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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1347 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2019 :  20:50:00  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Hey, guys, I'm wondering which gods existed back then in the era of the Creator Races. I know about the World Serpent and its sarrukh incarnations, but what gods worshiped the batrachi, the aearee or the fey?

I believe, the ape-like humans didn't had gods back then, so gods of Netherese origins such as Shar, Selūne and the others shouldn't have existed in that age. Or at least, not in the form and with the names the Netherese later gave them.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 26 May 2019 21:37:40

ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
1423 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2019 :  21:28:00  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There was presumably Syranita in some form in the aearee pantheon.

There was presumably Blibdoolpoolp and Ramenos in some form in the batrachi pantheon.

--Eric

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1347 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2019 :  21:41:08  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks, Eric. Didn't knew about Syranita.

Are there other sources about her besides Monster Mythology?

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 26 May 2019 21:41:48
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
1423 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2019 :  22:04:22  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Thanks, Eric. Didn't knew about Syranita.

Are there other sources about her besides Monster Mythology?



Not much. Here are the refs from the wiki page.

#8593; Richard Baker, James Wyatt (March 2004). Player's Guide to Faerūn. (Wizards of the Coast), p. 158. ISBN 0-7869-3134-5.
#8593; 2.0 2.1 2.2 2.3 2.4 2.5 2.6 2.7 2.8 Carl Sargent (May 1992). Monster Mythology. (TSR, Inc), p. 94. ISBN 1-5607-6362-0.
#8593; Colin McComb (1996). On Hallowed Ground. Edited by Ray Vallese. (TSR, Inc), p. 177. ISBN 0-7869-0430-5.
#8593; Eric L. Boyd (1998). Demihuman Deities. (Wizards of the Coast), p. 94. ISBN 0-7869-1239-1.

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
607 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2019 :  22:07:38  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

There was presumably Syranita in some form in the aearee pantheon.

There was presumably Blibdoolpoolp and Ramenos in some form in the batrachi pantheon.

--Eric



I wonder though Eric, was possibly the Obyrith Demon Prince Dagon in the Batrachi pantheon? I thought he may fit, especially that there was a portal in Hall of Mists (as detailed in Mintiper's Chapbook), in a temple there, built by the Creator Races (the builders implied I think to be both Sarrukh and Batrachi), and were Ramenos was worshiped among deities.

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Hey, guys, I'm wondering which gods existed back then in the era of the Creator Races. I know about the World Serpent and its sarrukh incarnations, but what gods worshiped the batrachi, the aearee or the fey?

I believe, the ape-like humans didn't had gods back then, so gods of Netherese origins such as Shar, Selūne and the others shouldn't have existed in that age. Or at least, not in the form and with the names the Netherese later gave them.




With Shar and Selūne, there was among the Sarrukh the God called "Ssharstrune", who some believe is either an ancient form of Shar, or even an ancient, composite form of Shar and Selūne.

Ssharstrune's and Shekinester myth, even somewhat resembles the Sisters of Light and Darkness myth of Shar and Selune. From Serpent Empires:
quote:
Of all the emergent aspects of the Great Scaled One, two deities in particular attracted the worship of most nagas: Ssharstrune and Shekinester. The former embodied the principles of curiosity, destruction, and possessiveness that had precipitated the World Serpents fragmentation. The latter, known as the Naga Queen, became the keeper of the knowledge and wisdom originally held by the World Serpent, preserved within the eternal flame that she guarded.

After the fall of Mhairshaulk, both Ssharstrune and Jazirian, another fragment of the World Serpent, began to court Shekinester. The Naga Queen eventually chose Jazirian and became pregnant by him. Enraged by this decision, Ssharstrune attacked Shekinester, and she was forced to swallow him. In so doing, the Naga Queen took into herself the same destructive element that had fragmented the World Serpent in the first place. As a result, she acquired five guises: the Acquirer, the Empowerer, the Seeker, the Weaver, and the Preserver. This event was accompanied by a fivefold division in the naga race, forming the five major subraces now known as dark nagas, guardian nagas, iridescent nagas, spirit nagas, and water nagas.

Upon giving birth to Parrafaire, the Naga Prince, Shekinester expelled Ssharstrunes remains and instructed her offspring to hide away the destructive force that the corpse embodied forever, so that her five-fold aspect could not actually divide her into five separate goddesses. Parrafaire complied with her wishes, and now both he and his mother are venerated as guardians of the naga race.

Edited by - Baltas on 26 May 2019 22:32:33
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1347 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2019 :  23:35:50  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I was aware of the sarrukh gods, and of the "Ssharstrune/Sharselūne" theory. Shekinester sounds like a positive form of Tiamat, actually...

Anyways, I was wondering if Othea maybe is a really ancient form of Chauntea. I mean, she was part of the giant pantheon, but if we go by the Grand History, she was already on Toril when Annam appeared in this universe. And while giant myth says she is dead, perhaps she was revived and/or transformed into Chauntea by the humans' faith or something. After all, Chauntea is one of the members of the Netherese pantheon.

quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Thanks, Eric. Didn't knew about Syranita.

Are there other sources about her besides Monster Mythology?



Not much. Here are the refs from the wiki page.

#8593; Richard Baker, James Wyatt (March 2004). Player's Guide to Faerūn. (Wizards of the Coast), p. 158. ISBN 0-7869-3134-5.
#8593; 2.0 2.1 2.2 2.3 2.4 2.5 2.6 2.7 2.8 Carl Sargent (May 1992). Monster Mythology. (TSR, Inc), p. 94. ISBN 1-5607-6362-0.
#8593; Colin McComb (1996). On Hallowed Ground. Edited by Ray Vallese. (TSR, Inc), p. 177. ISBN 0-7869-0430-5.
#8593; Eric L. Boyd (1998). Demihuman Deities. (Wizards of the Coast), p. 94. ISBN 0-7869-1239-1.



Thanks. Of these, I have access to On Hallowed Ground. I'll check it.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
607 Posts

Posted - 27 May 2019 :  00:30:09  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Yeah, I was aware of the sarrukh gods, and of the "Ssharstrune/Sharselūne" theory. Shekinester sounds like a positive form of Tiamat, actually...

Anyways, I was wondering if Othea maybe is a really ancient form of Chauntea. I mean, she was part of the giant pantheon, but if we go by the Grand History, she was already on Toril when Annam appeared in this universe. And while giant myth says she is dead, perhaps she was revived and/or transformed into Chauntea by the humans' faith or something. After all, Chauntea is one of the members of the Netherese pantheon.




Shekinester sounding like a more positive form of Tiamat, is interesting, as some of the oldest lore in Realms about Tiamat, ie the first Draconomicon, implied Tiamat is a destructive aspect of Asgorath/Asgoroth the World Shaper, who was true neutral:
quote:
The Book provides a fascinating
origin myth relating to dragonkind.
From a close reading of the
text, it becomes obvious that
Asgorath the World-Shaper is a
dragon. The implication-that a
dragon created the universe, and
that dragons were the first creatures
to exist-is quite fascinating.
A further point arises from the sentence
that reads, "And so
Asgorath bent her form around the
Crystal Sun, and touched her
breath to it." In the original
Thorass, the word "breath"-normally
used as a singular or uncountable
noun in this context"
has been given a plural suffix
("breaths"). Is this meant to imply
that Asgorath is a multi-headed
dragon?
The text is clearer when it comes
to the "Spawn of Asgorath." There
can be no doubt that these creatures
are red dragons. The following
sentences hint that this
religion holds the red dragon as
the most important species of
dragon. All others would "later depart
from . . . purity." When the Renegade ("bahmat"
in the original Thorass) duplicates
the actions of Asgorath, the dragons
that arise are "not of the pure
red," but rather "colored . . . like
the unliving metals." The implication
here is obvious: The Spawn of
the Renegade are the metallic-
and primarily good-aligned-dragons,
What the Book of the World
contains is not only an origin myth
of dragons - which makes it important
enough in its own right"
but also one of the few surviving
evil-oriented origin myths.
It is easy to speculate, based on
this myth. The plural inflection of
the word "breath" might be taken
as implying multiple heads; the
Thorass word for renegade is
"bahmat." It seems almost too
close a correlation- can Asgorath
be Tiamat and the Renegade be
Bahamut?


Of curse, it's suggested by a red dragon creation myth (with a red dragon supremacist bias in it visible), but many myths are at least part true, with Io being created 2 years latter (in Monster Mythology), and identified even latter with Asgorath in Cult of the Dragon I think.

Then again, both Io like Shekinester is said to be an aspect of the World Serpent, with these aspects being connected, with some myths, Tiamat starting out as part/aspect of Io or Asgorath - ie in the 4th edition Nethir Vale core campaign, in the semi-canon Reign of Dragons by Brian R. James:
http://www.candlekeep.com/compendium/Candlekeep_Compendium-Volume_IV.zip
, as it was somewhat canonized by materials like The Grand History of the Realms.

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Anyways, I was wondering if Othea maybe is a really ancient form of Chauntea. I mean, she was part of the giant pantheon, but if we go by the Grand History, she was already on Toril when Annam appeared in this universe. And while giant myth says she is dead, perhaps she was revived and/or transformed into Chauntea by the humans' faith or something. After all, Chauntea is one of the members of the Netherese pantheon.




With Othea, it's indeed quite possible Chauntea is her current expression/form. Especially that Othea supposedly died "in a form of mountain", fairly close to were Netheril was founded... It's also possible they fragmented from common being, along with the Earthmother of Moonshae. (Especially that Jannath actually has some visible similarities with the Earthmother, including being named as such).

About the Earthmother, I think se was worshiped, or at least honored by LeShay/The Fey Creator Race (they have a connection in 4E), as well other, at least most ancient Faerie Gods/Archfey and Primal Sprits were being worshiped, or at honored by LeShay the Fey Creator races. Both Fey and Elves (before the Seldarine) worshiped once the Faerie Gods and Primal Spirits, and while apparently LeShay rather gated/transported Fey or at least elves to the Realms, rather than directly created them, there is a pattern the "creations" of Creator Races worship the Gods of their creators.
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6824 Posts

Posted - 27 May 2019 :  01:46:27  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you accept 4E lore then perhaps Creator Races worshipped some Primordials?

(My library contains no real lore for 4E and beyond so I don't know if this assertion is valid.)

[/Ayrik]
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BadCatMan
Learned Scribe

Australia
342 Posts

Posted - 27 May 2019 :  02:04:40  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The batrachi may have worshipped Ramenos, though the lore only connects them once the batrachi moved to Limbo, where he changed them for the second time. Still, it suggests Ramenos predates the bullywugs.

The batrachi released the primordials, but whether they worshipped them or not seems unknown.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Batrachi

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Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1347 Posts

Posted - 27 May 2019 :  02:16:04  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't think so. Sarrukh myths had the World Serpent led the "elder gods" (the gods of the age, I guess?) against the primordials, so I guess it wouldn't be wise to worship the enemies of your god. Unless you're a member of some "evil" cult. Likewise, the batrachi didn't knew about them until they released Asgorath and some other primordials from their prison... and well, Asgorath ended up killing them. The aearee may have worshiped some of them (air-themed primordials, such as Akadi), but is highly unlikely because at that point the primordials were on Abeir.

There is another point here, as well. The specific 4e products for the Forgotten Realms categorized Asgorath as a primordial, while Io is categorized as deity in core 4e products (and in the SCAG, a 5e product). Likewise, while Io is stated to have been killed by a primordial in the Dawn War (creating/elevating Bahamut and Tiamat to godhood; the tale is conflicting), Asgorath is stated to be alive and well, as one of the few "primordial deities" that are worshiped in the current era... And well, we know Asgorath and Io are the SAME being (I even asked Ed about this, and he said "yes, they are one and the same"). That's what makes current dragon mythology so confusing...

But well, that's why those tales are labeled as "myths" and not "actual facts".

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 27 May 2019 02:19:52
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
1423 Posts

Posted - 27 May 2019 :  02:39:49  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Eadro is another candidate.

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/

Edited by - ericlboyd on 27 May 2019 03:03:51
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5522 Posts

Posted - 27 May 2019 :  07:31:16  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
But well, that's why those tales are labeled as "myths" and not "actual facts".



Quoted for truth.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4617 Posts

Posted - 27 May 2019 :  08:17:29  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm with you on the myths not being taken as fact, but why can you not die and then become a God. Becoming a God requires belief, people can believe in you even if you are dead.

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
607 Posts

Posted - 27 May 2019 :  18:24:01  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

But well, that's why those tales are labeled as "myths" and not "actual facts".



quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

I'm with you on the myths not being taken as fact, but why can you not die and then become a God. Becoming a God requires belief, people can believe in you even if you are dead.



Indeed, but with myth and beliefs, the fun thing is, that in D&D if a large number of people, believe in something strongly enough, especially with Gods, it becomes truth, even to the point retroactively rewriting history.

This is most evident in Planescape, but also is in other settings, including Faerun.

It is at least implied, that Lathander becoming Amuanator (for a time), is due to belief (in the Risen Sun heresy and ad to a level the Three-Faced Sun heresy) causing it, not being it truth from the start.

According to Serpent Empires the fracturing the of World Serpent, was started by the creation of in -34500 DR, (via belief) of M'daess, which was stated the fracturing of the World Serpent - but other sources indicate the World Serpent fractured before the existence of Abeir-Toril, as seen with Ahriman and Jazirian, but also Io.

And the World Serpent possibly isn;t a god - it was described by sources, as a Primal Spirit, or even an Overgod, showing the power of belief. (Maybe this is why Ao is suggested to work against having worshipers - as he fears he would be influenced by worship if it grew strong enough).

This might be why Asgorath/Io is on Crystal Spheres or even worlds different things - a Deity, a Primordial, a fragment/aspect of the World Serpent (possibly what he originally was, hence the similarities between Shekinester and Tiamat, especially that Tiamat be seen as a further aspect/fragmentation of Io/Asgorath) - as what Io is, and possibly even his history, is shaped by strong enough belief, of a large enough population.

Edited by - Baltas on 28 May 2019 02:45:06
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1347 Posts

Posted - 28 May 2019 :  03:06:31  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm beginning to think that many of the earlier gods in the Realms were manifestations of the World Serpent.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6824 Posts

Posted - 28 May 2019 :  03:23:57  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Ahriman-Jazirian myth only appeared in Planeslore, not in Realmslore. And in Planeslore the myth only appeared in one book (A Guide To Hell) while it was conspicuously absent from all others (even though many of these involved Heaven and Hell and Asmodeus).

I'm personally disinclined to put much weight on the myth. If it fits into other Planeslore that's great, if it doesn't then it's gone while preference is given to a larger body of self-consistent Planeslore which exists without it. And if it's tangential to Planeslore then it's basically entirely irrelevant to Realmslore. You gotta draw the line somewhere because if you don't then you'll have to find ways to shoehorn Sigil and the Blood War and Asmodeus and Vecna and so many other things into Realmslore which just won't fit without displacing or overwriting something else.

[/Ayrik]
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
607 Posts

Posted - 28 May 2019 :  04:18:03  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I'm beginning to think that many of the earlier gods in the Realms were manifestations of the World Serpent.



Yup, that's very probably the case -you probably know, but it;s actually also outright stated with Ramenos, him being described as an extremely corrupted aspect of the World Serpent.

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

The Ahriman-Jazirian myth only appeared in Planeslore, not in Realmslore. And in Planeslore the myth only appeared in one book (A Guide To Hell) while it was conspicuously absent from all others (even though many of these involved Heaven and Hell and Asmodeus).

I'm personally disinclined to put much weight on the myth. If it fits into other Planeslore that's great, if it doesn't then it's gone while preference is given to a larger body of self-consistent Planeslore which exists without it. And if it's tangential to Planeslore then it's basically entirely irrelevant to Realmslore. You gotta draw the line somewhere because if you don't then you'll have to find ways to shoehorn Sigil and the Blood War and Asmodeus and Vecna and so many other things into Realmslore which just won't fit without displacing or overwriting something else.



Actually, the myth of Asmodeus/Ahriman and Jaziran was referenced in latter early 3E materials at least. The original Book of Vile Darkness states Asmodeus' body we see, might not be his real self, only avatar, referencing the Ahriman version which stated it.

The 3E Manual of Planes even more directly references it, with it being stated in the section about the Nine Hells, Asmodeus' true form is that of a giant serpent, hundreds of miles long, and that his fall created the 8th and 9th planes of Hell. And that He is currently still recovering from his wounds in the pits of the 9th level, and his devil form is just an avatar of the real Asmodeus. This is literally the version from the Guide to Hell, ie the Ahriman version.

It is also arguably subtly referenced in the 4E Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, were Asmodeus is established as "an ancient deity who was relegated to the position of archdevil and toiled for untold millenia to regain his divinity".

And really, I apologize, saying that Asmodeus doesn't fit the Realms, is something I disagree with.

Gargauth is a part of the Realms lore for decades (with Asmodeus being directly part of his story), and the World Serpent myths, including even Jaziran, are an important part of Realms lore.
If anything, Asmodeus' origin as the as an aspect of the World Serpent, makes the most sense in Realms, seeing the World Serpent over the years was established as an important part of the Realms.

Wider D&D multiverse lore, also is ultimately Realmslore and vice versa - Forgotten Realms, are part of the Multiverse present in Planescape, with there even being travelers from other Crystal Spheres, like Oerth (with Oerth being also a big part of Khelben backstory), or even characters from Sigil, like Haer'Dalis.

Edited by - Baltas on 28 May 2019 04:26:30
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
32222 Posts

Posted - 28 May 2019 :  04:19:40  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

The Ahriman-Jazirian myth only appeared in Planeslore, not in Realmslore. And in Planeslore the myth only appeared in one book (A Guide To Hell) while it was conspicuously absent from all others (even though many of these involved Heaven and Hell and Asmodeus).


I've not read it myself, but I've seen enough to believe that A Guide To Hell is kind of an outlier, as far as Planescape goes -- a Planescape product that isn't really Planescape.

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Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1523 Posts

Posted - 28 May 2019 :  11:40:51  Show Profile  Click to see Barastir's MSN Messenger address Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wooly is right, its cover is that of a generic AD&D sourcebook, without the Planescape logo or any related art. Besides, I wonder why the work of Gray Richardson was not mentioned here this far. He has the best writings on the creator races, including some passages on their gods.

EDIT: You may want to check out the thread "The Aearee: Secrets of the Avian Creator Race" here at the keep.

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)

Edited by - Barastir on 28 May 2019 12:00:17
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1837 Posts

Posted - 28 May 2019 :  14:43:39  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Maybe, Aerdrie Faenya is from Aearee time too? Depending on how the Avariel appeared. She is "Winged Mother", after all. And remains very close to Syranita.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6824 Posts

Posted - 28 May 2019 :  14:57:37  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Baltas ... lol no need to apologize for correcting me.

I'm very familiar with 2E Planescape. Not so much with the 3E adaptation of it. Not at all with the 4E counterpart. So I'm sure Planescape has changed and changed again, not everything I said about it necessarily true anymore.

Those assertions of Asmodeus=Ahriman do seem deliberately ambiguous, though. I'm guessing WotC had their own half-developed ideas but were careful to not limit their options by directly validating or directly invalidating the older lore. Asmodeus has always been a kind of cool and popular part of D&D ... Asmodeus is sometimes a problematic and controversial part of D&D.

[/Ayrik]
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
607 Posts

Posted - 28 May 2019 :  21:39:41  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

@Baltas ... lol no need to apologize for correcting me.

I'm very familiar with 2E Planescape. Not so much with the 3E adaptation of it. Not at all with the 4E counterpart. So I'm sure Planescape has changed and changed again, not everything I said about it necessarily true anymore.

Those assertions of Asmodeus=Ahriman do seem deliberately ambiguous, though. I'm guessing WotC had their own half-developed ideas but were careful to not limit their options by directly validating or directly invalidating the older lore. Asmodeus has always been a kind of cool and popular part of D&D ... Asmodeus is sometimes a problematic and controversial part of D&D.



Ok I understand.

And with Asmodeus' origins being ambitgious, I can agree it's deliberate.

Even Pathfinder, which used the Guide to Hell origin, with Jazirian being replaced with/renamed as Ihys:
https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Ihys

But even in Pathfinder, they suggested Asmodeus might be a fallen celestial instead.

Also, I remembered the last printed issue of the Dragon Magazine, issue 359, also repeated the Guide to Hell backstory for Asmodeus, suggesting it is his true origin if I remember right, as well as suggesting the Lady of Pain is another of the World Serpent's aspects.

quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

Maybe, Aerdrie Faenya is from Aearee time too? Depending on how the Avariel appeared. She is "Winged Mother", after all. And remains very close to Syranita.



It's possible Aerdrie Faenya was worshiped by Aearee, but I think it's also possible Aerdrie Faenya is merger of an ancient elven deity and an Aearee deity.

(Aerdrie Faenya is more connected to Ysgard, specifically Alfheim, having one of her realms there, because of that I think she might be also connected to the Vanir (who are implied to be connected to Seldarine - Planescape's Book of Chaos states, "Some say that Alfheim was once a part of Arvandor, and gradually slid over into Ysgard as its people grew more concerned with honor and survival." Alfheim is also ruled by a Vanir, Freyr. Tarsellis Meunniduin also travels between Vanaheim and Alfheim when he isn;t in his realm.)

It does also seem Syranita and Aerdrie Faenya merged by the 3E era, as Aerdrie Faenya became the goddess of aarakocra by then, and the 2E Demihuman Deities suggested they started to merge even by then.

quote:
Originally posted by Barastir

Wooly is right, its cover is that of a generic AD&D sourcebook, without the Planescape logo or any related art. Besides, I wonder why the work of Gray Richardson was not mentioned here this far. He has the best writings on the creator races, including some passages on their gods.

EDIT: You may want to check out the thread "The Aearee: Secrets of the Avian Creator Race" here at the keep.



Yup, Gray Richardson work on Aearee is superb. I think it wasn't mentioned, because we only started discussing Aearee.

Edited by - Baltas on 28 May 2019 21:55:34
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8131 Posts

Posted - 29 May 2019 :  22:44:15  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I don't think so. Sarrukh myths had the World Serpent led the "elder gods" (the gods of the age, I guess?) against the primordials, so I guess it wouldn't be wise to worship the enemies of your god. Unless you're a member of some "evil" cult. Likewise, the batrachi didn't knew about them until they released Asgorath and some other primordials from their prison... and well, Asgorath ended up killing them. The aearee may have worshiped some of them (air-themed primordials, such as Akadi), but is highly unlikely because at that point the primordials were on Abeir.

There is another point here, as well. The specific 4e products for the Forgotten Realms categorized Asgorath as a primordial, while Io is categorized as deity in core 4e products (and in the SCAG, a 5e product). Likewise, while Io is stated to have been killed by a primordial in the Dawn War (creating/elevating Bahamut and Tiamat to godhood; the tale is conflicting), Asgorath is stated to be alive and well, as one of the few "primordial deities" that are worshiped in the current era... And well, we know Asgorath and Io are the SAME being (I even asked Ed about this, and he said "yes, they are one and the same"). That's what makes current dragon mythology so confusing...

But well, that's why those tales are labeled as "myths" and not "actual facts".




Bear in mind... many gods are killed.... they don't STAY dead.

However, I commend you on this topic. Its one that I've been interested in for a while.

According to some 4e lore, the Raven Queen created the Kenku, but we also have a different story in monster mythology.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1347 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2019 :  18:00:58  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, the Raven Queen is canon in the Realms as of 5e, and following her new 5e lore, she may have been there by the time of the aearee.

I don't recall the tale in Monster Mythology, but if it involves Pazuzu, it doesn't contradicts what was said in 4e.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 30 May 2019 18:02:13
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BrennonGoldeye
Seeker

44 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2019 :  18:12:19  Show Profile Send BrennonGoldeye a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hello all!

I have actually DM'd a campaign where the "bad guys" were 2 priests that had been trapped in one of those ever present stasis vaults in the Realms. They were both from Days of Thunder, since there were no Gods of the Sun or Moon or even Darkness they were both Heretics, one of the Darkmoon and the other of the Three Faced Sun. Both Lawful Neutral in a very "Follow the law or die" sorta way. Any ideas about these heresies being based on the Ancient forms of these Deities?

Sam
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6824 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2019 :  18:21:56  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"Heresy: adherence to religious opinion contrary to church dogma."

Seems to me that claiming an ancient deity is gone and supplanted by some new deity would be the ultimate form of "opinion contrary to church dogma". Centuries of conflicts between Western faiths (along with all their own internal divisions, denominations, and schisms) have been caused by exactly this: each faith attests that only their version of the "one" deity exists and any other versions must therefore be somehow misguided, wrong, or false.

Of course "heretic" and "infidel" and "apostate" and "pagan" each has a distinct meaning which tacitly implies some sort of opposition or rejection of a dominant church/religion. They're less applicable when that religion simply lacks any real presence - in which case words like "unbeliever" or "cult" or "fanatic" tend to be used.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 30 May 2019 18:36:42
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