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Grisix
Acolyte
USA
19 Posts |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2066 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Apr 2019 : 13:07:50
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
There are lots. As in “George Krashos is a known Chosen of Leira.”
OMG, I literally just busted out here. That caught me off guard. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2019 : 18:11:48
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I can neither confirm nor deny anything.
— George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2066 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2019 : 20:16:47
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I can neither confirm nor deny anything.
— George Krashos
That sounds like something a known Chosen of Leira would say. |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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AJA
Senior Scribe
USA
747 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2019 : 00:39:29
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
That sounds like something a known Chosen of Leira would say.
That sounds like something a known Chosen of Leira would say just because they know that's what you were expecting them to say, and then when you said "I knew you were going to say that!," they would go on to neither confirm nor deny that they ever said anything of the sort in the first place, at least nothing that a known Chosen of Leira would either say or not say, because why would a known Chosen of Leira say what you expected them to say and for that matter why would a known Chosen of Leira not say what you expected them to say, either?
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AJA
YAFRP
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
954 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2019 : 01:31:40
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I'm a chosen. I think. I might be lying... down or not.
Seriously, I don't know that we would ever know. Any chosen would probably be so cloaked in illusion. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2019 : 03:55:08
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The Mistmaster is an obvious candidate for a Chosen of Leira.
On the flipside, though, that very obviousness could be an argument against it. Someone truly skilled in deception and illusion would most likely not be a highly visible worshipper of Leira -- they'd be the equivalent of a deep-cover agent somewhere, or acting in some role that you'd never expect to find a Leiran. What if that ranking priest of Bane was actually a Leiran? What if that noble paladin of Tyr, leader of a group of 20 knights, all brave and true, was actually a worshipper of Leira, and was very subtly spreading disinformation as he traveled the land? |
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2019 : 05:00:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The Mistmaster is an obvious candidate for a Chosen of Leira.
On the flipside, though, that very obviousness could be an argument against it. Someone truly skilled in deception and illusion would most likely not be a highly visible worshipper of Leira -- they'd be the equivalent of a deep-cover agent somewhere, or acting in some role that you'd never expect to find a Leiran. What if that ranking priest of Bane was actually a Leiran? What if that noble paladin of Tyr, leader of a group of 20 knights, all brave and true, was actually a worshipper of Leira, and was very subtly spreading disinformation as he traveled the land?
That's exactly the way I would see it, play it, DM it. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2019 : 09:28:03
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I would, and have, extended that idea. Not only is the Chosen of Leira not obvious - but he is a virtual unknown in the Realms, basically invisible to the everyone. Like the Simbul he could be the spoon in your soup, or the chair you just sat in. He was the old woman you passed in the street and maybe the street itself.
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2019 : 09:32:25
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I would, and have, extended that idea. Not only is the Chosen of Leira not obvious - but he is a virtual unknown in the Realms, basically invisible to the everyone. Like the Simbul he could be the spoon in your soup, or the chair you just sat in. He was the old woman you passed in the street and maybe the street itself.
Also, if you ever watched the movie Krampus, I think he does that a lot - creates whole worlds of illusion that mirror the Realms that countless NPCs are trapped in endlessly living out their false lives.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2019 : 15:43:51
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I would, and have, extended that idea. Not only is the Chosen of Leira not obvious - but he is a virtual unknown in the Realms, basically invisible to the everyone. Like the Simbul he could be the spoon in your soup, or the chair you just sat in. He was the old woman you passed in the street and maybe the street itself.
I thought of that, but didn't use that as an example. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2019 : 15:49:27
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I would, and have, extended that idea. Not only is the Chosen of Leira not obvious - but he is a virtual unknown in the Realms, basically invisible to the everyone. Like the Simbul he could be the spoon in your soup, or the chair you just sat in. He was the old woman you passed in the street and maybe the street itself.
Also, if you ever watched the movie Krampus, I think he does that a lot - creates whole worlds of illusion that mirror the Realms that countless NPCs are trapped in endlessly living out their false lives.
I think this one goes too far... What is the point of having the Matrix in the Realms? At least in the movie, there was -- as weak as it was -- a reason for the existence of the Matrix. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2019 : 01:12:26
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| I'm not suggestion that there are millions such like a matrix, but a couple dozen entrapped in Leira's web of illusions and lies over the centuries sounds about right, especially since this sort of thing has numerous precedence in D&D, including the realms. One would think that the most powerful illusionist in the world would employ such methods. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2019 : 07:30:30
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I have this image of the old, lowly cleaning woman at the citadel of the Mistmaster being that deity’s Chosen.
— George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2019 : 13:11:41
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| My only issue is that would be why? The citadel of the Mistmaster is not a place many get to... and is built around old Elven magic if memory serves. Why would a god of illusion and deception have their chosen hiding out in a castle in the middle of an ancient forest? That would be similar to Elminster locking himself away in a tower somewhere and not venturing forth - all of his influence and meddling would disappear - he'd be a useless Chosen. In my mind the Chosen of the gods need to be active in the Realms, whether visible or not, to have any point. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2019 : 15:16:13
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By necessity, anyone found worthy of the goddess of liars and illusion has to be kind of a dick.
But then again, this is Leira, who thought that fooling the Realms into thinking she was dead - and thus destabilizing her power base and eroding her own divine power - was a fabulous idea, to the extent that Cyric nabbed part of her portfolio. Having a Wisdom score in the negatives might help.
This is just going by the FR wiki, but Leira's motives are really kind of dumb. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2019 : 16:05:34
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
By necessity, anyone found worthy of the goddess of liars and illusion has to be kind of a dick.
But then again, this is Leira, who thought that fooling the Realms into thinking she was dead - and thus destabilizing her power base and eroding her own divine power - was a fabulous idea, to the extent that Cyric nabbed part of her portfolio. Having a Wisdom score in the negatives might help.
This is just going by the FR wiki, but Leira's motives are really kind of dumb.
The wiki says that Cyric slew her. It doesn't say that there was any plot or anything on her part, just that her followers enjoy the confusion caused by her dying and returning.
I know some people here have suggested that her death was all part of some plot, possibly involving the participation of Ao, but I personally find that theory implausible and I stick with what's canon: Cyric, the infernal git, killed her, and then she came back a century later with Ao's Grand Handwave. I would have preferred some explanation other than that for her return, but explaining things is not something the current WotC crew are concerned about. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2019 : 16:47:50
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I accepted that Cyric killed her...but his "taking her power" also meant "taking her into himself" and she was one of the reasons he couldn't keep his crap together. That is how I saw it anyway.
Now, that she is "free" again things are back to normal...if she is actually free. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2019 : 02:52:45
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Back to the old argument I guess. Did Cyric kill Leira or did she dupe him into believing that he had. At this point it doesn't much matter.
However, if you take the latter spin, then the Lady of Lies lied so well she convinced a god to believing he had another portfolio and therefore tricked him into being her anchor through the Time of Troubles and the Spellplague - a buffer between herself and all the upheaval. Basically, if you look at it like this, Leira made Cyric her servant. I find this line of logic particularly amusing. I'd also make the argument that creating a lie/illusion so big that it fooled everyone in an entire multiverse of mortals and gods and monsters and devils would greatly empower the goddess of lies and illusion. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2019 : 03:38:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
By necessity, anyone found worthy of the goddess of liars and illusion has to be kind of a dick.
But then again, this is Leira, who thought that fooling the Realms into thinking she was dead - and thus destabilizing her power base and eroding her own divine power - was a fabulous idea, to the extent that Cyric nabbed part of her portfolio. Having a Wisdom score in the negatives might help.
This is just going by the FR wiki, but Leira's motives are really kind of dumb.
The wiki says that Cyric slew her. It doesn't say that there was any plot or anything on her part, just that her followers enjoy the confusion caused by her dying and returning.
I know some people here have suggested that her death was all part of some plot, possibly involving the participation of Ao, but I personally find that theory implausible and I stick with what's canon: Cyric, the infernal git, killed her, and then she came back a century later with Ao's Grand Handwave. I would have preferred some explanation other than that for her return, but explaining things is not something the current WotC crew are concerned about.
Leira's entry in the wiki, before her Dogma entry, says that she personally was delighted by the confusion.
I can accept that Leira was playing some kind of long con to usurp Cyric's portfolios from under his nose, but a prank that knocks you out of the ballpark and reduces your powerbase to Jim and Bob isn't a good one. |
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Balmar Foghaven
Learned Scribe
Canada
124 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2019 : 04:31:39
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| Wouldn't it be ironic if the chosen of Leira was a sleeper agent within the church of Cyric? |
"Despair not, for in the end all things shall work out for the best - in at least one timeline." |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2019 : 05:04:49
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
By necessity, anyone found worthy of the goddess of liars and illusion has to be kind of a dick.
But then again, this is Leira, who thought that fooling the Realms into thinking she was dead - and thus destabilizing her power base and eroding her own divine power - was a fabulous idea, to the extent that Cyric nabbed part of her portfolio. Having a Wisdom score in the negatives might help.
This is just going by the FR wiki, but Leira's motives are really kind of dumb.
The wiki says that Cyric slew her. It doesn't say that there was any plot or anything on her part, just that her followers enjoy the confusion caused by her dying and returning.
I know some people here have suggested that her death was all part of some plot, possibly involving the participation of Ao, but I personally find that theory implausible and I stick with what's canon: Cyric, the infernal git, killed her, and then she came back a century later with Ao's Grand Handwave. I would have preferred some explanation other than that for her return, but explaining things is not something the current WotC crew are concerned about.
Leira's entry in the wiki, before her Dogma entry, says that she personally was delighted by the confusion.
I can accept that Leira was playing some kind of long con to usurp Cyric's portfolios from under his nose, but a prank that knocks you out of the ballpark and reduces your powerbase to Jim and Bob isn't a good one.
And the History section, before the section on Dogma, says: "Months after the Avatar Crisis,[10] Leira was slain by the new deity of death, Cyric,[1] at the village Blackfeather Bridge,[11] wielding the sword Godsbane, which was in fact an avatar of Mask.[1] Her portfolios were subsequently absorbed by the mad god.[2] "
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2019 : 05:17:47
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I think the reason I never bought into the "death of Leira" was that it all happened offstage, while every other death of a deity got its own chapter :P
I also think that everyone buying into the "reduced her worshipers to 0" idea is way off base. If you are the god of lies and someone is praying to the god of lies then those are your points, no matter whether they know who is who. Even cooler if your lies are fkin with your worshipers... |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2019 : 08:58:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And the History section, before the section on Dogma, says: "... Leira was slain by the new deity of death, Cyric,[1] at the village Blackfeather Bridge,[11] ..."
Uhm, I admit I'm always surprised at how sometimes I overlook these bits of information. This one is kind of at odds with what's written in the novel and does't make much sense in itself.
In Prince of Lies we have the following passage:
"I lured Leira to Pandemonium" the Prince of Lies cackled "if there was anything left of her avatar it'd still be blowing around in here"
The passage on the 3E FRCS doesn't make much sense because Leira was killed after the ToT and losing a fight on the Prime would have just meant losing an avatar and be weakened. Same goes for losing an avatar on wider Pandemonium. Deities are like demons and devils, you have to kill them on their divine realm for it to count (except during the ToT, but Leira's murder was after that).
So I'm thinking Cyric might not have known of this (he was insane and only recently raised to godly status so he didn't know how the godly-stuff was run and he killed other gods during the ToT so he might have thought that was the norm, ignoring the special circumstances involved) and genuinely thought he killed Leira for good while he only dispatched an avatar, Mask probably knew, Ao would not tell the other gods to not go against Leira portfolio and mission and the other gods were panicked and paranoid at all the s**t that Cyric was doing that they didn't investigate too much.
So now re-reading the couple of sources that we have on this and seeing how in Prince of Lies it's explicitly mentioned an avatar of Leira I'm kind of bent on believing it was all a messy ruse, to what purpose I don't know.
EDIT: on the main topic, I fully believe the Mistmaster to be a Chosen of Leira (maybe without the capital C, just a buffed up unique follower, he is probably the highest level/ranking priest of Leira still around and a powerful archmage on top of that) for the whole "hiding in plain sight" factor he has, I also think a Chosen of Leira fomented the other side in the Harluaan-Nimbral split by making it easier for his/her brethren to be exiled and I can see past and/or present Zulkirs of Illusions being extremely favoured by the goddess |
Edited by - Demzer on 23 Apr 2019 09:32:28 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2019 : 10:25:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And the History section, before the section on Dogma, says: "... Leira was slain by the new deity of death, Cyric,[1] at the village Blackfeather Bridge,[11] ..."
Uhm, I admit I'm always surprised at how sometimes I overlook these bits of information. This one is kind of at odds with what's written in the novel and does't make much sense in itself.
In Prince of Lies we have the following passage:
"I lured Leira to Pandemonium" the Prince of Lies cackled "if there was anything left of her avatar it'd still be blowing around in here"
The passage on the 3E FRCS doesn't make much sense because Leira was killed after the ToT and losing a fight on the Prime would have just meant losing an avatar and be weakened. Same goes for losing an avatar on wider Pandemonium. Deities are like demons and devils, you have to kill them on their divine realm for it to count (except during the ToT, but Leira's murder was after that).
So I'm thinking Cyric might not have known of this (he was insane and only recently raised to godly status so he didn't know how the godly-stuff was run and he killed other gods during the ToT so he might have thought that was the norm, ignoring the special circumstances involved) and genuinely thought he killed Leira for good while he only dispatched an avatar, Mask probably knew, Ao would not tell the other gods to not go against Leira portfolio and mission and the other gods were panicked and paranoid at all the s**t that Cyric was doing that they didn't investigate too much.
So now re-reading the couple of sources that we have on this and seeing how in Prince of Lies it's explicitly mentioned an avatar of Leira I'm kind of bent on believing it was all a messy ruse, to what purpose I don't know.
I believe it was in Crucible where Ao explicitly stated that Leira was dead. Her death is also explicitly stated in Faiths & Avatars. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2019 : 10:44:11
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No god is truly dead. Especially a deity like Leira.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2019 : 10:55:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I believe it was in Crucible where Ao explicitly stated that Leira was dead. Her death is also explicitly stated in Faiths & Avatars.
In Prince of Lies Ao goes like "yep, they killed her, deal with it" on the Circle of Greater Deities and yes, I know in the god-books she is dead, so in canon she was dead until the Sundering.
I was merely pointing out some slight inconsistencies of the circumstances of her death to have some speculative fun but yeah, as far as canon goes she was dead. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2019 : 10:55:44
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
No god is truly dead. Especially a deity like Leira.
-- George Krashos
Said like a true Chosen! |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2019 : 16:17:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And the History section, before the section on Dogma, says: "... Leira was slain by the new deity of death, Cyric,[1] at the village Blackfeather Bridge,[11] ..."
Uhm, I admit I'm always surprised at how sometimes I overlook these bits of information. This one is kind of at odds with what's written in the novel and does't make much sense in itself.
In Prince of Lies we have the following passage:
"I lured Leira to Pandemonium" the Prince of Lies cackled "if there was anything left of her avatar it'd still be blowing around in here"
The passage on the 3E FRCS doesn't make much sense because Leira was killed after the ToT and losing a fight on the Prime would have just meant losing an avatar and be weakened. Same goes for losing an avatar on wider Pandemonium. Deities are like demons and devils, you have to kill them on their divine realm for it to count (except during the ToT, but Leira's murder was after that).
So I'm thinking Cyric might not have known of this (he was insane and only recently raised to godly status so he didn't know how the godly-stuff was run and he killed other gods during the ToT so he might have thought that was the norm, ignoring the special circumstances involved) and genuinely thought he killed Leira for good while he only dispatched an avatar, Mask probably knew, Ao would not tell the other gods to not go against Leira portfolio and mission and the other gods were panicked and paranoid at all the s**t that Cyric was doing that they didn't investigate too much.
So now re-reading the couple of sources that we have on this and seeing how in Prince of Lies it's explicitly mentioned an avatar of Leira I'm kind of bent on believing it was all a messy ruse, to what purpose I don't know.
I believe it was in Crucible where Ao explicitly stated that Leira was dead. Her death is also explicitly stated in Faiths & Avatars.
Because holding up the lie of a goddess of lies wouldn't be fully within the cards for Ao? Along these lines, its often been unclear the exact nature of what's going on with the gods until later lore is released (for instance, Bane and Xvim... which is still unclear). I'm just holding to the idea that even Ed put forth.... "Gods are the biggest liars of them all"... well, Leira would be the best of those... except for perhaps an overgod who wants everyone to think he's all powerful, unassailable, and able to change everything on a whim without any preparation and who KNOWS everything.... and when you're presenting yourself before a collection of your subordinates, that's a perfect time to push those views. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Chosen of Leira?
