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Copper Elven Vampire
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552 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2019 :  06:37:39  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
The Chaos Bringers of Vezzenvazzel Ahmaquissar; Minor Artifact, Relic.

Crafted in -23,0100 DR, during the first flowering of the elves by Vezzenvazzel Ahmaquissar. These anarchic sister swords are powerful unto themselves, but once wielded together, and with the right divine connection, they are a force to reckon with among friends or foes.

Only a Cleric of Erevan Ilesere may wield these twin swords and utilize their full potential. All others who attempt to grasp the blades must make a Fort save DC 25 or take five negative levels as long as they hold the weapons.

Hidden Smile; A +5 holy, anarchic, vorpal longsword of spell-storing.

Price (Item Level): 500,320 gp (30th)
Body Slot: (held)
Caster Level: 30th
Aura: Strong; (DC 35)
transmutation
Activation:
Weight: 2 lb.

The hilt of this elven longsword is set with four moonstones. The blade itself is inscribed with the name "Hidden smile" written in elvish along its length.

Relic Power If you have established the proper divine connection, "Hidden Smile" reveals its intelligence and sentience. (AL CN; Int 19, Wis 19, Cha 10; speech, telepathy, darkvision 120 ft., hearing; Ego score 75).

In addition, HiddenSmile can use these lesser powers.

*Item can cure moderate wounds (2d8+3) on wielder 3/day.
*Item can cast major image 1/day.
*Item can use hold person on an enemy 3/day.
*Item has deathwatch continually active.

In addition, Hidden Smile can use these Greater powers.

*Item creates wall of fire in a ring with the wielder at the center 1/day.
*Item can create deeper darkness 3/day.

In addition Hidden Smile has a special purpose of slaying divine spellcasters (including divine entities and servitors).

Its dedicated power is; Item can cast 15d6 greater shout 3/day.



Quick sneak A +5 holy, anarchic, spell-storing, short sword of speed.

Price (Item Level): 500,320 gp (30th)
Body Slot: (held)
Caster Level: 30th
Aura: Strong; (DC 35)
transmutation
Activation:
Weight: 1 lb.

The hilt of this elven shortsword is set with four moonstones. The blade itself is inscribed with the name "Quick Sneak" written in elvish along its length.

Relic Power If you have established the proper divine connection, "Quick Sneak" reveals its intelligence and sentience. (AL CN; Int 10, Wis 19, Cha 19; speech, telepathy, darkvision 120 ft., hearing; Ego score 74).

In addition, Quick Sneak can use these lesser powers.

*Item can bless its allies 3/day.
*Item can cast darkness 3/day.
*Item can use locate object 3/day.
*Item can use daze monster 3/day.

In addition, Quick Sneak can use these Greater powers.

*Item can use haste on its owner 3/day.
*Item can use lesser globe of invulnerability 1/day.

In addition Quick Sneak has a special purpose of slaying arcane spellcasters (including spellcasting monsters and those that use spell-like abilities).

Its dedicated power is; Item can use confusion at max HD 1/day.

Relic special purpose: When both swords are used together in combat, you can utilize the chaotic power of Erevan Ilesere to use the following powers.

*Hidden Smile; Maw of Chaos, 1/day.
*Quick Sneak; Chaos Hammer, 1/day.

Edited by - Copper Elven Vampire on 10 Apr 2019 08:28:37

Copper Elven Vampire
Senior Scribe

552 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2019 :  07:15:21  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
One of my best works since 3.5ed.
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Copper Elven Vampire
Senior Scribe

552 Posts

Posted - 26 Aug 2019 :  18:47:08  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm about to put these in game play tonight with Curudin as a test subject in an epic level encounter.

Then I will try these swords again, right after with a 10th level character in a normal encounter just to test them out.

Do you guys think these artifacts/Relics are overpowered or just right?
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LordofBones
Senior Scribe

939 Posts

Posted - 27 Aug 2019 :  03:56:30  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A lot of these powers just seem really random. Why does Erevan have artifacts dedicated to killing casters?
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Copper Elven Vampire
Senior Scribe

552 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2019 :  22:27:25  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

A lot of these powers just seem really random. Why does Erevan have artifacts dedicated to killing casters?



Erevan doesn't. Vezzenvazzel Ahmaquissar does/did, in the name of Erevan Ilesere back during the First Flowering of the elves, when magic went far beyond 9th level spells. So hence, it's a holy artifact dedicated to Erevan, but serving the purposes of the cleric who created it.

You said "A lot of these powers just seem really random". Random IS Erevan Ilesere and his entire dogma. So why wouldn't a ancient Legendary Cleric of the trickster create two powerful swords with random powers? I'm pretty sure I used all the 3.5ED rules when "crafting" them. If I didn't, please notify me and I'll correct them.

Thank you LOB.

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LordofBones
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939 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2019 :  22:51:00  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, thematically, how do the swords represent Erevan and/or his interests? Why holy? Why vorpal and deathwatch? Why slaying spellcasters? Erevan is basically the god of parties. Something like detect poison is thematically more fitting.

Edited by - LordofBones on 13 Sep 2019 01:29:21
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
1466 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2019 :  23:40:14  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

I'm about to put these in game play tonight with Curudin as a test subject in an epic level encounter.

Then I will try these swords again, right after with a 10th level character in a normal encounter just to test them out.

Do you guys think these artifacts/Relics are overpowered or just right?



For the price, they are wildly overpowered.

I explained where you are misinterpreting the epic magic costing in the other thread.

In addition, the relic powers are over the top and do not have the example constraints of the relic system.

--Eric

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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LordofBones
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939 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2019 :  01:33:25  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

I'm about to put these in game play tonight with Curudin as a test subject in an epic level encounter.

Then I will try these swords again, right after with a 10th level character in a normal encounter just to test them out.

Do you guys think these artifacts/Relics are overpowered or just right?



For the price, they are wildly overpowered.

I explained where you are misinterpreting the epic magic costing in the other thread.

In addition, the relic powers are over the top and do not have the example constraints of the relic system.

--Eric



To be fair, the items' dedicated powers are largely superfluous. At the level the blades come into play, cure moderate wounds, daze monster, lesser globe, deeper darkness etc seldom come into play in a CR appropriate encounter.
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Copper Elven Vampire
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552 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2019 :  04:00:00  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

I'm about to put these in game play tonight with Curudin as a test subject in an epic level encounter.

Then I will try these swords again, right after with a 10th level character in a normal encounter just to test them out.

Do you guys think these artifacts/Relics are overpowered or just right?



For the price, they are wildly overpowered.

I explained where you are misinterpreting the epic magic costing in the other thread.

In addition, the relic powers are over the top and do not have the example constraints of the relic system.

--Eric



I do understand... I do. And thank you for giving advice on this. I'm looking to have Vezzenvazzel create exactly what I have written above, but within game terms, and as you know I'm not particularly correct with my math on item creations.

In the high days of the city of Sharlarion, magic was indeed stupendous in power. Elven High Magic was available to any elf with high enough wisdom, intelligence and charisma. Not just secluded to the arcane arts, as we all know. Elven Clerics, Druids and more could cast High Elven spells before Karsus broke the system of magic in the realms. A 14'th level cleric spell casted into an elven item prior to the fall of Karsus was not unheard of even by High elven magic standards.

The Shattering Swords of Coronal Ynloeth for example... Without the Gauntlet, even a elven High Mage would be shredded. I'm looking for that level of power for both swords combined. Something legendary and beyond epic level. But yet, if you use it in combat there are limitations and it takes a small toll on hitpoints or wisdom or something.
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Copper Elven Vampire
Senior Scribe

552 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2019 :  04:29:01  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Okay, thematically, how do the swords represent Erevan and/or his interests? Why holy? Why vorpal and deathwatch? Why slaying spellcasters? Erevan is basically the god of parties. Something like detect poison is thematically more fitting.




Firstly... the swords don't represent Erevan Ilesere, as much as they do the interests of the Cleric who crafted them in his name.

Why Holy?... Because as a Cleric of Erevan that's just what you'd do. A sacred weapon to represent your faith.

Why Vorpal and Deathwatch?... There is no weapon ability more feared than a Vorpal weapon, and when you're a 30th + level Cleric, why not make the most powerful weapon you can in the name of your deity? Deathwatch is also just as important to a Cleric who adventures his entire long life. It's like always having a companion watching your camp. lol.

Why slaying spellcasters?... Again, redundant.... The Cleric who created these twin swords obviously had a need to destroy divine and arcane casters!

Erevan is the god of parties to you?? I see Erevan Ilesere as much, much, much more than that my friend.

Erevan Ilesere is elven chaos, elven mischief, elven randomness and elven life wrapped up in a huge cosmos of eternity.

One Cleric of Erevan may cast a spell of healing on a friend, or another Cleric of Erevan may cast a spell of Inflict wounds on an enemy. The creed and dogma of Erevan are set in stone, but the way you go about getting to your end goal is quite another.

Erevan, The God of Parties; is not anything even remotely close to the truth. I have 25 + years of in depth study on Erevan Ilesere. I think possibly, you need to do some realms research on Erevan and his many adventures and misadventures before you can come to a conclusion on how a cleric of his can craft a set of weapons like this over 26,000 years ago.

Sorry LOB, but you called me out and I respond with knowledge on Erevan. Keep the comment flow going. I want to hear from you.

CEV
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LordofBones
Senior Scribe

939 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2019 :  08:01:50  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Okay, thematically, how do the swords represent Erevan and/or his interests? Why holy? Why vorpal and deathwatch? Why slaying spellcasters? Erevan is basically the god of parties. Something like detect poison is thematically more fitting.




Firstly... the swords don't represent Erevan Ilesere, as much as they do the interests of the Cleric who crafted them in his name.

Why Holy?... Because as a Cleric of Erevan that's just what you'd do. A sacred weapon to represent your faith.

Why Vorpal and Deathwatch?... There is no weapon ability more feared than a Vorpal weapon, and when you're a 30th + level Cleric, why not make the most powerful weapon you can in the name of your deity? Deathwatch is also just as important to a Cleric who adventures his entire long life. It's like always having a companion watching your camp. lol.

Why slaying spellcasters?... Again, redundant.... The Cleric who created these twin swords obviously had a need to destroy divine and arcane casters!

Erevan is the god of parties to you?? I see Erevan Ilesere as much, much, much more than that my friend.

Erevan Ilesere is elven chaos, elven mischief, elven randomness and elven life wrapped up in a huge cosmos of eternity.

One Cleric of Erevan may cast a spell of healing on a friend, or another Cleric of Erevan may cast a spell of Inflict wounds on an enemy. The creed and dogma of Erevan are set in stone, but the way you go about getting to your end goal is quite another.

Erevan, The God of Parties; is not anything even remotely close to the truth. I have 25 + years of in depth study on Erevan Ilesere. I think possibly, you need to do some realms research on Erevan and his many adventures and misadventures before you can come to a conclusion on how a cleric of his can craft a set of weapons like this over 26,000 years ago.

Sorry LOB, but you called me out and I respond with knowledge on Erevan. Keep the comment flow going. I want to hear from you.

CEV



The Holy weapon ability represents the weapon being infused with the raw power of good. Why holy instead of holy power? Holy doesn't even represent Erevan personally, as a CN God, the weapon ability associated with him would be anarchic.

Vorpal? This actually fits Erevan as it is a chance based ability, but from a meta game standpoint, vorpal is seriously overhyped.

The only things that stand out as being appropriate for a 30th level caster's equipment are maw and word of chaos. Why would a 30th level caster want to bother cure moderate wounds instead of heal? To make things even worse, that CMW effect has a caster level of 3.

And Erevan's entry in Demihuman Deities makes it clear he's a hyperactive sylvan-loving prankster with a weakness for wine.
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Copper Elven Vampire
Senior Scribe

552 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2019 :  09:49:42  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Okay, thematically, how do the swords represent Erevan and/or his interests? Why holy? Why vorpal and deathwatch? Why slaying spellcasters? Erevan is basically the god of parties. Something like detect poison is thematically more fitting.




Firstly... the swords don't represent Erevan Ilesere, as much as they do the interests of the Cleric who crafted them in his name.

Why Holy?... Because as a Cleric of Erevan that's just what you'd do. A sacred weapon to represent your faith.

Why Vorpal and Deathwatch?... There is no weapon ability more feared than a Vorpal weapon, and when you're a 30th + level Cleric, why not make the most powerful weapon you can in the name of your deity? Deathwatch is also just as important to a Cleric who adventures his entire long life. It's like always having a companion watching your camp. lol.

Why slaying spellcasters?... Again, redundant.... The Cleric who created these twin swords obviously had a need to destroy divine and arcane casters!

Erevan is the god of parties to you?? I see Erevan Ilesere as much, much, much more than that my friend.

Erevan Ilesere is elven chaos, elven mischief, elven randomness and elven life wrapped up in a huge cosmos of eternity.

One Cleric of Erevan may cast a spell of healing on a friend, or another Cleric of Erevan may cast a spell of Inflict wounds on an enemy. The creed and dogma of Erevan are set in stone, but the way you go about getting to your end goal is quite another.

Erevan, The God of Parties; is not anything even remotely close to the truth. I have 25 + years of in depth study on Erevan Ilesere. I think possibly, you need to do some realms research on Erevan and his many adventures and misadventures before you can come to a conclusion on how a cleric of his can craft a set of weapons like this over 26,000 years ago.

Sorry LOB, but you called me out and I respond with knowledge on Erevan. Keep the comment flow going. I want to hear from you.

CEV



The Holy weapon ability represents the weapon being infused with the raw power of good. Why holy instead of holy power? Holy doesn't even represent Erevan personally, as a CN God, the weapon ability associated with him would be anarchic.

Vorpal? This actually fits Erevan as it is a chance based ability, but from a meta game standpoint, vorpal is seriously overhyped.

The only things that stand out as being appropriate for a 30th level caster's equipment are maw and word of chaos. Why would a 30th level caster want to bother cure moderate wounds instead of heal? To make things even worse, that CMW effect has a caster level of 3.

And Erevan's entry in Demihuman Deities makes it clear he's a hyperactive sylvan-loving prankster with a weakness for wine.



Holy does NOT represent good. Holy could be evil or neutral even. Holy is a standard for divine convictions. Holy, Unholy... same animal.

I agree with you on Vorpal. It's chance based. perfect.

Anarchic is in the swords... both swords... Holy and anarchic.

A Holy sword of Erevan means it's chaotic, good in purpose, but holy in effect nonetheless. You could also make a unholy sword, which is the same concept but evil.

So a Holy, Anarchic, Vorpal longsword of spell-storing means this... It is a good based sword, that has anarchic tendencies, cuts people heads off on a whim and can hold a select spell you cast into it.

How is this hard to understand?
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Copper Elven Vampire
Senior Scribe

552 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2019 :  10:03:17  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As a CN character you can go two ways... You can go on the median or chaotic. or both. Neutral means you are 50/50 on all decisions. CN means you veer towards anarchic tendencies on your 50/50. So a holy sword to a CN elf means that the sword itself can go 2 ways and the wielder can go 2 ways. To be evil, would be unholy. CE or NE. NOT CN.
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Copper Elven Vampire
Senior Scribe

552 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2019 :  10:10:47  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Lmao... I mean there is nothing in CN that says evil. A holy sword of Erevan Ilesere, (who is CG), wielded by a CN PC is absolutely fine and bluntly black and white when it comes to alignment. As long as the PC is either Chaotic or neutral and not evil, you're good to go.

I mean... you know this basic stuff, right?
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LordofBones
Senior Scribe

939 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2019 :  00:40:09  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Okay, thematically, how do the swords represent Erevan and/or his interests? Why holy? Why vorpal and deathwatch? Why slaying spellcasters? Erevan is basically the god of parties. Something like detect poison is thematically more fitting.




Firstly... the swords don't represent Erevan Ilesere, as much as they do the interests of the Cleric who crafted them in his name.

Why Holy?... Because as a Cleric of Erevan that's just what you'd do. A sacred weapon to represent your faith.

Why Vorpal and Deathwatch?... There is no weapon ability more feared than a Vorpal weapon, and when you're a 30th + level Cleric, why not make the most powerful weapon you can in the name of your deity? Deathwatch is also just as important to a Cleric who adventures his entire long life. It's like always having a companion watching your camp. lol.

Why slaying spellcasters?... Again, redundant.... The Cleric who created these twin swords obviously had a need to destroy divine and arcane casters!

Erevan is the god of parties to you?? I see Erevan Ilesere as much, much, much more than that my friend.

Erevan Ilesere is elven chaos, elven mischief, elven randomness and elven life wrapped up in a huge cosmos of eternity.

One Cleric of Erevan may cast a spell of healing on a friend, or another Cleric of Erevan may cast a spell of Inflict wounds on an enemy. The creed and dogma of Erevan are set in stone, but the way you go about getting to your end goal is quite another.

Erevan, The God of Parties; is not anything even remotely close to the truth. I have 25 + years of in depth study on Erevan Ilesere. I think possibly, you need to do some realms research on Erevan and his many adventures and misadventures before you can come to a conclusion on how a cleric of his can craft a set of weapons like this over 26,000 years ago.

Sorry LOB, but you called me out and I respond with knowledge on Erevan. Keep the comment flow going. I want to hear from you.

CEV



The Holy weapon ability represents the weapon being infused with the raw power of good. Why holy instead of holy power? Holy doesn't even represent Erevan personally, as a CN God, the weapon ability associated with him would be anarchic.

Vorpal? This actually fits Erevan as it is a chance based ability, but from a meta game standpoint, vorpal is seriously overhyped.

The only things that stand out as being appropriate for a 30th level caster's equipment are maw and word of chaos. Why would a 30th level caster want to bother cure moderate wounds instead of heal? To make things even worse, that CMW effect has a caster level of 3.

And Erevan's entry in Demihuman Deities makes it clear he's a hyperactive sylvan-loving prankster with a weakness for wine.



Holy does NOT represent good. Holy could be evil or neutral even. Holy is a standard for divine convictions. Holy, Unholy... same animal.

I agree with you on Vorpal. It's chance based. perfect.

Anarchic is in the swords... both swords... Holy and anarchic.

A Holy sword of Erevan means it's chaotic, good in purpose, but holy in effect nonetheless. You could also make a unholy sword, which is the same concept but evil.

So a Holy, Anarchic, Vorpal longsword of spell-storing means this... It is a good based sword, that has anarchic tendencies, cuts people heads off on a whim and can hold a select spell you cast into it.

How is this hard to understand?



1. You're misunderstanding the text. The holy weapon ability represents the raw power of good imbued into a weapon, which is why hoy weapons are automatically good aligned and harm evil creatures. 'Holy' does not mean 'divine' in D&D; divine damage is something entirely separate.

I'll even quote the text from the SRD:

A holy weapon is imbued with holy power. This power makes the weapon good-aligned and thus bypasses the corresponding damage reduction. It deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against all of evil alignment. It bestows one negative level on any evil creature attempting to wield it. The negative level remains as long as the weapon is in hand and disappears when the weapon is no longer wielded. This negative level never results in actual level loss, but it cannot be overcome in any way (including restoration spells) while the weapon is wielded. Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the holy power upon their ammunition.

Moderate evocation [good]; CL 7th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, holy smite, creator must be good; Price +2 bonus.

It would be the go-to quality for good-aligned deities, like unholy for evil, anarchic for chaotic and axiomatic for lawful deities. I'm baffled as to how a cleric of Erevan could have crafted these weapons, when holy smite only appears as part of the Good domain...which Erevan does not offer.
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
1466 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2019 :  03:21:33  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

The Shattering Swords of Coronal Ynloeth for example... Without the Gauntlet, even a elven High Mage would be shredded. I'm looking for that level of power for both swords combined. Something legendary and beyond epic level. But yet, if you use it in combat there are limitations and it takes a small toll on hit points or wisdom or something.



So first off, you can play the game however you like, and follow the rules as much or as little as you like. The rest of the comments are assuming you want to follow the rules as written and they work for your style of game.

My general comment would be that you are not following the "less is more" philosophy that I think is good for game design. If you really want to create a cool item, think about the one thing that differentiates it. For example, the Shattering Swords are memorable because they break apart into a whirling cloud of blade fragments. It's not because they are anarchic holy vorpal etc. swords that are intelligent with special abilities and relics with special abilities.

In addition, it feels like you are trying to create minor artifacts, not magic items that follow the rules. But even there, you don't want to overload the abilities. Keep it simple and focused and it will be much more memorable.

According to the Magic Item Compendium, page 226, a 20th level character should have a few items worth 80-100k. According to the DMG, page 127, the total value of the gear for a 20th level NPC should be about 220k. So that's 2 powerful items (weapon? armor?) and some other stuff. A +5 weapon is about 50k. A suit fo +5 armor is about 25k. That leaves about 145k for signature items.

Here's what I did recently for an offstage over-the-top NPC who is a Male middle-aged moon elf fighter 17 / avenging executioner 5. (The latter is a prestige class from Complete Scoundrel.) His possessions are: Dragathil (unique item), harness of the vermillion heart (unique item), Iolaavutha (+4 corrosive dragonbone composite longbow [+1]) (see page 315), mail of Mrinabnahor (+5 dragoncraft black dragonhide banded mail), shield of Mrinabnahor (+4 black dragonhide large shield)

Expected GP Value: 265,000 gp. (See Epic Level Handbook, page 317.) Actual Value: 50,600 (+4 corrosive dragonbone composite longbow [+1]) + 36,400 gp (+5 dragoncraft black dragonhide banded mail) +125,720 gp (Dragothil) +32,500 gp (harness of the vermillion heart) +16,170 gp (+4 black dragonhide heavy shield) = 261,390 gp.

I may well have a math error in there, but the point is that the gear is thematic and keeps within the limits of an epic level fighter, without going over the top.

Just my two cents.

--Eric

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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Copper Elven Vampire
Senior Scribe

552 Posts

Posted - 14 Sep 2019 :  05:19:49  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Okay, thematically, how do the swords represent Erevan and/or his interests? Why holy? Why vorpal and deathwatch? Why slaying spellcasters? Erevan is basically the god of parties. Something like detect poison is thematically more fitting.




Firstly... the swords don't represent Erevan Ilesere, as much as they do the interests of the Cleric who crafted them in his name.

Why Holy?... Because as a Cleric of Erevan that's just what you'd do. A sacred weapon to represent your faith.

Why Vorpal and Deathwatch?... There is no weapon ability more feared than a Vorpal weapon, and when you're a 30th + level Cleric, why not make the most powerful weapon you can in the name of your deity? Deathwatch is also just as important to a Cleric who adventures his entire long life. It's like always having a companion watching your camp. lol.

Why slaying spellcasters?... Again, redundant.... The Cleric who created these twin swords obviously had a need to destroy divine and arcane casters!

Erevan is the god of parties to you?? I see Erevan Ilesere as much, much, much more than that my friend.

Erevan Ilesere is elven chaos, elven mischief, elven randomness and elven life wrapped up in a huge cosmos of eternity.

One Cleric of Erevan may cast a spell of healing on a friend, or another Cleric of Erevan may cast a spell of Inflict wounds on an enemy. The creed and dogma of Erevan are set in stone, but the way you go about getting to your end goal is quite another.

Erevan, The God of Parties; is not anything even remotely close to the truth. I have 25 + years of in depth study on Erevan Ilesere. I think possibly, you need to do some realms research on Erevan and his many adventures and misadventures before you can come to a conclusion on how a cleric of his can craft a set of weapons like this over 26,000 years ago.

Sorry LOB, but you called me out and I respond with knowledge on Erevan. Keep the comment flow going. I want to hear from you.

CEV



The Holy weapon ability represents the weapon being infused with the raw power of good. Why holy instead of holy power? Holy doesn't even represent Erevan personally, as a CN God, the weapon ability associated with him would be anarchic.

Vorpal? This actually fits Erevan as it is a chance based ability, but from a meta game standpoint, vorpal is seriously overhyped.

The only things that stand out as being appropriate for a 30th level caster's equipment are maw and word of chaos. Why would a 30th level caster want to bother cure moderate wounds instead of heal? To make things even worse, that CMW effect has a caster level of 3.

And Erevan's entry in Demihuman Deities makes it clear he's a hyperactive sylvan-loving prankster with a weakness for wine.



Holy does NOT represent good. Holy could be evil or neutral even. Holy is a standard for divine convictions. Holy, Unholy... same animal.

I agree with you on Vorpal. It's chance based. perfect.

Anarchic is in the swords... both swords... Holy and anarchic.

A Holy sword of Erevan means it's chaotic, good in purpose, but holy in effect nonetheless. You could also make a unholy sword, which is the same concept but evil.

So a Holy, Anarchic, Vorpal longsword of spell-storing means this... It is a good based sword, that has anarchic tendencies, cuts people heads off on a whim and can hold a select spell you cast into it.

How is this hard to understand?



1. You're misunderstanding the text. The holy weapon ability represents the raw power of good imbued into a weapon, which is why hoy weapons are automatically good aligned and harm evil creatures. 'Holy' does not mean 'divine' in D&D; divine damage is something entirely separate.

I'll even quote the text from the SRD:

A holy weapon is imbued with holy power. This power makes the weapon good-aligned and thus bypasses the corresponding damage reduction. It deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against all of evil alignment. It bestows one negative level on any evil creature attempting to wield it. The negative level remains as long as the weapon is in hand and disappears when the weapon is no longer wielded. This negative level never results in actual level loss, but it cannot be overcome in any way (including restoration spells) while the weapon is wielded. Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the holy power upon their ammunition.

Moderate evocation [good]; CL 7th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, holy smite, creator must be good; Price +2 bonus.

It would be the go-to quality for good-aligned deities, like unholy for evil, anarchic for chaotic and axiomatic for lawful deities. I'm baffled as to how a cleric of Erevan could have crafted these weapons, when holy smite only appears as part of the Good domain...which Erevan does not offer.



Wow, exhausting... I'm not quite sure what the gripe is here? Are you against CN Clerics crafting Holy weapons? In 30 + years of playing D&D since 1ED Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, I've never heard of any reason a CN cleric couldn't create a Holy weapon for himself and his deity. I understand that Anarchy is a better suited fix for a special ability, but this is also crafted in the Name of Erevan Ilesere, and the cleric of that god. I see no game mechanics that disallows this.
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LordofBones
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Posted - 14 Sep 2019 :  05:38:09  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There is.

Notably, holy weapons can only be crafted by good clerics with access to the Good domain, which Erevan does not provide. The 'holy' ability requires the caster to be able to cast holy smite. I'd just remove the ability entirely and add in some flavor text of being personally blessed by Erevan himself, allowing the blades to gain the holy/unholy (or holy power/unholy power) special ability when dealing damage to an evil/good opponent.

But frankly, the items have more issues than the holy ability, which is just a minor qualm. For one thing, your CMW ability is cast as a third level spell, daze monster has a 7HD cap, and lesser globe only nullifies 3rd level and below spells. I'd expect something more impressive from an epic level cleric backed up by his god and with access to elven high magic, unless he was somehow feeling really, really threatened by 10d6 fireballs and lightning bolts when as a 30th level cleric, his opponents should be throwing around quickened repeated wails of the banshee or intensified energy drains.

Also, confusion has no HD cap.

Basically, your weapon abilities are what make these relics epic, not their special powers. The only spells that matter here are word of chaos and maw, since anything of CR 30 is going to walk past your ring of fire and deal more than 2d8+3 damage just by sneezing.

Edited by - LordofBones on 14 Sep 2019 05:50:00
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Copper Elven Vampire
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Posted - 14 Sep 2019 :  06:04:03  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire

The Shattering Swords of Coronal Ynloeth for example... Without the Gauntlet, even a elven High Mage would be shredded. I'm looking for that level of power for both swords combined. Something legendary and beyond epic level. But yet, if you use it in combat there are limitations and it takes a small toll on hit points or wisdom or something.



So first off, you can play the game however you like, and follow the rules as much or as little as you like. The rest of the comments are assuming you want to follow the rules as written and they work for your style of game.

My general comment would be that you are not following the "less is more" philosophy that I think is good for game design. If you really want to create a cool item, think about the one thing that differentiates it. For example, the Shattering Swords are memorable because they break apart into a whirling cloud of blade fragments. It's not because they are anarchic holy vorpal etc. swords that are intelligent with special abilities and relics with special abilities.

In addition, it feels like you are trying to create minor artifacts, not magic items that follow the rules. But even there, you don't want to overload the abilities. Keep it simple and focused and it will be much more memorable.

According to the Magic Item Compendium, page 226, a 20th level character should have a few items worth 80-100k. According to the DMG, page 127, the total value of the gear for a 20th level NPC should be about 220k. So that's 2 powerful items (weapon? armor?) and some other stuff. A +5 weapon is about 50k. A suit fo +5 armor is about 25k. That leaves about 145k for signature items.

Here's what I did recently for an offstage over-the-top NPC who is a Male middle-aged moon elf fighter 17 / avenging executioner 5. (The latter is a prestige class from Complete Scoundrel.) His possessions are: Dragathil (unique item), harness of the vermillion heart (unique item), Iolaavutha (+4 corrosive dragonbone composite longbow [+1]) (see page 315), mail of Mrinabnahor (+5 dragoncraft black dragonhide banded mail), shield of Mrinabnahor (+4 black dragonhide large shield)

Expected GP Value: 265,000 gp. (See Epic Level Handbook, page 317.) Actual Value: 50,600 (+4 corrosive dragonbone composite longbow [+1]) + 36,400 gp (+5 dragoncraft black dragonhide banded mail) +125,720 gp (Dragothil) +32,500 gp (harness of the vermillion heart) +16,170 gp (+4 black dragonhide heavy shield) = 261,390 gp.

I may well have a math error in there, but the point is that the gear is thematic and keeps within the limits of an epic level fighter, without going over the top.

Just my two cents.

--Eric



My only Epic level character is Curudin Ahmaquissar; a Moon elf of 212 years old, Rogue 5/ Cleric 5/ Mischiefmake 10/ Shadowtrick Priest 10 of Erevan Ilesere, with the Trickster-Touched template added on to make a CR 32 PC. He's not looking to wield those twin swords, or don that ancient armor. At 30HD and a CR of 32 he hardly needs the extra benefits of the blades or armor. They are just Artifacts to one day seek out and find.

Currently he is equipped with a +4 Longsword of Storms in his main hand. A unique item that deals 1d12 Shocking damage per strike, on top of it's normal damage of 1d8. Plus he can call down a lightning bolt as a druid of his HD one time per day.

In his off-hand, he holds a +4 Vampiric short sword of precise strike.

He dons a +5 masterwork elven studded leather armor of disguise.

add a few baubles of varying power and you have him as a NPC. lol.

I'm just trying to create these legendary artifacts for the world of the FR to go seek and adventure for. Maybe I should write a disclaimer... "Not intended for actual game use." before each item, lol.
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Copper Elven Vampire
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Posted - 14 Sep 2019 :  06:33:01  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

There is.

Notably, holy weapons can only be crafted by good clerics with access to the Good domain, which Erevan does not provide. The 'holy' ability requires the caster to be able to cast holy smite. I'd just remove the ability entirely and add in some flavor text of being personally blessed by Erevan himself, allowing the blades to gain the holy/unholy (or holy power/unholy power) special ability when dealing damage to an evil/good opponent.

But frankly, the items have more issues than the holy ability, which is just a minor qualm. For one thing, your CMW ability is cast as a third level spell, daze monster has a 7HD cap, and lesser globe only nullifies 3rd level and below spells. I'd expect something more impressive from an epic level cleric backed up by his god and with access to elven high magic, unless he was somehow feeling really, really threatened by 10d6 fireballs and lightning bolts when as a 30th level cleric, his opponents should be throwing around quickened repeated wails of the banshee or intensified energy drains.

Also, confusion has no HD cap.

Basically, your weapon abilities are what make these relics epic, not their special powers. The only spells that matter here are word of chaos and maw, since anything of CR 30 is going to walk past your ring of fire and deal more than 2d8+3 damage just by sneezing.



Maybe black and white D&D that is the rule. But in our FR Confusion has a HD cap on the sword. Furthermore, those lesser powers and abilities are just perfect for lower level encounters when you don't need to wipe the room clean to prove you're epic. I mean, do you always cast your most powerful spell first, for example? Why cast Elminsters Spell Mantle, when all you need to do is cast Minor Globe of Invulnerability and you are good to go for 10th level NPC encounters. Just because you're an epic PC doesn't mean you never deal with lower level encounters.

BTW... it's an artifact... It's just an artifact. As a DM and using basic D&D math I have deduced that X = Y = Z + Ab and Zy = Artifact.

Put the Chaos Bringers in your campaign and limit the artifact any way you deem fit. They are Holy weapons crafted by a CN cleric of Erevan Ilesere over 25 thousand years ago. lol.
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LordofBones
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Posted - 14 Sep 2019 :  07:22:27  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You keep tossing 'black and white' D&D around. Maybe you should mention whatever houserules you're using so I don't have to judge the item based on the actual game rules instead of CEV's game world's rules.

Edited by - LordofBones on 14 Sep 2019 07:23:52
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Copper Elven Vampire
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Posted - 14 Sep 2019 :  20:35:40  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

You keep tossing 'black and white' D&D around. Maybe you should mention whatever houserules you're using so I don't have to judge the item based on the actual game rules instead of CEV's game world's rules.



Why do you have to judge anything to begin with? I'm looking for critique, suggestions, mathematical help, lore and history pertaining to the Ahmaquissar house lineage, etc... etc...

Who actually uses standard D&D basic rules anymore since 1ED Advanced D&D? When I go to D&D conventions across the country I see almost everyone augmenting the rules in any fashion they see fit that still concedes to the basic rules in some form or another. In Forgotten Realms a High elf is a Gold elf... a Moon elf is a Grey elf, a wild elf is a Grugach? I forget. lol.

As a CN deity, I see no reason a CN cleric couldn't craft a Holy sword in his name. By basic D&D rules, a Holy weapon is for good deities, and an Unholy weapon is for evil ones. Anarchic or Chaotic ones are for deities of chaos and Axiomatic or Lawful ones are for deities of law and justice. So if you're a CN god of a CG pantheon, then I see no reason that a Cleric of that god couldn't forge a Holy weapon in his name. Holy or unholy only means that religion plays a part in the weapon.

So for a CN deity, should I create a weapon with the "Libertine" ability? lol.

"It's not a holy weapon as my deity isn't good, but it's a Libertine weapon because I need to make it religious." said the laughing elf as he punched Erevan Ilesere in the face. lol.

And yes, a libertine is pretty much an atheist, so that compounds my point. I'm not really sure how to resolve this matter with you LOB.

If your a god or goddess... a deity... then any weapon you craft can have the Holy or Unholy ability just for the sheer fact that it represents a deity. A CN deity can have a Holy weapon or a Unholy weapon if the Cleric who created it is CN in alignment.

A CN character is neither good nor evil. So if you craft a weapon in the name of your CN deity then you need to decide at the moment of creation whether or not it'll be a Holy or Unholy weapon.

I totally get what you're saying LOB, I do. But this is not a Black and white issue. A CN PC of a CN deity can craft a Holy or unholy sword with the Anarchic qualities, but just not the axiomatic or lawful abilities.

Quote Erevan Ilesere; "Sorry guys, I'm not a good god, so you cannot have a holy weapon dedicated to me, sorry".

LOL.
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Copper Elven Vampire
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Posted - 15 Sep 2019 :  02:40:46  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also... My Chaos Bringers are not even close to being as epic as The Shattering Swords of Coronal Ynloeth.

With a mere word you can decimate an area of X = Y. No saving throws, no spell resistance. Just utter death.

My twin swords have many minor abilities and the major ones like Maw of Chaos and Chaos hammer are paltry compared to the Shattering Swords.

Plus, the Shattering swords have no restrictions on who can command them, besides being an elf.

Two +5 Longswords.... Total evisceration to all and any creatures within the area of effect, with no ST or skill check, or spell resistance. Absolutely insane. But wicked cool at the same time.

So damn epic that the wielder herself will be consumed by the twin blades itself unless they are wearing the Bracer of Ynloeth.

F'ing epic if there ever was an epic weapon.

Maybe the Dwarven Battle Axe "Twin Blades Alight" may come close to the power of the Shattering Swords. But most likely not.

Are the Nether Scrolls readable? Maybe to a handful of humanoids on Toril maybe. lol. That's truly epic.

My Chaos Bringers are just twin swords. A longsword and a shortsword.
+5 Holy, Anarchic swords. Each has the ability of Spell-storing, and one is Vorpal, and the other is Speed. They are both intelligent weapons and therefore produce the proper mathematically correct number of minor, major and special abilities. Including a intelligent weapons ability to have a special purpose.

All of those things cannot even come close to The Shattering Swords of Coronal Ynloeth.

DM; Your party is surrounded by a clan of 10 Werewolf Lords. 2 fighters, 2 rogues, 1 barbarian and 5 wizards.

Party; Oh Crap!

DM; Yeah, not looking so good.

Party; The Elf will use his Shattering Swords.

DM; ok, sounds fair.

Party; The copper elf dashes out into the melee and clashes his twin swords together. Reality fails all humanoids within the area of effect as they all die without ever having a chance at survival. The last thing the copper elf seen was a swarm of blade shards coming to eviscerate him for not wearing Ynloeths Bracer.

DM; I guess I'll go outside and have a beer, as this game is obviously over now. Every one is dead!

If that's not Super, insanely Epic then I'll eat my shirt.

My Chaos Bringers are far less powerful indeed, and can be used in any epic game without breaking any rules, like the Shattering Swords do.

If your an elf and you hold the Shattering Swords, and you wear the Bracer of Ynloeth, the you are invincible as long as you wield them.

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LordofBones
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Posted - 15 Sep 2019 :  04:51:08  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
As a CN deity, I see no reason a CN cleric couldn't craft a Holy sword in his name. By basic D&D rules, a Holy weapon is for good deities, and an Unholy weapon is for evil ones. Anarchic or Chaotic ones are for deities of chaos and Axiomatic or Lawful ones are for deities of law and justice. So if you're a CN god of a CG pantheon, then I see no reason that a Cleric of that god couldn't forge a Holy weapon in his name. Holy or unholy only means that religion plays a part in the weapon.


By basic D&D 3.5e rules. he can't. It's literally in the requirements; Erevan does not offer the spell needed to create a holy weapon. It's not part of his domain list. It's not part of the spells his clerics can cast.

quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven VampireIf your a god or goddess... a deity... then any weapon you craft can have the Holy or Unholy ability just for the sheer fact that it represents a deity. A CN deity can have a Holy weapon or a Unholy weapon if the Cleric who created it is CN in alignment.

A CN character is neither good nor evil. So if you craft a weapon in the name of your CN deity then you need to decide at the moment of creation whether or not it'll be a Holy or Unholy weapon.


By RAW and RAI? You can't. Because creating a holy or unholy weapon requires access to a spell you don't have unless you're of the appropriate alignment with access to the appropriate domain.

Does Erevan offer access to holy smite or unholy blight? That's your answer, right there.

quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven VampireI totally get what you're saying LOB, I do. But this is not a Black and white issue. A CN PC of a CN deity can craft a Holy or unholy sword with the Anarchic qualities, but just not the axiomatic or lawful abilities.

Quote Erevan Ilesere; "Sorry guys, I'm not a good god, so you cannot have a holy weapon dedicated to me, sorry".

LOL.



Have you...have you actually read the 3.5e DMG?

Or is this a specific houserule of yours instead of absolute fact?
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Copper Elven Vampire
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Posted - 15 Sep 2019 :  06:24:09  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven Vampire
As a CN deity, I see no reason a CN cleric couldn't craft a Holy sword in his name. By basic D&D rules, a Holy weapon is for good deities, and an Unholy weapon is for evil ones. Anarchic or Chaotic ones are for deities of chaos and Axiomatic or Lawful ones are for deities of law and justice. So if you're a CN god of a CG pantheon, then I see no reason that a Cleric of that god couldn't forge a Holy weapon in his name. Holy or unholy only means that religion plays a part in the weapon.


By basic D&D 3.5e rules. he can't. It's literally in the requirements; Erevan does not offer the spell needed to create a holy weapon. It's not part of his domain list. It's not part of the spells his clerics can cast.

quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven VampireIf your a god or goddess... a deity... then any weapon you craft can have the Holy or Unholy ability just for the sheer fact that it represents a deity. A CN deity can have a Holy weapon or a Unholy weapon if the Cleric who created it is CN in alignment.

A CN character is neither good nor evil. So if you craft a weapon in the name of your CN deity then you need to decide at the moment of creation whether or not it'll be a Holy or Unholy weapon.


By RAW and RAI? You can't. Because creating a holy or unholy weapon requires access to a spell you don't have unless you're of the appropriate alignment with access to the appropriate domain.

Does Erevan offer access to holy smite or unholy blight? That's your answer, right there.

quote:
Originally posted by Copper Elven VampireI totally get what you're saying LOB, I do. But this is not a Black and white issue. A CN PC of a CN deity can craft a Holy or unholy sword with the Anarchic qualities, but just not the axiomatic or lawful abilities.

Quote Erevan Ilesere; "Sorry guys, I'm not a good god, so you cannot have a holy weapon dedicated to me, sorry".

LOL.



Have you...have you actually read the 3.5e DMG?

Or is this a specific houserule of yours instead of absolute fact?



Yes I've read the 3.5e DMG from front to back with Highlighter marker and Paperclips adorning the entire book.

By standard, black and white D&D 3.5e rules, an Artifact can break all the rules. They are actually supposed to break all the rules damnit.

Erevan is CN... he is neither good nor evil. So CN clerics of Erevan can cast Heal minor wounds and Inflict minor wounds all the same. I mean, that's basic D&D math right there. Who's to say that a Priest of Erevan couldn't cast a "Smite Law" spell with the added benefits of a Holy ability thrown in.

I understand what you're saying LOB... I truly do. But as far as Artifacts are concerned, I have this down to a science, as D&D rules clearly address the issue that Artifacts break all the rules. lol.

A Holy, Anarchic, Vorpal longsword of spell-storing is absolutely viable for Erevan Ilesere within the Artifact rules. Just ask TomCosta, or ErikLboyd. or any other FR designer. It's fairly simple really. Have YOU ever read the 3.5e DMG?
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Wooly Rupert
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Guys, can we take this down a notch before it gets ugly?

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