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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8057 Posts

Posted - 09 Apr 2019 :  12:56:06  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
So, over the past few years, I've not been shy about some of my ideas for what should happen with returning areas of the realms. That's because I feel that other people will tell me if an idea sucks or if it can be done a better way... which is the way it should be. Noone has the ultimate vision, and I feel we should all put forth ideas, and shoot them down. That being said, I've been rethinking a lot of my concepts lately, in that I think I went too "big" in one concept (my united tharchs of Toril, not for being widespread, but for covering larger tracts than they should where they do exist).

Another thing that has come up has been that many of the returning or absent gods during the spellplague were active on Abeir instead. However, as much as I don't want this to just turn into a godswar on Abeir, several have mentioned that the gods should really be at a disadvantage there. I've posited that they should be weaker there, but actually, as I think on it, it makes for a good story to actually have a lot of these returning gods dying while in Abeir. I already had that with some, but others I had somewhat turned into sacred cows myself. In this thread, I will have my attempt to list out some gods and throw out an idea for what to do with them.

Thirdly, I got kind of intrigued with this concept of these people on the coast of the City of Gold boxed set. They are the Metahel, and they very much sound like stranded northmen. I started developing a "Realmsian" version of the Norse pantheon with obvious nods to the former, but not an exact copy. I've also noted that many of the lands possibly transferred TO Abeir held either descendants of "northmen" or were rumored to possibly be where the "northmen" came from. Also, there appears to be this portal network in the world that was depositing "northmen" in the Shaar, Ashanath, and possibly the mucklestones, other areas, etc... My thoughts are rather than having this "lost tribe" of Metahel spreading proliferously, maybe while in Abeir these different groups that happen to be in Abeir together start reconnecting (possibly due to the influence of their gods).

So, that all being said, the focus that I'm going to try and retain here (gods help me) is on what might we do with the lands of the Shaar that are filled up now, "returning Chessenta", portions of "returning Var, Estagund, Ulgarth, and the Utter East", "returning Halruaa", "returning Nimbral", "returning Chultan Peninsula countries of Samarach, Thindol, Tashalar, and Mhair Jungles", and if someone is interested... even possibly "returning Zakhara and the isle of Sahu, the isle of necromancy"


That being said, I'm going to try and do this topic in pieces. First stop, gods... who returned only to die protecting their people (or is rumored to have died protecting their people)? Again, feedback welcome, bring your ideas. Nothing is sacred.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8057 Posts

Posted - 09 Apr 2019 :  14:06:52  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
GODS: What to do with them?

So, a big idea that I've had is that Savras and Leira aren't dead. They've actually been on a mission since the time of troubles to protect magic. This is odd since the two magic gods hate one another, but they have to work together. Also to be thrown in here a bit is the idea that Mask has been working with Leira as a god of intrigues THROUGH Cyric.

The general idea is that these gods of magic work to get another deity, Velsharoon, restored on Toril by accessing a phylactery of his ON ABEIR via the Tower Terrible in the city of (transferred portion of) Soorenar. This god of necromancy then helps via <many plot devices to be developed> to restore other gods of the dead and other gods in general...who also then begin restoring gods. The island known as the Ship of the Gods during this time will be surrounded by powerful winds that defy even primordials (maybe a benefit provided by Ao) and its here that a lot of gods get reborn by inhabiting a mortal in the fashion of ToT avatars (lets call these lesser avatars). These gods then go out into the world, try and gather worship, do good, eventually leave their mortal host behind if they can, create a physical manifestation (ala Old Empires... some people might call these aspects or avatars), eventually possibly some became actual gods.


Ok, that being said, which gods might we want to have returning, only to be smited down in the last hundred years? Let's start with the Untheric Pantheon? How about a short blurb on what to do with them too?

Ereshkigal (dead) - this goddess of death is restored on the isle of Sahu by Velsharoon (some say via summoning and then sucking dry a "baatezu lord" known as Thasmudyan who had betrayed Ereshkigal long ago). Dies defending the Shaar from the depredations of the tyrant of Shyr (Karshimis)… make up story, and her death creates a lot of undead on the border. Rumors are that in death she bequeathed her power variously to a metahel goddess known as Heleshkiga, the drow goddess Kiaransalee, and/or another goddess known as "the Raven Queen".

Gilgeam (alive? Himself?) We know Gilgeam is alive.. but is he Gilgeam? Is he Bane? Is he a love child of Gilgeam's? Is he Iyachtru Xvim? Did the City of Mourktar and the divine artifact called the "Black Lord's Cloak" have anything to do with this? Did the "Black Lord's Cloak" truly manage to drink the blood of a primordial as is whispered?

Khass (alive) A little known cloud god of the Shaaryan barbarians. He's a weather/sky deity. The canon lore we have for him is from the 2nd edition Complete Barbarian's handbook and says
The cloud god Khass continually frustrates the barbarians of Eastern Shaar (in the FORGOTTEN REALMS" setting); for months, he ignores their petitions for rain, then drenches them with downpours for weeks at a time...... (palm trees are fingers of the multi-appendaged Khass)

My thoughts here are to give this god many names amongst different tribes. Khass, Khanu, Khassu, Enkhassu, Enku and thus provide POSSIBLE linkages to Enlil/Anu since we know he's back as well. Also give him a love relationship to Ishtar, and a rumored father relationship to Ramman and Assuran.


Ki (dead) a nature/earth goddess, she returned in the body of a Shaaryan centaur female who housed her as an avatar. She dies DURING the sundering trying to hold the land together as it transfers back to Toril. There is now a rift in the land of the Eastern Shaar that runs down to the great rift that is known as Ki's Cleft. Some rumors are that Ki was seen wrestling (mating?) with the being known as Grumbar (or perhaps it was the Mulhorandi deity known as Geb... one cannot exactly trust the stories of those who watched). She is rumored by some to have entrusted her power to Maztica. Others say it was Mielikki. The truth is not known.


Inanna (dead?) returned in the body of a Crintri (half-elf/drow/human) princess of Dambrath who was in the Shaar hunting horses during the spellplague with her sisters. Fell in love with a human possessing the spirit of the god Ramman. The two travel to Chessenta to free the city of Akanax. They manage to do so, near the second sundering, but eventually have to sacrifice themselves for the good of the city. She appears separate from her mortal avatar, in the form of a giant golden lioness, before she dies/disappears. The surviving mortal who housed her continues to rule Akanax beside her human lover. Rumored to have given her power to the metahel goddess Sifya, though others say it was the red knight or even Loviatar. Others say that she didn't actually die and that Ishtar appeared at her side in the last seconds before she disappeared. The truth? We can decide.

Ishtar (dead) Sacrifices herself in order to bring water to the land of the Shaar maybe? Need a better story idea here. She is a lover of Khass (see above), and a favored goddess of the city of Peleveran. Rumored to have given her power to the Metahel goddess known as Eldunna. Others say it was to Eldath.

Ningal (dead?) A goddess of dreams, hope, marriage, basket weaving, cloth making, sewing, and cooking who was the wife of Nanna-Sin. She appeared to a mortal genasi of the same name, and its rumored that he resided the majority of her time in Abeir upon the island known as the ship of the gods. Maybe at some point this island gets invaded by primordials finally, maybe right around the time of the sundering, leaving her exact disposition (and that of other gods on the "ship of the gods" unknown).


Ramman (dead) see notes above with Inanna. Dies defending Akanax, leaving behind the mortal human that he had inhabited. Defends the city in the form of a giant bull surrounded by lightning. His mortal avatar continues to rule Akanax which holds a mixture of humans, crintri, half-elves, and wood elves from the Chondalwood. The society is very warlike, but less "testosterone" based and more "strategy"/"archers"/etc... Ramman himself is rumored to transfer his power to a Metahel god known as Thoros, though some say he transfer it to a Mulhorandi god known as Anhur. The truth? A mystery

Tammuzi (dead) a little known god of Shepherds, cattle herding, and Animal Husbandry. Rumored to be a son of Khass and Ki, and also a former lover of Inanna (who it is rumored "divorced" him for some past transgression involving Inanna's descent into the underworld). I'm thinking have him somehow die, but not in combat. Perhaps his death provides an abundance of livestock, mounts, etc... to either appear or be born. His sacrifice helps the mortals of the world survive.

OTHER GODS INTERLOPING TO AREA

Kiga the Predator (alive) A Zakharan hunting goddess (in the form of a panther) believed to be dead actually has followers in Katashaka. The Crintri of the Shaar flock to her worship.

AFTERMATH
So, in the end, only Khass (who may be Anu/Enlil) survives from all of the "returning" Untheric gods. His worship becomes strong. Inanna may also survive, or it may be that another goddess is receiving worship in her name. Meanwhile, perhaps some other Metahel gods begin to receive worship in the names of other dead gods (or perhaps they were always the same beings... truth is always interesting).






Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8057 Posts

Posted - 09 Apr 2019 :  14:55:42  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
On the death of Ereshkigal, this might need some research, but was there EVER any mention of the city of Shandaular in the Council Hills region during 4e? Just thinking it might be interesting to have her bring back the Arkaiun dead in the form of spirits (not undead who want to see people dead), but more like the telthors of Rashemen. In fact, having a group of "Durthans" who maybe come from actual Durthans who were in Abeir, or Metahel who study similar magics, or followers of Kiaransalee, Heleshkiga, or the Raven Queen.... the gist of the idea being to having an awakened city of the dead surrounded an active portal that connects to various parts of the world..... and maybe even became a point of contention with the Eminence of Araunt... or tied to them... The dead could come from MANY cultures too. Arkaiun, Shaaryan, Untheric, Mulhorandi, Durpar/Estagund/Var the Golden, Sarrukh, centaurs, wemics, dwarves, elves, other races... because they could be awakened from nearly ANY time in history.


In fact, maybe many of these gods died not in combat, but rather performing some "ritual" or other that furthers their ethos, and then the being that was housing their avatar is freed to continue their lives.


On Ereshkigal as well, its worth it to note that in the undercity of Unthalass was a "lamia noble" of the same name. However, given that lamia nobles are simply "woman top, snake bottom" there's a lot of leeway as to what she ACTUALLY was. Demonic Marilith, Yuan-Ti, Wereserpent, actually a lamia noble, fallen lillend who lost/hid her wings, something else?


Just looking at the 4e map, there's nothing definitive as to whether the council hills are still there.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1339 Posts

Posted - 09 Apr 2019 :  21:14:59  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wasn't Ereshkigal a lamia living in Unthalass? At least, I remember her from the Old Empires supplement. I don't remember any mention of her being a goddess...

Anyways, on topic.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

The general idea is that these gods of magic work to get another deity, Velsharoon, restored on Toril by accessing a phylactery of his ON ABEIR via the Tower Terrible in the city of (transferred portion of) Soorenar. This god of necromancy then helps via <many plot devices to be developed> to restore other gods of the dead and other gods in general...who also then begin restoring gods. The island known as the Ship of the Gods during this time will be surrounded by powerful winds that defy even primordials (maybe a benefit provided by Ao) and its here that a lot of gods get reborn by inhabiting a mortal in the fashion of ToT avatars


A few questions there:

-Why Ao would give a benefit to the gods? As far as I know, Ao doesn't play favorites. Unless he has some purpose that affects the whole of Realmspace in some form, he will not give benefits to no one for the sake of it. This points us to another question...

-If Ao gives a benefit to the gods, what benefit he gives to the primordials in return? I mean, even if Ao want to give benefits to the gods for free, the primordial will ask their due. And even Ao fears what the primordials can do if they are denied (it was fear of Asgorath destroying Abeir-Toril what made Ao give the primordials their own world).

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Ereshkigal (dead) - this goddess of death is restored on the isle of Sahu by Velsharoon (some say via summoning and then sucking dry a "baatezu lord" known as Thasmudyan who had betrayed Ereshkigal long ago). Dies defending the Shaar from the depredations of the tyrant of Shyr (Karshimis)… make up story, and her death creates a lot of undead on the border. Rumors are that in death she bequeathed her power variously to a metahel goddess known as Heleshkiga, the drow goddess Kiaransalee, and/or another goddess known as "the Raven Queen".


I like to relate her with the Raven Queen. It would explain why the Raven Queen is now lurking in Realmspace.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Gilgeam (alive? Himself?) We know Gilgeam is alive.. but is he Gilgeam? Is he Bane? Is he a love child of Gilgeam's? Is he Iyachtru Xvim? Did the City of Mourktar and the divine artifact called the "Black Lord's Cloak" have anything to do with this? Did the "Black Lord's Cloak" truly manage to drink the blood of a primordial as is whispered?


Enlil said that this second Gilgeam is either his son, but weakened and "changed", or either someone else who has "some measure of my son's power".

Hope this can help.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Khass (alive) A little known cloud god of the Shaaryan barbarians. He's a weather/sky deity. The canon lore we have for him is from the 2nd edition Complete Barbarian's handbook and says
The cloud god Khass continually frustrates the barbarians of Eastern Shaar (in the FORGOTTEN REALMS" setting); for months, he ignores their petitions for rain, then drenches them with downpours for weeks at a time...... (palm trees are fingers of the multi-appendaged Khass)

My thoughts here are to give this god many names amongst different tribes. Khass, Khanu, Khassu, Enkhassu, Enku and thus provide POSSIBLE linkages to Enlil/Anu since we know he's back as well. Also give him a love relationship to Ishtar, and a rumored father relationship to Ramman and Assuran.


What's Anu a different deity according to "On Hallowed Ground"? Anyways, if Khass is indeed Enlil, then he would have been absent from the Realms since... uff, the end of the First Untheric Empire. In the novel, Enlil says that he returned to the Toril only after he saw the magic of the Sundering, and this made him curious about the fate of his son and his people.

So, if Khass has been active before the Sundering, he cannot be related to Enlil.


quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Ki (dead) a nature/earth goddess, she returned in the body of a Shaaryan centaur female who housed her as an avatar. She dies DURING the sundering trying to hold the land together as it transfers back to Toril. There is now a rift in the land of the Eastern Shaar that runs down to the great rift that is known as Ki's Cleft. Some rumors are that Ki was seen wrestling (mating?) with the being known as Grumbar (or perhaps it was the Mulhorandi deity known as Geb... one cannot exactly trust the stories of those who watched). She is rumored by some to have entrusted her power to Maztica. Others say it was Mielikki. The truth is not known.



If you go this route, then you should ignore the Sundering novels (or at least, the Sentinel), as in those novels the Shaar was never exchanged. Just re-created by Grumbar.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Ningal (dead?) A goddess of dreams, hope, marriage, basket weaving, cloth making, sewing, and cooking who was the wife of Nanna-Sin. She appeared to a mortal genasi of the same name, and its rumored that he resided the majority of her time in Abeir upon the island known as the ship of the gods. Maybe at some point this island gets invaded by primordials finally, maybe right around the time of the sundering, leaving her exact disposition (and that of other gods on the "ship of the gods" unknown).


Is this Ningal related to the genasi with the same name who was follower of Selûne before the Spellplague, mentioend in the FRCS?

Anyways, dunno why, but always think about this guy when I read about Ramman.

Also, AFAIK there is nothing about the Council Hills in 4e.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 10 Apr 2019 02:39:00
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1339 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2019 :  02:41:18  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've found this product on DM's Guild, Supplemental Empires. I haven't fully read it yet, but I skimmed a bit, and I like what I've read so far. Since it's related with some of your ideas, I wanted to share it here.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 10 Apr 2019 02:44:50
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8057 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2019 :  13:23:46  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Wasn't Ereshkigal a lamia living in Unthalass? At least, I remember her from the Old Empires supplement. I don't remember any mention of her being a goddess...

Anyways, on topic.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Ereshkigal (dead) - this goddess of death is restored on the isle of Sahu by Velsharoon (some say via summoning and then sucking dry a "baatezu lord" known as Thasmudyan who had betrayed Ereshkigal long ago). Dies defending the Shaar from the depredations of the tyrant of Shyr (Karshimis)… make up story, and her death creates a lot of undead on the border. Rumors are that in death she bequeathed her power variously to a metahel goddess known as Heleshkiga, the drow goddess Kiaransalee, and/or another goddess known as "the Raven Queen".


I like to relate her with the Raven Queen. It would explain why the Raven Queen is now lurking in Realmspace.




Gonna respond to this one separately, well, because I think a lot of us haven't necessarily learned a lot of the old Mesopotamian god stories, and it took me a bit to piece some of this together to understand WHAT happened. It doesn't sound like you're very against her, just you're trying to stay canon.

First, the Raven Queen. The main thing I link between these two is that they're both goddess of death, and the imagery of both is very similar (they are both pictures as women with feathered wings, see link). Also, the idea is to leave it open for interpretation within a game whether various gods are "the same being" (i.e. is Hel also Heleshkigal, also Ereshkigal, also the Raven Queen, and also possibly Kiaransalee... or are they splits of an original... or is there something else, like Markustay's idea of the corrupting influence of some artifacts which he named "The Regalia of Winter")

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burney_Relief

In one of the first edition Monster Manual II they gave a list of "Rulers of the Abyss" and they name Ereshkigal and Nergel (and note Nergel as only a Lord, not a complete sovereign over an entire layer). Some old Greyhawk "Gord the Rogue" stories place Nergel as a demon related to death (forget how). So, possibly Ereshkigal and Nergel are demon lords who can act like gods similar to other demon lords... or maybe they're gods who were sent to the abyss similar to Lolth... or maybe something else.

Ereshkigal was a "lamia noble" under Unthalass, known as the Queen of Tortures. It should be noted also that said entry also said, "none have encountered her and escaped alive, so the stories of the Queen of Tortures remain only hushed whispers that are usually spoken in barrooms". So, if that's taken literally, there stands a very good chance that people don't know the truth behind her. They even showed a picture of a woman top snake bottom creature,surrounded by standard lamia (woman top/quadruped animal bottom) and wererats. NOTE: at that time they really hadn't even named the OTHER Untheric gods which were dead.

There's also a canon city of Ereshkigal on the isle of Sahu ("the isle of Serenity" or "the Isle of Death" depending on translation of the language of the Necromancer Kings that ruled there) from the Complete Necromancer's Handbook.

Given that Ereshkigal is a goddess of death from the same pantheon as Inanna and Ishtar (in both she is "her" sister, and in both she takes her sister captive in the Underworld), and there is a city dedicated to her name on "the isle of death" where the "necromancer kings" were from, its my viewpoint that Ereshkigal broke from the other Untheric gods on Toril and went south to Zakhara. Timewise this would have been AFTER her husband Gugalanna was already dead, after she had held Inanna in the underworld, and after she had already married Nergal, and when she leaves the Untheric pantheon Nergal rules as lord of the dead.... until Gilgeam has him AND HIS ENTIRE FAMILY entombed way up by Narfell for some reason following the orcgate wars.


It should also be noted that the complete book of necromancers actually has a story which somewhat mirrors Inanna's descent to the Underworld, but with Cyric in the role of Ereshkigal and Loviatar in the role of Inanna, but the name of the "realm" is the name of Ereshkigal's underworld realm (Erkalla) and Ereshkigal's palace name (Ganzir). In said story, she's in the Underworld to get "her sister"... sister unnamed... so is it Kiputytto… is it Inanna... is it Ishtar?

Here is a link to the actual myth of Inanna's Descent to the Underworld which is mirrored in the above by Loviatar and Cyric (interestingly enough, Loviatar is a daughter of two rulers (Queen Tuonetar and King Tuoni) of a different underworld (Tuonela) in Finnish Mythology) for reference
https://essexmyth.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/inannas-descent.pdf

From the Wiki on the Ancient Mesopotamian underworld, this should be noted:
The ruler of the underworld was the goddess Ereshkigal, who lived in the palace Ganzir, sometimes used as a name for the underworld itself. Her husband was either Gugalanna, the "canal-inspector of Anu", or, especially in later stories, Nergal, the god of death. After the Akkadian Period (c.#8201;2334 – 2154 BC), Nergal sometimes took over the role as ruler of the underworld.

From the Wiki on Gugalanna we get this
In Sumerian religion, Gugalanna is the first husband of Ereshkigal, the queen of the Underworld. His name probably originally meant "canal inspector of An" and he may be merely an alternative name for Ennugi. The son of Ereshkigal and Gugalanna is Ninazu. In Inanna's Descent into the Underworld, Inanna, the goddess of love, beauty, sex, and war, tells the gatekeeper Neti that she is descending to the Underworld to attend the funeral of "Gugalanna, the husband of my elder sister Ereshkigal". Some scholars consider Gugalanna to be the same figure as the Bull of Heaven, slain by Gilgamesh and Enkidu in the Epic of Gilgamesh.

So, to piece together these things, Lord Gugalanna is the "Bull of Heaven" and husband to Ereshkigal, and Gilgamesh (read Gilgeam) makes Inanna mad by refusing to sleep with her. She sends "the Bull of Heaven" (her brother-in-law) to punish Gilgamesh/Gilgeam. The "Bull of Heaven" is killed. Inanna dresses in all her "finery of power" (called the me) and decides to descend to the Underworld to attend the funeral rites of her sister's (Ereshkigal's) husband (Lord Gugalanna) (whom she just caused to get killed just because a man refused to sleep with her). Ereshkigal allows her to enter the underworld, but only by stripping away her "finery of power", then she puts her on trial, and the judges of the underworld punish her by killing her and hanging her body from hooks. All the other gods refuse to help her, except Enki (a power of earth and water in real world and "father of Marduk"), who sends two "dirt" constructs to bring her the "food and water of life", which brings the goddess back to life. In return for being allowed to leave the Underworld though, someone must take her place. So, she returns home, finds her own husband (Dumuzi, god of shepherds) living it up with his wife dead, and decides... yeah, you bastard you can go to the land of the dead... and let's demons take her husband to the underworld. Let that be a lesson to any man to not trust Inanna, and it makes Ereshkigal's killing of her own sister actually make sense (i.e. beeyotch, why was my husband willing to die for you just because a man refused to sleep with you? Were you sleeping with my husband, and why when he died do you want to dress up and act the victim at his funeral?)

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 10 Apr 2019 13:37:46
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8057 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2019 :  14:27:39  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

The general idea is that these gods of magic work to get another deity, Velsharoon, restored on Toril by accessing a phylactery of his ON ABEIR via the Tower Terrible in the city of (transferred portion of) Soorenar. This god of necromancy then helps via <many plot devices to be developed> to restore other gods of the dead and other gods in general...who also then begin restoring gods. The island known as the Ship of the Gods during this time will be surrounded by powerful winds that defy even primordials (maybe a benefit provided by Ao) and its here that a lot of gods get reborn by inhabiting a mortal in the fashion of ToT avatars


A few questions there:

-Why Ao would give a benefit to the gods? As far as I know, Ao doesn't play favorites. Unless he has some purpose that affects the whole of Realmspace in some form, he will not give benefits to no one for the sake of it. This points us to another question...

-If Ao gives a benefit to the gods, what benefit he gives to the primordials in return? I mean, even if Ao want to give benefits to the gods for free, the primordial will ask their due. And even Ao fears what the primordials can do if they are denied (it was fear of Asgorath destroying Abeir-Toril what made Ao give the primordials their own world).


quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Gilgeam (alive? Himself?) We know Gilgeam is alive.. but is he Gilgeam? Is he Bane? Is he a love child of Gilgeam's? Is he Iyachtru Xvim? Did the City of Mourktar and the divine artifact called the "Black Lord's Cloak" have anything to do with this? Did the "Black Lord's Cloak" truly manage to drink the blood of a primordial as is whispered?


Enlil said that this second Gilgeam is either his son, but weakened and "changed", or either someone else who has "some measure of my son's power".

Hope this can help.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Khass (alive) A little known cloud god of the Shaaryan barbarians. He's a weather/sky deity. The canon lore we have for him is from the 2nd edition Complete Barbarian's handbook and says
The cloud god Khass continually frustrates the barbarians of Eastern Shaar (in the FORGOTTEN REALMS" setting); for months, he ignores their petitions for rain, then drenches them with downpours for weeks at a time...... (palm trees are fingers of the multi-appendaged Khass)

My thoughts here are to give this god many names amongst different tribes. Khass, Khanu, Khassu, Enkhassu, Enku and thus provide POSSIBLE linkages to Enlil/Anu since we know he's back as well. Also give him a love relationship to Ishtar, and a rumored father relationship to Ramman and Assuran.


What's Anu a different deity according to "On Hallowed Ground"? Anyways, if Khass is indeed Enlil, then he would have been absent from the Realms since... uff, the end of the First Untheric Empire. In the novel, Enlil says that he returned to the Toril only after he saw the magic of the Sundering, and this made him curious about the fate of his son and his people.

So, if Khass has been active before the Sundering, he cannot be related to Enlil.


quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Ki (dead) a nature/earth goddess, she returned in the body of a Shaaryan centaur female who housed her as an avatar. She dies DURING the sundering trying to hold the land together as it transfers back to Toril. There is now a rift in the land of the Eastern Shaar that runs down to the great rift that is known as Ki's Cleft. Some rumors are that Ki was seen wrestling (mating?) with the being known as Grumbar (or perhaps it was the Mulhorandi deity known as Geb... one cannot exactly trust the stories of those who watched). She is rumored by some to have entrusted her power to Maztica. Others say it was Mielikki. The truth is not known.



If you go this route, then you should ignore the Sundering novels (or at least, the Sentinel), as in those novels the Shaar was never exchanged. Just re-created by Grumbar.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Ningal (dead?) A goddess of dreams, hope, marriage, basket weaving, cloth making, sewing, and cooking who was the wife of Nanna-Sin. She appeared to a mortal genasi of the same name, and its rumored that he resided the majority of her time in Abeir upon the island known as the ship of the gods. Maybe at some point this island gets invaded by primordials finally, maybe right around the time of the sundering, leaving her exact disposition (and that of other gods on the "ship of the gods" unknown).


Is this Ningal related to the genasi with the same name who was follower of Selûne before the Spellplague, mentioend in the FRCS?

Anyways, dunno why, but always think about this guy when I read about Ramman.

Also, AFAIK there is nothing about the Council Hills in 4e.




Ok, this is to get to the meat of the other post.


Why would Ao help the gods? They funnel him power. He possibly also fears the primordials to a degree. We know him to be an overpower who SAYS he is all powerful, but maybe he's not. After all, Cyric himself at some point in a novel sees himself as being able to ascend to the power of Ao. Szass Tam himself essentially is trying to recreate the world which would mirror the power of Ao. Maybe he split the world not to save it... but protect his precious gods from getting killed by the primordials. Maybe he "poisoned" the world in which he put the primordials such that they weren't able to siphon divine power any longer somehow, and THAT's what put them to sleep and weak enough that their pets/mounts overcame them. Also, on Entropy, there's a strong hint that Entropy and Pandorym are linked, with Pandorym as being essentially a "shattered" primordial who was shattered by the Imaskari during the coming of the Untheric and Mulhorandi gods... who had arrived in world via finding a loophole past the godswall (which Ao may have helped the mortals to create to give him more control on what gods could come and go?). So, these gods show up, possibly against Ao's will, and he has the Imaskari summon something to threaten them with... but they finish off the Imaskari.

In all, I'm getting the feeling that Ao's powerful, but not as all powerful as he lets on. He has to watch the gods. He has to watch the primordials. He even has to watch the mortals to a small degree. The recent upheavals may have all about him attempting to put some "protections" in place for himself, and possibly he's using the goddess of magic and her servitors to do just that.

On Grumbar and filling in the Shaar with earth. We know that Grumbar was involved. We don't know the HOW. Did he create the earth? Did he simply pull it back from Abeir? I'm not trying to discount the stories of the Sundering, but there's a LOT of leeway that can be taken here. In fact, was Grumbar transferring from THIS side, meanwhile Ki was helping transfer from the Abeir side (and gives her own life to make the transfer safely, protecting the mortals on that land in abeir). My main take away here is to bring back the Shaar, but put a larger rift in place to protect it from the old empires to a degree (Ki's Cleft... which will be in the rough shape of … well, you get the picture I'm sure). Also, ironically, part of Grumbar's involvement in the sundering novels involves him basically being "involved" with another goddess (the orc goddess of caves). I really like the idea of filling in "Ki's Cleft" with a lot of caves that we can then fill in with various dangerous denizens. These caves can all be their own little microcosyms (think the old "Caves of Chaos" concept from basic D&D, but on a MUCH larger and more spread out scale..... and most of these caves don't need to connect to the greater underdark).

On the Khass/Enlil/Anu thing... Enlil and Anu are separate entities in the old deities and demigods. Yet in something canon (sorry would have to find it) they link Enlil and Anu. Also, if we accept the desert of desolation modules that were canonically linked to FR, then Anu was a god of FR. So, were they separate entities? Were they the same? Is the Untheric pantheon a mixture of the "Babylonian" and "Sumerian" pantheons? Was maybe Anu here already in the eastern Shaar under various names? Its not my intent to answer these questions, but to leave it a mystery. It may be that this being calling itself Enlil is actually Anu who consumed Enlil (and Gilgeam's supposed tyrannical kicking out of all other gods may have been for other reasons than are whispered... who truly knows the secrets of the wars between the Babylonian and Sumerian Pantheons... noting Gilgamesh and Anu are Babylonian and Enlil is Sumerian).



On Ningal, yes, I'm relating this to THAT genasi from the 3e FRCG, and what little I can find on the goddess Ningal and her linkage to Nanna-Sin. The idea is that THAT Ningal mortal then takes on the avatar of the goddess Ningal after the transfer. Perhaps even this genasi was born into the world for this purpose and her body is "special" somehow (maybe she even shares the blood of the goddess). Oh, and I have a typo in the above where I typed he and meant she.


Oh, and thanks for the heads up about the Council Hills. I'm thinking this opens up some real opportunities for actually something very interesting. Basically a kingdom of dead spirits, but NOT one from a specific era of Realmslore. You might have Ilythiiri, Arkaiun, Northmen, Imaskari, Mulan, Raumathari, dwarves, centaurs, wemics, ghostwise halflings, Kenku, etc... ALL as spirits active in the area and all with their own agendas and lost knowledge. With the portal to, we could bring over say "northmen" who worship Heleshkigal, or have Durthans of Rashemen setting up their own country here, or have the return of the knights of Myrkul. Maybe folk come there to learn about "spirit magic", which is related to both Incarnum and Binding/Pact Making, but outside the "weave". We could even have involvement with the Eminence of Araunt. I'm not sure WHAT to do with it, but it feels like an opportunity to do something different that doesn't need to be enormously widespread but opens up a field of ideas.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
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Posted - 11 Apr 2019 :  01:05:53  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I've found this product on DM's Guild, Supplemental Empires. I haven't fully read it yet, but I skimmed a bit, and I like what I've read so far. Since it's related with some of your ideas, I wanted to share it here.



Hmmm,and whoever the author is did one for lands of intrigue, the dragon coast, waterdeep... and all are free. Anyone know who Mr. Dream is?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Zeromaru X
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Posted - 11 Apr 2019 :  03:42:12  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dunno. I like some of his ideas, I don't like others. His idea of Djerad Ternesh can be somehow an evolution of my idea of porting Ustraternes into the Realms...

As for the other stuff, I guess I should get those old 2e books... hope they can be found on DM's Guild.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 13 Apr 2019 :  02:52:49  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Took the time to ruminate about this idea...

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

First, the Raven Queen. The main thing I link between these two is that they're both goddess of death, and the imagery of both is very similar (they are both pictures as women with feathered wings, see link). Also, the idea is to leave it open for interpretation within a game whether various gods are "the same being" (i.e. is Hel also Heleshkigal, also Ereshkigal, also the Raven Queen, and also possibly Kiaransalee... or are they splits of an original... or is there something else, like Markustay's idea of the corrupting influence of some artifacts which he named "The Regalia of Winter")



Well, I like the Raven Queen as her own entity, not as some Kiaransalee clone or something like that (not offense intended; I know you're a fan of old Kiara, but I don't like her that much).

I like the link between Ereshkigal and the Raven Queen, tho. It would be a better way to introduce her into the Realms instead of "crazy phantom of memory stuff" the 5e canon devised.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Given that Ereshkigal is a goddess of death from the same pantheon as Inanna and Ishtar (in both she is "her" sister, and in both she takes her sister captive in the Underworld), and there is a city dedicated to her name on "the isle of death" where the "necromancer kings" were from, its my viewpoint that Ereshkigal broke from the other Untheric gods on Toril and went south to Zakhara. Timewise this would have been AFTER her husband Gugalanna was already dead, after she had held Inanna in the underworld, and after she had already married Nergal, and when she leaves the Untheric pantheon Nergal rules as lord of the dead.... until Gilgeam has him AND HIS ENTIRE FAMILY entombed way up by Narfell for some reason following the orcgate wars.


I guess I like this idea. I don't like that relationship to Cyric, tho (but I'm the rare one who doesn't like Cyric at all), so I'm to put that into the "Cyric delusional stuff that isn't actually true and only he believes in" category.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Maybe he "poisoned" the world in which he put the primordials such that they weren't able to siphon divine power any longer somehow, and THAT's what put them to sleep and weak enough that their pets/mounts overcame them.


Assuming they need faith like the gods. That, if we go by canon, they don't need. Primordials aren't Estelars (the race the gods belong to), so they don't need to "eat" the same thing. Even the Elemental Lords (primordials worshiped as "gods") tend to be uncaring with their followers. Whatever they gain from worship, is not "realness" and power.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


Also, on Entropy, there's a strong hint that Entropy and Pandorym are linked, with Pandorym as being essentially a "shattered" primordial who was shattered by the Imaskari during the coming of the Untheric and Mulhorandi gods... who had arrived in world via finding a loophole past the godswall (which Ao may have helped the mortals to create to give him more control on what gods could come and go?). So, these gods show up, possibly against Ao's will, and he has the Imaskari summon something to threaten them with... but they finish off the Imaskari.


Well, a primordial only can take 3 to 5 greater gods on its own. The Mulhorandi and Untheric gods had poor Pandorym/Entropy really outnumbered.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


In all, I'm getting the feeling that Ao's powerful, but not as all powerful as he lets on. He has to watch the gods. He has to watch the primordials. He even has to watch the mortals to a small degree. The recent upheavals may have all about him attempting to put some "protections" in place for himself, and possibly he's using the goddess of magic and her servitors to do just that.



More the reason to give something to the primordials to appease them, in exchange for they letting him allow the gods to roam free in Abeir (at least for a time*). A few primordials wouldn't want this, but at least the most would be appeased and won't interfere. This would make the life a lot easier for the gods there, with Ao paying a price.


**As far as I know, Ed said that Abeir is still a "godless world where dragons raise their banners" post-Second Sundering.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


On Grumbar and filling in the Shaar with earth. We know that Grumbar was involved. We don't know the HOW. Did he create the earth?


AFAIK, in the novel he summons earth from the Elemental Plane of Earth (or something like that) to fill in the Underchasm (not all, but most of it).

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


My main take away here is to bring back the Shaar, but put a larger rift in place to protect it from the old empires to a degree (Ki's Cleft... which will be in the rough shape of … well, you get the picture I'm sure).


Well, canonically, their defenses are Tymanther and Okoth (both foil Unther and Mulhorand, respectively). But I like the idea a of a larger rift—part of the old Underchasm still there (I'm part of those rare few that preferred an interesting chasm over a boring plain).

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


Also, ironically, part of Grumbar's involvement in the sundering novels involves him basically being "involved" with another goddess (the orc goddess of caves).


Yeah, he was in love with Luthic, IIRC. He wanted to stay on Toril because of that (the other Elemental Lords seem to have went to Abeir, as per the novel's lore).

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


On the Khass/Enlil/Anu thing... Enlil and Anu are separate entities in the old deities and demigods. Yet in something canon (sorry would have to find it) they link Enlil and Anu.


According to On Hallowed Ground (Planescape sourcebook), the Babylonian and Sumerian gods were formerly the same beings, all members of just one pantheon. But they became two different beings long ago, because of the beliefs of their followers, and the divide is too much for them to like their other selves, or even acknowledge they were once one with them.

So, Enlil and Anu maybe were once the same being, but now they are not, they are different entities altogether, and they dislike each other, to boot.

You're into something, however, when you point out that the Enlil that appeared during the Second Sundering is... suspicious, to say the least. The fact that he chose the Vayemniri over his own people (save for those who rebelled against Gilgeam) is weird. So, while the original Enlil cannot be Anu, this new Enlil can be Anu. And I guess Anu can be Khass.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


On Ningal, yes, I'm relating this to THAT genasi from the 3e FRCG, and what little I can find on the goddess Ningal and her linkage to Nanna-Sin. The idea is that THAT Ningal mortal then takes on the avatar of the goddess Ningal after the transfer. Perhaps even this genasi was born into the world for this purpose and her body is "special" somehow (maybe she even shares the blood of the goddess). Oh, and I have a typo in the above where I typed he and meant she.


That would be interesting. I like that character, and I don't like for her to die unceremoniously by a meteor crash.



quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas



Oh, and thanks for the heads up about the Council Hills. I'm thinking this opens up some real opportunities for actually something very interesting. Basically a kingdom of dead spirits, but NOT one from a specific era of Realmslore. You might have Ilythiiri, Arkaiun, Northmen, Imaskari, Mulan, Raumathari, dwarves, centaurs, wemics, ghostwise halflings, Kenku, etc... ALL as spirits active in the area and all with their own agendas and lost knowledge. With the portal to, we could bring over say "northmen" who worship Heleshkigal, or have Durthans of Rashemen setting up their own country here, or have the return of the knights of Myrkul. Maybe folk come there to learn about "spirit magic", which is related to both Incarnum and Binding/Pact Making, but outside the "weave". We could even have involvement with the Eminence of Araunt. I'm not sure WHAT to do with it, but it feels like an opportunity to do something different that doesn't need to be enormously widespread but opens up a field of ideas.


Something like the small village of Wandering Stones in Laerakond? You should read the short story of the same name (from Realms of the Dead anthology). Guess that would give you some ideas.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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sleyvas
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Posted - 13 Apr 2019 :  17:40:31  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Took the time to ruminate about this idea...

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

First, the Raven Queen. The main thing I link between these two is that they're both goddess of death, and the imagery of both is very similar (they are both pictures as women with feathered wings, see link). Also, the idea is to leave it open for interpretation within a game whether various gods are "the same being" (i.e. is Hel also Heleshkigal, also Ereshkigal, also the Raven Queen, and also possibly Kiaransalee... or are they splits of an original... or is there something else, like Markustay's idea of the corrupting influence of some artifacts which he named "The Regalia of Winter")



Well, I like the Raven Queen as her own entity, not as some Kiaransalee clone or something like that (not offense intended; I know you're a fan of old Kiara, but I don't like her that much).

I like the link between Ereshkigal and the Raven Queen, tho. It would be a better way to introduce her into the Realms instead of "crazy phantom of memory stuff" the 5e canon devised.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Given that Ereshkigal is a goddess of death from the same pantheon as Inanna and Ishtar (in both she is "her" sister, and in both she takes her sister captive in the Underworld), and there is a city dedicated to her name on "the isle of death" where the "necromancer kings" were from, its my viewpoint that Ereshkigal broke from the other Untheric gods on Toril and went south to Zakhara. Timewise this would have been AFTER her husband Gugalanna was already dead, after she had held Inanna in the underworld, and after she had already married Nergal, and when she leaves the Untheric pantheon Nergal rules as lord of the dead.... until Gilgeam has him AND HIS ENTIRE FAMILY entombed way up by Narfell for some reason following the orcgate wars.


I guess I like this idea. I don't like that relationship to Cyric, tho (but I'm the rare one who doesn't like Cyric at all), so I'm to put that into the "Cyric delusional stuff that isn't actually true and only he believes in" category.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Maybe he "poisoned" the world in which he put the primordials such that they weren't able to siphon divine power any longer somehow, and THAT's what put them to sleep and weak enough that their pets/mounts overcame them.


Assuming they need faith like the gods. That, if we go by canon, they don't need. Primordials aren't Estelars (the race the gods belong to), so they don't need to "eat" the same thing. Even the Elemental Lords (primordials worshiped as "gods") tend to be uncaring with their followers. Whatever they gain from worship, is not "realness" and power.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


Also, on Entropy, there's a strong hint that Entropy and Pandorym are linked, with Pandorym as being essentially a "shattered" primordial who was shattered by the Imaskari during the coming of the Untheric and Mulhorandi gods... who had arrived in world via finding a loophole past the godswall (which Ao may have helped the mortals to create to give him more control on what gods could come and go?). So, these gods show up, possibly against Ao's will, and he has the Imaskari summon something to threaten them with... but they finish off the Imaskari.


Well, a primordial only can take 3 to 5 greater gods on its own. The Mulhorandi and Untheric gods had poor Pandorym/Entropy really outnumbered.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


In all, I'm getting the feeling that Ao's powerful, but not as all powerful as he lets on. He has to watch the gods. He has to watch the primordials. He even has to watch the mortals to a small degree. The recent upheavals may have all about him attempting to put some "protections" in place for himself, and possibly he's using the goddess of magic and her servitors to do just that.



More the reason to give something to the primordials to appease them, in exchange for they letting him allow the gods to roam free in Abeir (at least for a time*). A few primordials wouldn't want this, but at least the most would be appeased and won't interfere. This would make the life a lot easier for the gods there, with Ao paying a price.


**As far as I know, Ed said that Abeir is still a "godless world where dragons raise their banners" post-Second Sundering.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


On Grumbar and filling in the Shaar with earth. We know that Grumbar was involved. We don't know the HOW. Did he create the earth?


AFAIK, in the novel he summons earth from the Elemental Plane of Earth (or something like that) to fill in the Underchasm (not all, but most of it).

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


My main take away here is to bring back the Shaar, but put a larger rift in place to protect it from the old empires to a degree (Ki's Cleft... which will be in the rough shape of … well, you get the picture I'm sure).


Well, canonically, their defenses are Tymanther and Okoth (both foil Unther and Mulhorand, respectively). But I like the idea a of a larger rift—part of the old Underchasm still there (I'm part of those rare few that preferred an interesting chasm over a boring plain).

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


Also, ironically, part of Grumbar's involvement in the sundering novels involves him basically being "involved" with another goddess (the orc goddess of caves).


Yeah, he was in love with Luthic, IIRC. He wanted to stay on Toril because of that (the other Elemental Lords seem to have went to Abeir, as per the novel's lore).

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


On the Khass/Enlil/Anu thing... Enlil and Anu are separate entities in the old deities and demigods. Yet in something canon (sorry would have to find it) they link Enlil and Anu.


According to On Hallowed Ground (Planescape sourcebook), the Babylonian and Sumerian gods were formerly the same beings, all members of just one pantheon. But they became two different beings long ago, because of the beliefs of their followers, and the divide is too much for them to like their other selves, or even acknowledge they were once one with them.

So, Enlil and Anu maybe were once the same being, but now they are not, they are different entities altogether, and they dislike each other, to boot.

You're into something, however, when you point out that the Enlil that appeared during the Second Sundering is... suspicious, to say the least. The fact that he chose the Vayemniri over his own people (save for those who rebelled against Gilgeam) is weird. So, while the original Enlil cannot be Anu, this new Enlil can be Anu. And I guess Anu can be Khass.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


On Ningal, yes, I'm relating this to THAT genasi from the 3e FRCG, and what little I can find on the goddess Ningal and her linkage to Nanna-Sin. The idea is that THAT Ningal mortal then takes on the avatar of the goddess Ningal after the transfer. Perhaps even this genasi was born into the world for this purpose and her body is "special" somehow (maybe she even shares the blood of the goddess). Oh, and I have a typo in the above where I typed he and meant she.


That would be interesting. I like that character, and I don't like for her to die unceremoniously by a meteor crash.



quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas



Oh, and thanks for the heads up about the Council Hills. I'm thinking this opens up some real opportunities for actually something very interesting. Basically a kingdom of dead spirits, but NOT one from a specific era of Realmslore. You might have Ilythiiri, Arkaiun, Northmen, Imaskari, Mulan, Raumathari, dwarves, centaurs, wemics, ghostwise halflings, Kenku, etc... ALL as spirits active in the area and all with their own agendas and lost knowledge. With the portal to, we could bring over say "northmen" who worship Heleshkigal, or have Durthans of Rashemen setting up their own country here, or have the return of the knights of Myrkul. Maybe folk come there to learn about "spirit magic", which is related to both Incarnum and Binding/Pact Making, but outside the "weave". We could even have involvement with the Eminence of Araunt. I'm not sure WHAT to do with it, but it feels like an opportunity to do something different that doesn't need to be enormously widespread but opens up a field of ideas.


Something like the small village of Wandering Stones in Laerakond? You should read the short story of the same name (from Realms of the Dead anthology). Guess that would give you some ideas.



On the Raven Queen and all those other entities and the options I gave, I'm most favored of the idea of the "Regalia of Winter" artifacts idea that Markustay came up with. I do like the idea of equating Ereshkigal to the Raven Queen though as well. Those too are almost a PERFECT fit for each other in what research I've done, and as you say, it makes a great way to introduce her. Moreso, for me, it makes a great way to introduce her AND tie her to Kelemvor (she's used to "co-ruling" in the underworld, and Kelemvor's lonely since Mystra died... and honestly, the hints I get are that the Mystra that's back may NOT be Midnight...

Anyway, the "Regalia of Winter" idea is tied to the concept that many powerful entities have been "corrupted" by some kind of magical artifacts (the "Ring of Winter" in the realms being one such artifact possibly). Personally, I might say also link it to darkness and shadow (so, Regalia of Benighted Winter). Some of them overcome the seduction of the artifacts, some don't. Some actually embrace the power. Into this hat, I'd throw more females than males, just because more names show up. I'd also try to make them more fey than non-fey. The ideas that come to my mind are Kiaransalee, Queen of Air & Darkness (i.e. Auril/Aurilandur in the realms... as Aurilandur she's "Queen of the Frost Sprites"), the Raven Queen, Tarsellis Meunniduin (god of the snow elves who once sided with Lolth, dragon 155 & 236), Fenmarel Mestarine, Ulutiu, and possibly even Gruumsh, Talos, Shar and Lolth. Maybe some of these entities "free themselves" by purging themselves (Talos removing his eye for example, and maybe Corellon actually frees Gruumsh by striking out his eye). Some entities become split by their interactions in order to purge themselves (Ubtao and Eshowdow for instance), and some of this could be linked to ideas like the famed "Dawn Cataclysm".

SIDEBAR: There's also a "King of the Frost Sprites" from Dragon 236, and said "King" is ALSO friends with Tarsellis Meunniduin. It might make a good story if when Aurilandur became corrupted he sought the help of Tarsellis, who ALSO became corrupted. It might even be interesting if Moander was behind said corruption. This might also be why the elven pantheon in particular has SUCH a hate for Moander.

SIDEBAR: I also like the idea of the pairing of certain gods, even if their portfolios might make you think the two would butt heads. For instance, I like the idea that perhaps Kiaransalee and Velsharoon strike up a relationship while in Abeir (a kind of odd combo of a dark elf and a Halruaan blooded human... but maybe Velsharoon was once involved with a Crintri female from Dambrath when he was young... could be a good story). Leira and Mask are another I really favor.

Moving on to next, not sure which piece you don't like about Cyric. If its that he was ruling in her realm... I'd put that to "he did for a little while, because Nergal was gone and she was dead". If its about Cyric having a belief that he could become as powerful as Ao... yeah, I hate Cyric too. I'm personally of the belief that Leira and Mask were both working together and "infected" Cyric. When Leira was "killed" by Godsbane (i.e. Mask), he simply worked with her to absorb/hide her essence, until she was eventually "given a new form" in the "body" of the artifact known as the Cyrinishad... which then "infected" Cyric with his own lie. Works perfect in my book ... god of intrigues and god of lies working against Cyric in a great intrigue of lies.

On the next idea, yeah, primordials don't NEED faith. However, its probably something that they can learn to use... and with it, get more powerful. Gods are probably just more efficient with it. Other entities are probably similar in this respect (i.e. demons, devils, primal spirits, archfey, etc...), and EVENTUALLY maybe some of these BECOME gods and learn to "convert the energy easier". This idea of getting faith energy may have been behind the dawn war. Perhaps primordials need fanatical type faith (as in murdery/sacrificey/starve yourself/torture ). This could also explain why in Abeir, when the gods first get there, they can't create normal clerics. They have to teach people to be "priests" who have to push the concept of sacrifice.


Abeir may once again be a godless world post second sundering. The idea for sending the gods over isn't to make the gods powerful there. Its to HELP the mortals survive and not become slaves. We know Ao is a person who isn't pleased with the gods when they abuse the mortals (its part of why the ToT was done), so whether he forced the sundering to happen OR he was forced into letting it happen (he may not have the power to stop it), he may have sent the gods over to protect the humans... and if some died... in his mind, oh well, that's their purpose.

On the novels saying that Grumbar specifically summons earth from the elemental plane of earth.... I don't know that it specifically says that. They deliver the Eye of Gruumsh and put it in Grumbar's Hand at the temple. The hand crushes it leaving crushed quartz falling. Then the only reference I see to the Shaar filling says

Beyond thecastle stretched and endless plain of raw brown earth, still churning and billowing upward as it filled the vast void that had once been the underchasm.

Also, and this JUST occurred to me, we KNOW that Ki was killed in the Orcgate wars but we don't know WHO killed her. The storyline in the sentinel has something to do with basically "Grumbar" and "Luthic" (the orc goddess of caves) having had a relationship in the past. If Ki was killed by Luthic in the orcgate wars, and I'm having Ki be part of the transfer ... sacrificing herself to stabilize the transfer of the sundering, but leaving behind "Ki's Cleft"... it not only fits a link to Luthic... it also fits the idea that Grumbar was kind of doing this for "love" of a goddess... which also fits in with the whole Sune involvement. I think I actually like this idea more now.

On the Pandorym/Entropy being outnumbered. Totally agree.

On the idea of liking the rift and the fact that just a rolling plain is boring... Totally agree. I also like the idea that there be earthmotes above said rift AND I like the idea that the dwarves expand into this area from the connecting great rift. Maybe even the dwarves and the dragonborn of Tymanther strike up a relationship? That could maybe use some development. Give both sides some allies, and maybe even open up some interesting trade possibilities. Maybe Tymanther starts some trading via underdark routes? Good idea or bad?


Oh, and will reread the story of Wandering Stones. I am really liking the idea of the Council Hills being filled with spirits with their own agendas from MANY eras of Toril's past. It maybe gives a reason for having developed all this history, and maybe those entities even work against one another, but will join in purpose against outside threats. Having this become a center point for worshippers of the Raven Queen works for me (especially with the nearby "Blackfeather Barrens" Kenku of Veldorn/Beastlands), and I might have some metahel worshippers of my metahel version of Hela named Heleshkigal come through the portal on accident. It could also be interesting since this area was once a centerpoint for the worship of Myrkul as well (with the Theocracy of Eltabrannar), so there might be some spirits who still worship him that come back as well as the Knights of the Eternal dragon from Castle Al'Hanar and the dracolich known as the Everlasting Wyrm (Xavarathimius) created by the witches of Rashemen to guard Eltab's prison in the Sharawood. In fact, how I was saying earlier that maybe the Raven Queen might get involved with Kelemvor... she might just as equally be "involved" with Myrkul... and both of them might just need to watch their backs.


By the way, thank you very much for the feedback. As you can see, discussion with others helps me get ideas. They may not all be good, but its at least fun to pontificate.


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
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Posted - 13 Apr 2019 :  18:49:24  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You know what... it just occurred to me in thinking about "Ki's Cleft" … and filling it with dwarves from the great rift... and having the dwarves possibly befriend the dragonborn of Tymanther...

So, if I'm theorizing that the Shaar went to Abeir and came back... and I'm theorizing that while there a bunch of Chessentans, Shaaryans, and Mulans manage to get setup down there... what's to say some dragonborn might not setup there as well. Would it be interesting for Tymanther to suddenly find itself with additional allies, possibly ones who saw opportunity in this new land and escaped their dragon oppressors. Maybe they don't have the traditions of the Vayemniri, because they only JUST freed themselves in the last century. Maybe even the humans came to be their allies against the dragon oppressors. Maybe they even came to worship Khass (under the name Khassanu or Enkhassu or even Enlil or Anu) the "Sky god" similar to the Vayemniri (an exchange of worship for protection). Maybe they don't even recognize him as a "god" and think he's a returned Dawn Titan come to protect them. Or maybe we could do something different with them. Throwing the idea out at least for discussion.

What if these dragonborn were blessed with things like wings. Maybe they're latent sorcery is awakened?

Also, there's areas of Unther that actually held things like a dragon on the verge of becoming divine. Maldraedior "the Millenium Dragon" had human worshippers and is noted in the 3e dragons of Faerun as having 3 levels of Dragon Ascendant... which is specifically a prestige class aimed towards dragons becoming gods. If these were dragons that maybe had NOT broken away and were maybe even from another part of the world that had never heard of the Vayemniri... and Maldraedior comes in and wipes out their current lord. Just another option.

Along similar lines, thinking some genasi may escape Shyr and take up residence in the Shaar, which fits the idea I was having that the region have a focus on elemental magic.


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 13 Apr 2019 19:14:50
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sleyvas
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Posted - 13 Apr 2019 :  20:18:22  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
On that last topic with Maldraedior, one of the things that I had previously stated was that a goal was to have the "gods of magic" working towards establishing magic in the lands where their mortals dwell, at least so that they can defend themselves. Ironically, Maldraedior is a servant of one of these, but also ironically on the road to becoming divine. According to the original 1e draconomicon, Maldraedior is "the last true worshipper of a draconic demipower, Kalzareinad, minor deity of draconic magic". So, that being said, in theory this PROBABLY means that when the Time of Troubles happened, Maldraedior probably was an avatar. He's also over 4000 years old, so he was alive when the Mulan gods arrived and threw down he Imaskari (at least 150 years old at the time at a minimum). Also, interestingly enough, Maldraedior

A) knows of the "Banespear", an artifact which can be used to kill Gilgeam... and possibly other powerful tyrannical beings or semi-divine entities?. He also hated the Cult of Tiamat and Gilgeam

B) doesn't really adhere to any major alignment and is mostly neutral, with some selfish tendencies

C) Is mainly concerned with gathering knowledge, magic, and serving his god however he can

Maldraedior was from the town of Dalath in Unther


Just to put out what information there is, here's some snippets

more on Dalath can be found on page 43 of Old Empires (essentially its a mining town full of mistreated slaves on the surface, most folk don't know of the millenia old dragon beneath them)

Maldraedior lives in a temple complex beneath the streets of Dalath, a mining town some 40 miles north of the eastern part of the Smoking Mountains of Unther. The existence of this temple is a carefully guarded secret. Maldraedior has lived within it for nearly 3,000 years, and during this time he has been served by members of two families: #151;the Ramahiresh and Kalmarak families.

These folk regard the dragon as a deity, and serve him faithfully and fanatically. A father will bring his son to the Great Chamber (area 13 on the map) when he reaches the age of maturity, to be presented to Maldraedior, and the combination of the dragon#146;s fear and awe effects (and use of charm person spells) make the impressionable youth a devoted servant of the wyrm.

<snip>
Role-Playing Maldraedior
Maldraedior is incredibly old. His rheumy, sunken eyes have seen over 4,000 summers of desert heat, battle, and blood in the warring Empires. He has grown weary, jaded, and cynical. This affects his alignment and his demeanor. Blue dragons are usually Lawful Evil, but Maldraedior has passed beyond that. He regards Chaos and Law as forces that ebb and flow, and he has become indifferent to their struggle. Good and Evil he regards
slightly differently: #151;he thinks they are irrelevancies drummed up by effete philosophers to waste time. The values of good he spurns, especially if irritable, although he does not actively follow the values of evil. Overall, Maldraedior is an uncaring creature, sometimes spiteful and malicious. His alignment is best given as Neutral (Evil).

Maldraedior has deep pride in himself, but he also has something very unusual in a dragon - a half-deprecating, laconic sense of humor. He may even crack the odd joke at his own expense (but others had better be more careful!). He despises jesters and pranksters, such as copper and faerie dragons. He responds well to people who have killed such pests. Maldraedior respects people who stand up for themselves. He likes flattery, even demands it, but he hates real grovelers.

Interests and Motivations
Maldraedior has only two real interests: knowledge and magic. Maldraedior has very extensive interests as a sage; these are outlined more fully below. Maldraedior is always interested in the acquisition of magic that can scry, heal, or enable astral or extraplanar travel. He also badly wants to learn how to planar travel with his mirror, having been unable to master this function. Maldraedior will be ready to provide information in return for such help.

The Last Faithful Servant
Maldraedior has one absolute passion that he will not reveal save in exceptional circumstances. Maldraedior is the last true worshiper of a draconic demipower, Kalzareinad, minor deity of draconic magic (Neutral [Evil]).

It is a splendid irony that Maldraedior is himself revered by humans who consider him a god, while Maldraedior#146;s only major reason for staying alive is his role as the last servant and worshiper of this all-but-lost demipower. Maldraedior passionately reveres this deity and hopes that by acquiring magic he may contact other dragons (primarily blues) and convert them to Kalzareinad#146;s cult.

He will keep this secret reverence to himself at all costs. Details of this cult can be improvised by the DM if necessary.

Maldraedior#146;s Knowledge
This dragon has been around 4,000 years and has a network of spies, plus powerful magical spells and items for scrying. Basically, he knows anything you want him to know. However, some of his information may be dated and thus partly wrong. In Unther, consider the following possibilities:
1. Treasure Hoards: An ancient wyrm might know the locations of many lost hoards.

2. Genealogies: Maldraedior has first-hand knowledge of the genealogies of nobles in Mulhorand and Unther, where these matters are of major importance. A powerful person exposed as illegitimate or related to murderers or worse would be struck down if the information could be proved true.

3. Special or Lost Magic: Maldraedior has several such magics; but there are some that he doesn#146;t particularly want or need (such as a magical net that can trap and banish a hakeshar) or can#146;t use (class-specific items, for example). This is a special case of the treasure hoard knowledge.

4. The Banespear: Maldraedior knows of a spear, separated into shaft and head and hidden apart, which can slay the vile tyrant Gilgeam with a single strike into the side. Both parts are carefully hidden and protected by monsters and traps of great power and peril. This is suitable only for PCs of high level, and only if you can handle the turbulence caused by a successful assassination of Gilgeam.
5. The Cult of Tiamat: Maldraedior hates this cult. While he would not want to see an ancient wyrm like Guyanothaz (Old Empires, page 41) killed, he would like to see the bullying cult put to the sword. With his help the PCs could inflict deadly blows on these Chaotic Evil foes.

6. Clerical Politics: Through his network of spies and sages, Maldraedior is especially well informed about the cults opposed to Gilgeam. He could furnish the PCs with contacts of fellow rebels against the tyrant. He may, however, balk at helping establish contact with the clerics of Ishtar, whom he regards as intolerably good.



Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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LordofBones
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Posted - 14 Apr 2019 :  02:59:22  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Kiaransalee has a past record of mariticide, which I doubt would make the Lich-Lord consider any kind of relationship with her. There is a goddess of undead love though - Evening Glory - but I get the feeling she's not exactly popular with Kelemvor, Lathander or Sune.
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sleyvas
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Posted - 14 Apr 2019 :  18:39:12  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Kiaransalee has a past record of mariticide, which I doubt would make the Lich-Lord consider any kind of relationship with her. There is a goddess of undead love though - Evening Glory - but I get the feeling she's not exactly popular with Kelemvor, Lathander or Sune.



Maybe the danger is the draw.

Though man... that idea of Evening Glory.... now THAT is interesting. She's not a Faerunian Pantheon god, but if I'm working in non-Faerunian areas of the realms. Damned if now you got me thinking. I could see the two sharing temples, and actually not getting in one another's way AS MUCH as it would be with Kiaransalee.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
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Posted - 15 Apr 2019 :  02:57:42  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


Moving on to next, not sure which piece you don't like about Cyric.



What I don't like about Cyric is, well, Cyric. I don't like that kind of characters whose sole characteristic is "I'm evil, mwehehe", and the authors grant them every advantage and no setbacks "cuz evulz is kwel". They don't make compelling or even attractive characters for me. Same reason I dislike Tiamat or Gilgeam.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


On the next idea, yeah, primordials don't NEED faith. However, its probably something that they can learn to use... and with it, get more powerful. Gods are probably just more efficient with it. Other entities are probably similar in this respect (i.e. demons, devils, primal spirits, archfey, etc...), and EVENTUALLY maybe some of these BECOME gods and learn to "convert the energy easier". This idea of getting faith energy may have been behind the dawn war. Perhaps primordials need fanatical type faith (as in murdery/sacrificey/starve yourself/torture ). This could also explain why in Abeir, when the gods first get there, they can't create normal clerics. They have to teach people to be "priests" who have to push the concept of sacrifice.



I guess a good idea would be to check faiths of known primordial, such as the Elemental Lords or Ubtao, an compare differences with the faiths of traditional gods.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


We know Ao is a person who isn't pleased with the gods when they abuse the mortals



We also know that Ao doesn't cares about mortals at all. He only cares for the gods doing their jobs and upholding their portfolios. So, he will abide the gods helping slaves, but he will also will abide evil gods enslaving people. He does, in fact. He allows gods such as Gilgeam. So, he will also abide primordials doing their stuff as long as they uphold their portfolios (or whatever they have).


quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


On the idea of liking the rift and the fact that just a rolling plain is boring... Totally agree. I also like the idea that there be earthmotes above said rift AND I like the idea that the dwarves expand into this area from the connecting great rift. Maybe even the dwarves and the dragonborn of Tymanther strike up a relationship? That could maybe use some development. Give both sides some allies, and maybe even open up some interesting trade possibilities. Maybe Tymanther starts some trading via underdark routes? Good idea or bad?



Well, the Tymantherans need could use more trade allies, now that they lost High Imaskar, and probably Chessenta (or at least, half of it). And the dragonborn tend to get along well with dwarves (I have a theory about that, shared in my topic about the dragonborn clans).

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


So, if I'm theorizing that the Shaar went to Abeir and came back... and I'm theorizing that while there a bunch of Chessentans, Shaaryans, and Mulans manage to get setup down there... what's to say some dragonborn might not setup there as well. Would it be interesting for Tymanther to suddenly find itself with additional allies, possibly ones who saw opportunity in this new land and escaped their dragon oppressors. Maybe they don't have the traditions of the Vayemniri, because they only JUST freed themselves in the last century. Maybe even the humans came to be their allies against the dragon oppressors. Maybe they even came to worship Khass (under the name Khassanu or Enkhassu or even Enlil or Anu) the "Sky god" similar to the Vayemniri (an exchange of worship for protection). Maybe they don't even recognize him as a "god" and think he's a returned Dawn Titan come to protect them. Or maybe we could do something different with them. Throwing the idea out at least for discussion.



I guess this will be complicated. Dragonborn and gods are really difficult to couple while staying in canon. They are prone to rebellion (guess, some remain of dragon's hubris). And primordial are even cruelest masters than dragons. So, we can't use the special case of Enlil as the guide here.

In canon, the worship of Enlil in Tymanther is less "worship me, I am a god" and more like "I will help you if you help me... please" situation. I guess Bahamut can be of more help if you want to go that way; as the dragonborn who worship him do so because they want to worship him. Though, because they felt he is an ancestor figure, not because he is a god.

Sadly, the cult of Bahamut in Tymanther started during the "Lost Century", and WotC NDA'ed all lore about that time, to use as a guideline.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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sleyvas
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Posted - 15 Apr 2019 :  18:13:56  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X


quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


On the next idea, yeah, primordials don't NEED faith. However, its probably something that they can learn to use... and with it, get more powerful. Gods are probably just more efficient with it. Other entities are probably similar in this respect (i.e. demons, devils, primal spirits, archfey, etc...), and EVENTUALLY maybe some of these BECOME gods and learn to "convert the energy easier". This idea of getting faith energy may have been behind the dawn war. Perhaps primordials need fanatical type faith (as in murdery/sacrificey/starve yourself/torture ). This could also explain why in Abeir, when the gods first get there, they can't create normal clerics. They have to teach people to be "priests" who have to push the concept of sacrifice.



I guess a good idea would be to check faiths of known primordial, such as the Elemental Lords or Ubtao, an compare differences with the faiths of traditional gods.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


We know Ao is a person who isn't pleased with the gods when they abuse the mortals



We also know that Ao doesn't cares about mortals at all. He only cares for the gods doing their jobs and upholding their portfolios. So, he will abide the gods helping slaves, but he will also will abide evil gods enslaving people. He does, in fact. He allows gods such as Gilgeam. So, he will also abide primordials doing their stuff as long as they uphold their portfolios (or whatever they have).


quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


On the idea of liking the rift and the fact that just a rolling plain is boring... Totally agree. I also like the idea that there be earthmotes above said rift AND I like the idea that the dwarves expand into this area from the connecting great rift. Maybe even the dwarves and the dragonborn of Tymanther strike up a relationship? That could maybe use some development. Give both sides some allies, and maybe even open up some interesting trade possibilities. Maybe Tymanther starts some trading via underdark routes? Good idea or bad?



Well, the Tymantherans need could use more trade allies, now that they lost High Imaskar, and probably Chessenta (or at least, half of it). And the dragonborn tend to get along well with dwarves (I have a theory about that, shared in my topic about the dragonborn clans).




Good points, so I figured I'd discuss these 3. On the comparing how Primordials can gain faith energy, it may be different rules in Abeir specifically set by Ao to weaken them (my thoughts here were primordials were maybe becoming enough of a threat to HIM that he split them off to Abeir and tweaked the rules they could use to get faith energy). So comparing how Primordials can get faith energy on Toril to that of Abeir may be different. That being said, IF the faiths of Maztica are also Primordials (which comes back to the Ubtao/Qotal similarity), then we see that many of those faiths gain power through human sacrifice. Also, some of those primordials that gain faith energy may also be very careful of it to prevent giving Ao too much control over them (just a thought) since their concerns are more on another plane.

Along the same lines, as long as we're talking spellcasting, using "weave energy" on Abeir may actually involve having a "battery" of sorts physically on hand that you bring to some interaction of ley lines to periodically "recharge". Thus, while I was theorizing that the gods of magic in Abeir were setting up a weave... it may have been more like they were setting up "charging stations" like you'd see in our world for electric cars. These charging stations might even be temples or small shrines to the gods of magic. This would also kind of match up with the story concept we saw wherein Gilgeam himself seemed to have to use some kind of item to cast spells. It would also fit in with the concepts of magic that we see throughtout Maztica and Anchorome (if we theorize that at one point in the past these MAY have been in Abeir before.... after all, we don't KNOW that they were in Toril before the 1360's), wherein all magic is item based (Pluma, Hishna, Fetishist, Talismanic, etc.. all revolve around crafting items to use in spellcasting). This also very much fits with the 3rd edition ideas of incarnum casting wherein you "bind" spirits to body slots normally used by magic items.



On the idea that Ao cares about how mortals are treated. Very true your response. He is very concerned that mortals not be mistreated by gods in a way that doesn't agree with their portfolios . This makes me think that he gets his own power somehow from enforcing this. My idea that he would send the gods over to protect the mortals might still fit though if he were needing to enact some kind of change on Abeir via mortals, even if it were simply to have the mortals come back after some time and provide worship energy to gods so that he can then reap from those gods in a century.


On the idea of dragonborn and genasi in the Shaar from Abeir coming over to Toril, yeah, I think I'm going ot develop it, but at the same time not necessarily have them having any deific links. They might have simply setup in these lands because they could get away from the dragons and primordials, and may have even served as mercenaries. I think I'm going to toss some of my ideas I'd had about changing Cimbar and Soorenar and instead incorporate them into this region (though I may still put some protections around the Tower Terrible in Soorenar that maybe kept Abeirans out of portions of that town).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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