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Dalor Darden
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USA
3695 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2019 :  20:33:33  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Nasty little monsters...with 2d6 for Hit Points.

Am I missing something? Why 2d6 for HP? That makes your average Goblin pretty tough...

Has anyone reduced their Hit Dice? I just feel like they are very strong now.

quote:
Example:

We were playing and the party thief sneaks up behind a goblin, but only does 6 points of damage...the goblin is still there!


I feel like I'm missing something on how Goblins from the Goblin Marches aren't going to be a lot more difficult for Cormyr to deal with now...no jokes.

AD&D for me!

Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3580 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2019 :  02:07:18  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
They avg. 7 hit points. A 1st level Rogue with a 15 Dex (+2 mod) and a short sword with Sneak Attack (2d6 damage total) is doing an avg of 9 damage. Basically they rolled worse than avg for their damage.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3695 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2019 :  04:15:40  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

They avg. 7 hit points. A 1st level Rogue with a 15 Dex (+2 mod) and a short sword with Sneak Attack (2d6 damage total) is doing an avg of 9 damage. Basically they rolled worse than avg for their damage.




That is kind of my point. Goblins used to be fodder and now they are not. In a stand up melee, they are not going to be so easily killed as in prior editions.

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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3580 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2019 :  06:03:36  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
That is kind of my point. Goblins used to be fodder and now they are not. In a stand up melee, they are not going to be so easily killed as in prior editions.



Maybe I'm missing something but Goblins in 3.5 had 1d8+1 HD and 5 avg HP. Same Rogue in 3.5 with Sneak Attack (and same damage rolls) is only getting 4 avg damage with a short sword (thus the goblin remains alive).

In 4e your average Goblin Warrior (level 1 skirmisher) has a whopping 29 HP. But they are more of a solider type and thus not as common. Plus the "fodder" is still recognized as goblin minions (1 hp) so a swarm with those is more likely them goblin warriors.

5e sorta goes back to the 3.5 style of one goblin-type for most. I think a group of PCs is going to have an easy time with a small group of them - especially with easier access to AoE effects.

So while 5e goblins got a slight boost in HP, the forces of Cormyr also got boosts too. All in all I think its all relatively balanced.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3695 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2019 :  17:50:19  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm still stuck in the decades of playing 1e/2e I guess...


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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7853 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2019 :  23:29:52  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
That is kind of my point. Goblins used to be fodder and now they are not. In a stand up melee, they are not going to be so easily killed as in prior editions.



Maybe I'm missing something but Goblins in 3.5 had 1d8+1 HD and 5 avg HP. Same Rogue in 3.5 with Sneak Attack (and same damage rolls) is only getting 4 avg damage with a short sword (thus the goblin remains alive).

In 4e your average Goblin Warrior (level 1 skirmisher) has a whopping 29 HP. But they are more of a solider type and thus not as common. Plus the "fodder" is still recognized as goblin minions (1 hp) so a swarm with those is more likely them goblin warriors.

5e sorta goes back to the 3.5 style of one goblin-type for most. I think a group of PCs is going to have an easy time with a small group of them - especially with easier access to AoE effects.

So while 5e goblins got a slight boost in HP, the forces of Cormyr also got boosts too. All in all I think its all relatively balanced.



short sword + sneak attack = 2d6 in 3.5e = 7 points of damage on average. In 3.5e they would have been killed by such an attack. A 1st level "warrior" type with a simple 12 str and a longsword would likewise to 5.5 points of damage, also killing the goblin even when rounding that damage down. Dalor's got a valid argument.


Goblins in 4e range from the cutter that has a single hit point to those that jump all the way up to the blackblade with 25 points, which simply makes me cringe in the disparity. But that cutter would be your "average" goblin, so they made them even more of fodder. Your "average" goblin was able to be taken out usually by a first level "not very special" warrior in a single hit.

Now in 5e with 2d6 hit points, they're something that a 1st level "warrior" will probably have to hit twice. Also, not only that, they also do 1d6+2 points of damage, so they now deal more damage on average and they're +4 to hit. Dalor has a point. I didn't realize it until he brought it up, but its valid.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7853 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2019 :  23:31:13  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
That is kind of my point. Goblins used to be fodder and now they are not. In a stand up melee, they are not going to be so easily killed as in prior editions.



Maybe I'm missing something but Goblins in 3.5 had 1d8+1 HD and 5 avg HP. Same Rogue in 3.5 with Sneak Attack (and same damage rolls) is only getting 4 avg damage with a short sword (thus the goblin remains alive).

In 4e your average Goblin Warrior (level 1 skirmisher) has a whopping 29 HP. But they are more of a solider type and thus not as common. Plus the "fodder" is still recognized as goblin minions (1 hp) so a swarm with those is more likely them goblin warriors.

5e sorta goes back to the 3.5 style of one goblin-type for most. I think a group of PCs is going to have an easy time with a small group of them - especially with easier access to AoE effects.

So while 5e goblins got a slight boost in HP, the forces of Cormyr also got boosts too. All in all I think its all relatively balanced.



short sword + sneak attack = 2d6 in 3.5e = 7 points of damage on average. In 3.5e they would have been killed by such an attack. A 1st level "warrior" type with a simple 12 str and a longsword would likewise to 5.5 points of damage, also killing the goblin even when rounding that damage down. Dalor's got a valid argument.


Goblins in 4e range from the cutter that has a single hit point to those that jump all the way up to the blackblade with 25 points, which simply makes me cringe in the disparity. But that cutter would be your "average" goblin, so they made them even more of fodder. Your "average" goblin was able to be taken out usually by a first level "not very special" warrior in a single hit.

Now in 5e with 2d6 hit points, they're something that a 1st level "warrior" will probably have to hit twice. Also, not only that, they also do 1d6+2 points of damage, so they now deal more damage on average and they're +4 to hit. Dalor has a point. I didn't realize it until he brought it up, but its valid.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3580 Posts

Posted - 13 Mar 2019 :  01:36:06  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


short sword + sneak attack = 2d6 in 3.5e = 7 points of damage on average. In 3.5e they would have been killed by such an attack. A 1st level "warrior" type with a simple 12 str and a longsword would likewise to 5.5 points of damage, also killing the goblin even when rounding that damage down. Dalor's got a valid argument.


The 5e rogue rolled lower than average, otherwise he would've killed the goblin outright. In 5e you add your Dex to finesse weapon damage rolls so even a Dex 15 (and I'd wager 98% of Rogues are starting with at least a 16) is avg. 9 points of damage with SA and a short sword [2d6] = 7 + 2 for 9. Most level 1 fighters (and I'd say they're getting a 16 in Str) are doing an avg of 7.5 [1d8] + 3 for 7.5 and enough to skewer a goblin.

Let's also not forget that 5e thankfully got rid of that ridiculous notion of full-attack/standard attack non-sense so any warrior of 5th level and higher are getting multiple attacks a turn (more with action surge).


quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


Goblins in 4e range from the cutter that has a single hit point to those that jump all the way up to the blackblade with 25 points, which simply makes me cringe in the disparity. But that cutter would be your "average" goblin, so they made them even more of fodder. Your "average" goblin was able to be taken out usually by a first level "not very special" warrior in a single hit.


See, i like the disparity of HP and roles because having one for an entire species is.....short sighted IMO. Having a variety to throw at your players at varying heroic levels (1-10) with some success gives the monster longevity. Though you're correct, fodder was easily come by via Minions with 4e and it would be assumed they are going to be in a much larger supply during an all-out assault than a bunch of level 1-4 Soldiers with 25+ HP.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Now in 5e with 2d6 hit points, they're something that a 1st level "warrior" will probably have to hit twice. Also, not only that, they also do 1d6+2 points of damage, so they now deal more damage on average and they're +4 to hit. Dalor has a point. I didn't realize it until he brought it up, but its valid.



1st level warriors are avg. 7.5 damage with a Str of 16 and a Longsword. That is based on the acceptance of Standard point buy and that a player is smart enough to put points into their attack stat (with racial adjustments too).

Continuing with a standard 1st level warrior, They're going to have either heavy armor (like chainmail) and a shield or medium armor and use some of their DEX. So most likely a starting AC of 18. That goblin has a struggling 70% miss chance for every attack they make and will never ever drop a 1st level warrior with at least 10 HP (12 for Barbarians) in 1 attack.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."

Edited by - Diffan on 13 Mar 2019 03:54:01
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3695 Posts

Posted - 13 Mar 2019 :  01:51:47  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think he was talking warrior with a little w meaning common soldier and not an adventurer.

AD&D for me!
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3580 Posts

Posted - 13 Mar 2019 :  03:52:36  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

I think he was talking warrior with a little w meaning common soldier and not an adventurer.



What does that mean though? We have a Guard in the Monster Manual that acts as town guard, militia, bodyguard to nobles, etc. They have less than par stats which I would adjust base on race (human would get +1 to everything, wood elf gets +2 Dex, +1 Wis, etc).

With that in mind, a human Guard has an AC 16 (11 hp), and attacks with a spear at +4, 1d6+2 (avg. 6). Against our common goblin (AC 15, +4 scimitar - 1d6+1 [5 avg dmg]) the human pulls ahead with an a 45% hit chance (compared to the goblin's 40%) and can still kill it with a single strike - albeit a better than average roll. The goblin has a harder time hitting the guard and will never kill him outright with a single attack.

In a war of attrition, humans pull ahead but I will say it's more balanced to benefit the goblins compared to earlier editions. Does this significantly change the landscape of War? Eh, I'd say only marginally but not enough to raise eye-brows over. Besides, thats why we have adventures in the first place, to help hold back the tide.

Also this would be a grest scenario to use the mass-battle system 5e has in terms of what a war would look like, PCs being leaders of troops vs. Goblins being led by a goblin Boss and maybe some nefarious BBEG like an Oni Mage or even Drow.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7853 Posts

Posted - 13 Mar 2019 :  12:31:42  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


short sword + sneak attack = 2d6 in 3.5e = 7 points of damage on average. In 3.5e they would have been killed by such an attack. A 1st level "warrior" type with a simple 12 str and a longsword would likewise to 5.5 points of damage, also killing the goblin even when rounding that damage down. Dalor's got a valid argument.


The 5e rogue rolled lower than average, otherwise he would've killed the goblin outright. In 5e you add your Dex to finesse weapon damage rolls so even a Dex 15 (and I'd wager 98% of Rogues are starting with at least a 16) is avg. 9 points of damage with SA and a short sword [2d6] = 7 + 2 for 9. Most level 1 fighters (and I'd say they're getting a 16 in Str) are doing an avg of 7.5 [1d8] + 3 for 7.5 and enough to skewer a goblin.

Let's also not forget that 5e thankfully got rid of that ridiculous notion of full-attack/standard attack non-sense so any warrior of 5th level and higher are getting multiple attacks a turn (more with action surge).


quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


Goblins in 4e range from the cutter that has a single hit point to those that jump all the way up to the blackblade with 25 points, which simply makes me cringe in the disparity. But that cutter would be your "average" goblin, so they made them even more of fodder. Your "average" goblin was able to be taken out usually by a first level "not very special" warrior in a single hit.


See, i like the disparity of HP and roles because having one for an entire species is.....short sighted IMO. Having a variety to throw at your players at varying heroic levels (1-10) with some success gives the monster longevity. Though you're correct, fodder was easily come by via Minions with 4e and it would be assumed they are going to be in a much larger supply during an all-out assault than a bunch of level 1-4 Soldiers with 25+ HP.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Now in 5e with 2d6 hit points, they're something that a 1st level "warrior" will probably have to hit twice. Also, not only that, they also do 1d6+2 points of damage, so they now deal more damage on average and they're +4 to hit. Dalor has a point. I didn't realize it until he brought it up, but its valid.



1st level warriors are avg. 7.5 damage with a Str of 16 and a Longsword. That is based on the acceptance of Standard point buy and that a player is smart enough to put points into their attack stat (with racial adjustments too).

Continuing with a standard 1st level warrior, They're going to have either heavy armor (like chainmail) and a shield or medium armor and use some of their DEX. So most likely a starting AC of 18. That goblin has a struggling 70% miss chance for every attack they make and will never ever drop a 1st level warrior with at least 10 HP (12 for Barbarians) in 1 attack.



Bear in mind, I'm not thinking Players here. I'm thinking your average guardsman. That's why I posted such small stats. I wouldn't expect them to have 16's. I wouldn't be surprised with 13's and 14's though. Thus even for a town guardsman, most goblins would be a roughly fair fight (i.e. whoever hits first will likely win, but the guardsman just might be able to take 2 hits). EDIT: and I see later you found some guardsman stats for comparison, which kind of bear this out, but still guardsmen will likely have to hit twice to kill the goblin.


On the 4e hit point disparity... I agree there should be lesser and greater versions of goblins. That's a great idea that they started at the end of 3.5e, and some of the minion concepts in 4e are great. However changing the hit points from 1 hp to the next jump being 25 hp seems insane to me. I could easily see the cutters being able to have 5 hp and maybe their next jump up should only have say 11 or so. I do find the 5e jump a little better than the 4e one (regular goblin 7 hp, boss is 21 hp, still think there should be a next tier with maybe around 12-14 hp... but that's easy enough to develop).


In all, I'd say 5e is still going the right direction, but I'd still say that Dalor does have a point. Goblins feel just a little bit more nasty to me in 5e than they did in previous editions where I literally thought of them as cackling, crazed fodder for the most part. It was the hobgoblins and bugbears that I thought of as more fearsome and warlike. Goblins were that lower tier that the other tiers often ate.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 13 Mar 2019 12:43:56
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1255 Posts

Posted - 13 Mar 2019 :  17:25:16  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You have to remember that 4e minions were a cinematic tool, not some simulationist stuff. They were there for narrative purposes, to make the players feel baddass (“you want to kill a bunch of orcs with just one arrow, like Legolas in the movies? I have the rigth minion for you”), not to simulate an exact difference between in-universe kinds of monsters.

The only difference between the goblin cutter with 1 hp and the blackblade with 25 hp is the narrative role the DM has for them.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 13 Mar 2019 17:27:06
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3695 Posts

Posted - 13 Mar 2019 :  17:55:24  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I guess I can simply reduce HP a bit to suit my own taste for how they should be...sort of like Zeromaru X said...make them a bit more cinematic and less a threat for certain ones.

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7853 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2019 :  01:26:50  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, its purely the HP that would be setting them as "more powerful in this edition" in my book. Setting the average goblin to 5 hp would solve it.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe

USA
501 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2019 :  17:31:05  Show Profile Send moonbeast a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I do agree with the OP. A two-hit dice monster is quite tough considering it's rated a mere CR 1/4 monster.

Are we sure none of us has checked the subsequent 5th Edition Errata? The original books for 5E were published in 2014, and have since seen some Errata and minor corrections (the books themselves received minor "revisions").


In any case… it's not game breaking. As DM, I could just drop the median HP to 5 or 6, making them just slightly more cannon-fodderish.




Edited by - moonbeast on 15 Mar 2019 17:31:44
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
3695 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2019 :  17:47:43  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by moonbeast

I do agree with the OP. A two-hit dice monster is quite tough considering it's rated a mere CR 1/4 monster.

Are we sure none of us has checked the subsequent 5th Edition Errata? The original books for 5E were published in 2014, and have since seen some Errata and minor corrections (the books themselves received minor "revisions").


In any case… it's not game breaking. As DM, I could just drop the median HP to 5 or 6, making them just slightly more cannon-fodderish.


I just bought the gift set over my original set and they are both 2HD...haven't checked any errata on them.

Kobolds are even 2D6-2 HP...so the 2 dice seem standard for previously one hit one kill monsters.

Hells, irony on top of it all is that an ORC is a HIGHER threat than a DROW now...maybe not elite drow...but still!

AD&D for me!
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7853 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2019 :  18:39:10  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

quote:
Originally posted by moonbeast

I do agree with the OP. A two-hit dice monster is quite tough considering it's rated a mere CR 1/4 monster.

Are we sure none of us has checked the subsequent 5th Edition Errata? The original books for 5E were published in 2014, and have since seen some Errata and minor corrections (the books themselves received minor "revisions").


In any case… it's not game breaking. As DM, I could just drop the median HP to 5 or 6, making them just slightly more cannon-fodderish.


I just bought the gift set over my original set and they are both 2HD...haven't checked any errata on them.

Kobolds are even 2D6-2 HP...so the 2 dice seem standard for previously one hit one kill monsters.

Hells, irony on top of it all is that an ORC is a HIGHER threat than a DROW now...maybe not elite drow...but still!



REALLY? I had not delved that deeply, but its kind of odd. The orc has 2 more hp, but a lower AC... but better to hit and better dmg. That's a definitive change, and I see orcs that would have been prone to obeying any drow they meet being a lot more militant towards them now. Before a dark elf getting the drop on some drow could have probably taken out a few on their own. Now, a single orc could probably stand toe to toe with that same drow and probably win. Guess I'm getting lax in my old age and not paying a lot of attention to the changes in 5e.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe

USA
501 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2019 :  02:29:03  Show Profile Send moonbeast a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

I just bought the gift set over my original set and they are both 2HD...haven't checked any errata on them.



The 2018-19 boxed Gift Set contains ALL the cumulative errata/corrections made since 2014. There is no "Errata Section" in those books. The books are printed with all the corrections already integrated. It also modifies the wording on some sentences to "clarify" certain rules, etc.

That's the reason I also have the Gift Set on order. (I already have the three core books from 2014, the initial year 5th Edition was published).


For those who already own the original printing core books (circa 2014), and you don't feel the desire to buy the revised Gift Set books, you can download the Errata PDFs for free it's called the Safe Advice Compendium…. Jeremy Crawford announces them all the time in his Sage Advice column.


http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/sage-advice-compendium

Edited by - moonbeast on 16 Mar 2019 02:33:05
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