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portose_sharpe
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Ireland
69 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2019 :  19:26:57  Show Profile Send portose_sharpe a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Hello All,

So once again i come seeking your help/opinion.

Epic Game - long running for 3 years now. with the pcs playing different Characters at different points the same 12 characters back and forward.i have intertwined the games.

Currently we are playing a Homebrew time line - 3.5 rules, based in Cormyr the group is made up of members its army-

Cormyr is currently at war with Sembia - shade - and an undead horde which has being going on for over 2 years - Cormyr in our Homebrew it alot larger with it controlling the Dales and as far as and including Westgate.

The Enemy have be known to mindrape people and use them as spies & also recruit cormyr armed forces willing into their cause.

The commander a Constal Kensai sworn to the Royal Family.
A Orion Green Dragon - who recently un-covered 3 high positioned enemy spies.
A Orion Purple Dragon - very loyal to his commander
A respected war Wizard - with great battle respect from the purple dragons.

so,

Recently a rumor begin to spread quite quickly through Cormyr of a disagreement between the constal and the war wizard, and of a task the constal asked the war wizard to carry out - digging up a purple dragons grave ( which is not legal without the lords say so - they didn't want to include the lord as they wanted to ask the dead person questions about the lord ) the pc's where the only people in this secure room- so no one else would of known. --- however the pcs took it as the enemy must of found out.

then a couple of month later more rumors about the pcs mission started to spread quickly but painting the green dragon is very good way. again details of missions that only the pcs knew.

then a noble broke from tradition and managed to get a "petition" through to get the green dragon promoted- a act which the commander was not very happy about - and he felt that something was up

he felted that either the enemy was moving the green dragon into a better position because he was working for them unwilling / willing.

or he felt that the green dragon was playing his own game and spreading rumors to better himself and to damaged the other pcs.

the Commander tried to get the war wizard to dominate him to see where the truth was. but it failed and the green dragon ran away ( for 3 rounds ) then returned to talk about be refused to accept the spell- ( as a DM i do play that good character would not dominate others if they person didn't want it, unless there was strong evidence )

The green dragon says the commander doesn't like him and would never promote him - and then started reviling other fights between pc's and npcs. to the lord marshal

they both involved the lord high marshal.

so my question is, would the lord marshal force the spell based on the above and the wish from the commander for it to be done or is the above weak and being a good nation he wouldn't force the pc to do it. the lord marshal is a lord good npc.

would the royal mage want to see if this high ranking green dragon is telling the truth, and the first rumors did do some damage between the commander and war wizards.

and none of the pcs are Good good, they are all neutral good to evil.

hope this is all clear. i think i have included all the needed information,

Mod edit: Moved to a more appropriate shelf.

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 11 Feb 2019 20:26:51

roninshadow
Seeker

Australia
15 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2019 :  03:31:11  Show Profile Send roninshadow a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would have a couple of questions before I could give my own opinion?
quote:

The commander a Constal Kensai sworn to the Royal Family.
A Orion Green Dragon - who recently un-covered 3 high positioned enemy spies.
A Orion Purple Dragon - very loyal to his commander
A respected war Wizard - with great battle respect from the purple dragons.


Is the constal in the blue dragons?? a commander is a navy rank.
If not as I guess by reading he is a purple dragon constal (Colonel)


the first rumour of digging up purple dragon grave:
when the purple dragon’s grave dug up and rumours appeared about a disagreement of digging up the soldier? Did one of them disagree digging him up?
when their superiors found out about it was it fingering pointing between purple dragons and war wizards? This looks like a simple tactic of causing in house fighting by the enemy.

quote:
“the pc's where the only people in this secure room- so no one else would have known”

How did the PC’s know the room was secure? Was is checked before and after each meeting by the PC’s.
Why didn’t they go to another superior to inform them of their plans??
Purple dragons are there to enforce the laws and not to be selective of ones to ignore
If you have an enemy like the shade who had many spies and have methods to listen in on their enemies that could even surprise the war wizards I wouldn’t be so quick to rule it out.
Did anything coming from the dead purple dragon questions about the lord to help them?
quote:
“painting the green dragon is very good way. again, details of missions that only the pcs knew”
What do you mean in a good way?


His skin looked beautiful in the moon light? #128522;
Rescued a hostage? Found enemy base? Or found 3 high level spies? Etc
I am a bit confused why first you keep good news away from the army and populous.
I looking to see if there is a pattern in these events.
Morale is important in the military, because it improves unit cohesion. Without good morale, a force will be more likely to give up or surrender.
Why would the constal have a problem if the green dragon did do a good mission?? On else its about killing a cormyrean noble.
This is a bit confusing, sounds more like a top secret commando unit/spy ring instead.

quote:
“then a noble broke from tradition and managed to get a "petition" through to get the green dragon promoted- a act which the commander was not very happy about - and he felt that something was up”

as far as I know its not breaking for tradition in time of war but only in a time of war Nobles introduce officers to high ranks officers or the king for promotion. Field commission would be not uncommon as soldiers do die in war.
Is this your own homebrew rule as I thought the nobles were heavy involved in commissions been given out to NCO’s?.


quote:
he felted that either the enemy was moving the green dragon into a better position because he was working for them unwilling / willing. or he felt that the green dragon was playing his own game and spreading rumours to better himself and to damaged the other pcs. the Commander tried to get the war wizard to dominate him to see where the truth was

The first question I have on this is in your homebrew cormyr (is it a good nation?) does the constal have the right to dominate a person because of a “feeling” in a good nation?. I really don’t think so if good nation.

If he is accusing someone working with the enemy he should have something to back it up,
As it’s a very serious charge, because if he gets it wrong that’s the end of his career. Means his judgement is flawed and officers cannot be seen as flawed.
Why couldn’t he use zone of truth or another truth spells?
Proof and evidence are what is needed. If this was allowed you would have constals and overswords dominating people left right and centre trying to find out about rival’s nobles and commissioned officers because of a feeling.
If that’s the way he like to play it then dominate the constal about digging up the purple dragon grave and inform the high marshal about all if any crimes he may have committed. It just doesn’t work like that.


Laws and enforcement of them are the basis for Cormyr's greatness. To a Cormyrean, it was laws, conceived by the king and enforced by his Purple Dragons and other militias, that tamed the wilderness of Cormyr and brought the area under an organized, peaceful existence.
The Legal Court
One of Cormyr's greatest achievements is its court system. Of all the legal systems of Faerûn, Cormyr's works the best. Whether or not it is the best system for its subjects is a matter of debate, but the system works as well in practice as it did on paper at its inception.

The court system works much like those in other kingdoms. The local lord or noble sits in judgment and sentences violators to punishment. Nobles can demand to be tried by either the king or a jury of their peers (other rulers or senior War Wizards). If they appeal the verdict, the appeal must be to a jury of a dozen commoners chosen personally by the king.

However, Cormyr is unusual in two respects. First, the accused is not thought of as guilty or innocent until proven otherwise. Instead, a suspect is required to "respond" to the charges and the accuser is required to "substantiate" the charges.

As you can read here if the accuser has nothing to “substantiate” the charges but a feeling stop wasting the courts time as you would hear in matlock#128522;.
So correct me if I am wrong on this:
Rumours about the constal and war wizard having a disagreement were spread over a dead soldiers grave? was rumours truth? And they thought it was the enemy?
Rumours that the green dragon did a good job on a mission?
But the constal isn’t happy about that?
Did the constal ask the green dragon if did this?
Was he ordered not to tell anybody about the mission?
Why would the royal mage get involved this would be very beneath him (spreading rumours isn’t a crime??) that’s if the green ranger is not mind raped or willing working with the enemy.
But why would the constal go to the high lord marshal with no evidence of a crime or something solid to work on?
Would the high lord marshal be conceived about how a medium rank officer is dominating other officer in the army with disregard for the protocol and justice system that already in place?
As you mention mind rape and looking in on this more, I would be looking at the constal been mind raped or why is he doing these things,
my reasons why:
did he break the law by digging up the grave or break an other laws??
Trying to keep other officer’s successful missions kept quiet. why?
The green dragon officer uncovered 3 high positioned spies ( could he want to stop him from finding more)
Trying to stop his promotion in case he would out rank him someday.
This was a brash and a bit reckless move for a purple dragon who are known for their discipline, skill, and loyalty.
If the ranger was mind raped by the enemy it’s the worst case of mind rape.
So, if the ranger is doing this himself. The only law I can see that would suite the crime is
Lese-Majesty

This law protects the royalty, nobility, public officials, War Wizards, and Purple Dragons from public slander and is distinct from normal slander because of a higher fine. This law also protects ambassadors of powers with diplomatic relations to Cormyr.

Punishment

Imprisonment – up to three days in jail, fine of 300 lions.

No nobody good or evil likes been dominated this is a long fought out debate over the use of dominated the use of it.

but this just an opinion.
looking forward to seen the debate start hopefully now in here



Edited by - roninshadow on 16 Feb 2019 03:34:09
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roninshadow
Seeker

Australia
15 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2019 :  17:10:34  Show Profile Send roninshadow a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Look up dragon magazine 198. It has very good explanation on how the court and laws work.
Historically, the War Wizards have magically monitored the thoughts and intentions of Cormyr’s citizenry to ensure that laws were upheld and to counter threats to the kingdom. However, the Spellplague, royal sentiment, and the Suzail Writ have conspired to greatly limit their ability to do so. After several attempts at mind-reaming resulted in the messy deaths of nobles and the drooling feeblemindedness of the wizards involved, the Crown banned the use of the practice on any citizen of Cormyr. The War Wizards still try to spy on everyone, but their methods are less invasive—and less effective. This development has not pleased a few War Wizards who are researching new rituals to read minds. Since failure could result in death or madness, the wizards seek third parties to test the ritual on undesirables who won’t be missed.
I don't know if domiate falls under this but maybe be worth looking at
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portose_sharpe
Seeker

Ireland
69 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2019 :  17:13:17  Show Profile Send portose_sharpe a Private Message  Reply with Quote
hello,

i will try to answer all your questions.

Yes it is the Purple dragons and he is a Constal and a Count.

The rumor is true, they didn't disagree as such. and they didn't inform other superiors as they didn't have any proof, and the person in question is an oversword and the son of a Duke. He is also the brother in-law to the Constal.

the room was secure - it was a magical warded war room. in high horn.

it wasnt so much as painting him in a good light that raised an eyebrow, it was in fact the volume of rumors being spread about the green dragon and lack of the rest of the unit/squad. and again with details that only the group would know.

In my homebrew i have never had nobles get involved in the miltary ranks unless it was about their own children or if they where a Duke.

Yes it is a Good nation, and the Green dragon has had a muddled start to his career with many marks against him.

I don't think the other players are accusing him of working with the enemy but rather moving things to benefit himself at the cost of the other players.

i don't think he through of zone of truth, plus the spell isn't one at one of the pc's have.

The constal was only recently / briefly dominated by a magical item, and he has since been questioned and dominate to confirm his loyalty and to check he is all good.

Yes The constal asked and to my memory the green dragon denied and then deflected to other pc's

Yes the conversation about the grave was ordered to kept quiet.

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roninshadow
Seeker

Australia
15 Posts

Posted - 17 Feb 2019 :  12:36:44  Show Profile Send roninshadow a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hello
I been looking at a couple of old posts that I replied to and noticed your name on one “DM question re highknights”? am I right in saying that is yours and the same group?? Or you DMing two Cormyrean games going?
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portose_sharpe
Seeker

Ireland
69 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2019 :  19:32:38  Show Profile Send portose_sharpe a Private Message  Reply with Quote
same group, same game,
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roninshadow
Seeker

Australia
15 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2019 :  20:21:17  Show Profile Send roninshadow a Private Message  Reply with Quote
well I can just imagine this is a volatile scenario

well reading back over the post with the high knight, and now this there is a history already between the constal and high lord marshal. How is relationship is viewed would be in your court.
If the lord high marshal wasn’t happy with the constal handling his personal information and does he know that he read it? this would be a rough start for the constal and his own history is a bit muddled with the lord high marshal and war wizards.

my opinion on this or if I was in your shoes

quote:
The rumour is true, they didn't disagree as such. and they didn't inform other superiors as they didn't have any proof, and the person in question is an oversword and the son of a Duke. He is also the brother in-law to the Constal.

So, they didn’t have proof on the oversword why didn’t they dominate him like the green dragon?!!
Because you can’t just go around dominating people in a good nation just because they have a feeling. If this was Thay or the shade no problems as they believe they are the law and free will means nothing, that’s why they deal in slaves.
They are two options here:
Because the rumour is truth would the green dragon fall under whistle blower?
As these actions were taken against superior officer without no other officer informed of their actions it is not sanctioned and a constal would not have the right or authority to do this. Even if the oversword is up to something does it mean every time the constal has a problem with a superior officer he can break the law to prove his point?
the Green dragon has had a muddled start to his career with many marks against him.
Muddled as in starting rumours before? Then that is a pattern. Been not loyal to the crown or purple dragons? Then he would be major issue for the green dragon. Or been a troublesome solider? If so and now an orion I guess he changed to get promoted.
If the green dragon is seen as a trouble maker: still have the same problem of no proof, let him have an open investigation into him till other war wizard or officers are happy with their finding.
If an of the PC’s interfere in anyway there will be seen as Obstruction of Justice which falls under common crime and is severe punishment plus to reinforce it more for PC’s the punishment will be more severe for them.
You may have objection to this by the PC’s, but they brought it to the lord high marshal, and they are officers under his command, and they are consequences with going to head of the purple dragons. If you’re playing 3E the lord high marshal would be Dauneth Marliir which is father in law to the king. He is lawful good he will follow rules of the law, he has fiercely loyal to the king and his word is law. Marliir was always outsiders at the Royal Court and has a reputation for been distance and short with nobles. This may help if you are playing him.

quote:
I don't think the other players are accusing him of working with the enemy but rather moving things to benefit himself at the cost of the other players.”


Is the “cost” digging up the grave? If so that’s a hard to over look as the temples would not be happy at all with this.
This is a low crime Lese-Majesty. This law protects the royalty, nobility, public officials, War Wizards, and Purple Dragons from public slander. But my problem with this is if the green dragon spread rumours about himself in a good way like painting himself as a hero I can’t see a crime as its not slander.
But I don’t know the full story behind it.

For the outside it looks like the constal (mid rank officer) has over stepped his authority and chain of command.
The green dragon failed in the chain of command.
First over stepping the chain of command by going start to lord high marshal. Other overswords and wardens don’t like to be stepped over. Did they go to an oversword or warden before going to the lord high marshal. Plus, there is history already between the constal and lord high marshal, this could benefit the green dragon but that is roleplaying.
If the green dragon did do this it’s a low crime but it has to be proven.
I can’t see why the royal mage getting involved, the only reason I see her getting involved as this would be the second time the same constal has been involved in a dispute between purple dragon and war wizards.

“Caladnei, Royal Magician
Since the retirement of her predecessor, the legendary Vangerdahast, Caladnei has slowly shed her reputation as an upstart, outlander mage. The daughter of Thabrant Swordsilver, a Cormyrian woodcarver who made his home and life in distant Turmish, Caladnei has long had to dodge rumours that she is the former lover, or the illegitimate daughter, or the magic construct of Vangerdahast. Despite such distractions, she has earned the respect of the War Wizards who serve under her and the nobles who owe fealty to the Dragon Throne. Like Filfaeril, Caladnei works closely with the Harpers to seek out and unveil enemies of the Crown and threats to Cormyr. With little interest in matters at court. As a former adventurer, the Royal Magician sees the value of chartered, Crown-licensed heroes roaming the realm. Such characters are given free reign to explore Cormyr’s wilds and ruins, driving out threats that would otherwise distract the Purple Dragons and the War Wizards from their more important tasks”

If Caladnei does get involved as you can read she has been dogged by rumours all her life. They were distractions for her and never got in the way of her duty. for a constal to complaint about rumours like this could really go against him, that distractions like this have hindered him in his duties and caused more rumours in the ranks.
If the constal was given an ordered to promoted the orion by a superior officer is the constal disobeying an overswords order? Would that oversword not be looking for him to be arrested for disobeying him? it looks like the green dragon is been targeted for spreading rumours and turning into something more while the constal breaks rules and disregards orders without any recourse?
How to rule on this and for your own stake close it down ASAP as PC’s fighting between themselves isn’t fun for a DM.

Dauneth Marliir and if you to involve Caladnei main concern is if the green dragon is loyal to the king and not spying for or helping the enemy.
These would be two simple questions to answer under zone of truth or discern lie, see would the green dragon agree to that.
If he passes these question case close and punishment for wasting the lord high marshals time as rules were broken too
If he fails them jail him and start rolling dice for a new character.
Other than that, the other course of action is:
Weight up who has broken more rules and laws.
Is there evidence to support either party?
Do any of the PC’s have allies or enemies (npc’s) to help in the outcome.?
This gets more like a case of law and order #128522;
well i don't know if this helps but its just an opinion

the simple answer is generally the best answer.
instead of a long essay i typed out
I think that last part would be the easiest. is the green dragon loyal to the crown and is he working with the enemy?
if he loyal to the king and has not worked with the enemy when get back to duty as that will be one very angry high lord marshal. someone will have to be punishment so this doesn't again. as it will cause suspicion and distrust in the ranks

Edited by - roninshadow on 21 Feb 2019 20:31:58
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