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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Mar 2019 : 03:29:35
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So, one of the things I was just thinking about was "the cultures that transferred from Abeir to Toril had a profound effect on Toril". That then led to "how did some of the cultures that were in the areas that transferred to Abeir affect Abeir?". That then brought me back to some conversations we had in the past year about the formation of the Cult of the Dragon, the city of Mourktar and the church of Bane there, and how the two groups were somewhat tied.
Now, I know that the novels by Rich baker have Mourktar remaining in Toril, but the map for 4e CLEARLY has that huge swathe of land jutting out into the alamber sea as gone. My means of adjusting for this has been to say that the survivors of the spellplague built a "New Mourktar" on the coast, named if after the old Mourktar, and people flocked to it (because well, there were suddenly all the dragonborn to the south, and genasi to the west, etc...).
So, that then got me thinking... what would the cult of the dragon DO in Abeir. They find themselves in a brand new world. In this brand new world are.... dragons living as overlords ruling people. Would they decide that this is the prophecy somewhat coming true? Would they attempt to win over dragons in Abeir by tempting them with everlasting undeath (assuming they somehow get the magical means to do so... there obviously is the means to create undead in Abeir since there is the whole Eminence of Araunt)? What would this lead to? So, I figured, throw the idea out, and let's tear it apart.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2019 : 11:58:03
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My understanding is that "the Cult of the Dragon" is really more like "the Cults of the Dragon", a loose collection of semi-independent splinter cults which each have slightly different interpretations of Sammaster's writings and wildly different ideas about how to best implement their objectives (or even what those objectives should be).
Their central prophecy already hinges around differing (mis)translations of the (in)famous line "(and the dead) dragons shall rule the world entirely" which others find disagreeable. I can't imagine different Cult cells under different leaders (and different dracoliches) will easily agree on anything when overlapping territories or conflicting priorities effectively put them in competition or involve disadvantageous risks/costs/rewards for their faction. I think of the Cult(s) as operating somewhat like political parties/blocks or criminal cartels/syndicates ... allied groups who naturally cooperate in common causes (ie: combined strength vs common enemies) ... and a number of competing groups/individuals/teams/gangs/cells who naturally exploit all others to promote their own selfish/treacherous interests and agendas (ie: unconcerned about how their "allies" fare once they've served their purpose and always willing to get ahead by pushing others back).
Remember that Cult members (or at least Cult leaders) tend to think in terms of draco-psychology ... their "hoard", their territory, their power, and their own intrinsic dominance(L)/superiority(N)/magnificence(C) are the things they value (and the measures by which they judge the values of others).
Their faith in apocalyptic prophecies means they're typically religious fanatics (so lots of schisms and zealous charismatics), they manufacture/enslave undeads which means they're amoral and categorically evil (so lots of infighting and betrayal to explain why they aren't a truly Realms-shaking threat), and they certainly don't have any reputation for moderation or cooperation with organizations outside of the Cult (which is why they operate underground).
So I think some of the Cults must consider Abeir part of "the world entirely" ... and they would be eager to expand their operations into Abeir. (More dragons = more dracoliches = more Cult.)
And I think other Cults would consider Abeir outside of their primary religious "mission" ... but they would happily add Abeir's dragons, peoples, magics, and resources to their "secular" operations. (At least they could always use Abeir as a fallback/hideout base of operations which isn't readily accessible to Mystra's Meddling Thrice-Damned Chosen.)
And I think there's probably even Cults who embrace extreme "orthodox" purist approaches ... unwilling to "taint", "corrupt", or "contaminate" their precious revered Torillian dracolich lineages with filthy "foreign" bloodlines. (They'd also be unwilling to tolerate the activities/presence of other Cults who create such polluted abominations.)
It's worth noting that Sammaster wrote the Tome of the Dragon long after Abeir-Toril's primordial separation and long before Abeir-Toril's Spellplague remix - and how could Sammaster foresee beyond the Spellplague (let alone document the prophecy) when apparently even Mystra had no idea it was coming? - yet it remains uncertain whether Sammaster could've had any knowledge of Abeir's existence.
So maybe once-Abeir-now-Toril parts of the landscape (and dragons, and even dragonborn) fall under the purview of Sammaster's prophecies or maybe they don't ... maybe their opposite counterparts do or don't ... these are only more details which can divide the Cult(s). |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 31 Mar 2019 12:12:00 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2019 : 16:02:35
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As a far as I know, after Sammaster's demise, many survivor cells began to believe that Sammaster got all wrong, and that the world was meant for living dragons instead of undead (this is the plot of Tyranny of Dragons). Seeing the state of affairs there, this can be seen as a confirmation that Sammaster indeed was wrong. So, I guess, this will depend on which cells went to Abeir.
As for dracoliches, we know they are possible in Abeir too (see Melauthaur, the ruler of Melabrauth, or the dragonborn's ancestor story "Hazor and the Jet-Black Tyrant"). But perhaps they are a lot more difficult to create because of the nature of magic in that world.
My question is: what kind of impact will a have a cult subservant to dragons in a world where dragons already have most of the population enslaved? I guess that the cells that still believe in Sammaster's vision will have still a goal (to turn the overlords into dracoliches), yet they would have to change their modus operandi completely. Offering subservience and treasure and dominion over the lands is something the dragons of Abeir already have and so don't need. It won't entice them into not eating/enslaving the cultists on sight.
Those cells that don't believe in Sammaster would have to repurpose their goals entirely. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 31 Mar 2019 16:19:58 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2019 : 17:07:38
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| But the Cult can offer Abeir's dragons compelling enticement ... all the treasures, territories, magics, power, slaves, servants, and other stuff these dragons could own on Toril. No dragon stays content with what it has when it knows it could have more. Especially when it knows other dragons can have (or already have) these things. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2019 : 18:16:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
My understanding is that "the Cult of the Dragon" is really more like "the Cults of the Dragon", a loose collection of semi-independent splinter cults which each have slightly different interpretations of Sammaster's writings and wildly different ideas about how to best implement their objectives (or even what those objectives should be).
Their central prophecy already hinges around differing (mis)translations of the (in)famous line "(and the dead) dragons shall rule the world entirely" which others find disagreeable. I can't imagine different Cult cells under different leaders (and different dracoliches) will easily agree on anything when overlapping territories or conflicting priorities effectively put them in competition or involve disadvantageous risks/costs/rewards for their faction. I think of the Cult(s) as operating somewhat like political parties/blocks or criminal cartels/syndicates ... allied groups who naturally cooperate in common causes (ie: combined strength vs common enemies) ... and a number of competing groups/individuals/teams/gangs/cells who naturally exploit all others to promote their own selfish/treacherous interests and agendas (ie: unconcerned about how their "allies" fare once they've served their purpose and always willing to get ahead by pushing others back).
Remember that Cult members (or at least Cult leaders) tend to think in terms of draco-psychology ... their "hoard", their territory, their power, and their own intrinsic dominance(L)/superiority(N)/magnificence(C) are the things they value (and the measures by which they judge the values of others).
Their faith in apocalyptic prophecies means they're typically religious fanatics (so lots of schisms and zealous charismatics), they manufacture/enslave undeads which means they're amoral and categorically evil (so lots of infighting and betrayal to explain why they aren't a truly Realms-shaking threat), and they certainly don't have any reputation for moderation or cooperation with organizations outside of the Cult (which is why they operate underground).
So I think some of the Cults must consider Abeir part of "the world entirely" ... and they would be eager to expand their operations into Abeir. (More dragons = more dracoliches = more Cult.)
And I think other Cults would consider Abeir outside of their primary religious "mission" ... but they would happily add Abeir's dragons, peoples, magics, and resources to their "secular" operations. (At least they could always use Abeir as a fallback/hideout base of operations which isn't readily accessible to Mystra's Meddling Thrice-Damned Chosen.)
And I think there's probably even Cults who embrace extreme "orthodox" purist approaches ... unwilling to "taint", "corrupt", or "contaminate" their precious revered Torillian dracolich lineages with filthy "foreign" bloodlines. (They'd also be unwilling to tolerate the activities/presence of other Cults who create such polluted abominations.)
It's worth noting that Sammaster wrote the Tome of the Dragon long after Abeir-Toril's primordial separation and long before Abeir-Toril's Spellplague remix - and how could Sammaster foresee beyond the Spellplague (let alone document the prophecy) when apparently even Mystra had no idea it was coming? - yet it remains uncertain whether Sammaster could've had any knowledge of Abeir's existence.
So maybe once-Abeir-now-Toril parts of the landscape (and dragons, and even dragonborn) fall under the purview of Sammaster's prophecies or maybe they don't ... maybe their opposite counterparts do or don't ... these are only more details which can divide the Cult(s).
Very good answer worth considering, and to be very clear here, the central question isn't whether there is truth in the idea that "this is what the prophecy really meant", but more can you see some of them believing it, and if so, what would they do.
After writing that up, it also occurred to me that there MAY already exist some undead dragons in Abeir (ghost dragons, vampiric dragons, skeleton dragons, etc...).
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2019 : 19:18:52
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Dracoliches exist in the Realms and other worlds/planes which weren't created by (or have anything to do with) the Cult.
I'm guessing some of them would've been liched by errant magical experiments/phenomena but most of them figured out how to (voluntarily) lich themselves. The 2E Draconomicon describes draconic religion/spirituality as generally looking forward to blissful draconic afterlife and generally viewing undead dragons as abhorrent things living dragons instinctively hate ... but the text also describes draconic spells for raising and resurrecting dead dragons. And we all know that dragons are intrinsically magical creatures, so the magically-consumed and magically-sustained path to lichdom must offer some appeal to some bold specimens. Humans generally abhor necromancies and undead humans while elves abhor necromancies and undead elves even more ... yet liches and baelnorns seem to inhabit literally hundreds of dungeons across the Realms ... if cultural and spiritual taboos can't stop these timid races from becoming liches then why should they stop a dragon? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2019 : 23:55:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
But the Cult can offer Abeir's dragons compelling enticement ... all the treasures, territories, magics, power, slaves, servants, and other stuff these dragons could own on Toril. No dragon stays content with what it has when it knows it could have more. Especially when it knows other dragons can have (or already have) these things.
Well, unless the Cult of the Dragon can offer a reliable passage between Abeir and Toril, for the abeiran dragons to enjoy the riches of Toril (good luck with that), I guess they really need some other, more feasible promises to offer to their new would-be masters. Dracolichdom is a really good incentive, but not all cells of the Cult want to deal with this anymore, not all dragons entertain this notion (even on Toril), and as you’ve pointed out, maybe not all the cells of the Cult may be willing to deal with abeiran dragons or offer them (or allow someone to offer them) the "blessing of undead" .
For the anti-undead faction of the Cult, I have this weird idea that they would sell themselves as better servants/assistants than the average slave. I mean, the dragons of Abeir must deal with dragonborn rebellions on a regular basis, and with unwilling slaves even among those who aren’t prone to rebellion. I guess that, since all abeiran dragons must be players of Xorvintaal (is the only explanation for why they haven’t killed each other to extinction, with so many dragons over there), the Cult can provide a better set of agents for their games. Or they can also offer their services to try to improve the quality of life for the slaves, to reduce the rate of rebellions a little bit, lol
Also, you mentioned that maybe some cells of the Cult may be willing to extend their "benefits" to dragonborn, and this reminded me that there is a cell of the Cult operating out of Tymanther, but no canon source ever expanded on their motives and goals. So, yes, is entirely possible for some cells to target dragonborn clans and try to change their “visions” about dragons. This perhaps can be a really good way to win the dragon overlords, too. They may offer to change the dragonborn's opinions about dragons (teaching them that they are not slaves but "exalted servants among the non-dragonborn", either diplomatically or by force if necessary), and/or offer “death knight-dom”/“great power for the living” to those rare dragonborn loyal to their dragon masters. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 01 Apr 2019 00:24:36 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2019 : 01:20:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
As a far as I know, after Sammaster's demise, many survivor cells began to believe that Sammaster got all wrong, and that the world was meant for living dragons instead of undead (this is the plot of Tyranny of Dragons). Seeing the state of affairs there, this can be seen as a confirmation that Sammaster indeed was wrong. So, I guess, this will depend on which cells went to Abeir.
As for dracoliches, we know they are possible in Abeir too (see Melauthaur, the ruler of Melabrauth, or the dragonborn's ancestor story "Hazor and the Jet-Black Tyrant"). But perhaps they are a lot more difficult to create because of the nature of magic in that world.
My question is: what kind of impact will a have a cult subservant to dragons in a world where dragons already have most of the population enslaved? I guess that the cells that still believe in Sammaster's vision will have still a goal (to turn the overlords into dracoliches), yet they would have to change their modus operandi completely. Offering subservience and treasure and dominion over the lands is something the dragons of Abeir already have and so don't need. It won't entice them into not eating/enslaving the cultists on sight.
Those cells that don't believe in Sammaster would have to repurpose their goals entirely.
What they can offer in such a world is a way for an underling dragon to gain a sudden "enhancement" that enables him to overthrow his own overlord. After all, dracoliches that are killed are reformed and have other additional powers. Living dragon overlords that are supremely ancient might also be worried about their own demise, and so they can offer a way to live longer.
Now that you mention there already being some dracoliches there, that might even be a recruiting tool. In other words "hey, you can be as powerful as the Jet-Black Tyrant".
Another thought is how would the Cult of the Dragon interact with the Eminence of Araunt, which presumably is much more active in Abeir than it is in Toril. Would the eminence appreciate the Cult and its goals? Would they try to help further them? Or would they consider it a threat to their own power? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2019 : 13:17:26
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quote:
Another thought is how would the Cult of the Dragon interact with the Eminence of Araunt, which presumably is much more active in Abeir than it is in Toril. Would the eminence appreciate the Cult and its goals? Would they try to help further them? Or would they consider it a threat to their own power?
The short story describes how the Cult recruits a blue dragon (and his mate). The Cult said nothing about undeath at all, they simply let the dragon assume/believe it would be a living dragon. Until they were able to exploit (create) an opportunity where the dragon was helpless, enraged, dying ... only then did they offer it their transformation potion (so it could have vengeance, etc). And even then they never mentioned the control/enslavement detail. The dragon didn't know it was a dracolich until too late, it didn't know it was being manipulated into slavery until too late, it didn't know it was victim and a puppet until too late. Had it known or even had the tiniest hint of any suspicion of any of these intentions (toward itself or toward any dragon) then it would not have restrained itself from slaying the Cult members who kept visiting its lair uninvited.
I think it's evident dragons are entirely unaware of the Cult's real intentions. And even if they are aware of dracoliches they aren't at all aware of the Cult's mental domination of dracoliches. The Cult has already managed to keep dragons unaware enough to create many dracoliches so I'm sure the Cult practices their deceptions very carefully. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2019 : 15:18:27
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Ayrik, sleyvas was talking about a cabal of undead who hail from Abeir and now exists in Faerűn as well. If you like, you can read about them in the FRCG.
I don't know how the Eminence will see the Cult activities. Is true (half of) the Cult is trying to increase the influence of undead, but the Eminence is more about ghosts and specters than liches (they don't like Szass Tam, so maybe they may not like liches). I don't know also how Lod's demise (in the Brotherhood of the Griffon novels) may have affected the ideals of the Eminence.
So, maybe the Eminence wouldn't be happy? Perhaps they see them as rivals? Or, much like the Cult, the Eminence may have divided into cells after Lod's destruction (the other leader mentioned in the FRCG unable to maintain unity), each one with their own visions and opinions, some glad with the Cult and others not, and others in between... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 01 Apr 2019 15:38:38 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2019 : 15:47:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Another thought is how would the Cult of the Dragon interact with the Eminence of Araunt, which presumably is much more active in Abeir than it is in Toril. Would the eminence appreciate the Cult and its goals? Would they try to help further them? Or would they consider it a threat to their own power?
The short story describes how the Cult recruits a blue dragon (and his mate). The Cult said nothing about undeath at all, they simply let the dragon assume/believe it would be a living dragon. Until they were able to exploit (create) an opportunity where the dragon was helpless, enraged, dying ... only then did they offer it their transformation potion (so it could have vengeance, etc). And even then they never mentioned the control/enslavement detail. The dragon didn't know it was a dracolich until too late, it didn't know it was being manipulated into slavery until too late, it didn't know it was victim and a puppet until too late. Had it known or even had the tiniest hint of any suspicion of any of these intentions (toward itself or toward any dragon) then it would not have restrained itself from slaying the Cult members who kept visiting its lair uninvited.
I think it's evident dragons are entirely unaware of the Cult's real intentions. And even if they are aware of dracoliches they aren't at all aware of the Cult's mental domination of dracoliches. The Cult has already managed to keep dragons unaware enough to create many dracoliches so I'm sure the Cult practices their deceptions very carefully.
That is a good point, that in many situations they might CREATE a situation that puts a dragon in peril so that it will be desperate enough to change into a dracolich and not even detail to the dragon the extent of what will happen to them. However, in some situations, it is known to the dracolich exactly what they want to do and exactly what they are offering. All of these options make for a very open ended scenario for how Abeir might have been affected by some CotD cultists appearing there. Thank you, you've given me some food for though.
That doesn't handle the interaction with the eminence of Araunt though, but as I see Zero responded, let me respond to that thread. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2019 : 18:13:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Another thought is how would the Cult of the Dragon interact with the Eminence of Araunt, which presumably is much more active in Abeir than it is in Toril. Would the eminence appreciate the Cult and its goals? Would they try to help further them? Or would they consider it a threat to their own power?
The short story describes how the Cult recruits a blue dragon (and his mate). The Cult said nothing about undeath at all, they simply let the dragon assume/believe it would be a living dragon. Until they were able to exploit (create) an opportunity where the dragon was helpless, enraged, dying ... only then did they offer it their transformation potion (so it could have vengeance, etc). And even then they never mentioned the control/enslavement detail. The dragon didn't know it was a dracolich until too late, it didn't know it was being manipulated into slavery until too late, it didn't know it was victim and a puppet until too late. Had it known or even had the tiniest hint of any suspicion of any of these intentions (toward itself or toward any dragon) then it would not have restrained itself from slaying the Cult members who kept visiting its lair uninvited.
I think it's evident dragons are entirely unaware of the Cult's real intentions. And even if they are aware of dracoliches they aren't at all aware of the Cult's mental domination of dracoliches. The Cult has already managed to keep dragons unaware enough to create many dracoliches so I'm sure the Cult practices their deceptions very carefully.
Aside from this short story you're referencing, which I am not familiar with, I'm not aware of anything in canon that says the dragon does not retain its independence. The dracolich write-up in the Cult of the Dragon sourcebook doesn't mention any kind of mental control, Dragons of Faerűn doesn't say anything like that (and in fact has a couple dracoliches controlling the Cult in Sembia), and nor does the 3E FRCS. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2019 : 18:53:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Ayrik, sleyvas was talking about a cabal of undead who hail from Abeir and now exists in Faerűn as well. If you like, you can read about them in the FRCG.
I don't know how the Eminence will see the Cult activities. Is true (half of) the Cult is trying to increase the influence of undead, but the Eminence is more about ghosts and specters than liches (they don't like Szass Tam, so maybe they may not like liches). I don't know also how Lod's demise (in the Brotherhood of the Griffon novels) may have affected the ideals of the Eminence.
So, maybe the Eminence wouldn't be happy? Perhaps they see them as rivals? Or, much like the Cult, the Eminence may have divided into cells after Lod's destruction (the other leader mentioned in the FRCG unable to maintain unity), each one with their own visions and opinions, some glad with the Cult and others not, and others in between...
Yes, the eminence is a group that creates portals using the "Codex of Araunt" to connect places of power for undead. They thus create an expanded realm of "principalities" in which undead can theoretically travel from one location to another to possibly help one another, or to gather and stage large scale raids on nearby territories, etc... Also, the eminence is different from say the twisted rune, as it tends to cull undead who are self-focused, such as vampires and liches, and tends towards guardians and soldiers (i.e. those who will take orders).
The Eminence of Araunt is a far-flung kingdom of the dead whose citizens across Returned Abeir (and now, Faerűn) are linked not by geography, but by a common ideal. The Eminence believes that every royal crypt and every forgotten corner of the world where undead yet serve masters long gone is actually a principality of Araunt. Sometimes tomb robbers notice the Eminence’s symbol (three vertical slashes) and wonder what it signifies, but few ever discover the truth.
Bear in mind, my original question is how would Abeir have been affected. Presumably, the eminence in Abeir was very widespread. You do bring up a good point indirectly though that I hadn't thought about. So, the leader of the eminence of Araunt effectively was separated from the greater part of his organization when the spellplague started. So the eminence in Abeir may have suddenly become fractious? Possibly infighting? Possibly even separating into separate cells because only the leader knew who they all were?
Then also comes along this other group who is fond of doing as Ayrik noted, turning dragons into undead, but also putting controls over them. Actually, the more I think on it, if THAT part were known, those two groups may definitely come into conflict, because the general idea behind the eminence is one of "undead have rights too", along with the general idea that only a handful are meant to lead and everyone else are "equals". Dragons are egotistical and would not consider themselves equals, and Cult members taking control of undead would be viewed in a dim light. This could lead possibly to some interesting interactions on the Abeir side for the last century, especially if the CotD were ever able to get ahold of a copy of the codex of Araunt while in Abeir. However, if it WEREN'T known that the CotD was controlling the dracoliches, could an undead dragon actually step into the vacuum of leadership within the eminence and take over portions (aka principalities of the eminence of Araunt)?
I guess the answer is going more and more towards "pretty much anything could have happened". It would be interesting though if the Banites of Mourktar stepped in in the absence of leadership within the Eminence of Araunt and provided some tyrannical leadership. Throw in that the temple of Bane in Mourktar actually possessed a living artifact of Bane (the Black Lord's Cloak), and you could have some interesting Shenanigans. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2019 : 20:04:10
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| I can't recall the source of the story. I think it was the 2E Cult of the Dragon sourcebook itself. Not published as a separate story (as far as I know) but instead written in the passages which prefaced each chapter - it provided a practical example for each chapter's main topic (how the Cult approaches and recruits a dragon, gains its trust and allegiance, gets it to drink the potion, controls it afterwards, etc). |
[/Ayrik] |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2019 : 20:26:52
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I guess the answer is going more and more towards "pretty much anything could have happened". It would be interesting though if the Banites of Mourktar stepped in in the absence of leadership within the Eminence of Araunt and provided some tyrannical leadership. Throw in that the temple of Bane in Mourktar actually possessed a living artifact of Bane (the Black Lord's Cloak), and you could have some interesting Shenanigans.
There is no lack of contact with the leadership of the Eminence after the Spellplague, as the deathways are conected to the Shadowfell, meaning the Eminence is the only group that has an effective known method to link Abeir and Toril (even post-Sundering). I guess this can bring a lot of possibilities...
My point is that the "principalities" on Abeir have always been in contact with the "new" ones on Toril and with their leaders.
No, the "lack" of leadership must have happened after Lod died in the last Brotherhood of Griffon novel, that takes place during the Sundering years (and I mean "lack", because Meremoth, the other leader, is still out there). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 01 Apr 2019 20:31:16 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2019 : 21:25:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I can't recall the source of the story. I think it was the 2E Cult of the Dragon sourcebook itself. Not published as a separate story (as far as I know) but instead written in the passages which prefaced each chapter - it provided a practical example for each chapter's main topic (how the Cult approaches and recruits a dragon, gains its trust and allegiance, gets it to drink the potion, controls it afterwards, etc).
The story does have a Cult mage being able to compel a dracolich, yes... But there's nothing else that indicates that the Cult can actually control dracoliches -- and the fact that some dracoliches have taken over Cult cells certainly would indicate that dracoliches remain independent.
I personally would suspect that the necromancer in question was using some personal ability over undead, since there is nothing else -- even in that book! -- to indicate that dracoliches are anything other than the top of the Cult food chain. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 01 Apr 2019 21:26:00 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2019 : 22:26:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I guess the answer is going more and more towards "pretty much anything could have happened". It would be interesting though if the Banites of Mourktar stepped in in the absence of leadership within the Eminence of Araunt and provided some tyrannical leadership. Throw in that the temple of Bane in Mourktar actually possessed a living artifact of Bane (the Black Lord's Cloak), and you could have some interesting Shenanigans.
There is no lack of contact with the leadership of the Eminence after the Spellplague, as the deathways are conected to the Shadowfell, meaning the Eminence is the only group that has an effective known method to link Abeir and Toril (even post-Sundering). I guess this can bring a lot of possibilities...
My point is that the "principalities" on Abeir have always been in contact with the "new" ones on Toril and with their leaders.
No, the "lack" of leadership must have happened after Lod died in the last Brotherhood of Griffon novel, that takes place during the Sundering years (and I mean "lack", because Meremoth, the other leader, is still out there).
Just wondering, is that documented anywhere that the portals that the eminence creates goes to the same shadowfell that Toril can interact with? If it were the case, I don't see why some of the transferred races wouldn't just have gone back home via the shadowfell. For instance, I get the idea that were it not for the Abyss falling into the elemental chaos, Abeir might not have been able to have had demons, but that's not documented anywhere. Basically, I get the idea that Abeir was very isolated as to what extraplanar connections it has.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2019 : 22:26:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I guess the answer is going more and more towards "pretty much anything could have happened". It would be interesting though if the Banites of Mourktar stepped in in the absence of leadership within the Eminence of Araunt and provided some tyrannical leadership. Throw in that the temple of Bane in Mourktar actually possessed a living artifact of Bane (the Black Lord's Cloak), and you could have some interesting Shenanigans.
There is no lack of contact with the leadership of the Eminence after the Spellplague, as the deathways are conected to the Shadowfell, meaning the Eminence is the only group that has an effective known method to link Abeir and Toril (even post-Sundering). I guess this can bring a lot of possibilities...
My point is that the "principalities" on Abeir have always been in contact with the "new" ones on Toril and with their leaders.
No, the "lack" of leadership must have happened after Lod died in the last Brotherhood of Griffon novel, that takes place during the Sundering years (and I mean "lack", because Meremoth, the other leader, is still out there).
Just wondering, is that documented anywhere that the portals that the eminence creates goes to the same shadowfell that Toril can interact with? If it were the case, I don't see why some of the transferred races wouldn't just have gone back home via the shadowfell. For instance, I get the idea that were it not for the Abyss falling into the elemental chaos, Abeir might not have been able to have had demons, but that's not documented anywhere. Basically, I get the idea that Abeir was very isolated as to what extraplanar connections it has.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2019 : 22:54:31
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Afaik, the official explanation for the Shadowfell is that is the same one for the multiverse. There are no other "Shadowfells" out there. So, the explanation for your question is the same for "why people from Toril don't end on Oerth while on the Shadowfell? ".
And the answer, at least in 4e (and, afaik, is still valid in 5e), is that you indeed can reach other worlds using the Shadowfell, you just need to know the proper paths. The deadways are one of such paths, but tunned to be usable for members of the Eminence only. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 01 Apr 2019 23:00:12 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2019 : 03:10:17
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| You could always have the real backer of the Cult be the Night Dragon, Falazure, who seeks to subsume the Chronepsis part of the Null gestalt by having 'Null' become associated with dracolichdom and the Cult in general. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2019 : 13:09:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I can't recall the source of the story. I think it was the 2E Cult of the Dragon sourcebook itself. Not published as a separate story (as far as I know) but instead written in the passages which prefaced each chapter - it provided a practical example for each chapter's main topic (how the Cult approaches and recruits a dragon, gains its trust and allegiance, gets it to drink the potion, controls it afterwards, etc).
The story does have a Cult mage being able to compel a dracolich, yes... But there's nothing else that indicates that the Cult can actually control dracoliches -- and the fact that some dracoliches have taken over Cult cells certainly would indicate that dracoliches remain independent.
I personally would suspect that the necromancer in question was using some personal ability over undead, since there is nothing else -- even in that book! -- to indicate that dracoliches are anything other than the top of the Cult food chain.
The way I see it the Cult were simply sly enough to realise this particular dragon would not have accepted dracolichdom openly before so they made the preparations in secret and "jumped" the dragon when it was at it's lowest. Which means that, contrary to other cases were the dragon was willing to transform and oversaw to the preparations personally (because who in their right mind wouldn't?), in this case the dragon ended up not being in possession of its own phylactery, hence the control the Cult can exert on it. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2019 : 14:56:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I can't recall the source of the story. I think it was the 2E Cult of the Dragon sourcebook itself. Not published as a separate story (as far as I know) but instead written in the passages which prefaced each chapter - it provided a practical example for each chapter's main topic (how the Cult approaches and recruits a dragon, gains its trust and allegiance, gets it to drink the potion, controls it afterwards, etc).
The story does have a Cult mage being able to compel a dracolich, yes... But there's nothing else that indicates that the Cult can actually control dracoliches -- and the fact that some dracoliches have taken over Cult cells certainly would indicate that dracoliches remain independent.
I personally would suspect that the necromancer in question was using some personal ability over undead, since there is nothing else -- even in that book! -- to indicate that dracoliches are anything other than the top of the Cult food chain.
The way I see it the Cult were simply sly enough to realise this particular dragon would not have accepted dracolichdom openly before so they made the preparations in secret and "jumped" the dragon when it was at it's lowest. Which means that, contrary to other cases were the dragon was willing to transform and oversaw to the preparations personally (because who in their right mind wouldn't?), in this case the dragon ended up not being in possession of its own phylactery, hence the control the Cult can exert on it.
A good point and a more likely scenario. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2019 : 15:34:27
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The FRCG has a kind of dracolich unique to the Cult named "ferreted dracolich", and in fact are dracoliches that are controlled by the Cult (which owns its phylactery).
Those instances are rare, and usually only happen to young dragons determined to be unfit to rule, or of having any other deficiency, by the Cult. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2019 : 19:58:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
The FRCG has a kind of dracolich unique to the Cult named "ferreted dracolich", and in fact are dracoliches that are controlled by the Cult (which owns its phylactery).
Those instances are rare, and usually only happen to young dragons determined to be unfit to rule, or of having any other deficiency, by the Cult.
Hmm, that explains why I wasn't familiar with the concept -- I rarely crack open that book.
Though... the description doesn't quite fit the scenario described in the Cult of the Dragon. Sadly, a disconnect between 4E lore and prior lore is not uncommon.
I like the concept, though not the FRCG execution. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 02 Apr 2019 19:59:54 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2019 : 21:28:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Afaik, the official explanation for the Shadowfell is that is the same one for the multiverse. There are no other "Shadowfells" out there. So, the explanation for your question is the same for "why people from Toril don't end on Oerth while on the Shadowfell? ".
And the answer, at least in 4e (and, afaik, is still valid in 5e), is that you indeed can reach other worlds using the Shadowfell, you just need to know the proper paths. The deadways are one of such paths, but tunned to be usable for members of the Eminence only.
Exactly. There's supposedly only one shadowfell. There's supposedly also only one set of elemental planes. There's supposedly also only one set of outer planes. Yet we have issues where what happens to the orcus of greyhawk doesn't happen to the Orcus of Toril. This is repeated across many platforms. Then factor in that noone is considering using any of these multiple interconnects when discussing getting back to Abeir in like the novels, but if they had been on Abeir and knew that there was an elemental plane and how to get back to Abeir there, and they learn how to find Toril's connection on the elemental plane, etc... they should be able to use that or outer planar connections etc..
Yet they make it out like the two are totally out of phase and going from one world to the other would be hard. That's why I wonder if they ever canonized that the deathways actually traverse both worlds.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2019 : 21:30:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Afaik, the official explanation for the Shadowfell is that is the same one for the multiverse. There are no other "Shadowfells" out there. So, the explanation for your question is the same for "why people from Toril don't end on Oerth while on the Shadowfell? ".
And the answer, at least in 4e (and, afaik, is still valid in 5e), is that you indeed can reach other worlds using the Shadowfell, you just need to know the proper paths. The deadways are one of such paths, but tunned to be usable for members of the Eminence only.
Exactly. There's supposedly only one shadowfell. There's supposedly also only one set of elemental planes. There's supposedly also only one set of outer planes. Yet we have issues where what happens to the orcus of greyhawk doesn't happen to the Orcus of Toril. This is repeated across many platforms. Then factor in that noone is considering using any of these multiple interconnects when discussing getting back to Abeir in like the novels, but if they had been on Abeir and knew that there was an elemental plane and how to get back to Abeir there, and they learn how to find Toril's connection on the elemental plane, etc... they should be able to use that or outer planar connections etc..
Yet they make it out like the two are totally out of phase and going from one world to the other would be hard. That's why I wonder if they ever canonized that the deathways actually traverse both worlds.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2019 : 22:40:33
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I don't think that this particular propierty of the Planes is something everybody knows. I mean, in "The Devil You Know" people was geniunely surprised when they learned Graz'tz was doing stuff on Abeir. And I'm talking about learned scholars here, such as high ranking Harpers.
And is not as if people really want to return there. Compared with Toril, Abeir is a nightmare world.
As for the gods and demons and the like, it hasn't been stated elsewhere that what happens to an aspect of the god doesn't affect the entity as a whole? |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2019 : 07:57:50
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| "Transitive" planes like the Ethereal, Astral, and Shadowfell might theoretically overlap and connect with every other plane in the cosmos. But that doesn't mean such connections have to be easy or travel through such planes is workable in practice. The "distance" between two Prime worlds in the Shadowfell might be nearly infinite. In the Toril-to-Abeir instance it might have been deliberately obfuscated or designed (by Ao) to keep the Primordials, Gods, and denizens of the two realms as isolated from each other as possible. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2019 : 16:56:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
"Transitive" planes like the Ethereal, Astral, and Shadowfell might theoretically overlap and connect with every other plane in the cosmos. But that doesn't mean such connections have to be easy or travel through such planes is workable in practice. The "distance" between two Prime worlds in the Shadowfell might be nearly infinite. In the Toril-to-Abeir instance it might have been deliberately obfuscated or designed (by Ao) to keep the Primordials, Gods, and denizens of the two realms as isolated from each other as possible.
Hmmm, that's a good point too there. While they're IN THEORY right on top of each other but like "out of phase" in the same crystal sphere, that doesn't mean their other planar connections are even remotely close. Ok, this idea is one I think is something that should be canonized.
Hmmm, and even further... I love the idea that they're "obfuscated" somehow from one another for an entirely selfish reason. It gives Leira a purpose in making sure the two worlds can't "find" each other accidentally. Makes that goddess of lies very important to Ao in ways that we don't normally think about. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 03 Apr 2019 16:59:47 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2019 : 20:31:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Just a thought but isn't the creation of ddacoliches dependent upon a copy of the tome of the Dragon which over the impression are quite rare (some cult cells do not possess one so cannot create them). Which means of the few people surviving the trip to mythical unicorn land, one must possess this rare tome
Cult of the Dragon doesn't say that the Tome is required to make a dracolich -- but information from it is. So to me it's quite reasonable to assume that the process itself has been transcribed elsewhere.
Additionally, even if a copy of the Tome of the Dragon was absolutely integral to the way the Cult does it, we know there are dracoliches that weren't created by the Cult.
And given that there are multiple paths to lichdom for humans and demihumans, it stands to reason that the same applies to dragons seeking lichdom.
The biggest thing the Cult has to offer is that they have a (kinda-sorta) proven process. There's a hell of a difference between building your own home from the ground up, by yourself, and buying an existing, professionally-built and designed home. |
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Cult of the Dragon in Abeir during spellplague yrs
