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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore

USA
1151 Posts

Posted - 03 Apr 2019 :  21:41:24  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I'd like to tap the Kree Superior Intelligence that is this forum to discuss how talismanic magic from FMQ1 City of Gold might work in a 5e world. I am trying to develop it for my Anchorome Campaign Guide, and I can't see how this might fit into the 5e rules - though it is an interesting concept.


quote:
Originally written in "FMQ1 City of Gold"

A talisman is a ritual item related in shape or substance to the spell which it is tied. Its actual appearance depends on the craft used to create it, the spell it affects, and its design. Fetishists and Azuposi priests can use talismans, which improve the potency of their spells.


Now, I am thinking some possibilities on this part. My plan for the fetishist is a rogue archetype similar to an arcane trickster, but with a limited selection of spells related to animals and taken more from the cleric list than wizard.

Perhaps they can create a certain number of talismans as a class feature which can be used to increase the level at which the spell is cast? I fear the OP here though - it would have to be quite limited.

For clerics, perhaps Talismanic Magic works similarly, but needs to be taken as a Feat? What do you think Supreme Candlekeep Intelligence?


Edit: Spells will be from druid spell list, not cleric

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Edited by - Seethyr on 05 Apr 2019 20:17:24

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 04 Apr 2019 :  00:37:58  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Talismanic Magic is essentially some of the earliest designs for metamagic. It added caster levels when using spell X. It made saves for a spell harder. More importantly, the talisman wasn't used up as a result of use. It didn't have charges. So, you created an item and it was effective forever FOR YOU as long as you had it. You can't make a talisman for anyone else. You are right to be leery of this, as there's also nothing limiting how many talismans you can have other than the time spent to create them. Also, in 5e, anything that boosts a spells save penalty is pretty nasty. My recommendation would be to look at the sorcerers distant, empowered, extended, or heightened spell metamagic abilities. Then allow the person to create a talisman that can apply one of those to a specific spell once a day, with later possibly better "crafting" on the talisman can increase the number of uses per day. Then as a means of limiting the number of talismans, use the attunement rules, but allow as many as up to 5 talismans together to work as one attunement.

I think your idea of using arcane trickster rules for the fetishist, but with druidic magic related to animals makes sense. I'd probably take it a little further too and give an ability that wasn't common back in 2nd edition. The Fetish is working with "spirits", so I'd actually give him the find familiar ritual, but only to find standard animal familiars, and I'd make him have to make a special fetish that looks like the animal he would commonly summon (such that maybe he carries a hawk fetish made with hawk feathers). Also, spells like Animal Friendship should definitely be on their list, along with the use of talismans with the heightened ability to make gaining basically a short term animal friend common.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore

USA
1151 Posts

Posted - 04 Apr 2019 :  01:10:48  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Excellent suggestions. I didn’t think of the familiar when I tried to write it up. Instead I worked in some special features based on the fetishes at 9th, 13th and 17th that replace the other Arcane Trickster features. I also have used the Spirit Shaman spells as the spell list (already all based on animals) instead of the Druid list - though they are pretty close.

Finally, I’m using a new mechanic so that the fetishist can switch out spells, but this takes both time and money. This allows them to be versatile, but not overpowered as they really only have the opportunity to switch out spells between adventures.

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 04 Apr 2019 :  15:15:35  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

Excellent suggestions. I didn’t think of the familiar when I tried to write it up. Instead I worked in some special features based on the fetishes at 9th, 13th and 17th that replace the other Arcane Trickster features. I also have used the Spirit Shaman spells as the spell list (already all based on animals) instead of the Druid list - though they are pretty close.

Finally, I’m using a new mechanic so that the fetishist can switch out spells, but this takes both time and money. This allows them to be versatile, but not overpowered as they really only have the opportunity to switch out spells between adventures.



It might also be worthwhile to look at the magic of incarnum system from 3.5e, taking a look at the totemist for the fetishist. The two are very similar in what they're doing. Perhaps some of the abilities of the totemist can be converted to unique Fetishist abilities.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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TBeholder
Great Reader

2376 Posts

Posted - 04 Apr 2019 :  20:13:30  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

You are right to be leery of this, as there's also nothing limiting how many talismans you can have other than the time spent to create them.
...at least if DM runs CRPG grade hack & slash, in which items are never damaged, stolen or otherwise lost unless PLOT?
Do these things even count as "enchanted" for purpose of when they get saving throws at all?

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And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 05 Apr 2019 :  12:57:43  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

You are right to be leery of this, as there's also nothing limiting how many talismans you can have other than the time spent to create them.
...at least if DM runs CRPG grade hack & slash, in which items are never damaged, stolen or otherwise lost unless PLOT?
Do these things even count as "enchanted" for purpose of when they get saving throws at all?



Yeah, we all know NOONE ever does item saving throws for all their items every time they get hit with say a fireball (unless they have a program doing all of their combat for them). That being said, on the stolen part, they would be useless to anyone else (not saying it wouldn't happen, just that anyone who actually knows what it is would know its only of use to the creator). Now, whether they're counted as magic items... good question. I would say yes, but how much time is needed to create one... good question. They're not extremly powerful except for with a single spell that its designed to enhance. The concept would be great for casters with "known" spells rather than "memorized" spells, but its only for divine magic. Also, I could definitely see individuals enhancing certain cantrips via talismans, and maybe one of the things an individual should be limited by is what level of spell they can enhance. For instance, if they have 4th level spells, maybe they can only enhance 2nd level and under spells. Until they have 3rd level spells, maybe they can only enhance cantrips, and at 3rd level spells, maybe they can start enhancing first level spells, etc...

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore

USA
1151 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2019 :  04:08:14  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Posted this originally here...

I am working on a new feature that is essentially a 5e update of the ability known as "talismanic magic" from the 2nd edition product FMQ1 City of Gold. Without adequate playtesting, I can't always tell if it is overpowered or underpowered in a 5e campaign.

To begin with, who gets to use Talismanic Magic? Its an ability given to some new subclasses, essentially at the same place they might have gained access to casting Ritual Magic. "Talismanic Magic" could also be taken as a feat. I think this is important for considering its power level as a feature.

What does it look like? Well, there will be two types of talismans , lesser and greater. Lesser have a maximum of 6 "talisman points" and greater have 10 talisman points. Sure, there could be higher ones but they'd be legendary items at the least. Each day (not between long rests, because this is about an item, not a character), lessers regain 1d6 and greater regain 1d10 up to their maximum.

Each talisman also has a number of metamagic abilities that the caster could use to twist their spells. These will be taken from the sorcerer's metamagic feature along with some new homebrew ones. There is no connection between lesser/greater talismans and the number of metamagic features available. In this way, they are all unique, but typically there will be one power that is weaker and costs 1-2 points and a metamagic ability that costs 3 or more. A lesser talisman might therefore be more versatile than a greater talisman, making it more valuable depending on the wants and needs of the caster.

As an example, perhaps there is a greater talisman that allows access to Distant Spell (1 talismanic point cost), Quickened Spell (2 talismanic points) and Altered Energy Spell (3 talismanic points, a homebrew metamagic where you can switch out energy types for evocations).

I am considering restrictions on this ability overall:
- Each talisman only works for one type of magic, i.e. evocation
-The talisman owner must "store" a spell slot spell in the talisman, giving him access to one less spell slot. Level can be switched out between short/long rests.
-The wearer must attune to a talisman, like an item. This allows one extra attunement, but only to a talisman, and a single one at that. An owner of two talismans may switch their attunement each long rest.

What do you think of this mechanic? I'd particularly love to hear what those who have read FMQ1 think, but comments on game balance are the most appreciated of all.

PS. If you think this is not OP or UP, would giving an additional +1 to an ability score make sense in addition to the access to talismans for those who gain this as a feat?

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2019 :  14:39:22  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

Posted this originally here...

I am working on a new feature that is essentially a 5e update of the ability known as "talismanic magic" from the 2nd edition product FMQ1 City of Gold. Without adequate playtesting, I can't always tell if it is overpowered or underpowered in a 5e campaign.

To begin with, who gets to use Talismanic Magic? Its an ability given to some new subclasses, essentially at the same place they might have gained access to casting Ritual Magic. "Talismanic Magic" could also be taken as a feat. I think this is important for considering its power level as a feature.

What does it look like? Well, there will be two types of talismans , lesser and greater. Lesser have a maximum of 6 "talisman points" and greater have 10 talisman points. Sure, there could be higher ones but they'd be legendary items at the least. Each day (not between long rests, because this is about an item, not a character), lessers regain 1d6 and greater regain 1d10 up to their maximum.

Each talisman also has a number of metamagic abilities that the caster could use to twist their spells. These will be taken from the sorcerer's metamagic feature along with some new homebrew ones. There is no connection between lesser/greater talismans and the number of metamagic features available. In this way, they are all unique, but typically there will be one power that is weaker and costs 1-2 points and a metamagic ability that costs 3 or more. A lesser talisman might therefore be more versatile than a greater talisman, making it more valuable depending on the wants and needs of the caster.

As an example, perhaps there is a greater talisman that allows access to Distant Spell (1 talismanic point cost), Quickened Spell (2 talismanic points) and Altered Energy Spell (3 talismanic points, a homebrew metamagic where you can switch out energy types for evocations).

I am considering restrictions on this ability overall:
- Each talisman only works for one type of magic, i.e. evocation
-The talisman owner must "store" a spell slot spell in the talisman, giving him access to one less spell slot. Level can be switched out between short/long rests.
-The wearer must attune to a talisman, like an item. This allows one extra attunement, but only to a talisman, and a single one at that. An owner of two talismans may switch their attunement each long rest.

What do you think of this mechanic? I'd particularly love to hear what those who have read FMQ1 think, but comments on game balance are the most appreciated of all.

PS. If you think this is not OP or UP, would giving an additional +1 to an ability score make sense in addition to the access to talismans for those who gain this as a feat?



Will read more on this later and respond, but here's my initial thoughts.

Love the use of "points" and the regain of points per day. Whether the numbers themselves are good ranges, will need to see. Also like the idea of assigning certain metamagic abilities to a talisman.


On the idea of what spells a talisman can affect, this I think should change to more accurately mirror what was in City of Gold. Each Talisman should be specific to a certain spell. Perhaps though it GIVES the person an extra known/memorized spell as long as they have it, and that spell is whatever the talisman is linked to.

I like the idea that this replaces class abilities.

On the idea of attunement, not sure if its a good idea, but perhaps as they go up, they can attune more talisman freely. Also, noone should be able to use someone else's talisman, even if they know how to make one. This could somewhat mirror the progression behind 3rd edition binders binding additional vestiges as they go up. Mechanics for creation of talisman should be created, such that it costs time and money, but not an enormous amount. Perhaps someone can "recraft" someone else's talisman at a reduced cost in time and money.



Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore

USA
1151 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2019 :  17:44:36  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Love the use of "points" and the regain of points per day. Whether the numbers themselves are good ranges, will need to see. Also like the idea of assigning certain metamagic abilities to a talisman.



Yeah, unfortunately concepts like this only get balanced with good playtesting. I have players that like to break things (yeah they are min/maxxers to the extreme) so if there is an issue they will find it – but still it’s only a case study really.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


On the idea of what spells a talisman can affect, this I think should change to more accurately mirror what was in City of Gold. Each Talisman should be specific to a certain spell. Perhaps though it GIVES the person an extra known/memorized spell as long as they have it, and that spell is whatever the talisman is linked to.



Hrmm, that would make it more accurate to FMQ1, I believe. I don’t have the book in front of me right now, so I don’t know if we are conflating fetishes with talismans though – two very different new magics introduced in that book. I have used the “tied to a spell” concept to represent fetishes (small clay figurines). My fear of doing this with the talismanic would be that it might limit the use just way too much, and make it too close to fetish magic in flavor.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I like the idea that this replaces class abilities.


Me too, particularly Ritual Magic. I want the power level to be similar to having access to ritual magic so I can make it a feat as well.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

On the idea of attunement, not sure if its a good idea, but perhaps as they go up, they can attune more talisman freely. Also, noone should be able to use someone else's talisman, even if they know how to make one. This could somewhat mirror the progression behind 3rd edition binders binding additional vestiges as they go up. Mechanics for creation of talisman should be created, such that it costs time and money, but not an enormous amount. Perhaps someone can "recraft" someone else's talisman at a reduced cost in time and money.


So possibly instead of attuning, you must create your own. This is seeming to be too much like the fetish magic I’ve developed, but that’s my only fear. I’ll post that ability later which so far, only a fetishist rogue can use.

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2019 :  00:52:13  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I had to doublecheck too. Both of them are crafting items for their spells. The Fetishist has to craft the item to even know his spells. I was wrong though on one thing, talismans are NOT tied to the creator, so they could in theory be passed around or handed down. Oh, but there WAS something to control the number of talismans a person could create. Apparently you can only make one per level. I wouldn't make it as stringent as they say it though, as I'd probably let someone delay creation of a talisman if they wanted to. But the mechanics of how many can create could dictate what levels of spell could be on a talisman (i.e. at 1st level you should only be able to make/use a 1st level talisman, if by 3rd level you have 2nd level spells, then your third talisman should only be able to be up to 2nd level of spell affecting. So, like a 10th level cleric character, looking at the 5e spell progression, would in theory be able to have 2 talismans for a single spell of 1st to 5th level (10 talismans total). If they're going to give you an additional spell memorized though, I might recommend cutting that number in half and also applying some kind of attunement rule that only lets them attune one talisman at a time for say every 5 levels.... and maybe put level limits in (i.e. the first attunement is only talismans up to level 3, the second attunement can be up to say level 5, the third up to level 7 spell at 15th character level, the final up to 9th level spell.)

Regarding City of Gold and whether talismans are tied to specific spells
A talisman is a ritual item related in shape or substance to the spell to which it is tied. Its actual appearance depends on the craft used to create it, the spell it affects, and its design. Fetishists and Azuposi priests can use talismans, which improve the potency of their spells.
<snip>
For example, a 3rd level pueblo priest creates a talisman for invisibility to animals. That talisman will add 3 levels to the priest#146;s effective level when casting this spell. If the priest, after attaining 5th
level, casts invisibility to animals, he will be able to affect up to 8 creatures, not the normal 5, and the spell will last 1 turn + 8 rounds, not just 1 turn + 5 rounds.
<snip>
If a character rises a level, before trying to make a talisman while at that lower level, the opportunity to make the talisman is lost. If a 4th level character rises to 5th level before making his 4th level talisman, he will never be able to make that talisman.



Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore

USA
1151 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2019 :  02:41:09  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I had to doublecheck too. Both of them are crafting items for their spells. The Fetishist has to craft the item to even know his spells. I was wrong though on one thing, talismans are NOT tied to the creator, so they could in theory be passed around or handed down. Oh, but there WAS something to control the number of talismans a person could create. Apparently you can only make one per level. I wouldn't make it as stringent as they say it though, as I'd probably let someone delay creation of a talisman if they wanted to. But the mechanics of how many can create could dictate what levels of spell could be on a talisman (i.e. at 1st level you should only be able to make/use a 1st level talisman, if by 3rd level you have 2nd level spells, then your third talisman should only be able to be up to 2nd level of spell affecting. So, like a 10th level cleric character, looking at the 5e spell progression, would in theory be able to have 2 talismans for a single spell of 1st to 5th level (10 talismans total). If they're going to give you an additional spell memorized though, I might recommend cutting that number in half and also applying some kind of attunement rule that only lets them attune one talisman at a time for say every 5 levels.... and maybe put level limits in (i.e. the first attunement is only talismans up to level 3, the second attunement can be up to say level 5, the third up to level 7 spell at 15th character level, the final up to 9th level spell.)

Regarding City of Gold and whether talismans are tied to specific spells
A talisman is a ritual item related in shape or substance to the spell to which it is tied. Its actual appearance depends on the craft used to create it, the spell it affects, and its design. Fetishists and Azuposi priests can use talismans, which improve the potency of their spells.
<snip>
For example, a 3rd level pueblo priest creates a talisman for invisibility to animals. That talisman will add 3 levels to the priest#146;s effective level when casting this spell. If the priest, after attaining 5th
level, casts invisibility to animals, he will be able to affect up to 8 creatures, not the normal 5, and the spell will last 1 turn + 8 rounds, not just 1 turn + 5 rounds.
<snip>
If a character rises a level, before trying to make a talisman while at that lower level, the opportunity to make the talisman is lost. If a 4th level character rises to 5th level before making his 4th level talisman, he will never be able to make that talisman.






Since I based the Fetishist off the Arcane Trickster, I replaced the Ritual Magic feature (of the Arcane Trickster) with the Talismanic Magic feature. Unearthed Arcana has a really interesting take on magic item creation that takes time and money based on the cost of the item. I am thinking of ripping these rules for talismans just the same, but in order to do that I had to determine the cost of these items. Here is the UA document by the way...

https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/UA_Downtime.pdf

So for cost, I was thinking they would be a Very Rare Item giving them a cost range between 5,000 gp and 50,000 gp. I made two types of talismans as I mentioned earlier, with lesser having 6 sorcery points and greater having 10. Therefore, lesser cost 6,000 x the number of metamagic abilities they have available and greater are 10,000 x the same. This should make them something that can be created at higher levels, but not easily. Perhaps a character class that gains access to talismanic magic early could have a "least" talisman that has 1 sorcery point with one metamagic ability as starting equipment.

On another note, but I don't think it deserves its own thread - I'm looking at developing a magic form for totem poles. The concepts I am floating around is giving them a mythal like power to affect a large area, for either protection or offense. The poles might have powers based off of what animals and/or spirits are carved into them and where they are located along the pole. I need to do more research, though I am trying to be respectful enough to keep away from real world religions that still exist. That has been a challenge I am aware of since the beginning of this project.

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Edited by - Seethyr on 11 Apr 2019 02:47:19
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 12 Apr 2019 :  23:14:56  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You know, your mentioning of ritual magic being replaced by Talismanic Magic, since you are limiting the number of talismans you can have attuned, it might be interesting that IF you have a talisman of a spell that's essentially a ritual spell you can cast it like a ritual spell (so for instance, maybe find familiar).

BTW, I know some of what you're looking for has a north American indian feel. If you can find them, you may want to check out the old d&d Jakandor series. It has some rules for Talismans, but their "talisman" are basically "medicine pouches" that last a few days and provide the equivalent protection of a certain type of spell (maybe it repels insects, protects from evil, fire, etc..).

On the idea of totem pole magic, it might be interesting if they can summon a "telthor" spirit beast. I'd also recommend looking at the dm's guild entry for Priestess: Ancient World Divine Class. It could be interesting if you could animate the totem pole as an idol. There's also a bunch of other things there you could do with idols. In fact, it might be worthwhile to use those rules and simply add on extra options to do with your idol with the enhanced idol powers. By that I mean there's these special idol powers and you pick how yours will work as you level up. I count 37 different options, and it could be worth getting the product just for ideas. The basis of those rules work like this


As a priestess becomes more powerful, their idol develops special powers. At level 3, and again at levels 6, 11 and 17, pick an Enhanced Idol power from the list. The power must correspond to either one of your god’s Domains or to one of your Worship Aspects. If your god has multiple Domains, you can choose Enhanced Idol powers from either Domain, not just the one you chose for your Divine Domain spells.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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