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gylippus
Seeker
67 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Jul 2019 : 13:13:45
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I just finished the last book in the Twilight Giants trilogy by Troy Denning. I started this trilogy over a year ago, but it took me a long time to read because I kept getting distracted and I hated the trilogy so much.
I am not going to go over every single book here, but let me sum up my feelings for this trilogy. I absolutely hated it. So far, these have been the worst FR books I have read. I couldn't stand anything about the trilogy from the setting, to the characters, to the plot. The first book is the best one by far, and then the series slowly degrades. The second book is painful, and the third book is absolutely horrific.
The first book is a basic chase plot. Tavis has to rescue Brianna from an Ogre shaman with the help of Basil, a runecaster, and Avner, his sidekick. I like Tavis as a character. Although he seems to be amazingly dense when it comes to Brianna. My biggest issue is the relationship between him and Brianna. I found Brianna's character to be extremely unlikable. Mr. Denning, are we supposed to like Brianna or hate Brianna? If we are supposed to like her, you gave me no reason to do so. Tavis saves her time and time again and by the third book she completely distrusts him and puts a guard on him. What? This guy has literally ran over the entire kingdom saving your life. He has proven time and time again he is completely loyal. And this is how he is treated? Wow.
At least the first book has a big role for Basil. He is a good character and I like his moral ambiguity about personal property. Unfortunately, his role is cut down in the second and third books. Avner, on the other hand, begins to do things that seem out of character. Tavis is basically his father. He loves Tavis unconditionally. Yet, in the third book Brianna tells Avner to kill Tavis if he tries to kill her son (which he would never do and is completely absurd). Amazingly, Avner agrees! Also, Avner is killed towards the end of the book and barely anyone seems to care. Tavis finds his body and then the chapter just ends and leaps forward in time. The last one hundred pages in the third book felt very disjointed. In fact, everything in that book felt weird. The pacing was uneven. The plot felt forced. The introduction of Sky Cleaver felt like a forced plot point.
The second book was where the series went off a cliff. I despised Arlo and Julien and the rape plot. To me, Forgotten Realms is fantasy light. If I wanted rape in my books I would read adult fantasy. There is plenty of it out there. It is one T.V. and everywhere else. It just doesn't appeal to me. Granted, Mr. Denning skirts the topic and alludes to rape without being graphic, but it just destroyed the series for me. On top of the horrible plot the second book is basically another chase sequence, again. This time I started wondering how Avner could survive these harsh conditions. The other characters are giant and giant kin. Avner should have died from hypothermia halfway through the book.
The third book was just a slog. At that point I was trying to complete the series just to check it off the list. That is never a good recipe for enjoyment. Every page felt like an eternity. The entire first 100 pages are an ambush and child birth story. The rest of the book is a chase sequence, again. Every now and then we get to see what Brianna is doing in the tower Lanaxis is carrying. Ugh. I hated every minute of it.
Not to be that guy, but what are all of these giant tribes eating? These giants are HUGE. They would have to consume a massive amount of food to stay alive, and there are tribes of them running around. For argument's sake, let's suppose a giant eats one deer a day. That is 365 deer a year. Now we have a village of 100 giants. That is 36,500 deer a year. But there aren't just 100 giants, there are thousands of giants and they probably need more than one deer a day.
Another nitpicking point. The maps. The first book has a map that has a different orientation than the third book and the scales and details are vastly different. Yes, I know the first book has a map specific to the story in the first book but it difficult to cross reference the maps.
I have now read four books by Mr. Denning (I am not counting the Dark Sun books I read) and I am starting to wonder if maybe it is just his writing style I don't like. I am going to give him a few more chances, and I sincerely hope I end up loving some of his books, but that hasn't happened so far. In my personal opinion, this series is an avoid at all costs. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2019 : 19:46:28
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I liked The Parched Sea (and grudgingly guilty pleasure enjoy The Veiled Dragon despite its many problems) but otherwise Troy's writing is awful in my opinion.
Some people like his writing, but I'm of mind that everything from Waterdeep (from the avatar series) onwards he wrote is hot garbage, except those two :)
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2019 : 23:09:08
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Some of Denning's stuff I've really liked.
Some of it I've hated.
One of the few books I've ever wanted to throw across the room, once I was done reading it, was a book by Denning.
I read the first book of the Twilight Giants. One of the main things I recall is that it was for some reason a big deal when one character (Tavis?) missed with an arrow, because they were just so good that them missing was noteworthy.
The other thing I recall is that it was a rough read, so much so that even when I was trying to read all the Realms novels, I never bothered completing the trilogy. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2019 : 09:48:35
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quote:
Originally posted by gylippus
Finished reading Tymora's Luck.
I enjoyed the book and I would say overall I thought it was one of the better FR books I have read so far. From my previous post I am sure everyone is aware I am a big KN/JG fan. In terms of their books I would put it on the same par as Finder's Bane, but not as enjoyable as Azure Bonds, Wyvern's Spur, or Masquerades.
I didn't think I would enjoy the book because, yet again, a kender shows up. Personally, I despise kender, however, Emilo is toned down a bit from your normal kender and I ended up liking his character quite a bit. Plus, it was nice to see Fizban pop up, if even for a second.
For some reason, the other characters have never grown on me as much as Alias and Co. but they have their good points. I was hoping to see Joel expand his powers a bit, after all, he was chosen by Finder and basically the head of Finder's church. I know Finder is a weaker god, but I would expect Joel to be decently powerful as a cleric.
A couple of parts in the book had me chuckling, especially any parts that dealt with an inordinate amount of good or bad luck. Those little vignettes in the book were clever. The scene where Volo is in a dice game with a barbarian and rolls doubles every time was hilarious. My one nitpick is that a halfling moneylender shows up and his name is "Havabuck". That seemed a little too 'wink wink' in my opinion and sort of deflated his character a bit. Plus, he ended up paying like a million gold coins or something. The fact that someone has a million gold coins sitting in a vault seemed outrageous. That brought me back to thinking about the economics of the realms.
Of course I liked seeing how the Wyvernspur children turned out. Uncle Steele is an alcoholic, go figure. Amber Wyvernspur turns into a mini wyvern, which was cool, and Uncle Drone saves the day.
One last question. How is it that Holly can sense evil on 'Sirrion' but Lathander can't? If he can fool Lathander, shouldn't he be able to fool Holly?
I'm reading this now, and agree with what you've said but wanted to point out one aspect I thought was actually really neat. Namely:
When Beshaba is comatose and sitting in the Baneson's throne room, I love the idea that even unconscious the bad luck around her is so powerful it kills people in numerous ways (trip and fall, slip on blood, cut neck shaving, choke on apple, etc.) that she deems her enemies. THAT is clever, interesting writing of how a deity would be, even though I generally hate writing the Realms' gods as sort of bumbling idiots instead of divine powers in the novels.
Kate and Jeff are just great writers and I wish they had more novels set in the Realms.
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2019 : 18:23:22
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quote:
Originally posted by gylippus
1. Teldin shows up in a bar and through a series of mysterious circumstances is chased out of the bar and ends up recruiting an aperusa to his ship. Who in their right mind would do this?
He is hunted by half of the forces in the Crystal Spheres, yet he is willing to allow someone on his ship who is most likely a known liar and thief?
Anyone in need of a specialist at not-getting-scragged. For example, someone being hunted by half the forces in the known Spheres.
Besides, why exactly not? Aperusa are known as... ah... the folk playing cards with whom is not the best idea. Well, then don't. But they get around and they know they way around both ports and ships.
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2. Teldin agrees to take Trivit and Chirp to their ship, which turns out to be an illithid ship. That isn't the most serious problem. He ACTUALLY boards the other ship and becomes a captive instantly. Yet again, who would board another ship they know nothing about? Teldin could have easily sent a crewmember to take the dracons to that ship. He had no need to board it himself. That is just stupid. It also calls into question Teldin's mental ability yet again.
It depends. Not the best approach, obviously, but at this point did he look for safe options at all?
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3. Teldin agrees to let Raven Stormwalker stay on his ship. Wait, this is someone who obviously lied to get on the ship and you know nothing about. Why would any competent person allow this? Yes, the book does mention dragon charm but I don't think she was able to 100% charm him. AFTER Teldin finds out she viciously killed Viper and destroyed her Reigar master he seems to have no problem with it, even though they were innocent people.
Was this before or after he found out the Reigar are not exactly harmless?
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Okay, on to the next issue. The Scro. In the previous book the Scro commander, Vorr, is a vicious killer. There is a scene in this book when a Bionoid grabs General Grimnosh by the throat and dangles him around like a toy. I know the Bionoid are bred killers but it would be hard for me to see General Vorr treated in such a way.[...] Long story short, Grimnosh is not nearly as imposing as Vorr and he seems to die pretty easily.
That's kind of the whole point of making super-soldiers, no?
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Next issue. Suddenly everyone has cloaking helms?
Not everyone. It's an EIN toy, so just they, those who managed to take one from them, or from those who did, etc.
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Wasn't cloaking helms a plot from Star Trek. I vaguely remember the Klingon coming up with one, but I am not a Trekkie. For that matter, don't the Scro seem just like Klingons? It makes me wonder of the people who invented Spelljamming were huge Trekkies. There is probably a back story to that.
Uh... "I'm not a Trekkie, but any chest-pounding warrior people including orcs are Klingons and must have been written by Trekkies"? Because Scro are just a more organized branch of orcs. 
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Scro are way more militaristic than Klingons, and honor isn't really a thing for them. All scro know their place in their society, and that place is to serve their society as a whole and bring down their enemies. Pretty much everything else is secondary to them. They don't fight each other and they'll happily use dirty tactics to destroy elves and anyone else that gets in the way.
IIRC, they are mostly about personal prowess as warriors (like with those tooth necklaces, but they trust each other to not fake those), but generally keep their word, etc, except with elves? Whose agreement capability vs. non-elves (much less goblinoids) is dubious at best, so as far as the Scro can tell, there's simply no point? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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gylippus
Seeker
67 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2019 : 19:44:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
...in the Baneson's throne room, I love the idea that even unconscious the bad luck around her is so powerful it kills people in numerous ways (trip and fall, slip on blood, cut neck shaving, choke on apple, etc.) that she deems her enemies. THAT is clever, interesting writing of how a deity would be, even though I generally hate writing the Realms' gods as sort of bumbling idiots instead of divine powers in the novels.
I also thought that part was extremely funny. Choking on an apple...what horrible luck.
I agree with you about books with gods in them. Not really my cup of tea but I still enjoyed Tymora's Luck and Finder's Bane.
On to the next book. I apologize for jumping all over the place, but I am somewhat at the mercy of the books I have on my shelf and what I feel like buying on Ebay. I just finished Horselords by David Cook and I was blown away. It is the first book I have read in FR since Wyvern's Spur that I absolutely loved.
Honestly, I avoided this series back in the 90's because I thought it was a cheap knock off of Mongolian and Chinese culture. The book obviously borrows heavily from Mongolian culture but it is so well written and the character development so good that I really didn't care. If you took out the magical elements in the book and changed some names and times it could probably be a really good historical fiction novel, which is a complement.
I found David Cook's writing really good. He slowly develops the relationship between Koja and Yamun and he leaves a lot open to interpretation. For instance, some may say Yamun is evil. Did he kill his step brother? Is he an evil tyrant? Or is he no worse or better than just about any other ruler in the realms? Koja is obviously good, but you have the moral ambiguity of him befriending Yamun and helping him conquer other people.
David Cook also spends a lot of time developing the 'villains' in the book. We have a good understanding of why the Khadun hates Yamun. In some ways she is in the right. We also see why Chanar feels slighted and eventually betrays Yamun. You actually feel for Chanar in some scenes. He helps Yamun his entire life, shelters him, conquers for him, but never feels entirely appreciated.
I liked the way David Cook handled magic in the book. You never get the idea he is consulting a TSR magic manual while he is writing. He subtly works in magic and makes it a seamless part of the story.
I read some other reviews and people mentioned it lacked in action or felt more like a game supplement in novel form. Whether you like the book or not depends on personal preference. I prefer books with less action and more plot and character development, so it works great for me.
If I had to compare this book to the Maztica book I just read I would say this book is far superior. They both borrow heavily from RL history, but I think Cook handles it in a much better way.
After I finished I immediately went to Ebay to buy the sequel and let out a scream of fear and dread. The sequel is written by Troy Denning. Nooooooooo! And the third book is written by James Lowder, the same author as Ring of Winter, which I didn't enjoy. I hate it when TSR has multiple authors of the same series. I don't think it ever works out well in terms of character continuity. I sincerely hope these two books are as good as the first but I have my doubts. Can anyone tell me why TSR did this? Is it strictly for monetary reasons, in order to publish books faster?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2019 : 22:57:43
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quote:
Originally posted by gylippus
After I finished I immediately went to Ebay to buy the sequel and let out a scream of fear and dread. The sequel is written by Troy Denning. Nooooooooo! And the third book is written by James Lowder, the same author as Ring of Winter, which I didn't enjoy. I hate it when TSR has multiple authors of the same series. I don't think it ever works out well in terms of character continuity. I sincerely hope these two books are as good as the first but I have my doubts. Can anyone tell me why TSR did this? Is it strictly for monetary reasons, in order to publish books faster?
I couldn't tell you why they did the thing of using different authors.
But... I've commented before about how some Troy Denning books I've quite enjoyed, while others I've disliked immensely (to the point of wanting to chuck one book across the room in rage). Dragonwall is one of the ones I enjoyed.
I also really liked Crusade. I'm fairly confident that even if you disliked Ring of Winter that you'll still like Crusade. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2019 : 08:17:10
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I absolutely HATED Dragonwall, and loved Horselords for the same reason.
Let's just say that to me, Troy Denning took the characters that were established in Horselords, particularly Yamun Khan, and wrote whatever the hell he wanted about the character. The book makes no sense, and is a plot hole filled MESS.
This is one of the few times I've ever disagreed with Wooly on a book though (I generally love what he loves!) so take it with a grain of salt. Troy's writing outside of his Ruha books all suck to me. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2019 : 15:32:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
Let's just say that to me, Troy Denning took the characters that were established in Horselords, particularly Yamun Khan, and wrote whatever the hell he wanted about the character. The book makes no sense, and is a plot hole filled MESS.
Denning does have a tendency (at least in the Realms; I've not read any of his non-FR stuff) to take established characters and make them act in ways no other author does. It's part of why I dismiss the entire Return of the Archwizards trilogy: the only white hats that did anything intelligent were Denning's own characters, while long-established white hats generally blundered about, ignored sound advice from informed sources, acted in uncharacteristically unintelligent manners, and generally just acted as an additional impediment to Denning's characters.
That said, while it's been a long time since I read Dragonwall, I don't recall him doing much with the characters from the prior book. The focus was very much on Batu Min Ho, his wife, and a few figures in the Shou hierarchy.
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
This is one of the few times I've ever disagreed with Wooly on a book though (I generally love what he loves!) so take it with a grain of salt. Troy's writing outside of his Ruha books all suck to me.
I liked his Ruha books, but I really wish he'd stop going back to that particular well. He reuses those characters so much it's almost a surprise they didn't somehow pop up in this one! |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
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gylippus
Seeker
67 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2019 : 13:09:04
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I just finished reading 1 - 4 of the Cleric Quintet, by RAS.
To be honest, I don't know what all the hoopla is about RAS. Personally, I find his writing to be somewhat amateurish. It isn't horrible, like some FR books, but it doesn't blow me away like other books. In general, I find his character development to be very thin and his plots basic.
My first issue with all of these books is that the overarching plot doesn't make much sense. Yes, I know Aballister wants to take over the region using Castle Trinity's forces. But why doesn't he attack one target with everything at his disposal? Any competent commander would say to hit the enemy with everything you have. RAS goes into some detail about why Barjin is sent to the library by himself and acts by himself. It all seems very contrived in order to give Cadderly a fighting chance.
Even so, the first book has some quirkiness about it that makes it interesting, such as Cadderly's inventions and the Bouldershoulder brothers. On the other hand, it seems that RAS really loves to write about overpowered characters. Cadderly is a wunderkind and Danica is already the most powerful monk in almost all of Faerun, and they are in their twenties.
I found the second book to be really annoying. This is when RAS starts to write really long fight sequences, some lasting over twenty pages. The entire book is basically a fight sequence and the fighting is injected with campy humor and stupidity. The Bouldershoulders and Danica cut down scores of enemies almost never suffering wounds while Cadderly broods and whines about killing in general. All of the elves are cardboard cutouts with no personality. Yet again, castle Trinity splits its forces, for no apparent reason other than to prolong the book series.
The third book was a bit of a bounce back. Caradoon was a better setting than Shilmista, but I felt like Ghost and the Night Masks had more than enough opportunities to kill Cadderly and they didn't simply to make the book longer.
The fourth book felt like mostly filler. The last 100 pages are a fight sequence again. I find RAS fight sequences to be extremely repetitive. Parts of the book felt like the movie trilogy the Hobbit. If you have watched them you will remember Legolas doing crazy things like jumping on boulders falling through midair and hitting every single target in the eye without fail. RAS is the written equivalent of those movies. It is over the top to the point of absurdity. Ivan manages to ride a Chimera through the air. The Bouldershoulders continue to fall on one another a lot and make weird sounds. In the castle they must kill at least 100 enemies. Vander and Shayleigh are inserted into the group simply to kill more enemies. We never get to know them any better or really care if they live or die. But of course they won't die because RAS won't kill a main character, ever...
It was during the fourth book that I noticed RAS uses a lot of parentheses and exclamation points. Seriously, go back and read the book and look for those writing conventions. Once you notice them they are all over the place. He also starts to use the phrase 'love' or 'her love' a lot when Danica refers to Cadderly.
I feel like this entire series could have been a trilogy. Cut out the filler, edit the plot, cut down the battle scenes, and you might have a decent trilogy. |
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Captain Grafalcon
Learned Scribe
Brazil
129 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2019 : 16:03:08
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I respect your opinion, but to understand an overall picture of an author's work, we need to know many factors. I may be mistaken, but I think this work was at the beginning of his career. We can see several errors in the early works of great authors, even Dostoievsky. I don't know how contracts for novels work, but maybe he got paid for 5 books. I realize that debates involving the work of RAS are common, but it's the price we pay for having such a long series,and tolerance for it varies from person to person (I'm absolutely ok with that). Opinions involving action narratives also are variable, but RAS is known for developing good combat narratives even for readers not interested in fantasy. |
"Surely you recognize that armies carrying banners are almost always thieves—until they win."
Jarlaxle, mercenary leader of Bregan D'aerthe. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2019 : 17:19:04
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Clerical Quintet - I hear you. I actually like Canticle because it is a low level Cadderly and you almost understand Barjin's complete arrogance in saying he can take the whole library by himself (and I think if he had just stormed the library he may have done that with his mummy, the priests who run it seem incompetent compared to the dwarf cooks and Danica the miracle monk). Also - evil does turn on itself and not trust itself, so I can kind of see how Castle Trinity was doomed and not a cohesive force. That is a common trope of evil being too treacherous to work together and they do say the factions hate each other.
Cadderly's "hero" journey is a bit abrupt - he goes from quite inexperienced and weak in book 1 and 2 where he interestingly relies on his smarts and inventions to get by (his whiny no kill attitude is ridiculous given the world he lives in and the war surrounding him) - to a CHOSEN OF DENIER OMNIPOTENT BEING in book 3 able to basically take out an entire army/castle with a thought by book 4. I absolutely hated book 5.
For book 4, Fallen Fortress...I kind of like the rip roaring adventure aspect and Cadderly mind-effing the ridiculously stupid "Head Master" who shouldn't be given any spells by any god because he's inept and pretty much evil. I don't understand why Deneir would allow the library to be like it is given how involved he is with Cadderly and Penelope - like...I don't get deities in the FR. Sometimes they are so involved and talk to mortals and look out for random people who call to them and directly intervene--- and in other novels they are enigmatic forces that don't intervene or do anything even when HORRIBLE terrible things happen to their chosen and major centres of worship. Even when rival evil deities are attacking in force (why I hated Evermeet the novel.)
I digress, Book 2 and 5 were the weakest for me, I usually skip when I re-read this series. You're not wrong in that Danica is a Mary Sue character with no faults or flaws other than being into her studies and dedicated and she can magically overcome through sheer will power the chaos curse at age 20 but extremely high level experienced priests that run the church/library cannot. It shows that Bob absolutely loves Monks and wanted to write a monk trilogy but couldn't and had to do a priest one about Cadderly who doesn't cast any priest magic in the first book at all, and is basically just a tinker until he becomes a chosen who can do anything.
My fave RAS books are Servant of the Shard and Crystal Shard, for very different reasons.
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Edited by - Seravin on 29 Jul 2019 17:20:38 |
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12swords
Acolyte
19 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2019 : 18:12:00
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I've only read the first couple chapters of Cleric Quintet although the characters appeared in some of the Drizzt novels so I've heard of them before. I've heard some people say it's some of RAS's better books so it is on my to-read list. Way down the list, to be sure, so who knows when or even if I'll ever get to it, but it's there.
Is this the common weakness to most shared-world books, that there's a distinct lack of intricate plotting? Seravin thinks the 5-book CQ series could have been done in 3 books. It does seem to me that most FR novels, Bob's included, suffer from simplistic plots. It's always some variation of: "Get the McGuffin" or "Fight and Kill these guys" or "Travel to this location", without much world-building or character development in between. Like the games that they're based on, the novels have very linear plotting and obstacles, and few even seem very imaginative or inventive.
But this could also probably be a function of the deadline these writers are under. Aren't most of these novels written in 3 months or less? I know Bob back in 2014-16 would put out a new Drizzt book every 6 months. If you count his other novels, he's probably averaging almost 2 books a year.
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gylippus
Seeker
67 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2019 : 20:04:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Captain Grafalcon
I respect your opinion, but to understand an overall picture of an author's work, we need to know many factors. I may be mistaken, but I think this work was at the beginning of his career. We can see several errors in the early works of great authors, even Dostoievsky. I don't know how contracts for novels work, but maybe he got paid for 5 books.
I agree with your overall point. Authors will get better over time, there is no doubt about that. And yes, this was at the beginning of his career so I am willing to read more of his work and see where it goes. On the other hand, some authors write good books right out of the gate. There are plenty of examples of fantasy trilogies written by first time authors that are clever, inventive, and well written.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2019 : 02:37:59
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quote:
Originally posted by 12swords
I've only read the first couple chapters of Cleric Quintet although the characters appeared in some of the Drizzt novels so I've heard of them before. I've heard some people say it's some of RAS's better books so it is on my to-read list. Way down the list, to be sure, so who knows when or even if I'll ever get to it, but it's there.
Is this the common weakness to most shared-world books, that there's a distinct lack of intricate plotting? Seravin thinks the 5-book CQ series could have been done in 3 books. It does seem to me that most FR novels, Bob's included, suffer from simplistic plots. It's always some variation of: "Get the McGuffin" or "Fight and Kill these guys" or "Travel to this location", without much world-building or character development in between. Like the games that they're based on, the novels have very linear plotting and obstacles, and few even seem very imaginative or inventive.
But this could also probably be a function of the deadline these writers are under. Aren't most of these novels written in 3 months or less? I know Bob back in 2014-16 would put out a new Drizzt book every 6 months. If you count his other novels, he's probably averaging almost 2 books a year.
I think game setting novels can suffer from this, though some more than others. I think a lot of the "classic" FR novels have a bit more of a linear plot than the later ones. Of course, this doesn't mean they were all bad. There were some great "linear" stories. Some FR books have excellent world-building, even if the plot is "get X". Imho, Salvatore isn't always the best for showcasing the Realms or providing lore information. The Realms became more fleshed out for me once I branched out from Drizzt. Love Drizzt though I do, he is one part of a bigger, richer story. I get the gist of what you are saying though, and the Drizzt books aren't alone in those plots. That said, the CQ took me longer to get through. I felt it lagged in many places. Not his best.
Some of the later FR books don't suffer from this as much, but I think it is, one, deadlines, like you said, and conforming to the story WotC wants them to tell. Novels like FR have to showcase events going on in the world (though granted, some are more self-contained stories that don't really have an impact, and in turn aren't impacted). This isn't necessarily a bad thing, as it can still allow for rich stories, and I personally read far more than I play, so I expect to see the story told through the novels.
And it does vary from novel to novel (or at least series to series). Some are more complicated and fleshed out than others, regardless of plot. For instance, it has been a while since I read an FR novel (though I am always reading something, usually in the fantasy genre), and I decided to finally read the Nethril trilogy, one of said "classics" I hadn't read yet for some reason. I think because I already knew about Karsus, and I thought the trilogy was about him. I thought maybe he started out as a Cyric figure (likeable at first, then goes insane). Based on what I knew of Nethril and Karsus, I expected it to be this amazing, epic story. Nope. At least, not to me. Mediocre characters and storytelling (particularly the first one). The villains were very foolish and easily tricked, and the protagonist was subpar. Karsus was only a secondary character, and he was only in the second book.
Elaine Cunningham, on the other hand, wrote amazing FR stories. Yes, some issues arose, but I loved the lore and characters. She really fleshed out the stories. They didn't feel simple to me.
So...I guess it depends lol. Game setting novels may suffer from this more than other fantasy novels, for reasons already given, but sometimes it works. Other times, you notice it heh. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 30 Jul 2019 04:18:18 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2019 : 02:42:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
I liked The Parched Sea (and grudgingly guilty pleasure enjoy The Veiled Dragon despite its many problems) but otherwise Troy's writing is awful in my opinion.
Some people like his writing, but I'm of mind that everything from Waterdeep (from the avatar series) onwards he wrote is hot garbage, except those two :)
Personally. I really liked his Return of the Archwizards series.
Wow, I have been a way for a while. I am not going to read through this entire thread, but I did want to comment on a few things (thus the multiple posts). I have been keeping up on FR, just haven't visited these halls lately. I am more active elsewhere.
But anyway, I greatly enjoyed RotA. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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12swords
Acolyte
19 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2019 : 16:22:08
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I think the only things I've read from Troy Denning was the Avatar series way back when. They weren't great but I don't remember them being awful. Has he gotten a lot worse since then? It seems he's done a lot of Star Wars novels, so someone must think he's a good writer.
Thanks for the response CD. Maybe another of the problems with the quality of the novels is that many of them seem to have been written by people who started off working for TSR/WOTC as game designers? It's like: "Hey, you have an English degree, and know the gameworld, and possess good grammar and spelling, here why don't you write this novel?" So you're taking people who aren't really novelists and making them write books for you, and if the book turns out even halfway decent that's usually as much as you can hope for. And most of them end up being written like modules or adventures; go here, talk to this guy, kill this person, get this thing, etc etc.
Of course there are always exceptions. Erin Evans worked for WOTC and people seem to really like her novels. Dave Gross was also an editor for Dragon magazine and I liked his novels for Pathfinder.
Also, I was under the impression that WOTC mostly gave a free hand as far as the actual writing? True, the overall subject may be pre-determined, but character and plot details are left up to the author?
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2019 : 17:08:54
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Erin M Evans is fantastic. And yes, that is true, character and plot details are largely up to the author, but there is a certain conforming in that the book has to address a certain event. The Avatar series, for example. The characters and details could develop how the author wanted (so long as said details were canonically accurate), but the Time of Troubles still needed to be addressed. That is what I meant by conforming. Certain points have to be reached, ie, get X. Again, not necessarily bad thing. I like seeing canonical events play out in the novels, and one of the these I love about the Realms is it's rich setting.
Erik Scott de Bie, Jeleigh Johnson, Jeff Grub, Elaine Cunningham, just to name a few, have written great books in the Realms. I never thought Denning was all that bad. Not prize writing, but I never thought he sucked. I am sure some of them were meant to be game designers, never novelists lol. During the Abyssal Plague arc, which was a multi-world spanning events, they were releasing novels set in Nentir Vale ("core" D&D, I believe). I bought and read them all. Some of the writing was...well, bad, frankly lol.
Of course, I would rather have game designers write some novels than not have any at all, at this point (Salvatore being the exception, since all we are getting now is Drizzt). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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12swords
Acolyte
19 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2019 : 22:59:38
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Yeah I realize there's always this overarching theme that WOTC demands of a novel series. So if the writer had some kick-A ideas about an illithid city and the book is supposed to be about Netheril and phaerimms, I could see how the book becomes average at best when he/she has to come up with lesser material on a deadline. And sometimes the company does restrict character choice; didn't RAS want to make the main character of Cleric Quintet a monk but they wanted a cleric?
And it's no surprise books that are based on games are usually very linear like most games. But that's the thing, I wouldn't even mind a book that's basically a play-through of one of the published adventure modules if it was entertaining and imaginative. That so many of the books fail to take advantage of a rich fantasy setting seems like a missed opportunity.
I had to look up Abyssal Plague and Nentvir vale books and yeah, if they're related to 4ed, no wonder they're awful. Did anything good come from 4e? |
Edited by - 12swords on 31 Jul 2019 04:16:15 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2019 : 23:17:24
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Well, like I said, even some of the ones that do have linear plots have been great. It is very possible to have a reachly, detailed story even with a linear plotline.
Lol I hated what 4e did to the setting, but I kept up with the novels (at least we were getting novels) because I wanted to know what happened. And there were good novels written during that era. Erin M Evans' Brimstone Angels, for example (which carries over into 5e). Unbroken Chain by Jeleigh Johnson, Shadowbane by Scott de Bie, just to name a couple. I actually enjoyed Bruce Cordell's Abolethic Sovereignty trilogy (definitely read Stardeep first though. So, good novels were written during that time, despite what 4e did to the setting as a whole.
I liked the Abyssal Plague arc lol, but some of the writing left much to be desired. Sword of the Gods and Shadowbane (mentioned above. The second in the series also deals with Abyssal Plague, if I remember correctly), which were the FR books written about AP, were good. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2019 : 23:49:06
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Some FR novels that either aren't as linear, or at least feel less linear, even if they in fact are, are: Last Mythal trilogy, Evermeet: Island of Elves (if you want to know about elven and drow history, this book is your go-to) Starlight and Shadows trilogy (really, can't go wrong with Cunningham), the aforementioned Brimstone Angels. I also really liked the War of the Spider Queen series, but people have varying opinions. Still, if you're looking for something that doesn't feel as linear, it's a good one. It has two follow-up trilogies, Empyrean Odyssey, and Lady Penitent. LP did have lore issues, and most of what happened has been ignored or retconned, so read with a grain of salt, but I liked it for the characters, and I mention it because it is a follow-up trilogy, so you get to see what some characters are up to. Shadowbane, Unbroken Chain duology also didn't feel linear and had developed characters. Also the Erevis Cale books are fantastic. Great story and characters.
There are others, but these are novels (imho, anyway) that did a good job of giving lore and history, and giving us a good story with developed characters. Others might say differently (there are many novels in the Realms, and we aren't all going to like the same ones), but that is my take on them. If nothing else, you'll get some lore and history out of them. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 30 Jul 2019 23:52:28 |
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12swords
Acolyte
19 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2019 : 04:37:12
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Thanks for the advice. I'm not sure I'll actually read any of the ones you mentioned but I'll keep the names in mind.
I read the first half of the first Erevis Cale book and while I do agree it's better written than most of the FR stuff IMO it wasn't fantastic. But I do plan on finishing them one day so maybe as I get more invested I'll look at them differently. The author can definitely write but one thing that kept bugging me was that Drasek Riven kept sneering throughout the story. Riven's name couldn't be mentioned without the word 'sneer' following within a sentence or two. I'm like, ok we get it, dude likes to sneer a lot, he's like Sean Penn in that regard.
I know it's impossible to have a richly detailed, complex plot like A Song of Ice and Fire in an RPG novel series of 3 books of 300 pages each. But the fact that books based on a high fantasy setting often display largely unimaginative plots bothers me. Most FR books rarely make use of Raise Dead or Resurrection magic. It's as if they view such magic as a crutch, and so write their books like a standard thriller or adventure novel, with the only magic being blaster type spells (evocation).
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2019 : 05:20:24
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The more you read, the more fleshed out the world becomes  . Drizzt is cool, but branching out teaches you a lot more about the setting. I learned more the more I read. I encourage you to finish EC. The overuse of sneer or not lol, it's a great read. But start with what interests you, then go from there. For example, I was interested in the books about gods or the elves, so I looked for books pertaining to them, then branched out further from there.
I think game setting novels are held for a different (perhaps lower?) standard than "regular" (or I guess original) fantasy novels like GoT, Wheel of Time, etc. I read a lot of fantasy, and it is interesting to read an FR novel and then an non-FR novel. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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gylippus
Seeker
67 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2019 : 20:48:33
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Luckily someone dumped some more FR books at the used book store and I almost have all of the Harpers books now.
I just finished reading Curse of the Shadowmage
I enjoyed Crypt of the Shadowking so I was looking forward to this book. I did like the book but I felt like it was a step down from the previous book rather than a step up, which was a bit of a disappointment.
First, it felt like the plot was a somewhat of a rehash of the previous book with a few twists thrown in. The Song of the Saurials suffered from the same problem. Moander again? Shadowking again? Alright. It just seems like the author could have come up with something a little more original.
Second, one of my favorite characters, Tyveris is basically sidelined for the whole book and we get Jewel/Cormik. These characters are fine but Jewel didn't do much for me. I still have no idea why she didn't age. Plus, Caledan gets the short end of the stick. He loses his magic and loses the woman.
A previous poster mentioned it was odd that Morhion and Mari end up together. I agree 100%. The relationship made no sense. I would have preferred that Mari and Caledan continued together and he didn't lose his magic. The relationship between Morhion and Mari was never fully developed and the plot would have worked fine without it.
What can I say about K'shar? One sentence is still bouncing around in my head:
Corm Orp, sixty leagues to the northeast. He would be in Corm Orp sunrise two days hence.
Wait, a league is 3.45 miles (yes, I looked it up). So this guy can run 207 miles in 2 days? I looked up records for ultra-marathons. A guy ran 100 miles in about 11.5 hours, but this was on a track, not through a forest with gullies and uneven ground. I know we are in a fantasy world but it just seemed over the top and made me not like this character at all. Everything he does is super human (drow). In another passage it says that K'shar is credited with killing entire legions of Zhents and Red wizards. Wait....... a legion is a big number. It is 3000 - 6000 men in the Roman army. But let's say it was figurative. Even figuratively a legion should be a lot. There is no way this guy, with his bare hands, killed a legion of Red Wizards. That is just another ridiculous over statement that makes this character silly.
I wasn't going to do it, but I have to mention the similarities between this book and LOTR. The shadestar functions somewhat like the one ring. The shadevari are just like the nazgul. At one point they even ride big lizard batlike steeds. K'shar runs halfway across the kingdom, just like Aragon/Legolas/Gimli in the Two Towers. I have no problem with fantasy being inspired by Tolkien. We can find that everywhere. I think the author still infuses enough of his own creativity and vision to get around the obvious references. I should also mention this is written in 1995, so before the movies came out, but he obviously read the books.
All in all, I would place this book about middle of the road Harpers so far. It isn't as good as Night Parade, Elfshadow, Masquerades, or its predecessor. I found it better than Parched Sea, Red Magic, Ring of Winter, and Soldiers of Ice. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2019 : 21:21:40
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K'shar fascinates me because it is the true Harper assassin that Arilyn never was. He is sent out to hunt and murder renegade Harpers. They are just brutal sending him out to kill Mari because she won't obey a Harper mission to take down her own lover. BUT...in Code of the Harpers, they do state flate out this is what they do to renegades.
This is why it makes me so mad the contrivance at the end of Elfshadow about needing to keep Kymil alive to "testigy" despite the use of truth rings in courts in other books and the innocence of Arilyn AND that they keep Kymil alive after he's been proven guilty..sigh.
I was the one who said Morhion and Mari ending up together makes no sense, it was just an odd relationship out of no where. I feel bad, they took the Caledan character and kind of neutered him right out of the starting gate for this book. And Tyveris gets nothing to do. I did like the Marik reveal though!
Now I want to re-read this series... |
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gylippus
Seeker
67 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2019 : 21:39:15
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| Seravin, when you mentioned K'shar I just realized I forgot something. Why couldn't the Harpers use magic to determine where Caledan or Mari were? In the Fallen Fortress it is very clear that Dorigen can use magic to spy on Cadderly until he uses counter magic. In Red Magic the wizards use all sorts of wards on their keeps to keep out prying eyes. The Harpers surely have someone powerful enough to do this kind of magic. And if they can do that kind of magic why can't they just open a dimension door or teleport someone right to Mari to kill her? |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2019 : 21:45:57
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| Yeah, if they really deemed Caledan to be the threat he was (and Mari for defending him) to the entire Realms then some senior Harper wizards could easily have tracked them down using magic and dealt with the problem much more quickly and efficiently..but never let logic get in the way of a good story :) I suppose you can handwave that if you have a super half-drow who can run infinitely and never fails to kill someone or track someone, they felt confident enough to not involve their mages? |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2019 : 23:26:46
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It's been a few years since I have read the Shadowking books, and I've read quite a few books since then, but it's coming back to me now. I remember K'shar.
I agree about the romance between Mari and Morhion feeling random. If Caledan and Mari didn't work out, okay, but to have her suddenly go to someone else? I |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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12swords
Acolyte
19 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2019 : 16:58:27
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quote:
Originally posted by gylippus
Luckily someone dumped some more FR books at the used book store and I almost have all of the Harpers books now.
I just finished reading Curse of the Shadowmage
What can I say about K'shar? One sentence is still bouncing around in my head:
Corm Orp, sixty leagues to the northeast. He would be in Corm Orp sunrise two days hence.
Wait, a league is 3.45 miles (yes, I looked it up). So this guy can run 207 miles in 2 days? I looked up records for ultra-marathons. A guy ran 100 miles in about 11.5 hours, but this was on a track, not through a forest with gullies and uneven ground. I know we are in a fantasy world but it just seemed over the top and made me not like this character at all. Everything he does is super human (drow). In another passage it says that K'shar is credited with killing entire legions of Zhents and Red wizards. Wait....... a legion is a big number. It is 3000 - 6000 men in the Roman army. But let's say it was figurative. Even figuratively a legion should be a lot. There is no way this guy, with his bare hands, killed a legion of Red Wizards. That is just another ridiculous over statement that makes this character silly.
I've been skimming some of my Harpers novels. Elfshadow looks pretty good, Elaine seems like a good writer, I'm going to have to put her stuff on my list. I read a bit of Winter Witch which she wrote for Pathfinder, wasn't that interesting to me but maybe I'll take another look at that as well.
Isn't K'shar some type of monk, which would explain how he can travel on foot so fast? In the book it was stated that no horse could outrun him and no weapon was deadlier than his hands.
Also the part about him killing legions of Red Wizards and Zhents seemed more hyperbole than literal to me, as in he's killed a lot of both in his career but not all at the same time. Like Artemis Entreri, if you've been an assassin for decades you pile up quite the body count. Is it literally thousands? Probably not but it's a lot. |
Edited by - 12swords on 01 Aug 2019 17:05:39 |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2019 : 17:12:36
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| Elaine is great, and Elfshadow and Elfsong in particular are quite strong (I like Elfsong more than Elfshadow because of the contrivance in Elfshadow)- Elaine really gets the "feel" of the Realms and writes the setting in a way few other authors do apart from Jeff Grubb and obviously Ed Greenwood. I also think Ring of Winter was well done, but Gylippus hates it so don't mind me! |
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Just Another Book Thread
