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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Aug 2019 : 17:30:19
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| I concur: Elaine really captures the feel of the Realms (I read her Pathfinder book as well; not as good as her Realms work). But her contribution to the Realms is undeniable. I consider her FR works "essential FR reading" lol. Evermeet: Island of Elves is the FR elf bible for elf (and drow) history. Her Song and Shadows series (Elfsong, Elfshadow) is also great, and her Starlight and Shadows series is a great look at non-Lolthite drow. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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BenN
Senior Scribe
Japan
382 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2019 : 01:07:35
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Personally. I really liked his Return of the Archwizards series.
Yeah, me too. I'm also a big fan of Richard Baker's The Last Mythal trilogy, some of the Moonshaes books, some of RAS' Drizzt stories, and the War of the Spider Queen series (apart from the end).
Overall, I'd say that my favourite Realms authors are Richard Baker, Erin M. Evans, Erik Scott de Bie and Elaine Cunningham. I'd be so happy to see new FR novels by them. |
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12swords
Acolyte
19 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2019 : 23:51:27
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| Yeah, that's the thing though, apparently only RAS's Drizzt novels sell well enough for WOTC/Hasbro to keep hiring him to write books. Maybe the other authors, no matter how good they were, weren't making the company enough money to justify the expenditure? Pathfinder stopped their novel line as well back in 2016. Are most of the shared world novels currently being produced for video games, not TTRPG's? |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2019 : 00:27:32
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James Lowder explained at one point that WotC made a decision to push Drizzt harder than the other novels. I think this was in part due to their initial success, the irony of course being that once they were marketed, they gained further exposure. Imho, WotC bit itself in the tail by *not* pushing the other series (or at least some of them), like they did Drizzt. Drizzt is great, but there are better FR novels (granted this of course is just my opinion). Bob, cool though he is, has this 'I do what I want' attitude with the novels, to the point where he will disregard lore (fine to do at your gaming table, but not so much if you're publishing in the setting).
I love Drizzt, but there are novels that better represent the Realms. Unfortunately, because of solely pushing Drizzt, there is this Drizzt=Realms mentality. And, with the exception of Drizzt, the novel line suffered because they didn't expose the other novels to the same degree. Of course this isn't the sole reason, and I am sure there are layers and inter politics at work, as well. But I feel like other series would have been more successful if they had been given the same dedication. There are excellent FR novels out there. Drizzt was my first foray into the Realms, and I do love the character, but he is only one small part of the Realms (in some ways, I feel he is rather removed from the Realms). I just feel like WotC missed out on an opportunity.
I had decided to try Pathfinder Tales, since I wasn't getting much from the Realms anymore, at least in the way of novels, and then the PF novel line went on hiatus too. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2019 : 00:29:16
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quote:
Originally posted by BenN
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Personally. I really liked his Return of the Archwizards series.
Yeah, me too. I'm also a big fan of Richard Baker's The Last Mythal trilogy, some of the Moonshaes books, some of RAS' Drizzt stories, and the War of the Spider Queen series (apart from the end).
Overall, I'd say that my favourite Realms authors are Richard Baker, Erin M. Evans, Erik Scott de Bie and Elaine Cunningham. I'd be so happy to see new FR novels by them.
Me too. I would love to see the Shadowbane novels continue. I miss Elaine's voice in the Realms. And Evans is fantastic. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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12swords
Acolyte
19 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2019 : 02:02:42
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Hmm, never knew that RAS's novels were singled out for special marketing at WOTC. But like you said, it was done because he was selling more than the others, but I get ur point, that it didn't leave much support for the other good writers in the stable. And even some of Bob's crappier novels, which imo are maybe half the ones since 2000, kept selling well because of the marketing push and fanbase, not because they were the best.
Doesn't selling 10,000 books in a week qualify for a NY Times best seller? Could we get 10K copies sold if Paul Kemp, Elaine or Erin wrote another FR novel? |
Edited by - 12swords on 03 Aug 2019 05:35:49 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2019 : 02:19:34
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I think Drizzt was selling well within the fanbase (D&D crowd), so WotC made the decision to push thr books, to grab the attention of the non-D&D crowd. I would argue that had they done the same with other novels that were popular in the setting, they would have seen a better turnout. I think Brimstone Angels did reach Ny Bestseller status (though don't quote me on that).
I see a lot of fanbois on FR facebook groups who idolize Drizzt and think Bob can't write a bad novel. He could write anything and they would eat it up, which also means they continually demand more. I really like the character, but I get annoyed when the FR fandom has mostly turned into a Drizzt fandom. It's nothing against Drizzt himself though. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 03 Aug 2019 02:49:36 |
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gylippus
Seeker
67 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2019 : 13:43:29
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The other day I picked up the Veiled Dragon and was going to read it. Later that day a package arrived with a copy of Dragonwall. I have heard terrible things about both books, and they are both written by Troy Denning. I therefore had this problem, should I read Veiled Dragon or Dragonwall? They are the literary equivalent of an enema and a root canal, so it was a tough choice. In the end, I went with Dragonwall to get the pain over as fast as possible. So here is my review.
Dragonwall by Troy Denning
Let's talk about major problems first. The first problem is the conception of this book. Horselords was a fantastic book because it developed a relationship between Koja and Yamun Khan. You learn to love the characters and root for them. You WANT Yamun to win even though he may be a bloodthirsty warlord. The second book completely ignores those characters and decides to talk about the invasion of Shou Lung from the Shou's perspective. That is the first major problem. We don't care about the Shou and we don't want them to win.
As the story progresses we care even less about the Shou. Troy Denning does a good job making us care about Batu Ho Min, and making us hate the Shou bureaucracy. The Shou are incompetent, corrupt, xenophobic, and decadent. By the end of the book we want nothing more than to see Yamun ride into Tai Tung and behead the stupid emperor.
Let's talk about the plot. The entire book tries to convince us of two important things. 1st that Yamun attacked the Shou because they tried to assassinate him. 2nd that Ju-Hai and Kwan did this without the emperor's permission.
I thought Horselords made it pretty clear that Yamun was trying to take over the world. Yamun attacked Kazari for no reason besides loot, money, and glory. Yes, the Shou tried to assassinate him, BUT he would have attacked the Shou anyway. Yamun said he wanted revenge but that was a convenient excuse to start a war. Once Yamun started the war with the Shou he would NEVER have simply asked for the heads of the two traitors as compensation and left. That is STUPID. He is in the middle of a country with over 100k troops in a moderately favorable position. Why would he leave all of this to go west?
Plus, it is hard to believe that Ju-Hai and Kwan wouldn't confer with the emperor about the Tuigan problem and come up with a strategy. So the emperor not 'knowing' about the assassination attempt is ridiculous.
Those are major problems. Now we can look at even more minor problems. It is stated that the Tuigan will be trapped by the river after Batu takes Yenching. Yet, later a Tuigan shaman makes a bridge over the walls of Shou Kuan. If the shaman can do this why can't he make a bridge over the river? In the first book, there are several hundred Tuigan shamans and mages. At one point the Khadun says they disintegrated rocks to make a path through the battlefield. Why can't they disintegrate the walls of Shou Kuan? In fact, where are all of these shamans and wizards? They don't seem to do anything useful most of the time. A mage in the first book tried to kill Yamun with a fireball wand. Why don't they use those in battle?
What about the Shou wizards? In the first book Ju-Hai can speak to the Khadun over vast distances with the help of a wizard. Why not send a wizard with Batu so he can report back?
Why didn't Batu ask to speak to the emperor alone, before he left, and whisper into his ear what he was planning? Surely the emperor would be smart enough to tell no one and Batu couldn't be painted as a traitor.
Let's turn to Yamun and Koja when they finally do show up. As far as I am concerned they are not the same characters as the first book, period. Also, Chanar is painted to be a fool and a terrible commander compared to Batu. Wait a minute, in the first book Yamun says Chanar always had good plans. Chanar may be a traitor but he is a GOOD general. That is stated and or implied over and over again in Horselords. Suddenly, in the second book he is this pathetic cipher that can't lead ten men into combat. Why even have Chanar in this book at all?
I really can't knock Mr. Denning's writing at least. He can write better than RAS and some other authors but I wonder about his thought processes. This is the fifth book I have read by him and I can't say that any have been great. The best is the Parched Sea, but that was middle of the road. Now I just need to get through Crusade and move on with my life. |
Edited by - gylippus on 03 Aug 2019 13:47:06 |
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12swords
Acolyte
19 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2019 : 18:17:37
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I'm going to have to check out some of those FR Facebook groups, see what the lowest common denominator is there. To be fair, I thought RAS was the bomb when I was a teen, as you get older you start to realize that there's better fiction out there.
Maybe the problem is that the other writers never had an iconic character like Drizzt to write about. I think part of the reason RAS wrote so many FR novels is because he didn't want any other novelist writing Drizzt stories. Drizzt is so popular I think WOTC changed some rules of the game for him; I don't remember rangers getting two weapon fighting in the older versions of the game.
Sorry to hear the Horselords books weren't your cup of tea, gylippus. This is what I mean by lack of imagination/linear plotting. You've got magic able to help in some situations but then being forgotten about in other situations where it would be of great use. There's an internal inconsistency with how magic is applied that will show up as great big plot holes to a discerning reader.
Then again, supposedly the LotR books should have started and ended with "Fly giant eagle to Mt. Doom, drop ring in Crack of Doom, the end." |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2019 : 19:55:49
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quote:
Originally posted by 12swords
I'm going to have to check out some of those FR Facebook groups, see what the lowest common denominator is there. To be fair, I thought RAS was the bomb when I was a teen, as you get older you start to realize that there's better fiction out there.
Maybe the problem is that the other writers never had an iconic character like Drizzt to write about. I think part of the reason RAS wrote so many FR novels is because he didn't want any other novelist writing Drizzt stories. Drizzt is so popular I think WOTC changed some rules of the game for him; I don't remember rangers getting two weapon fighting in the older versions of the game.
I was really into Drizzt when I started reading him in 2005, too. But as I branched out, I realized other authors showcased the Realms a lot better. And yes, it would be weird if another author wrote about Drizzt. And he is an iconic character. I just don't like that RAS' books have come to overshadow all the other FR books. It's nothing against Drizzt the character himself, who I still like in and of himself.
I have been reading in the fantasy genre since I was 9, and came into the Realms when I was 15. I have read about many great characters, and yes, Drizzt is one of them, but I think he sometimes overshadows equally great FR characters that just haven't been given the spotlight. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 03 Aug 2019 19:59:39 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2019 : 04:16:41
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quote:
Originally posted by 12swords
Maybe the problem is that the other writers never had an iconic character like Drizzt to write about.
I would say plenty of authors had iconic characters. Farideh is rather popular, as are the Cales, father and son. We've got Alias, Eliath Craulnober, Liriel, Alusair, at least a couple of Red Wizards whose names escape me... And there are a lot more that could have been iconic, given the chance.
Heck, two of the Realms characters I find the most interesting have never been in a novel. One was from a Dragon magazine article, and the other was pretty much a throwaway reference in the intro of a sourcebook.
The problem with WotC has long been their attitude of "oh, this one thing is popular? Well, let's put all of our focus onto that, and the hell with anything else!" They've had so many characters and so much potential that was simply squandered because they weren't willing to take a chance.
And honestly, it's not a bad plan, when running a business, to go with what's known to work, and not take a chance on something not working. But it runs the risk of that one thing becoming less of a draw, and leaving the business with nothing else to market. And especially with game settings, you want to avoid that -- you push game settings by giving people stuff they've not seen, not giving them the same thing repeatedly. WotC -- perhaps due to Hasbro's influence, perhaps due to management that simply doesn't get it -- doesn't seem to realize the Realms is a game setting, and needs to be developed to continue to be popular. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2019 : 05:38:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by 12swords
Maybe the problem is that the other writers never had an iconic character like Drizzt to write about.
I would say plenty of authors had iconic characters. Farideh is rather popular, as are the Cales, father and son. We've got Alias, Eliath Craulnober, Liriel, Alusair, at least a couple of Red Wizards whose names escape me... And there are a lot more that could have been iconic, given the chance.
Heck, two of the Realms characters I find the most interesting have never been in a novel. One was from a Dragon magazine article, and the other was pretty much a throwaway reference in the intro of a sourcebook.
The problem with WotC has long been their attitude of "oh, this one thing is popular? Well, let's put all of our focus onto that, and the hell with anything else!" They've had so many characters and so much potential that was simply squandered because they weren't willing to take a chance.
This. They saw initial success with Drizzt, so they pushed him, but when the other series (and characters) had the same success, they didn't do the same thing. I think the novel line would still be around if they had given other characters more attention. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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12swords
Acolyte
19 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2019 : 17:45:09
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Well, probably the other novels didn't have the SAME success as Drizzt books, which is why WOTC started focusing on Drizzt in the first place.
Hasbro is a toy and game company, not a novel publishing company, so I get why they shutdown the novel line and offloaded it to Harper Voyager. They have just enough editors and graphic designers and printing capability to make the RPG books, but even those are restricted to only several a year, not the 'every month 1 or 2 splatbooks come out' type of schedule.
I think there's just too much competition for people's entertainment time and money. Video games (pc and console) are king now, streaming services offer more tv choices than ever before, self-publishing is a thing (ebooks makes the initial investment trivial), there's even some pretty good web fiction out there. LARP and cosplay are things now.
You see it with declining comic sales too. I think a few years ago it was the first time no major title sold 100k units in a month. Despite the popularity of the movies, fewer and fewer people are actually buying comic books now.
If Elaine/Erin/Paul wrote a new FR novel, there'd be a few thousand diehards snapping it up its first month out, but what if Harper needs 15k sales in the first year to break even and doesn't get it? What if at best it ekes out a profit of less than 10k? 10k is a lot of money to most people but if Hasbro is making 10M on 5th edition gamebooks then it's one tenth of one percent of the real money maker. Like Wooley said pretty much every (successful) company focuses on the one thing that makes money. But with Drizzt books maybe they make 50-100k or more, maybe mid 6 figures, who knows.
Harper should commission an anthology of all the most popular FR characters (Alias, Erevis, Liriel, Elminster etc) and issue an anthology with a new Drizzt story too. Then if there seems to be good interest in the other characters they can commission full novels. |
Edited by - 12swords on 04 Aug 2019 17:57:47 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2019 : 18:06:27
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| Harper should just take over the FR publishing aspect lol. There are a lot of fans who are unhappy with the ending of the novel line. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2019 : 18:16:47
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quote:
Originally posted by 12swords
Well, probably the other novels didn't have the SAME success as Drizzt books, which is why WOTC started focusing on Drizzt in the first place.
But that's the problem: They looked at the success of one thing, and decided that there would be nothing new because that one thing had set such a high bar. So they disregarded anything else that could have become popular, in favor of one thing that was. They forgot one basic truth: At one point, there were NO popular characters in the Realms. EVERY popular FR character, regardless of how long they've been around, was once a new face in a novel by an author we didn't know.
WotC basically tied everything to just one character, and then, when that one character wasn't enough to carry the novels, they dropped them. Rather than try to market to a larger portion of their audience, they focused on a smaller segment, and then dropped novels altogether because that smaller segment didn't bring in the money that the larger segment would have.
We don't have a line of novels now, and WotC is therefore making less money, because they decided that a very narrow focus was the way to go. They put themselves out of the novels business by making bad decisions. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2019 : 18:40:50
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| ^Exactly. And other novels within the setting that had the same initial success that Drizzt did didn't get the same push because "Drizzt is specialz" (again, nothing against the character himself). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 04 Aug 2019 18:41:46 |
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12swords
Acolyte
19 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2019 : 20:03:22
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I think it's more like a business getting rid of under-performing stores. For example you have one restaurant in the city that does really well (Drizzt), makes a lot of money. Then you have 4-5 locations in the suburbs that aren't doing as well, with minimal profit after all the expenses. It wouldn't be surprising that the company gets out of the suburb locations and concentrates on just the main location.
I get it, you think with more marketing and promotion the other novels can be profitable. I'm not so sure that's true, even with RAS, it's not like I see Drizzt commercials on national TV. Marketing dollars in general for novels is fairly minimal, after all it's a diminishing market. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2019 : 20:49:33
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Except the other stores weren't in the suburbs. They were in the same urban location (D&D). We're not saying marketing was the only issue (WotC has made some...different desicions over the years). I just think if they had focused more attention on pushing the novel line as a whole, rather than giving an individual series all the attention, things would be different.
Again, not saying this is the sole factor. There were doubtless fsctors that had little or nothing to do with Drizzt. But I have said my piece. I will stop harping (for now ;) ) |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2019 : 21:47:28
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Here was my major beef with Dragonwall when I read it:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15398
Basically I thought the plot made no sense in a lot of ways, and I really, really enjoyed Horselords. I found Crusades "okay" mostly because it had familar characters and brought back the missing princess hook plot from the early gold box games and old grey box.
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gylippus
Seeker
67 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2019 : 00:04:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
Here was my major beef with Dragonwall when I read it:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15398
Basically I thought the plot made no sense in a lot of ways, and I really, really enjoyed Horselords. I found Crusades "okay" mostly because it had familar characters and brought back the missing princess hook plot from the early gold box games and old grey box.
That was a good thread, I read your post and all of the replies. Honestly, your complaints are entirely valid and I didn't even think of them. I was too busy looking at Yamun's motivations to think about Minister Ting's. Although in the back of my head I was thinking, "Why is she betraying the emperor and what does she get out of it?" As you point out, that is never properly answered and makes no sense.
My major point was the idea that Yamun wanted revenge. Yes, he did, but his greatest motivation is power. So it also makes no sense that he would just up and leave Shou Lung after he gets the traitors.
Plus, minister Chu and Kwan didn't look like traitors to me. They didn't tell the emperor what they were doing BUT they wanted to get rid of a possible threat before it was too powerful. The Khadun already told them that Yamun was more than happy to conquer everything so his next logical target after Khazari was Shou Lung. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out that a divided Tuigan nation is much better for the Shou's security and the Silk Road business than a unified Tuigan. Plus, it was obvious from the text that Chu was a loyal minister and just looking out for the best interest of the kingdom. |
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12swords
Acolyte
19 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2019 : 04:59:29
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Except the other stores weren't in the suburbs. They were in the same urban location (D&D). We're not saying marketing was the only issue (WotC has made some...different desicions over the years). I just think if they had focused more attention on pushing the novel line as a whole, rather than giving an individual series all the attention, things would be different.
Again, not saying this is the sole factor. There were doubtless fsctors that had little or nothing to do with Drizzt. But I have said my piece. I will stop harping (for now ;) )
Well, I was more trying to imply that Drizzt, not D&D, was the profit center of the novel line and that's why the company focused on it. And the other characters/books (other locations) were fine in their own way and some had really devout fans but ultimately the sales weren't enough to justify continuing in those locations.
Fiction sales for the past 5 years has been in decline. I'm sure even RAS's books haven't been selling as well lately as they were in the 90's and 00's. There aren't as many bookstores as before. People would rather spend their recreational time looking at their phone, reading news and watching videos on FB and YT, than pick up a book and read. All this makes for a very tough sales environment, and throwing money at promotion would increase sales but probably not enough to make up for the increased cost. No company is going to spend a million dollars promoting a novel line only to see it increase revenue by 500k.
This problem with the Empire trilogy, is it because TSR had 3 different writers for each of the books? The inconsistency of them? Maybe that was one of the issues with their novel line, having different writers for sequels, although I think that practice is common with shared world books. |
Edited by - 12swords on 05 Aug 2019 05:02:11 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2019 : 14:52:41
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| I don't think books themselves are necessarily suffering, people are just reading on different formats (like ebooks), which is why brick and mortar stores are in decline. Though it does seem like many people don't enjoy reading as much. I don't think the fiction industry as a whole is going to go down (even if there is a bit of a sales decline). At least, it better not! Lol |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2019 : 15:12:55
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I don't think books themselves are necessarily suffering, people are just reading on different formats (like ebooks), which is why brick and mortar stores are in decline. Though it does seem like many people don't enjoy reading as much. I don't think the fiction industry as a whole is going to go down (even if there is a bit of a sales decline). At least, it better not! Lol
Actually, I was reading not too long ago that ebook sales had plateaued at about 30% of book sales.
I think the decline of brick and mortar stores is more due to Amazon and being poorly-run, like Borders... And from what I've seen, that decline has pretty much stabilized. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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12swords
Acolyte
19 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2019 : 16:27:45
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Fiction novels, books in general, will always be around, but like you said, people are reading in different formats (mobile, ebooks, etc).
I had a Borders near where I lived for many years, it was a haven for the local homeless. I didn't spend much time there but whenever I was there you'd hardly see anyone at the checkout line. I know it's anecdotal, maybe they had a bunch of sales when I wasn't there, but anytime you have a huge store and like 4 sales per hour, that's not a good combination.
Maybe Hasbro should contract a really popular fantasy author to write a DnD novel, someone like Sanderson or even Martin. Pay them a big upfront fee, even give them partial ownership of the characters, and then watch the money pour in. Maybe it would help jumpstart a TV show or movie trilogy, leading to even more $$, which would help make the corporate overlords happy. |
Edited by - 12swords on 05 Aug 2019 16:48:29 |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2019 : 21:41:14
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quote:
This problem with the Empire trilogy, is it because TSR had 3 different writers for each of the books? The inconsistency of them? Maybe that was one of the issues with their novel line, having different writers for sequels, although I think that practice is common with shared world books.
I do think the Empires trilogy suffered from the 3 different authors, for the reasons I put in my thread. Yamun destested spies and really liked honor, but for some reason was all into spies in the 2nd book because it was a different author. He wanted power and conquest...but in the 2nd book he wants revenge only. The 3rd book doesn't focus on the Shou or the Tugian horde as much as it does the Cormyr set making alliances with Sembia and Zhentil Keep, but when it does focus on the characters from the first two books you can't recognize anything set up.
Basically Horselords was a great novel that set up some great characters, and it could have made an epic trilogy if it was written by one author.
On a positive note, I've always throught the events in the Empires novel is a "Realms Shaking Event" done right...something that is epic and major, involves the players of the Realms, leaves a mark and a legacy behind for people to reference for decades later, shows us new areas of the Realms we haven't seen much of before...but then ends and doesn't blow up the moon along the way and we get back to normalcy afterwards. |
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gylippus
Seeker
67 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2019 : 12:28:12
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I am back. Just finished reading King Pinch by David Cook.
King Pinch is the first book in the Nobles series, published in 1995. I stopped reading FR novels by that time and this book and series is entirely new to me. I was also interested to read more David Cook after Horselords.
Actually, I was pleasantly surprised by this book. I enjoyed the characters, the plot, and the writing. This book is a bit of a slower read because David Cook uses a lot of slang terms when Pinch is talking to his gang. It sort of reminds me of thieves in London in the 1800s. Cook does a great job of immersing us in the thieves world and bringing it to life. Plus, this book is set in Ankapur, a new setting to me.
In terms of the plot, it wasn't as predictable as I thought. Cook keeps us guessing. By around page 180 or so you think Pinch is definitely Manerick's son and will be king eventually. After he introduces the cup and dagger plot I thought Pinch would somehow drink out of it at the ceremony and become king. However, Cook throws in the body switch, which I wasn't expecting at all. I would say the ending felt a little rushed. The book could have used an epilogue. It would have been nice to see Pinch a few months later, into his reign, and know what was going on and how his friends were set up.
All in all, this is a solid book. If there was a sequel I would definitely read it.
On a side note, the book is riddled with errors. It has omitted words, misspelled words, and at one point Cook mentions Pinch ripping off his new clothes when Pinch already lost them in a previous scene and had to steal clothes from a laundry. All of this makes me believe this book wasn't edited in the least.
Lastly, this book has no map and no picture of the author. Was this the time TSR was trying to save money and the printing quality suffered? No idea. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2019 : 14:39:19
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| I couldn't finish King Pinch..I was totally disinterested in the setting, characters, plot and writing style. I didn't hate it, but I guess worse than making me mad...it made me bored? And that rarely happens with a Realms novel! I guess I just couldn't find a character to really make my own in the book, and when I didn't like anyone and had no interest in Ankapur (it may as well have been set on Mars given how far removed it is) that was all she wrote. I was looking forward to the long caravan journey that far South, but then they cheated and just teleported to the Lake of Steam. Okay then. Sorry again, Shandril... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2019 : 15:26:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
I couldn't finish King Pinch..I was totally disinterested in the setting, characters, plot and writing style. I didn't hate it, but I guess worse than making me mad...it made me bored? And that rarely happens with a Realms novel! I guess I just couldn't find a character to really make my own in the book, and when I didn't like anyone and had no interest in Ankapur (it may as well have been set on Mars given how far removed it is) that was all she wrote. I was looking forward to the long caravan journey that far South, but then they cheated and just teleported to the Lake of Steam. Okay then. Sorry again, Shandril...
I wasn't a huge fan of that one, myself. In particular, I recall being bothered by a gang of four people being called a thieves' guild.
War in Tethyr was one I wasn't able to finish. |
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gylippus
Seeker
67 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2019 : 19:09:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
I couldn't finish King Pinch..I was totally disinterested in the setting, characters, plot and writing style. I didn't hate it, but I guess worse than making me mad...it made me bored? And that rarely happens with a Realms novel! I guess I just couldn't find a character to really make my own in the book, and when I didn't like anyone and had no interest in Ankapur (it may as well have been set on Mars given how far removed it is) that was all she wrote. I was looking forward to the long caravan journey that far South, but then they cheated and just teleported to the Lake of Steam. Okay then. Sorry again, Shandril...
I wasn't a huge fan of that one, myself. In particular, I recall being bothered by a gang of four people being called a thieves' guild.
War in Tethyr was one I wasn't able to finish.
Both of you make some interesting points, as usual. First, I don't recall them ever being referred to as a guild. I can go back and check but I am pretty certain they are just referred to as a gang, and Pinch is the regulator or leader. The book led me to believe that there are many gangs in Elturel. Now, they may all eventually be in a loose thieves guild, but in the end they are working for themselves.
Seravin, you make a good point about the characters not growing on you. Maybe it is the vernacular they use, which makes it more difficult to understand them. Pinch and his gang are definitely middle of the road characters. They don't have amazing awesome powers. They can't kill thousands of the enemy. They aren't chosen of Deneir. At one point Pinch almost gets killed by a couple of thugs. Maybe it would have helped if we saw more personal redemption for Pinch. He doesn't seem to really come around to the idea that his friends are super important until the last 10 pages.
On the other hand, I do stand by my points that this book is well written compared to many other FR novels. It doesn't have major plot holes and all of the characters actions make sense, unlike other books. For those reasons I put it middle of the road to upper middle of the road so far. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2019 : 19:31:46
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I enjoyed the Finder's Stone books, myself.
In regards to length, I don't know if there is a mandated length or not. Some, like Evermeet: Island of Elves and Cormyr: A Novel are thicker, and some of the newer Drizzt novels are in the 400-page range. But most are in the 300-page range. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Just Another Book Thread
