY... there is a chance that something forced Myrkul to leave the crown of horns.... it could have even have been a ritual performed by worshippers... I say this from the standpoint that we've often said that gods are shaped by their worshippers beliefs).
But as far as Bane goes, it makes no sense whatsoever for him to be a demigod UNLESS some of the ideas we've proposed in the past are true (i.e. Iyachtu Xvim was using Bane's name) and thus a "demigod" Bane and a separate "greater god" Bane are existing at the same time (with the greater god being Xvim). I actually kind of like this idea, especially with the odd idea that "returned Gilgeam" is "demigod Bane" possessing the "godflesh" that formerly held Gilgeam. It would work with my concept that some gods were active during the spellplague in Abeir, and that they had to "build up" power their at first as "lesser avatars" that basically had to inhabit the bodies of worshippers (like during ToT) before building a separate "avatar" body.
From what I understand, their current power doesn't depend on being resurrected (lots of deities have returned with their old power/portfolios, a few even gaining some more on top of it), but it's due to some kind of condition imposed by Ao (as in: you want to be a meddlesom little f***er? Well, now you are demigods and can be killed by randoms).
So sayeth the web notes. If the same end is achieved but in a more believable manner, with less of just "Ao's having a fit" both sides are happy. Until it hits paper, things can be discussed and rehashed. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
 |
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2019 : 21:21:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I'll definitely agree that it makes perfect sense for Bhaal and Myrkul to come back as demigods...
Given that it was prior canon that Myrkul was happier NOT being a deity, I disagree that it makes sense to re-deify him in any format.
Ok, let me add a disclaimer... since they ARE bringing him back... it makes sense for him to come back as a demigod. My point being much like the person I was quoting... both Bhaal and Myrkul were "gone" from the existing as a deity standpoint. So, if they do decide to come back (and oddly, they may not have been given a choice... note, I said MAY... there is a chance that something forced Myrkul to leave the crown of horns.... it could have even have been a ritual performed by worshippers... I say this from the standpoint that we've often said that gods are shaped by their worshippers beliefs).
But as far as Bane goes, it makes no sense whatsoever for him to be a demigod UNLESS some of the ideas we've proposed in the past are true (i.e. Iyachtu Xvim was using Bane's name) and thus a "demigod" Bane and a separate "greater god" Bane are existing at the same time (with the greater god being Xvim). I actually kind of like this idea, especially with the odd idea that "returned Gilgeam" is "demigod Bane" possessing the "godflesh" that formerly held Gilgeam. It would work with my concept that some gods were active during the spellplague in Abeir, and that they had to "build up" power their at first as "lesser avatars" that basically had to inhabit the bodies of worshippers (like during ToT) before building a separate "avatar" body.
From what I understand, their current power doesn't depend on being resurrected (lots of deities have returned with their old power/portfolios, a few even gaining some more on top of it), but it's due to some kind of condition imposed by Ao (as in: you want to be a meddlesom little f***er? Well, now you are demigods and can be killed by randoms).
So sayeth the web notes. If the same end is achieved but in a more believable manner, with less of just "Ao's having a fit" both sides are happy. Until it hits paper, things can be discussed and rehashed. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2019 : 21:43:29
|
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So sayeth the web notes. If the same end is achieved but in a more believable manner, with less of just "Ao's having a fit" both sides are happy. Until it hits paper, things can be discussed and rehashed.
Oh, sure, I didn't mean to shut down the conversation, even though, looking at my previous post, I understand why it may have looked like that. Things can be discussed and rehashed even after they hit paper. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2019 : 22:01:39
|
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
From what I understand, their current power doesn't depend on being resurrected (lots of deities have returned with their old power/portfolios, a few even gaining some more on top of it), but it's due to some kind of condition imposed by Ao (as in: you want to be a meddlesom little f***er? Well, now you are demigods and can be killed by randoms).
How can they have their old portfolios when someone else has them? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2019 : 22:18:20
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
From what I understand, their current power doesn't depend on being resurrected (lots of deities have returned with their old power/portfolios, a few even gaining some more on top of it), but it's due to some kind of condition imposed by Ao (as in: you want to be a meddlesom little f***er? Well, now you are demigods and can be killed by randoms).
How can they have their old portfolios when someone else has them?
Those other deities no longer have the portfolios, or the returned deities only have a part of their old portfolios. Kelemvor now only has "the dead", while Myrkul has death; Bhaal has murder and Cyric no longer has it; Leira only has illusions; Mask took intrigue and Cyric no longer has it. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
|
|
|
Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2019 : 05:44:51
|
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Mask took intrigue and Cyric no longer has it.
Did he? AFAIK while Cyric is nowadays only listed as having the portfolio of lies, Mask is only listed as having the portfolio of thieves.
No mention that Mask took intrigrue back, just every deity shortened to just a single listed portfolio without further explanation why the rest of their former portfolios isn't listed anymore |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2019 : 14:17:14
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Mask took intrigue and Cyric no longer has it.
Did he? AFAIK while Cyric is nowadays only listed as having the portfolio of lies, Mask is only listed as having the portfolio of thieves.
No mention that Mask took intrigrue back, just every deity shortened to just a single listed portfolio without further explanation why the rest of their former portfolios isn't listed anymore
Mask's entry in the SCAG (I mean his description) suggests that he took back intrigue ("People whisper a prayer to Mask whenever stealth is required or intrigue is afoot"). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
|
|
|
Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2019 : 14:19:30
|
| That doesn't mean that he took it back. Just that people ask him about that. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2019 : 14:44:00
|
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
That doesn't mean that he took it back. Just that people ask him about that.
Since in Cyric's writeup there's little pointing to him still having intrigue, I think it's likely that Mask now has it. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2019 : 19:21:54
|
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
From what I understand, their current power doesn't depend on being resurrected (lots of deities have returned with their old power/portfolios, a few even gaining some more on top of it), but it's due to some kind of condition imposed by Ao (as in: you want to be a meddlesom little f***er? Well, now you are demigods and can be killed by randoms).
How can they have their old portfolios when someone else has them?
Those other deities no longer have the portfolios, or the returned deities only have a part of their old portfolios. Kelemvor now only has "the dead", while Myrkul has death; Bhaal has murder and Cyric no longer has it; Leira only has illusions; Mask took intrigue and Cyric no longer has it.
So they nerfed the new deities so they could bring back the old ones, got it.
Not in my Realms. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2019 : 23:32:12
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
From what I understand, their current power doesn't depend on being resurrected (lots of deities have returned with their old power/portfolios, a few even gaining some more on top of it), but it's due to some kind of condition imposed by Ao (as in: you want to be a meddlesom little f***er? Well, now you are demigods and can be killed by randoms).
How can they have their old portfolios when someone else has them?
Those other deities no longer have the portfolios, or the returned deities only have a part of their old portfolios. Kelemvor now only has "the dead", while Myrkul has death; Bhaal has murder and Cyric no longer has it; Leira only has illusions; Mask took intrigue and Cyric no longer has it.
So they nerfed the new deities so they could bring back the old ones, got it.
Not in my Realms.
Neither in mine. My take on gods is very different from the published Realms. In any case, that's what it is in the current version. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
|
|
|
Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2019 : 13:01:23
|
It's worth noting that, at least as of the explanation in Faiths and Avatars (2e), most if not all divine portfolios can be shared between multiple deities, though not necessarily in equal quantities of influence.
According to a conference with the FR authors (available on YouTube) about the Sundering, the Tablets of Fate act as a stabilizing anchor for portfolios (at least for Realmspace), so gods were able to lose all of their portfolio to another with just the death of their avatar (ex. Mask) in the absence of the Tablets of Fate.
With the return of the Tablets of Fate and previously lost gods, it's probably become something of a tug of war now on portfolios, but not the "yoink" environment of the Era of Upheaval. Returning gods could be pulling at their previous portfolios, regaining part of their original influence and resulting in shared portfolios (not necessarily a willing share).
|
My Blog: https://www.facebook.com/Johnnys-Tabletop-RPG-Design-Blog-1697026710539149/?ref=aymt_homepage_panel
My DMG Shop: http://www.dmsguild.com/browse.php?x=0&y=0&author=Johnny%20Tek
|
|
|
|
Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2019 : 19:33:37
|
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
With the return of the Tablets of Fate and previously lost gods, it's probably become something of a tug of war now on portfolios, but not the "yoink" environment of the Era of Upheaval. Returning gods could be pulling at their previous portfolios, regaining part of their original influence and resulting in shared portfolios (not necessarily a willing share).
I guess that this is what happens during the Second Sundering (1482 to 1487 DR), with the gods working hard, by themselves and through their Chosen and other servants, to maintain or regain their portfolios, or gaining new ones if they had a chance. And by 1488 DR, that stuff got consolidated. That would explain the silence of the gods during 1487 and 1488 DR. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2019 : 02:32:01
|
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
It's worth noting that, at least as of the explanation in Faiths and Avatars (2e), most if not all divine portfolios can be shared between multiple deities, though not necessarily in equal quantities of influence.
According to a conference with the FR authors (available on YouTube) about the Sundering, the Tablets of Fate act as a stabilizing anchor for portfolios (at least for Realmspace), so gods were able to lose all of their portfolio to another with just the death of their avatar (ex. Mask) in the absence of the Tablets of Fate.
With the return of the Tablets of Fate and previously lost gods, it's probably become something of a tug of war now on portfolios, but not the "yoink" environment of the Era of Upheaval. Returning gods could be pulling at their previous portfolios, regaining part of their original influence and resulting in shared portfolios (not necessarily a willing share).
This is kind of what I've been saying for a while. Basically, there may be many portfolios that can be shared amongst multiple gods so long as the portfolio doesn't imply that they have "absolute control" over the portfolio. For instance, Mask being the god of thieves shouldn't mean he can control all thieves. There can be another god of thieves. They can compete for worshippers, even within the same pantheon. Same goes for war, beauty, justice, etc.. as long as the gods have unique takes on such. I realize this goes a bit against the concepts written up for how gods worked after the ToT regarding portfolios, but it makes sense. However, within a pantheon, there should be only one moon goddess if there's only one moon.... unless of course some goddesses agree to share the moon phases or somesuch. Same with their being only one sun god, unless the sun deities agree to somehow share the portfolio (a god of rainbows and light, and another the god sunsets and fire).
The big problem here would become too many deities with the same portfolio would mean less divine power as its "split". This is what would lead the gods to conflict and one try to wipe out the other.... not Ao saying "only one can have it". Its like multiple animals of the same kind inhabiting an area and competing for resources. If there's not enough they come into conflict. This might lead some gods to try to have numerous portfolios to eke a little from each, and this is where I think Ao might require them to DO SOMETHING in order to ally themselves with a portfolio (i.e. not just wake up and announce, I'm god of enchantment magic). So, if they have to put some kind of buy in to get a portfolio (say an expense of divine power), they're going to probably need significant "return on investment". Thus deities would be leery to invest in a portfolio of beauty for instance if there's already 3 other beauty gods who are better known for it in the first place. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2019 : 02:34:06
|
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
It's worth noting that, at least as of the explanation in Faiths and Avatars (2e), most if not all divine portfolios can be shared between multiple deities, though not necessarily in equal quantities of influence.
According to a conference with the FR authors (available on YouTube) about the Sundering, the Tablets of Fate act as a stabilizing anchor for portfolios (at least for Realmspace), so gods were able to lose all of their portfolio to another with just the death of their avatar (ex. Mask) in the absence of the Tablets of Fate.
With the return of the Tablets of Fate and previously lost gods, it's probably become something of a tug of war now on portfolios, but not the "yoink" environment of the Era of Upheaval. Returning gods could be pulling at their previous portfolios, regaining part of their original influence and resulting in shared portfolios (not necessarily a willing share).
This is kind of what I've been saying for a while. Basically, there may be many portfolios that can be shared amongst multiple gods so long as the portfolio doesn't imply that they have "absolute control" over the portfolio. For instance, Mask being the god of thieves shouldn't mean he can control all thieves. There can be another god of thieves. They can compete for worshippers, even within the same pantheon. Same goes for war, beauty, justice, etc.. as long as the gods have unique takes on such. I realize this goes a bit against the concepts written up for how gods worked after the ToT regarding portfolios, but it makes sense. However, within a pantheon, there should be only one moon goddess if there's only one moon.... unless of course some goddesses agree to share the moon phases or somesuch. Same with their being only one sun god, unless the sun deities agree to somehow share the portfolio (a god of rainbows and light, and another the god sunsets and fire).
The big problem here would become too many deities with the same portfolio would mean less divine power as its "split". This is what would lead the gods to conflict and one try to wipe out the other.... not Ao saying "only one can have it". Its like multiple animals of the same kind inhabiting an area and competing for resources. If there's not enough they come into conflict. This might lead some gods to try to have numerous portfolios to eke a little from each, and this is where I think Ao might require them to DO SOMETHING in order to ally themselves with a portfolio (i.e. not just wake up and announce, I'm god of enchantment magic). So, if they have to put some kind of buy in to get a portfolio (say an expense of divine power), they're going to probably need significant "return on investment". Thus deities would be leery to invest in a portfolio of beauty for instance if there's already 3 other beauty gods who are better known for it in the first place. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2019 : 09:38:46
|
The whole portfolio idea is terrible. It only serves to break the one curb on a gods power, in that they cannot survive if they have no worshippers.
With portfolios you can have a God of nuclear physics (even though it doesn't exist as a field of study in the realms) just because some deus ex machina says so. A portfolio is another part of the problem of gods directly intervening in the material plane (which I'm sure most will acknowledge is a terrible idea), they exist only to serve and defend those portfolios and have some or total control (according to novels) over events directly related to those portfolios, which gives rise to fuzzy logic about lolth not allowing PCs to perform certain actions against drow because her portfolio is drow.
Without portfolios the whole God concept begins to make some sense. A God is defined by his followers and is given power by their prayers, without those followers he swiftly diminishes into nothing.
The church determines what their God stands for (guided by myths and their divine texts), if another church tries to muscle in on that territory (theologically or geographically), then it is the religious servants of that church who will battle for supremacy until there is a clear winner (calling upon the power of their God to aid them - spells).
Without portfolios any action is allowed and it all plays out on the stage that is toril, which let's face it is what we are all interested in (rather than some otherworldly deific domain that we have little knowledge about or connection to).
So dump portfolios and you solve a lot of problems with the realms, then you can start having complex, intricate interaction between the people and organisations of toril, rather than the child like tantrums of the gods. |
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9
Alternate Realms Site |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2019 : 15:10:52
|
| If you dump portfolios, then there's no point to multiple gods, because there's nothing to distinguish them from each other. And if they don't have any particular thing that empowers them, then they all wither away. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
The State of the Dead Three after the Sundering
