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 Planes of Conflict - Talos vs Malar
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jamesewelch
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28 Posts

Posted - 05 Apr 2019 :  13:11:52  Show Profile Send jamesewelch a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
While I was reading through Planes of Conflict, it mentioned that Talos the Destroyer imprisoned Malar in the Land of the Hunt (Colothys, Carceri).

Does this mean that Talos was the one that originally sent Malar to his realm/Land of the Hunt? Where was Malar before? Or does this mean Malar was just trapped in his own realm?

How did Malar escape? I can't find any record of him escaping, but when the next edition came out, he wasn't imprisoned. The Planes of Conflict mentions two individuals trying to free him, but as far as I recall, I don't think they mention that they were successful.

Talos's realm was adjacent to the Land of the Hunt (when Planes of Conflict was written). Now, Malar is in the Deep Wilds and Talos is now at Towers of Ruin (not sure where that is now) - I think these two areas are in separate planes now, even though they were physically adjacent before (Malar's Land of the Hunt grasslands & forests had a mountain range border which began Talos' realm - in PoC).

Edited by - jamesewelch on 05 Apr 2019 13:30:22

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5498 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2019 :  14:13:23  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I never let Planescape material determine Realmslore.

— George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
32117 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2019 :  15:32:28  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

I never let Planescape material determine Realmslore.

— George Krashos



Agreed. Even though the Realms were officially part of Planescape, TSR had an issue with coordination of the metasettings -- in that the metasetting stuff was written independently, and sometimes without any apparent consideration of the world settings that were connected to that metasetting. (I use the term metasetting to refer to those settings that connected all the regular, single-world based settings: Planescape, Spelljammer, and to a lesser extent, Ravenloft)

I'm a huge fan of Spelljammer, myself -- my username comes from there -- but the Spelljammer metasetting was particularly bad about failing to coordinate with the world setting stuff. There's lore about Toril in Realmspace that is not backed up or referenced in any published Realmslore, and Krynnspace has info about Krynn that directly contradicts existing Dragonlance lore. (Krynnspace had a lot of questionable stuff, too, including a flying gnome that was superstrong, only 6 inches tall, and was called Little Biggnome.)

While I do have all of the Planescape stuff, I've never gone thru it all. I'm not familiar with the referenced info, but unless you're running a planar campaign, I'd say this one is something you can safely ignore.

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jamesewelch
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Posted - 06 Apr 2019 :  15:47:51  Show Profile Send jamesewelch a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks. This was more related to Malar's dislike of Talos (a few references make that statement, even saying he'd kill Talos if given the chance). I worked my way backwards in time, until I found the above story related to Planescape and Malar's imprisonment as the possible source of that hatred (or at least the first written confrontation between the two). I was mostly trying to figure out the full story there.
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Ayrik
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Canada
6820 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2019 :  17:26:29  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Planescape-Talos and Planescape-Malar wouldn't really be the same entities/aspects as their Realms-Talos and Realms-Malar counterparts. Just like the differences between Norse-Tyr and Realms-Tyr, Finnish-Mielikki and Realms-Mielikki, etc. And the mythologies of Planeslore would also differ from the mythologies of Realmslore, they're distorted or embellished by time and they're basically just metaphors from biased perspectives to begin with (because the vast activities and motivations of gods are incomprehensible to the mere mortals who need to believe in them).

I agree with Master Krashos ... don't let Planeslore determine Realmslore (and don't let Realmslore determine Planeslore) ... they are different stories meant to serve different purposes ... they are also often convoluted by lack of consistency and continuity among their (real world) creators.

[/Ayrik]
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5498 Posts

Posted - 07 Apr 2019 :  05:23:15  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you want an in Realms explanation for the emnity between Malar and Talos, you might look at how Kazgoroth has been used (and has used) both deities in relation to activities in the Moonshaes. Perhaps they both claimed that entity and were unhappy that the other was using “their” plaything.

— George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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jamesewelch
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28 Posts

Posted - 07 Apr 2019 :  14:50:18  Show Profile Send jamesewelch a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

If you want an in Realms explanation for the emnity between Malar and Talos, you might look at how Kazgoroth has been used (and has used) both deities in relation to activities in the Moonshaes. Perhaps they both claimed that entity and were unhappy that the other was using “their” plaything.

— George Krashos



Which books should I look for that? I know there's some (confusion? discrepancies?) books that say Kazgoroth was a minion of Bhaal, but I don't recall Talos being involved with Kazgoroth. I know Talos and Malar was both fighting in the Moonshaes (Malar sent the Elf-Eater during the Talosean Winters.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
32117 Posts

Posted - 07 Apr 2019 :  15:45:31  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I personally think Kazgoroth is some sort of unique critter who acts as a mercenary to various divinities. Maybe he's some sort of Lower Plane baddie that didn't want to be part of that hierarchy, or maybe he's the last remnants of some fallen deity... But either way, he's now a divine free agent and is willing to serve anyone who sends him to the Prime for some random destruction.

Something I've considered before is an aspect of a deity, or an avatar of a deity, that somehow gets disconnected from the original and becomes independent. This is also a possibility for Kazzie.

I've never thought Bhaal was a good fit for him. He has always seemed more of a Malar or Talos type. Maybe he was the result of some collaboration between the two, and his unexpected independence led to some issues between his creators.

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8038 Posts

Posted - 07 Apr 2019 :  22:30:13  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What he might sound like is a primordial who didn't play well with his fellow primordials, similar in ways to Ubtao, and as a result maybe Ao didn't feel like he needed to send him to Abeir. Maybe he even betrayed the other primordials much like Ubtao. Given that there are links between Ubtao and Qotal.... and Ubtao's link as a father of dinosaurs.... and the relative nearness of the Moonshaes to Maztica.... and the fact that Qotal had a brother who is all about bloodlust and slaughter name Zaltec.... and the fact that Kazgoroth essentially looks like a kind of tyrannosaurus rex or evil Barney or something similar... I wouldn't be surprised if Kazgoroth is some kind of linkage to Zaltec (aspect, an actual form, a child of his, etc...). It may be that Kazgoroth works as a mercenary for divine energy, because as a primordial he can't directly draw it from worship the way gods can, so he trades his services... working against "cough" the Earthmother… who sounds an awful lot like Maztica.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5498 Posts

Posted - 08 Apr 2019 :  02:35:31  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jamesewelch
Which books should I look for that? I know there's some (confusion? discrepancies?) books that say Kazgoroth was a minion of Bhaal, but I don't recall Talos being involved with Kazgoroth. I know Talos and Malar was both fighting in the Moonshaes (Malar sent the Elf-Eater during the Talosean Winters.



This will give you all the info you need and much, much more: https://www.dmsguild.com/product/248303/Moonshae-Isles-Regional-Guide

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8038 Posts

Posted - 09 Apr 2019 :  12:31:41  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by jamesewelch
Which books should I look for that? I know there's some (confusion? discrepancies?) books that say Kazgoroth was a minion of Bhaal, but I don't recall Talos being involved with Kazgoroth. I know Talos and Malar was both fighting in the Moonshaes (Malar sent the Elf-Eater during the Talosean Winters.



This will give you all the info you need and much, much more: https://www.dmsguild.com/product/248303/Moonshae-Isles-Regional-Guide

-- George Krashos




Not sure if the author of that comes here, but if he does, 2 minor updates

"Milil, the goddess of poetry and song, is well regarded throughout the islands by both Ffolk and Notherlanders. Legends claim that he brought the harp to the Moonshaes and taught the first bards."


That being said, it is kind of sad that there's no female god of music in some fashion, yet there's 3 male gods (Oghma, Finder, Milil). Women sing so much better.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Hoondatha
Great Reader

USA
2436 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2019 :  02:58:20  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The way I reconcile the Realms and Planescape is to say that everything in both is canon, but to remember that Planescape doesn't really give many (or any, possibly; it's been awhile since I did a close read of the sourcebooks) hard timeline links between the present of Planescape and the present of any of the other Prime worlds.

So maybe the "present" of the Planescape books is fifty years in the past compared to the "present" of whenever your Realms campaign is. Maybe it's in the future. It's all fuzzy enough that you can easily fudge things decades or even centuries to either side for any campaign world.

And of course that's not even taking into consideration all of the stupid shifting/deleting of planes that happened in 3e and 4e. You can't really compare 3e or 4e planar and godly lore with 2e, because 3e and especially 4e didn't even pretend to care about what came before.

Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
32117 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2019 :  04:42:42  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha

The way I reconcile the Realms and Planescape is to say that everything in both is canon, but to remember that Planescape doesn't really give many (or any, possibly; it's been awhile since I did a close read of the sourcebooks) hard timeline links between the present of Planescape and the present of any of the other Prime worlds.

So maybe the "present" of the Planescape books is fifty years in the past compared to the "present" of whenever your Realms campaign is. Maybe it's in the future. It's all fuzzy enough that you can easily fudge things decades or even centuries to either side for any campaign world.


Actually, I know of at least one book that does nail down the time pretty closely, and implies that it was more or less the same timeframe as the Realms.

In On Hallowed Ground, there are at least a couple of entries that reference the latter part of the 2E timeframe in the Realms.

On page 99, under the entry for Labelas Enoreth, it says "Labelas's main proxy is a Torilian gold elf called Vartan Hai Sylvar, a mortal brought from the Prime Material Plane to serve the one-eyed god. The two had a falling out some time ago, but apparently they've mended the bridges; Vartan now works with Labelas quite willingly."

That entry is in the Seldarine section.

There's also a few "Faerűnian Powers" listed, including Cyric:

"Just over a dozen or so years ago, Cyric was a mortal thief, a rogue on the path toward evil."

The entry also mentions Kelemvor and the Cyrinishad. This is from page 168.

quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha

And of course that's not even taking into consideration all of the stupid shifting/deleting of planes that happened in 3e and 4e. You can't really compare 3e or 4e planar and godly lore with 2e, because 3e and especially 4e didn't even pretend to care about what came before.



Agreed. I will never understand what possessed them to chuck a well-detailed cosmology out the window and create a new one -- especially when doing so was a massive retcon.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Hoondatha
Great Reader

USA
2436 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2019 :  13:08:47  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Huh. I'd forgotten On Hallowed Ground. I have it, but I don't think I've ever really read it. Looking over the Planescape books, that's the only Planescape book that's true of for me.

So I'll amend my previous statement: if you ignore On Hallowed Ground, it's easy to move the present of Planescape forward or backward in time to resolve whatever lore inconsistencies between Planescape and your Prime-based campaign you want.

Now I need to go read that book. It's rare that I get new 2e lore.

Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well.
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LordofBones
Senior Scribe

893 Posts

Posted - 14 Apr 2019 :  13:01:46  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jamesewelch

While I was reading through Planes of Conflict, it mentioned that Talos the Destroyer imprisoned Malar in the Land of the Hunt (Colothys, Carceri).

Does this mean that Talos was the one that originally sent Malar to his realm/Land of the Hunt? Where was Malar before? Or does this mean Malar was just trapped in his own realm?

How did Malar escape? I can't find any record of him escaping, but when the next edition came out, he wasn't imprisoned. The Planes of Conflict mentions two individuals trying to free him, but as far as I recall, I don't think they mention that they were successful.

Talos's realm was adjacent to the Land of the Hunt (when Planes of Conflict was written). Now, Malar is in the Deep Wilds and Talos is now at Towers of Ruin (not sure where that is now) - I think these two areas are in separate planes now, even though they were physically adjacent before (Malar's Land of the Hunt grasslands & forests had a mountain range border which began Talos' realm - in PoC).




The Deep Wilds/Towers of Ruin are a 3E FR creation, like how Bane, Beshaba, Hoar and so on all got lumped into the Barrens of Doom and Despair despite having realms in Acheron and the Abyss.

Anyway, Talos's Towers of Ruin were in Pandesmos, Pandemonium. Given Malar's nature, it's likely his old domain was in Gehenna or the Abyss, like his fellow Gods of Fury (Auril and Loki share the same realm in Gehenna, Umberlee lives in the 13th layer of the Abyss)
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