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 Renaming of cities after they receive a mythal
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Cosmar
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Posted - 07 Apr 2019 :  20:23:44  Show Profile Send Cosmar a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
So, in the past, it seemed every city that eventually received a mythal of some kind was renamed to "Myth Something-or-other."

Now there are some places that received mythals, but their names didn't change - only Silverymoon and Evereska come to mind.

Is there a particular reason that the naming convention doesn't always apply?

Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 08 Apr 2019 :  02:38:25  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think part of it is that Silverymoon and Evereska were not originally written as cities with mythals.

The Myth Glaurach article, in the Mintiper's Chapbook series, had this notation: "Myth Glaurach was intended to be the first of three allied cities wrapped in myth, but planned wizardly mythals over Ascalhorn and Silverymoon were never raised."

Ed himself said there were rumors of a mythal in Silverymoon, but did not confirm it -- though he did described the many magic wards protecting the city, and say they were akin to a mythal.

So it was canon in 2E that there was no mythal there. (Yes, it could be argued that there was a true mythal in Silverymoon, but then you'd have to explain why someone planned a second mythal on top of the first)

Evereska wasn't mentioned a lot in 2E lore, but I don't recall any mention of it having a mythal, either.

And then 3E happened, and suddenly both places had a mythal. It was one of the many retcons of 3E.

Mythal lore prior to 3E also failed to mention anything about keystones that anchor and control the mythal... But then someone decided that made for a nifty plot device, so again, prior canon be damned, we're going with kewl!

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 08 Apr 2019 02:38:57
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 08 Apr 2019 :  02:40:32  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
(I did suggest that maybe Silverymoon was the site of an older, dormant mythal, and that the years of heavy magic use and living in the area were enough to "awaken" it -- but that was an attempt to explain a retcon, and is not supported by any existing lore)

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George Krashos
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Posted - 08 Apr 2019 :  05:59:15  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As often occurs, Wooly has the right of it. In 2E the designers were at great pains to differentiate High Magic mythals, wizardly mythals and layers of wards that were akin to a mythal. Then in the 3E Realms people wanted to write novels about Evereska, Shade and the daemonfey and mythals became omnipresent. Such are the joys of shared worlds.

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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 08 Apr 2019 :  14:48:03  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think Wooly's fix works for Silverymoon, but I'd say there is too much lore on Evereska's mythal to go the same route. The problem is that those book were very specific about the mythal and several of those specifics were direct changes from the past.
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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 08 Apr 2019 :  14:54:49  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

I think Wooly's fix works for Silverymoon, but I'd say there is too much lore on Evereska's mythal to go the same route. The problem is that those book were very specific about the mythal and several of those specifics were direct changes from the past.


My own fix is kind of just a redefinition of what a mythal is. I use the term like Mythal - the big thing that is famous and then mythal magic. Pretty much any magic that consumes other magic or something of nature - including vitality to persist. Mantle spells as described in SotM are an example as are the mantle stones from Dragon Magazines. The parallel Mythals 3rd Ed lore in that they both have personal wards but one requires a focus stone while the other requires only a body. The focus is the more stable version. Similarly, many wards like in VGtATM or wardmists are mythal magic, which accounts for Silverymoon. When you look, there are actually quite a number of powerful spells from 2nd Ed. that create a sustained effect by consuming something else. These all are forms of mythal magic.
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Cosmar
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Posted - 08 Apr 2019 :  17:33:19  Show Profile Send Cosmar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the info, all!

I was wondering whether the naming convention had to do with whether the "mythals" over certain places were true Elven High Magic mythals or simpler wizardly mythals.

But in that case, the mythal of Myth Drannor wouldn't have counted either, so.
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TBeholder
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Posted - 08 Apr 2019 :  21:50:49  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

I think Wooly's fix works for Silverymoon,
Either that, or all those wards caused much unintended interference with various other magic, especially after ToT.
Until one good day Alustriel really fed up with this and figured out how to replace the entire cluster-fluffle of oversized wards with one proper mythal (presumably absorbing wards to feed it and save casters' efforts).
quote:
but I'd say there is too much lore on Evereska's mythal to go the same route. The problem is that those book were very specific about the mythal and several of those specifics were direct changes from the past.
Well, nothing specifically said Evereska did not have one, no?

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 08 Apr 2019 :  21:56:40  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

I think Wooly's fix works for Silverymoon,
Either that, or all those wards caused much unintended interference with various other magic, especially after ToT.
Until one good day Alustriel really fed up with this and figured out how to replace the entire cluster-fluffle of oversized wards with one proper mythal (presumably absorbing wards to feed it and save casters' efforts).
quote:
but I'd say there is too much lore on Evereska's mythal to go the same route. The problem is that those book were very specific about the mythal and several of those specifics were direct changes from the past.
Well, nothing specifically said Evereska did not have one, no?


No, one example would be how present it is in the books. As soon as elves enter the Mythal they feel it. Even the Netherese have a sense of it. But previous time we're in Evereska no mention of that feeling is made (because it 'wasn't there' yet in FR lore).
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TBeholder
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Posted - 10 Apr 2019 :  17:10:05  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage


No, one example would be how present it is in the books. As soon as elves enter the Mythal they feel it. Even the Netherese have a sense of it.
Sauce? Because why bother renaming cities "so folk would know and respect (or fear) the presence of a mythal"(Cormanthyr) if it's immediately and constantly self-evident?
quote:
But previous time we're in Evereska no mention of that feeling is made (because it 'wasn't there' yet in FR lore).

Also, absence of evidence. There was probably no mention of elven toilets, either.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 11 Apr 2019 :  05:59:20  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My point is, that in those novels they made a point of mentioning that they could feel the magic. I didn't write the damn thing - I just noted this as a major shift from the past when I read it.
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moonbeast
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Posted - 12 Apr 2019 :  17:38:02  Show Profile Send moonbeast a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Also, absence of evidence. There was probably no mention of elven toilets, either.



Gnomes invented the first toilets anyways…. although the first few toilet-tinkers accidentally got flushed down their own wicked contraptions, never to be seen again.


Edited by - moonbeast on 12 Apr 2019 17:38:56
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sleyvas
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Posted - 12 Apr 2019 :  23:59:12  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Also, absence of evidence. There was probably no mention of elven toilets, either.



What? Elves shit? I think you've been hitting the potato juice too hard. Elves just meditate that stuff away. It's true. One of them told me, and we all know elves can't lie.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 13 Apr 2019 :  00:42:37  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Also, absence of evidence. There was probably no mention of elven toilets, either.



What? Elves shit? I think you've been hitting the potato juice too hard. Elves just meditate that stuff away. It's true. One of them told me, and we all know elves can't lie.



Actually, they just fart sunrays and dew.

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Hoondatha
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Posted - 13 Apr 2019 :  02:50:34  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've never had a problem with Evereska having a mythal, and I've never left 2e, lore-wise. It just made sense for a "last bastion" to have many and powerful layered defenses. And since the city has been around for so long, and gotten refugees from so many different other realms as they fall, eventually some group would decide to make it happen.

To that end I've taken the mention of Evereska's close connection with the Astral and Ethereal planes from Wizards and Rogues of the Realms (an interesting series of books that was never really followed up on in 2e or 3e) as sort of back-handed evidence for the mythal. A close connection to two planes, being able to draw on those planes for their magic, and probably easily plane shift to those planes for those who know the secret? Sounds like a good grand power for a mythal to me. And if you also included iron-clad wards against non-Evereskan's infiltrating the city through those two planes, you also fit in with the Fortress Home feel.

Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 13 Apr 2019 :  04:26:09  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha

I've never had a problem with Evereska having a mythal, and I've never left 2e, lore-wise. It just made sense for a "last bastion" to have many and powerful layered defenses. And since the city has been around for so long, and gotten refugees from so many different other realms as they fall, eventually some group would decide to make it happen.

To that end I've taken the mention of Evereska's close connection with the Astral and Ethereal planes from Wizards and Rogues of the Realms (an interesting series of books that was never really followed up on in 2e or 3e) as sort of back-handed evidence for the mythal. A close connection to two planes, being able to draw on those planes for their magic, and probably easily plane shift to those planes for those who know the secret? Sounds like a good grand power for a mythal to me. And if you also included iron-clad wards against non-Evereskan's infiltrating the city through those two planes, you also fit in with the Fortress Home feel.



It does make sense for Evereska to have a mythal. I consider it a retcon, though, because none of the info about mythals that we had in 2E mentioned one in Evereska, and none of the scant lore on Evereska mentioned it, either. The latter part I could wave away as "no room to mention it" if it wasn't for the former part.

Either way, though, I find it easier to accept that mythal than I do the one in Silverymoon, since we had lore explicitly stating there wasn't a mythal there.

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Hoondatha
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Posted - 13 Apr 2019 :  13:04:47  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Agreed about the retcon, though as retcons go it's minor and I'm happy to live with it. It's nice to have a retcon that I am willing to live with. :)

And agreed on Silverymoon as well. City-wide field of magic? Sure. Mythal? No. Same with Shoonach.

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WalkerNinja
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Posted - 15 Apr 2019 :  04:29:16  Show Profile Send WalkerNinja a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha

I've never had a problem with Evereska having a mythal, and I've never left 2e, lore-wise. It just made sense for a "last bastion" to have many and powerful layered defenses. And since the city has been around for so long, and gotten refugees from so many different other realms as they fall, eventually some group would decide to make it happen.

To that end I've taken the mention of Evereska's close connection with the Astral and Ethereal planes from Wizards and Rogues of the Realms (an interesting series of books that was never really followed up on in 2e or 3e) as sort of back-handed evidence for the mythal. A close connection to two planes, being able to draw on those planes for their magic, and probably easily plane shift to those planes for those who know the secret? Sounds like a good grand power for a mythal to me. And if you also included iron-clad wards against non-Evereskan's infiltrating the city through those two planes, you also fit in with the Fortress Home feel.



It does make sense for Evereska to have a mythal. I consider it a retcon, though, because none of the info about mythals that we had in 2E mentioned one in Evereska, and none of the scant lore on Evereska mentioned it, either. The latter part I could wave away as "no room to mention it" if it wasn't for the former part.

Either way, though, I find it easier to accept that mythal than I do the one in Silverymoon, since we had lore explicitly stating there wasn't a mythal there.




Being shrouded in mystery as it was, I sort of think it was left open to interpetation what might be there and what might not. You have to admit that shrouding the Fortress Home in a defensive mythal--but secretly! because bad stuff happens to cities that are public about their mythals--makes sense.

But Schoonach? Silverymoon? Hell no.

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TBeholder
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Posted - 17 May 2019 :  22:51:36  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha

And agreed on Silverymoon as well. City-wide field of magic? Sure. Mythal? No. Same with Shoonach.

Shoonach's wards (it's an area with more than one settlement, the palace is just the most infamous one) were explicitly called mythals or close enough, however.
quote:
Lands of Intrigue:
Book 1, p.45:
[Private Note] As far as I can determine, Zaranda's escape led her into the field of a mythal into which, like the mythal in Myth Drannor; one cannot teleport. [...] we tried to escape the ruins' mythal so we might teleport out and buck to the siege; [...] Luckily, the inability of the undead to pierce certain magical fields in Shoonach (including the mythals) showed us when we'd finally reached our goal
Book 1, p.81-82:
The major magic most sages know about Shoonach's ruins are defensive in nature, and set by the Strohms and their elven allies and vizera. A type of ward or mythal reinforces the walls around the ruins, preventing the escape at ground level or by air of any undead from the city ruins. Fire-based spells work at maximum effect in Iltakar, and cold-based spells at minimum.
For centuries, mysterious magic has plagued the souls that braved Shoonach's dangers. After much study, sages now know that there is at least one mythal or mythal- like field in Shoonach, and a distinct possibility of three more in various locations in Debukher and Mamlukkar. [...]
* Centered on the palace, the mythal has a 1-mile radius.
* Only wizards' necromantic spells work within the mythal, but magical items still operate as normal.
* Any missiles (thrown or fired) fly within this mythal as if fired into molasses: 1/10 normal range, -2 to hit or damage, +2 on 1d20 Dexterity check to dodge.
* The paving stones of the streets and buildings are proof against passwall, stone shape, polymorph, transmute rock to mud, and like spells, blocking easy access to the ruins.


People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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